Date   

Re: NVDA Settings Documentation

Gene
 

There is no truncating. I worked with the feature in JAWS years ago. I don't remember the line length in JAWS, if it was the same, longer or shorter than in NVDA, both using default settings. The point of it is that the MSAA buffer needs to have a line length set. the underlying page has none and the line length is determined by how much will fit on the screen being used unless the page designer has placed line codes on the page, which they usually don't. So you can set the length of a line you hear when you up and down arrow on a page.

If I am looking for something on a page and I want to be able to move quickly from line to line listening to a bit and then moving on, I may want shorter lines than the default so I can quickly move by line and when I'm close to what I'm looking for, slow down. If lines are too long, I may miss what I'm looking for because it may be near the ende of a long line and I may move down before hearing it.

Others may have other uses. That is the use I made of the feature. I set the line length to be shorter and left it there so I could move quickly from line to line and not have too much on a line to prevent easy skimming.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 6:45 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Settings Documentation

Quentin,

Here's some input in the form of questions.

What constitutes a line?

Does the maximum number of characters result in truncation and, if so, under what reading conditions? (I can't imagine this setting affects read all behavior, for instance).

If a line (after defined) is longer than that maximum, what happens when that occurs during browse mode?

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

~ Kelley Boorn


Re: NVDA Settings Documentation

Gene
 

It might be a good idea to add that when moving by line in a web page looking for something, the user might want to make the lines shorter so that you don't have to listen to long lines of text to make sure you haven't missed the information when you move to another line.

-----Original Message-----
From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 6:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Settings Documentation


I think having the maximum number of characters per line setting described where it is in the browse mode settings section is fine - where the previous section 6 covers Browse mode in general, the settings section covers how to change the behaviour of different aspects. So for that setting particularly, currently the user guide simply offers:

"Maximum Number of Characters on One Line
This field sets the maximum length of a line in browse mode (in characters)."

I guess when working out where best to add information, what would you suggest needs adding? That seems to describe the feature to me, but maybe I am too familiar with it to see what is missing?

If anything more was needed on that, I'd be inclined to consider covering it in more depth in the "Basic Training for NVDA" module moreso than the user guide.


On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 8:14 PM Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
I haven't looked at the user guide a lot. However, I found yesterday,
regarding the line length documentation this:
12.1.14. Browse Mode (NVDA+control+b)
The Browse Mode category in the NVDA Settings dialog is used to configure
NVDA's behaviour when you read and navigate complex documents such as web
pages. This category contains the following options:
Maximum Number of Characters on One Line
This field sets the maximum length of a line in browse mode (in characters).

That's true but how many people would understand where it might be useful?
I found the same feature useful in JAWS years ago becaused when I moved from
line to line manually, the lines as displayed were too long to find
something conveniently. I wanted lines shorter so I could skim by line much
faster and more efficiently.

There are two things that come to mind:
When browse mode is discussed earlier, should the section that shows the
settings with explanation be referenced as a further information or see
also, or for settings, see or something of the sort? Also, is this section
and some other parts of the user guide intended for those who already have
an idea of how such settings might be used in general or for a more advanced
user who may either understand the information or play around and see what
the effect is of settings information that isn't clear.

Manuals, in my experience are usually concise and I think that is one reason
tutorials are so much more popular. But the degree of concision may be
opened to useful discussion.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 4:01 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Settings Documentation


Hi everyone,

Lots of good points here. So firstly, from a very simplistic view - if
there are any settings which experienced people such as yourselves can't get
an explanation of from the User Guide, then that's definitely something we
should address. Please either let me know (or file a GitHub issue) as you
find examples.

Re the user guide being too thick and heavy for new users to get start
with - that's largely because that's not who it is really aimed at. For a
lot of users, the Basic Training for NVDA would be the best place to start.
There is potentially a gap for a short "quick start" guide, and I'd be happy
to explore that further with anyone who has ideas on the subject.

Joseph, re some sort of training for new contributors - that too is a great
idea, and I'd be happy to work further with you on it.

I've made a note to follow all of this up (since it's into the evening here
and I'm trying to figure out book week costumes while getting the kids to
bed).


On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 10:44 AM Robert Doc Wright godfearer
<godfearer@comcast.net> wrote:

Where I need direction on what I need to study in order to be a tech writer
for NVDA. I believe that once I understand something I can teach it to
anyone. My stumbling block is that I have had some programming classes but
that was twenty years ago. I taught myself basic web design from a book.
What do I need to know to be of help where the users guide is concerned?
******
Jesus says, follow me and I'll help you through the rough spots.
the world says, hey come with me. My way is broad and easy. So what if you
get crap on your shoes. You can always wash it off, can't you!


Family times where there is fun for every ear!
http://stream.wrighthere.net:8000/stream.mp3

Or ask your A device to play Family times on tuneIn
You can also find us on your mobile device install OoTunes and search for
Family times
----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2020 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Settings Documentation


Hi,

Agreed (that’s one of the reasons why I comment a lot in my add-on source
code).

One holiday wish I have (possibly a long-term wish) is to help folks get
started on revamping the NVDA community documentation. At least this can
include add-on user guides, but I foresee a day where the screen reader user
guide would not escape this rewrite in hopes of making it more relevant for
users. I would go so far as ask NVDA code contributors to add extensive
documentation in source code itself – it is now possible to do it easily
with help from a module called Sphinx, a source code based documentation
generator. There are major issues to consider, however:

Who is the target audience: thinking about this changes the game, as it will
dictate tone, style, word usage, and organization of the document and
supplemental materials.
Mindset of code contributors: are we just software developers or technical
authors? Some people would argue that developers should focus on programming
and testing, leaving the task of documenting what developers wrote to
technical authors, and this separation of concerns may foster better
communication amongst team members. On the other hand, by forcing developers
to become technical authors, they can make crucial decisions about the
user-visible aspects of a given product a bit early.
How can we show we accept diversity in terms of culture, language, skill
level, and other factors: although the community documentation was written
by NV Access people at first, it is increasingly written by people from
diverse backgrounds in terms of culture, language, skill level, and other
factors (although I did receive training on technical communication and
software development, I’m not a native English speaker). This is more so for
parts that are written by people who may have different interpretation about
a UI message or concepts, more so if the author’s native language is not
English (the reverse is true for translators as they need to grasp concepts
written in English in their native languages).



