Date   

Re: Trying to build NVDA from source using the directions I found on GitHub and having problems with liblouis

 

Matthew,

          I suggest you try asking about this on the NVDA Screen Reader Development Group:

This list is provided for discussion about development for the NVDA (NonVisual Desktop Access) screen reading software. This includes questions and discussion about the code, user experience, design and documentation, both between regular developers and new or potential developers.

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind.

        ~ Thomas Reed Powell

 


Re: add-on for accessing the system tray

Sarah k Alawami
 

Actually I was never taught that in my training classes. I learned these things years and years and years after I got my training. In fact I was told, never press enter on a button, ever, it's space or nothing at all, which is what I do 20 years later. All I was told about the sighted keys is "click is space" and that's it.

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On 8 Dec 2020, at 19:04, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 08:54 PM, Gene wrote:
Most blind Windows users do not know that enter is the equivalent of a left double clicck, that space is equivalent of a left single click and that opening the context menu with the context menu key is equivalent to a right mouse click. this simply isn't tought consistently to blind people in general and it is this specific knowledge that is necessary to use the system tray directly.
-
Gene, plain and simple, I call BS!   I have been around screen reader users for well over a decade now, ranging in age from under 15 years old up through individuals in their 80s.  They absolutely do know these things, as a matter of routine, or they'd be unable to function with a screen reader.

You don't have to be explicitly taught, instructed, etc., to figure out certain things you need to know on your own.  Though I will never deny that instruction helps.  I'm just not seeing these broad swaths of unaware individuals.

I'm not new to this dance, and your assertions are in direct contradiction to my observations and experience since 2010.  Your endless plaint that screen reader users cannot be expected to know the very basics of screen reader use is just not borne out in the real world, except in the case of complete neophytes, and that is not the bulk of the demographic that is here on this group, nor on any screen reader user group.  And those who do identify themselves as neophytes, which they need to do when they are, tend to get a lot more guidance and patience than would be warranted otherwise.

And I am completely out of patience with your endless insistence that the complete neophyte or the completely unaware are the common denominator.  They are not.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind.

        ~ Thomas Reed Powell

 


Trying to build NVDA from source using the directions I found on GitHub and having problems with liblouis

matthew dyer <ilovecountrymusic483@...>
 

Hi all,

 

Not sure if this is the list to get the help for this, but with some extra time on my hands, thought I would try learning how to run and build nvda from source.  I find that I do just fine except that scons complains about liblooies.  Here is the output I get.  I will try to clean it up so it is not so long.  I tried to get a copy of liblooies but did not find a way to install it so that it would find it during the build prosses.  And now here is the output.

Creating 'build\x86\liblouis\liblouis.h'

clang-cl /Fobuild\x86\liblouis\compileTranslationTable.c.obj /c include\liblouis\liblouis\compileTranslationTable.c /W2 /D_CRT_SECURE_NO_DEPRECATE /DLOGLEVEL=15 /D_WIN32_WINNT=_WIN32_WINNT_WIN7 /DNDEBUG /D_CRT_NONSTDC_NO_DEPRECATE /DPACKAGE_VERSION=\"3.15.0\" /DWIDECHARS_ARE_UCS4 /D_EXPORTING /Ibuild\x86\liblouis /Iinclude\liblouis\liblouis /Iinclude /Imiscdeps\include /Ibuild\x86 /Z7

'clang-cl' is not recognized as an internal or external command,

operable program or batch file.

scons: *** [build\x86\liblouis\compileTranslationTable.c.obj] Error 1

scons: building terminated because of errors.

PS C:\Users\ilove\nvda>


Re: NVDA goes silent when arrowing down the list of participants panel in Zoom

Bob Cavanaugh <cavbob1993@...>
 

Okay, now that my meeting is over I can give more detail.
In Zoom, open the participants panel, and hit your down arrow. It
reads the first six participants normally, then does not read anymore,
I waited a couple seconds before pressing the arrow key to make sure
there was no delay. If you keep pressing down arrow and there are only
about a dozen participants as there were in my meeting tonight, you
will soon loop back to the top of the list, and NVDA exhibits the same
behavior. If you press your up arrow once, then press down arrow
again, NVDA reads both participants encountered, but pressing down
arrow a second time gives silence.
To give a clearer example, let's say there are 15 participants in a
meeting, as there were in mine tonight. I opened the participant
panel, and saw that my name was at the top. I pressed down arrow five
times, landing on the sixth participant in the list with no problem. I
press down arrow again to navigate to the seventh participant, NVDA
does not say a word. I press up arrow once, NVDA reads the name of the
sixth participant again