My responses to the above questions are:

Who is the target audience: it varies. For NVDA user guide, it is users with
differing skill levels. For add-on guides, they target end users. For this
reason, whenever I edit the NVDA user guide or add-on guides, I think about
what users expect and NVDA’s response. This changes if we’re dealing with a
document meant for developers (such as add-on internals and such).
Mindset of code contributors: I believe that, as much as programming skills
is important, willingness to communicate with audiences (users, other
contributors, industry experts, etc.) is also important. One way to practice
both is thinking and writing to and about users, therefore I tend to fall
into a bit of the latter category from above: programming is, in one way or
another, writing. Python is just one of the more specialized languages used
to communicate with another entity (the machine), and if one can teach a
computer to do something (along with fixing mistakes), it would be possible
to train developers to respect users more by writing good documentation (of
course someone may need to look at the documentation for style and such). My
philosophy partly stems from my experiences as a former computer science
major at a college I attended (different from the one I’m about to graduate
from): my first computer science professor stressed the importance of source
code comments and documentation, and I still practice this lesson today,
which fuels my overall frustration with the current state of NVDA user guide
and source code documentation in general. I think one exercise code
contributors can do before submitting anything to GitHub (specifically,
pull; requests) is writing an early user facing documentation, because doing
so helps you improve your writing skills and think carefully about the
impact of your changes when users meet them (I sometimes find myself
struggling for minutes to hours over UI messages and documentation for this
reason; I know what my code will do, but I hit a roadblock when explaining
what I’ve done to would-be users before actually writing code).
How can we show we are a group of people coming from diverse backgrounds: I
think this goal was somewhat achieved when we look at recent NVDA work –
many new features and bug fixes included in NVDA 2020.3 were written by
someone other than an NV Access staff member, from people living in
different countries and speaking many languages. But I know that we can
improve on that somehow.



Another wish I have, mostly for Quentin: can we develop some sort of a
training program for would-be contributors wishing to improve the overall
NVDA community documentation, including the user guide? It may include
basics on technical writing, tone and style, audience analysis, exercises
where coding and documentation should be done together, and documentation
production in a variety of formats (including online media). I think this
may help us dive deeper into user guide issues being brought up, including
the guide being “too thick” for newbies (in terms of understanding, lack of
solid examples, and friendliness), especially for preferences chapter.

Cheers,

Joseph









From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2020 11:56 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Settings Documentation





Joseph,

While I applaud your efforts, and tutorials are invaluable, I
wasn't even going that far. I'm talking basic documentation, where each
item in a panel/pane/settings group in a given pane are briefly documented.
There are myriad NVDA settings that, if their actual function is not
directly obvious, which is the case, for example, with most checkboxes, then
they're a black hole.

Even I will admit that for all software it is a limited number
of end users who refer to this sort of thing. That being said, some do, and
it serves as a very important basis for new developers to develop depth of
knowledge of "what's in there and what it's for."

I was just commenting to someone for whom I've done custom VBA
scripting for Outlook that I am eternally grateful to myself for having
developed the habit of rigorously commenting my code, at a bare minimum, as
even I would have no idea what some of what I've written actually does when
looking at it much later. Complex stuff doesn't remain in "off the top of
my head" mode (for most "mes") as time moves on. That's one of the reasons
that basic documentation is so important.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

~ Kelley Boorn

















--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Web: www.nvaccess.org
Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/
User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess











--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Web: www.nvaccess.org
Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/
User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess


Re: NVDA Settings Documentation

 

Quentin,

         Here's some input in the form of questions.

         What constitutes a line?

          Does the maximum number of characters result in truncation and, if so, under what reading conditions?  (I can't imagine this setting affects read all behavior, for instance).

          If a line (after defined) is longer than that maximum, what happens when that occurs during browse mode?

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 


Re: NVDA Settings Documentation

Quentin Christensen
 

I think having the maximum number of characters per line setting described where it is in the browse mode settings section is fine  - where the previous section 6 covers Browse mode in general, the settings section covers how to change the behaviour of different aspects.  So for that setting particularly, currently the user guide simply offers:

"Maximum Number of Characters on One Line
This field sets the maximum length of a line in browse mode (in characters)."

I guess when working out where best to add information, what would you suggest needs adding?  That seems to describe the feature to me, but maybe I am too familiar with it to see what is missing?

If anything more was needed on that, I'd be inclined to consider covering it in more depth in the "Basic Training for NVDA" module moreso than the user guide.

On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 8:14 PM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I haven't looked at the user guide a lot.  However, I found yesterday,
regarding the line length documentation this:
12.1.14. Browse Mode (NVDA+control+b)
The Browse Mode category in the NVDA Settings dialog is used to configure
NVDA's behaviour when you read and navigate complex documents such as web
pages. This category contains the following options:
Maximum Number of Characters on One Line
This field sets the maximum length of a line in browse mode (in characters).

That's true but how many people would understand where it might be useful?
I found the same feature useful in JAWS years ago becaused when I moved from
line to line manually, the lines as displayed were too long to find
something conveniently.  I wanted lines shorter so I could skim by line much
faster and more efficiently.

There are two things that come to mind:
When browse mode is discussed earlier, should the section that shows the
settings with explanation be referenced as a further information or see
also, or for settings, see or something of the sort?  Also, is this section
and some other parts of the user guide intended for those who already have
an idea of how such settings might be used in general or for a more advanced
user who may either understand the information or play around and see what
the effect is of settings information that isn't clear.

Manuals, in my experience are usually concise and I think that is one reason
tutorials are so much more popular.   But the degree of concision may be
opened to useful discussion.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 4:01 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Settings Documentation


Hi everyone,

Lots of good points here.  So firstly, from a very simplistic view - if
there are any settings which experienced people such as yourselves can't get
an explanation of from the User Guide, then that's definitely something we
should address.  Please either let me know (or file a GitHub issue) as you
find examples.

Re the user guide being too thick and heavy for new users to get start
with - that's largely because that's not who it is really aimed at.  For a
lot of users, the Basic Training for NVDA would be the best place to start.
There is potentially a gap for a short "quick start" guide, and I'd be happy
to explore that further with anyone who has ideas on the subject.

Joseph, re some sort of training for new contributors - that too is a great
idea, and I'd be happy to work further with you on it.

I've made a note to follow all of this up (since it's into the evening here
and I'm trying to figure out book week costumes while getting the kids to
bed).


On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 10:44 AM Robert Doc Wright godfearer
<godfearer@...> wrote:

Where I need direction on what I need to study in order to be a tech writer
for NVDA. I believe that once I understand something I can teach it to
anyone. My stumbling block is that I have had some programming classes but
that was twenty years ago. I taught myself basic web design from a book.
What do I need to know to be of help where the users guide is concerned?
******
Jesus says, follow me and I'll help you through the rough spots.
the world says, hey come with me. My way is broad and easy. So what if you
get crap on your shoes. You can always wash it off, can't you!


Family times where there is fun for every ear!
http://stream.wrighthere.net:8000/stream.mp3

Or ask your A device to play Family times on tuneIn
You can also find us on your mobile device install OoTunes and search for
Family times
----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2020 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Settings Documentation


Hi,

Agreed (that’s one of the reasons why I comment a lot in my add-on source
code).

One holiday wish I have (possibly a long-term wish) is to help folks get
started on revamping the NVDA community documentation. At least this can
include add-on user guides, but I foresee a day where the screen reader user
guide would not escape this rewrite in hopes of making it more relevant for
users. I would go so far as ask NVDA code contributors to add extensive
documentation in source code itself – it is now possible to do it easily
with help from a module called Sphinx, a source code based documentation
generator. There are major issues to consider, however:

Who is the target audience: thinking about this changes the game, as it will
dictate tone, style, word usage, and organization of the document and
supplemental materials.
Mindset of code contributors: are we just software developers or technical
authors? Some people would argue that developers should focus on programming
and testing, leaving the task of documenting what developers wrote to
technical authors, and this separation of concerns may foster better
communication amongst team members. On the other hand, by forcing developers
to become technical authors, they can make crucial decisions about the
user-visible aspects of a given product a bit early.
How can we show we accept diversity in terms of culture, language, skill
level, and other factors: although the community documentation was written
by NV Access people at first, it is increasingly written by people from
diverse backgrounds in terms of culture, language, skill level, and other
factors (although I did receive training on technical communication and
software development, I’m not a native English speaker). This is more so for
parts that are written by people who may have different interpretation about
a UI message or concepts, more so if the author’s native language is not
English (the reverse is true for translators as they need to grasp concepts
written in English in their native languages).



My responses to the above questions are:

Who is the target audience: it varies. For NVDA user guide, it is users with
differing skill levels. For add-on guides, they target end users. For this
reason, whenever I edit the NVDA user guide or add-on guides, I think about
what users expect and NVDA’s response. This changes if we’re dealing with a
document meant for developers (such as add-on internals and such).
Mindset of code contributors: I believe that, as much as programming skills
is important, willingness to communicate with audiences (users, other
contributors, industry experts, etc.) is also important. One way to practice
both is thinking and writing to and about users, therefore I tend to fall
into a bit of the latter category from above: programming is, in one way or
another, writing. Python is just one of the more specialized languages used
to communicate with another entity (the machine), and if one can teach a
computer to do something (along with fixing mistakes), it would be possible
to train developers to respect users more by writing good documentation (of
course someone may need to look at the documentation for style and such). My
philosophy partly stems from my experiences as a former computer science
major at a college I attended (different from the one I’m about to graduate
from): my first computer science professor stressed the importance of source
code comments and documentation, and I still practice this lesson today,
which fuels my overall frustration with the current state of NVDA user guide
and source code documentation in general. I think one exercise code
contributors can do before submitting anything to GitHub (specifically,
pull; requests) is writing an early user facing documentation, because doing
so helps you improve your writing skills and think carefully about the
impact of your changes when users meet them (I sometimes find myself
struggling for minutes to hours over UI messages and documentation for this
reason; I know what my code will do, but I hit a roadblock when explaining
what I’ve done to would-be users before actually writing code).
How can we show we are a group of people coming from diverse backgrounds: I
think this goal was somewhat achieved when we look at recent NVDA work –
many new features and bug fixes included in NVDA 2020.3 were written by
someone other than an NV Access staff member, from people living in
different countries and speaking many languages. But I know that we can
improve on that somehow.



Another wish I have, mostly for Quentin: can we develop some sort of a
training program for would-be contributors wishing to improve the overall
NVDA community documentation, including the user guide? It may include
basics on technical writing, tone and style, audience analysis, exercises
where coding and documentation should be done together, and documentation
production in a variety of formats (including online media). I think this
may help us dive deeper into user guide issues being brought up, including
the guide being “too thick” for newbies (in terms of understanding, lack of
solid examples, and friendliness), especially for preferences chapter.

Cheers,

Joseph









From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2020 11:56 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Settings Documentation





Joseph,

           While I applaud your efforts, and tutorials are invaluable, I
wasn't even going that far.  I'm talking basic documentation, where each
item in a panel/pane/settings group in a given pane are briefly documented.
There are myriad NVDA settings that, if their actual function is not
directly obvious, which is the case, for example, with most checkboxes, then
they're a black hole.

            Even I will admit that for all software it is a limited number
of end users who refer to this sort of thing.  That being said, some do, and
it serves as a very important basis for new developers to develop depth of
knowledge of "what's in there and what it's for."

             I was just commenting to someone for whom I've done custom VBA
scripting for Outlook that I am eternally grateful to myself for having
developed the habit of rigorously commenting my code, at a bare minimum, as
even I would have no idea what some of what I've written actually does when
looking at it much later.  Complex stuff doesn't remain in "off the top of
my head" mode (for most "mes") as time moves on.  That's one of the reasons
that basic documentation is so important.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

















--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Web: www.nvaccess.org
Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/
User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess









--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Re: my friend's problem is solved for now

Arlene
 

You can do this always the same as you did in earlier versions of windows. You have to go to windows E to get to the C drive. When you do scan disk error. Your choice of Screen reader will tell you if you have errors or not. If you don’t you can scan anyway. In the older versions of windows it did not tell you.  I don’t know if you restart your computer or not. You probably would if you have errors. 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: October 19, 2020 9:30 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] my friend's problem is solved for now

 

Hi, Arleen,

 

I think I remember fixing a drive in windows XP one time. I don't know how it's done in the latest version of windows 10 but it can't betoo much different.

 

Rosemarie

 

On 10/19/2020 9:26 AM, Arlene wrote:

Rose, I don’t know about this. But in older versions of windows. You can do a scandisk fix and  what that did was fix anything that had become corrupt over time. You go to the control panel and find your c drive. You didn’t enter on it. You did alt enter. There, you check what you need scandisk fix your corrupt files and drives. Then you had to restart your computer and it took maybe an hour or depending on how big your computer hard drive is.  I’ve done this in xp and 7. In the present time  in my  case I’d have to go to This pc and there I find my c drive. I wonder if that’s the same way or is there something different in fixing your drives?  I hope this makes scence.   

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: October 19, 2020 9:20 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] my friend's problem is solved for now

 

Hi, Orlando,

 

 

You're absolutely right. I told her she needs to start learning to do

some of these things for herself. I can't be holding her hand 24/7 when

it comes to computers. Part of the problem is that when we blindies go

for computer training, we get very poor training. I taught myself pretty

much everything I know how to do because of tutorials andbeing on great

lists like this one. I'm glad I'm not a computer instructor because I

wouldn't tolerate a person saying things like "I don't know how to do

xxxx". There's no excuse for laziness. I tried to get my friend to join

different tech lists but she refuses to do so. I won't say anything more

because it may sound like I'm judging her.

 

 

Rosemarie

 

 

 

On 10/19/2020 9:09 AM, Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io wrote:

> At 01:44 PM 10/17/2020, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:

> >She'll have to use narrator but she doesn't know how to check for drive

> >damage.

> There's no nice way to say this; she needs to learn. Checking for hard

> drive corruption is easy and accessible, either through thee Tools 

> tab under her hard drive's properties, or using the command "choked

> /f  C:," where C: is the letter of the drive to be checked. The

> slash+F switch tells Windows to fix any scandisk errors it finds.

> She can use the Optimize Drive option on her drive's properties, which

> will check and defragment her disk.

> No one would get behind a steering wheel without knowing how to use

> the brakes. No one would try to use a microwave for the first time

> without becoming acquainted with the panel layout and each button's

> function. Yet, too many people, especially we "blindies," refuse to

> learn enough about computers to keep them working and resolve urgent

> problems,  preferring to leave all these matters in the hands of often

> unscrupulous technicians who may overcharge, keep computers longer

> than necessary or live too far away to be practical.

> All these circumstances demonstrate our need to become acquainted with

> everything software-related that is accessible to use. Simply saying

> we don't know how doesn't cut it anymore. we need to learn.

> As an example, for years, I've been dissatisfied with my laptop's

> internal speakers, which I use exclusively for speech. The sub woofer

> never seemed to work, or only worked intermittently. The wonderful

> application Equalizer APO helped somewhat in this regard, but not

> enough. I un installed and reinstalled the Realtek drivers, trying out

> different official and unofficial versions, some of which worked

> better than others.

> I learned the registry syntaxes of the Realtek and Nahimic keys,, but

> editing the values seemed to do little good.

> Finally, I learned about MN Devices, a section of the Windows registry

> where the properties for each hardware device are laid out in great

> detail. There, I found my Realtek  devices:: speakers, headphones,

> mic,digital out, etc. Under the Rendering category, I looked for any

> values between 100 and 500, since I needed to change the cutoff

> frequency to reengage the missing subwoofer. There are three such

> settings. Once, I changed them to a value of 50 hz, everything worked

> as I always wanted.

> Would the average tech have taken time, even for a fee, to hunt down

> this solution? Probably not.

> Orlando Enrique Fiol

> Charlotte, North Carolina

> Professional Pianist/Keyboardist, Percussionist and Pedagogue

> Ph.D. in Music theory

> University of Pennsylvania: November, 2018

>

 

 

 

 

 

 


Re: my friend's problem is solved for now

Arlene
 

No, it isn’t. You don’t need Narrator to do this. All you need to do is this. In my case, I go to this pc. Then I arrow until I get to my C drive. Don’t enter on it. I mean, DO NOT HIT ENTER! You do alt enter you end up on properties.  You shift tab until you get to tools. There you find what you need to do. I don’t know in anybody else’s case. But where ever your C drive is. Like I say. Do not enter on it. You do alt enter.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: October 19, 2020 9:30 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] my friend's problem is solved for now

 

Hi, Arleen,

 

I think I remember fixing a drive in windows XP one time. I don't know how it's done in the latest version of windows 10 but it can't betoo much different.

 

Rosemarie

 

On 10/19/2020 9:26 AM, Arlene wrote:

Rose, I don’t know about this. But in older versions of windows. You can do a scandisk fix and  what that did was fix anything that had become corrupt over time. You go to the control panel and find your c drive. You didn’t enter on it. You did alt enter. There, you check what you need scandisk fix your corrupt files and drives. Then you had to restart your computer and it took maybe an hour or depending on how big your computer hard drive is.  I’ve done this in xp and 7. In the present time  in my  case I’d have to go to This pc and there I find my c drive. I wonder if that’s the same way or is there something different in fixing your drives?  I hope this makes scence.   

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: October 19, 2020 9:20 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] my friend's problem is solved for now

 

Hi, Orlando,

 

 

You're absolutely right. I told her she needs to start learning to do

some of these things for herself. I can't be holding her hand 24/7 when

it comes to computers. Part of the problem is that when we blindies go

for computer training, we get very poor training. I taught myself pretty

much everything I know how to do because of tutorials andbeing on great

lists like this one. I'm glad I'm not a computer instructor because I

wouldn't tolerate a person saying things like "I don't know how to do

xxxx". There's no excuse for laziness. I tried to get my friend to join

different tech lists but she refuses to do so. I won't say anything more

because it may sound like I'm judging her.

 

 

Rosemarie

 

 

 

On 10/19/2020 9:09 AM, Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io wrote:

> At 01:44 PM 10/17/2020, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:

> >She'll have to use narrator but she doesn't know how to check for drive

> >damage.

> There's no nice way to say this; she needs to learn. Checking for hard

> drive corruption is easy and accessible, either through thee Tools 

> tab under her hard drive's properties, or using the command "choked

> /f  C:," where C: is the letter of the drive to be checked. The

> slash+F switch tells Windows to fix any scandisk errors it finds.

> She can use the Optimize Drive option on her drive's properties, which

> will check and defragment her disk.

> No one would get behind a steering wheel without knowing how to use

> the brakes. No one would try to use a microwave for the first time

> without becoming acquainted with the panel layout and each button's

> function. Yet, too many people, especially we "blindies," refuse to

> learn enough about computers to keep them working and resolve urgent

> problems,  preferring to leave all these matters in the hands of often

> unscrupulous technicians who may overcharge, keep computers longer

> than necessary or live too far away to be practical.

> All these circumstances demonstrate our need to become acquainted with

> everything software-related that is accessible to use. Simply saying

> we don't know how doesn't cut it anymore. we need to learn.

> As an example, for years, I've been dissatisfied with my laptop's

> internal speakers, which I use exclusively for speech. The sub woofer

> never seemed to work, or only worked intermittently. The wonderful

> application Equalizer APO helped somewhat in this regard, but not

> enough. I un installed and reinstalled the Realtek drivers, trying out

> different official and unofficial versions, some of which worked

> better than others.

> I learned the registry syntaxes of the Realtek and Nahimic keys,, but

> editing the values seemed to do little good.

> Finally, I learned about MN Devices, a section of the Windows registry

> where the properties for each hardware device are laid out in great

> detail. There, I found my Realtek  devices:: speakers, headphones,

> mic,digital out, etc. Under the Rendering category, I looked for any

> values between 100 and 500, since I needed to change the cutoff

> frequency to reengage the missing subwoofer. There are three such

> settings. Once, I changed them to a value of 50 hz, everything worked

> as I always wanted.

> Would the average tech have taken time, even for a fee, to hunt down

> this solution? Probably not.

> Orlando Enrique Fiol

> Charlotte, North Carolina

> Professional Pianist/Keyboardist, Percussionist and Pedagogue

> Ph.D. in Music theory

> University of Pennsylvania: November, 2018

>

 

 

 

 

 

 


Re: my friend's problem is solved for now

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Arleen,


I think I remember fixing a drive in windows XP one time. I don't know how it's done in the latest version of windows 10 but it can't betoo much different.


Rosemarie


On 10/19/2020 9:26 AM, Arlene wrote:

Rose, I don’t know about this. But in older versions of windows. You can do a scandisk fix and  what that did was fix anything that had become corrupt over time. You go to the control panel and find your c drive. You didn’t enter on it. You did alt enter. There, you check what you need scandisk fix your corrupt files and drives. Then you had to restart your computer and it took maybe an hour or depending on how big your computer hard drive is.  I’ve done this in xp and 7. In the present time  in my  case I’d have to go to This pc and there I find my c drive. I wonder if that’s the same way or is there something different in fixing your drives?  I hope this makes scence.   

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: October 19, 2020 9:20 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] my friend's problem is solved for now

 

Hi, Orlando,

 

 

You're absolutely right. I told her she needs to start learning to do

some of these things for herself. I can't be holding her hand 24/7 when

it comes to computers. Part of the problem is that when we blindies go

for computer training, we get very poor training. I taught myself pretty

much everything I know how to do because of tutorials andbeing on great

lists like this one. I'm glad I'm not a computer instructor because I

wouldn't tolerate a person saying things like "I don't know how to do

xxxx". There's no excuse for laziness. I tried to get my friend to join

different tech lists but she refuses to do so. I won't say anything more

because it may sound like I'm judging her.

 

 

Rosemarie

 

 

 

On 10/19/2020 9:09 AM, Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io wrote:

> At 01:44 PM 10/17/2020, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:

> >She'll have to use narrator but she doesn't know how to check for drive

> >damage.

> There's no nice way to say this; she needs to learn. Checking for hard

> drive corruption is easy and accessible, either through thee Tools 

> tab under her hard drive's properties, or using the command "choked

> /f  C:," where C: is the letter of the drive to be checked. The

> slash+F switch tells Windows to fix any scandisk errors it finds.

> She can use the Optimize Drive option on her drive's properties, which

> will check and defragment her disk.

> No one would get behind a steering wheel without knowing how to use

> the brakes. No one would try to use a microwave for the first time

> without becoming acquainted with the panel layout and each button's

> function. Yet, too many people, especially we "blindies," refuse to

> learn enough about computers to keep them working and resolve urgent

> problems,  preferring to leave all these matters in the hands of often

> unscrupulous technicians who may overcharge, keep computers longer

> than necessary or live too far away to be practical.

> All these circumstances demonstrate our need to become acquainted with

> everything software-related that is accessible to use. Simply saying

> we don't know how doesn't cut it anymore. we need to learn.

> As an example, for years, I've been dissatisfied with my laptop's

> internal speakers, which I use exclusively for speech. The sub woofer

> never seemed to work, or only worked intermittently. The wonderful

> application Equalizer APO helped somewhat in this regard, but not

> enough. I un installed and reinstalled the Realtek drivers, trying out

> different official and unofficial versions, some of which worked

> better than others.

> I learned the registry syntaxes of the Realtek and Nahimic keys,, but

> editing the values seemed to do little good.

> Finally, I learned about MN Devices, a section of the Windows registry

> where the properties for each hardware device are laid out in great

> detail. There, I found my Realtek  devices:: speakers, headphones,

> mic,digital out, etc. Under the Rendering category, I looked for any

> values between 100 and 500, since I needed to change the cutoff

> frequency to reengage the missing subwoofer. There are three such

> settings. Once, I changed them to a value of 50 hz, everything worked

> as I always wanted.

> Would the average tech have taken time, even for a fee, to hunt down

> this solution? Probably not.

> Orlando Enrique Fiol

> Charlotte, North Carolina

> Professional Pianist/Keyboardist, Percussionist and Pedagogue

> Ph.D. in Music theory

> University of Pennsylvania: November, 2018

>

 

 

 

 

 


Re: my friend's problem is solved for now

Arlene
 

Rose, I don’t know about this. But in older versions of windows. You can do a scandisk fix and  what that did was fix anything that had become corrupt over time. You go to the control panel and find your c drive. You didn’t enter on it. You did alt enter. There, you check what you need scandisk fix your corrupt files and drives. Then you had to restart your computer and it took maybe an hour or depending on how big your computer hard drive is.  I’ve done this in xp and 7. In the present time  in my  case I’d have to go to This pc and there I find my c drive. I wonder if that’s the same way or is there something different in fixing your drives?  I hope this makes scence.   

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: October 19, 2020 9:20 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] my friend's problem is solved for now

 

Hi, Orlando,

 

 

You're absolutely right. I told her she needs to start learning to do

some of these things for herself. I can't be holding her hand 24/7 when

it comes to computers. Part of the problem is that when we blindies go

for computer training, we get very poor training. I taught myself pretty

much everything I know how to do because of tutorials andbeing on great

lists like this one. I'm glad I'm not a computer instructor because I

wouldn't tolerate a person saying things like "I don't know how to do

xxxx". There's no excuse for laziness. I tried to get my friend to join

different tech lists but she refuses to do so. I won't say anything more

because it may sound like I'm judging her.

 

 

Rosemarie

 

 

 

On 10/19/2020 9:09 AM, Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io wrote:

> At 01:44 PM 10/17/2020, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:

> >She'll have to use narrator but she doesn't know how to check for drive

> >damage.

> There's no nice way to say this; she needs to learn. Checking for hard

> drive corruption is easy and accessible, either through thee Tools 

> tab under her hard drive's properties, or using the command "choked

> /f  C:," where C: is the letter of the drive to be checked. The

> slash+F switch tells Windows to fix any scandisk errors it finds.

> She can use the Optimize Drive option on her drive's properties, which

> will check and defragment her disk.

> No one would get behind a steering wheel without knowing how to use

> the brakes. No one would try to use a microwave for the first time

> without becoming acquainted with the panel layout and each button's

> function. Yet, too many people, especially we "blindies," refuse to

> learn enough about computers to keep them working and resolve urgent

> problems,  preferring to leave all these matters in the hands of often

> unscrupulous technicians who may overcharge, keep computers longer

> than necessary or live too far away to be practical.

> All these circumstances demonstrate our need to become acquainted with

> everything software-related that is accessible to use. Simply saying

> we don't know how doesn't cut it anymore. we need to learn.

> As an example, for years, I've been dissatisfied with my laptop's

> internal speakers, which I use exclusively for speech. The sub woofer

> never seemed to work, or only worked intermittently. The wonderful

> application Equalizer APO helped somewhat in this regard, but not

> enough. I un installed and reinstalled the Realtek drivers, trying out

> different official and unofficial versions, some of which worked

> better than others.

> I learned the registry syntaxes of the Realtek and Nahimic keys,, but

> editing the values seemed to do little good.

> Finally, I learned about MN Devices, a section of the Windows registry

> where the properties for each hardware device are laid out in great

> detail. There, I found my Realtek  devices:: speakers, headphones,

> mic,digital out, etc. Under the Rendering category, I looked for any

> values between 100 and 500, since I needed to change the cutoff

> frequency to reengage the missing subwoofer. There are three such

> settings. Once, I changed them to a value of 50 hz, everything worked

> as I always wanted.

> Would the average tech have taken time, even for a fee, to hunt down

> this solution? Probably not.

> Orlando Enrique Fiol

> Charlotte, North Carolina

> Professional Pianist/Keyboardist, Percussionist and Pedagogue

> Ph.D. in Music theory

> University of Pennsylvania: November, 2018

>

 

 

 

 

 


Re: my friend's problem is solved for now

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Orlando,


You're absolutely right. I told her she needs to start learning to do some of these things for herself. I can't be holding her hand 24/7 when it comes to computers. Part of the problem is that when we blindies go for computer training, we get very poor training. I taught myself pretty much everything I know how to do because of tutorials andbeing on great lists like this one. I'm glad I'm not a computer instructor because I wouldn't tolerate a person saying things like "I don't know how to do xxxx". There's no excuse for laziness. I tried to get my friend to join different tech lists but she refuses to do so. I won't say anything more because it may sound like I'm judging her.


Rosemarie

On 10/19/2020 9:09 AM, Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io wrote:
At 01:44 PM 10/17/2020, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
She'll have to use narrator but she doesn't know how to check for drive
damage.
There's no nice way to say this; she needs to learn. Checking for hard drive corruption is easy and accessible, either through thee Tools  tab under her hard drive's properties, or using the command "choked /f  C:," where C: is the letter of the drive to be checked. The slash+F switch tells Windows to fix any scandisk errors it finds.
She can use the Optimize Drive option on her drive's properties, which will check and defragment her disk.


No one would get behind a steering wheel without knowing how to use the brakes. No one would try to use a microwave for the first time without becoming acquainted with the panel layout and each button's function. Yet, too many people, especially we "blindies," refuse to learn enough about computers to keep them working and resolve urgent problems,  preferring to leave all these matters in the hands of often unscrupulous technicians who may overcharge, keep computers longer than necessary or live too far away to be practical.
All these circumstances demonstrate our need to become acquainted with everything software-related that is accessible to use. Simply saying we don't know how doesn't cut it anymore. we need to learn.

As an example, for years, I've been dissatisfied with my laptop's internal speakers, which I use exclusively for speech. The sub woofer never seemed to work, or only worked intermittently. The wonderful application Equalizer APO helped somewhat in this regard, but not enough. I un installed and reinstalled the Realtek drivers, trying out different official and unofficial versions, some of which worked better than others.

I learned the registry syntaxes of the Realtek and Nahimic keys,, but editing the values seemed to do little good.
Finally, I learned about MN Devices, a section of the Windows registry where the properties for each hardware device are laid out in great detail. There, I found my Realtek  devices:: speakers, headphones, mic,digital out, etc. Under the Rendering category, I looked for any values between 100 and 500, since I needed to change the cutoff frequency to reengage the missing subwoofer. There are three such settings. Once, I changed them to a value of 50 hz, everything worked as I always wanted.
Would the average tech have taken time, even for a fee, to hunt down this solution? Probably not.
Orlando Enrique Fiol
Charlotte, North Carolina
Professional Pianist/Keyboardist, Percussionist and Pedagogue
Ph.D. in Music theory
University of Pennsylvania: November, 2018





Re: my friend's problem is solved for now

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 01:44 PM 10/17/2020, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
She'll have to use narrator but she doesn't know how to check for drive
damage.
There's no nice way to say this; she needs to learn. Checking for hard drive corruption is easy and accessible, either through thee Tools tab under her hard drive's properties, or using the command "choked /f C:," where C: is the letter of the drive to be checked. The slash+F switch tells Windows to fix any scandisk errors it finds.
She can use the Optimize Drive option on her drive's properties, which will check and defragment her disk.


No one would get behind a steering wheel without knowing how to use the brakes. No one would try to use a microwave for the first time without becoming acquainted with the panel layout and each button's function. Yet, too many people, especially we "blindies," refuse to learn enough about computers to keep them working and resolve urgent problems, preferring to leave all these matters in the hands of often unscrupulous technicians who may overcharge, keep computers longer than necessary or live too far away to be practical.
All these circumstances demonstrate our need to become acquainted with everything software-related that is accessible to use. Simply saying we don't know how doesn't cut it anymore. we need to learn.

As an example, for years, I've been dissatisfied with my laptop's internal speakers, which I use exclusively for speech. The sub woofer never seemed to work, or only worked intermittently. The wonderful application Equalizer APO helped somewhat in this regard, but not enough. I un installed and reinstalled the Realtek drivers, trying out different official and unofficial versions, some of which worked better than others.

I learned the registry syntaxes of the Realtek and Nahimic keys,, but editing the values seemed to do little good.
Finally, I learned about MN Devices, a section of the Windows registry where the properties for each hardware device are laid out in great detail. There, I found my Realtek devices:: speakers, headphones, mic,digital out, etc. Under the Rendering category, I looked for any values between 100 and 500, since I needed to change the cutoff frequency to reengage the missing subwoofer. There are three such settings. Once, I changed them to a value of 50 hz, everything worked as I always wanted.
Would the average tech have taken time, even for a fee, to hunt down this solution? Probably not.
Orlando Enrique Fiol
Charlotte, North Carolina
Professional Pianist/Keyboardist, Percussionist and Pedagogue
Ph.D. in Music theory
University of Pennsylvania: November, 2018


Re: Accessing cell content in Braille in Excel for Office 365

Brian Moore
 

Hi.  this is strange. Not having this problem with a braille display and a shared sheet shared through corporate one drive.  What display are you using?

Brian.

Contact me on skype: brian.moore
follow me on twitter:
http://www.twitter.com/bmoore123
On 10/19/2020 11:12 AM, Sylvie Duchateau wrote:

Hello all,

Using Office 365 for companies for some months now, I have encountered one problem accessing cell content in Braille.

When I want to edit a shared Excel file and write in a particular cell, opening it with F2, NVDA does not refresh the Braille display and I cannot correct typos with the braille display, only with the speech synthesiser.

I use last NVDA 2020.3 version with Office 365 for businesses.

Is it a known problem of NVDA or should I rather contact Microsoft?

Thank you for any experience some of you may have.

Best

Sylvie


Accessing cell content in Braille in Excel for Office 365

Sylvie Duchateau
 

Hello all,

Using Office 365 for companies for some months now, I have encountered one problem accessing cell content in Braille.

When I want to edit a shared Excel file and write in a particular cell, opening it with F2, NVDA does not refresh the Braille display and I cannot correct typos with the braille display, only with the speech synthesiser.

I use last NVDA 2020.3 version with Office 365 for businesses.

Is it a known problem of NVDA or should I rather contact Microsoft?

Thank you for any experience some of you may have.

Best

Sylvie


Re: control+f - The General Purpose Find Command in Windows

 

On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 09:27 AM, Gene wrote:
It doesn't exist in the user's guide because it is not intended to be used with NVDA.
-
It's not in the user's guide simply because it's not an NVDA command, period.  It is, as you've said, a given program's find/search command.  But I know of plenty of people who use CTRL+F with a screen reader depending on what it is that they're looking for.  If it's text (even click through link text) as opposed to a button, say, it can still be used effectively in certain contexts.

But I am definitely in agreement that the screen reader find is almost always preferable and will get you to certain things that a straight find will not.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 


Re: NVDA With Task Manager

Chris Smart
 

I just got an error trying that at the Windows 10 CLI:

"set invalid alias verb"


Please advise.


Chris

On 2020-10-19 4:55 a.m., Martin O'Sullivan wrote:
Well I have managed to resolve the problem.

I used the following command to give NVDA a Realtime priority on the system.

wmic process where name="nvda.exe" CALL set priority 256

NVDA is working faster than it ever did.

The reason I was using task manager is that NVDA was slow.

I also found out why NVDA was slow.  Looks like my company is running some sort of data processing screen saver in the background (World Community Grid) which is working on testing for bloody covid.  So, I am giving NVDA higher priority than a deadly virus.





Re: NVDA With Task Manager

Chris Smart
 

Hmm, will that work with the Shark product too I wonder? Now that one definitely lags!

On 2020-10-19 4:55 a.m., Martin O'Sullivan wrote:
Well I have managed to resolve the problem.

I used the following command to give NVDA a Realtime priority on the system.

wmic process where name="nvda.exe" CALL set priority 256

NVDA is working faster than it ever did.

The reason I was using task manager is that NVDA was slow.

I also found out why NVDA was slow.  Looks like my company is running some sort of data processing screen saver in the background (World Community Grid) which is working on testing for bloody covid.  So, I am giving NVDA higher priority than a deadly virus.





Re: control+f - The General Purpose Find Command in Windows

Gene
 

It doesn't exist in the user's guide because it is not intended to be used with NVDA. It is the program command, not the browse mode find command. The browser command searches the underlying page, the page displayed by the browser on screen. The browse mode command is the command which the screen-reader uses, searching the page in the browse mode buffer, which the screen-reader uses.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Doc Wright godfearer
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 8:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] control+f


Supposedly this key command performs a find in page. unfortunately, it does not exist in the users guide. using the command without the nvda key does not do anything useful.
******
Jesus says, follow me and I'll help you through the rough spots.
the world says, hey come with me. My way is broad and easy. So what if you get crap on your shoes. You can always wash it off, can't you!



Family times where there is fun for every ear!
http://stream.wrighthere.net:8000/stream.mp3

Or ask your A device to play Family times on tuneIn
You can also find us on your mobile device install OoTunes and search for Family times


control+f - The General Purpose Find Command in Windows

Robert Doc Wright godfearer
 

Supposedly this key command performs a find in page. unfortunately, it does not exist in the users guide. using the command without the nvda key does not do anything useful.
******
Jesus says, follow me and I'll help you through the rough spots.
the world says, hey come with me. My way is broad and easy. So what if you get crap on your shoes. You can always wash it off, can't you!
 

Family times where there is fun for every ear!
http://stream.wrighthere.net:8000/stream.mp3
 
Or ask your A device to play Family times on tuneIn
You can also find us on your mobile device install OoTunes and search for Family times


Re: NVDA With Task Manager

Martin O'Sullivan
 

It is my computer at work, I have disabled  the screen saver, as I am working from home. so, it works well now. 

Actually, it is like NVDA is on speed. 

 

To keep NVDA functioning over the last few weeks I tweaked every setting I could only found that the screen saver was processing data last Friday. so now with the screen saver disabled, and all the other tweaks NVDA runs very well.


Re: NVDA With Task Manager

 

Martin, with the computer you are working on is this your computer or is it just a computer you personally use at work.

If its not shared, I wander if you can ask your company to remove the screen reader, if not uninstall it completely at least have it not run on your account.

If its a system you usually use, can you ask the company to simply remove the reader saying it interfiers with the reader?

On a lot of systems I service weather family or for places I usually work with, in addition to all the accounts, I also have an admin account with a password.

This has everything including startup and such as little as possible.

This includes thirdparty security, chat and other software so at least I can work in this account without a problem.

Either that or ask the company to have the screen saver at a lower priority when you are using the system or the system is being used.

To be honest if this is a something you usually use and no one needs to access it then you should just disable the screen saver alltogether and use screen curtain.

I do not have any extras running on the system, bar the drivers needed to make it work.

On the workstations I do need to run 1drive, dropbox and google sync for the cloud storage as well as icloud but thats it.

Saying that I have people I maintain that insist on having various things like spotify, skype, and several other things they need active at startup running at once and yeah its a real pain to get about.

Thing is these data collection systems should be only running when the thing is not being used.



On 19/10/2020 9:55 pm, Martin O'Sullivan wrote:

Well I have managed to resolve the problem.

I used the following command to give NVDA a Realtime priority on the system.

wmic process where name="nvda.exe" CALL set priority 256

NVDA is working faster than it ever did.

The reason I was using task manager is that NVDA was slow.

I also found out why NVDA was slow.  Looks like my company is running some sort of data processing screen saver in the background (World Community Grid) which is working on testing for bloody covid.  So, I am giving NVDA higher priority than a deadly virus.


Re: NVDA Settings Documentation

Gene
 

I haven't looked at the user guide a lot. However, I found yesterday, regarding the line length documentation this:
12.1.14. Browse Mode (NVDA+control+b)
The Browse Mode category in the NVDA Settings dialog is used to configure NVDA's behaviour when you read and navigate complex documents such as web pages. This category contains the following options:
Maximum Number of Characters on One Line
This field sets the maximum length of a line in browse mode (in characters).

That's true but how many people would understand where it might be useful? I found the same feature useful in JAWS years ago becaused when I moved from line to line manually, the lines as displayed were too long to find something conveniently. I wanted lines shorter so I could skim by line much faster and more efficiently.

There are two things that come to mind:
When browse mode is discussed earlier, should the section that shows the settings with explanation be referenced as a further information or see also, or for settings, see or something of the sort? Also, is this section and some other parts of the user guide intended for those who already have an idea of how such settings might be used in general or for a more advanced user who may either understand the information or play around and see what the effect is of settings information that isn't clear.

Manuals, in my experience are usually concise and I think that is one reason tutorials are so much more popular. But the degree of concision may be opened to useful discussion.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 4:01 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Settings Documentation


Hi everyone,

Lots of good points here. So firstly, from a very simplistic view - if there are any settings which experienced people such as yourselves can't get an explanation of from the User Guide, then that's definitely something we should address. Please either let me know (or file a GitHub issue) as you find examples.

Re the user guide being too thick and heavy for new users to get start with - that's largely because that's not who it is really aimed at. For a lot of users, the Basic Training for NVDA would be the best place to start. There is potentially a gap for a short "quick start" guide, and I'd be happy to explore that further with anyone who has ideas on the subject.

Joseph, re some sort of training for new contributors - that too is a great idea, and I'd be happy to work further with you on it.

I've made a note to follow all of this up (since it's into the evening here and I'm trying to figure out book week costumes while getting the kids to bed).


On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 10:44 AM Robert Doc Wright godfearer <godfearer@comcast.net> wrote:

Where I need direction on what I need to study in order to be a tech writer for NVDA. I believe that once I understand something I can teach it to anyone. My stumbling block is that I have had some programming classes but that was twenty years ago. I taught myself basic web design from a book. What do I need to know to be of help where the users guide is concerned?
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the world says, hey come with me. My way is broad and easy. So what if you get crap on your shoes. You can always wash it off, can't you!


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----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2020 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Settings Documentation


Hi,

Agreed (that’s one of the reasons why I comment a lot in my add-on source code).

One holiday wish I have (possibly a long-term wish) is to help folks get started on revamping the NVDA community documentation. At least this can include add-on user guides, but I foresee a day where the screen reader user guide would not escape this rewrite in hopes of making it more relevant for users. I would go so far as ask NVDA code contributors to add extensive documentation in source code itself – it is now possible to do it easily with help from a module called Sphinx, a source code based documentation generator. There are major issues to consider, however:

Who is the target audience: thinking about this changes the game, as it will dictate tone, style, word usage, and organization of the document and supplemental materials.
Mindset of code contributors: are we just software developers or technical authors? Some people would argue that developers should focus on programming and testing, leaving the task of documenting what developers wrote to technical authors, and this separation of concerns may foster better communication amongst team members. On the other hand, by forcing developers to become technical authors, they can make crucial decisions about the user-visible aspects of a given product a bit early.
How can we show we accept diversity in terms of culture, language, skill level, and other factors: although the community documentation was written by NV Access people at first, it is increasingly written by people from diverse backgrounds in terms of culture, language, skill level, and other factors (although I did receive training on technical communication and software development, I’m not a native English speaker). This is more so for parts that are written by people who may have different interpretation about a UI message or concepts, more so if the author’s native language is not English (the reverse is true for translators as they need to grasp concepts written in English in their native languages).



My responses to the above questions are:

Who is the target audience: it varies. For NVDA user guide, it is users with differing skill levels. For add-on guides, they target end users. For this reason, whenever I edit the NVDA user guide or add-on guides, I think about what users expect and NVDA’s response. This changes if we’re dealing with a document meant for developers (such as add-on internals and such).
Mindset of code contributors: I believe that, as much as programming skills is important, willingness to communicate with audiences (users, other contributors, industry experts, etc.) is also important. One way to practice both is thinking and writing to and about users, therefore I tend to fall into a bit of the latter category from above: programming is, in one way or another, writing. Python is just one of the more specialized languages used to communicate with another entity (the machine), and if one can teach a computer to do something (along with fixing mistakes), it would be possible to train developers to respect users more by writing good documentation (of course someone may need to look at the documentation for style and such). My philosophy partly stems from my experiences as a former computer science major at a college I attended (different from the one I’m about to graduate from): my first computer science professor stressed the importance of source code comments and documentation, and I still practice this lesson today, which fuels my overall frustration with the current state of NVDA user guide and source code documentation in general. I think one exercise code contributors can do before submitting anything to GitHub (specifically, pull; requests) is writing an early user facing documentation, because doing so helps you improve your writing skills and think carefully about the impact of your changes when users meet them (I sometimes find myself struggling for minutes to hours over UI messages and documentation for this reason; I know what my code will do, but I hit a roadblock when explaining what I’ve done to would-be users before actually writing code).
How can we show we are a group of people coming from diverse backgrounds: I think this goal was somewhat achieved when we look at recent NVDA work – many new features and bug fixes included in NVDA 2020.3 were written by someone other than an NV Access staff member, from people living in different countries and speaking many languages. But I know that we can improve on that somehow.



Another wish I have, mostly for Quentin: can we develop some sort of a training program for would-be contributors wishing to improve the overall NVDA community documentation, including the user guide? It may include basics on technical writing, tone and style, audience analysis, exercises where coding and documentation should be done together, and documentation production in a variety of formats (including online media). I think this may help us dive deeper into user guide issues being brought up, including the guide being “too thick” for newbies (in terms of understanding, lack of solid examples, and friendliness), especially for preferences chapter.

Cheers,

Joseph









From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2020 11:56 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Settings Documentation





Joseph,

While I applaud your efforts, and tutorials are invaluable, I wasn't even going that far. I'm talking basic documentation, where each item in a panel/pane/settings group in a given pane are briefly documented. There are myriad NVDA settings that, if their actual function is not directly obvious, which is the case, for example, with most checkboxes, then they're a black hole.

Even I will admit that for all software it is a limited number of end users who refer to this sort of thing. That being said, some do, and it serves as a very important basis for new developers to develop depth of knowledge of "what's in there and what it's for."

I was just commenting to someone for whom I've done custom VBA scripting for Outlook that I am eternally grateful to myself for having developed the habit of rigorously commenting my code, at a bare minimum, as even I would have no idea what some of what I've written actually does when looking at it much later. Complex stuff doesn't remain in "off the top of my head" mode (for most "mes") as time moves on. That's one of the reasons that basic documentation is so important.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

~ Kelley Boorn

















--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


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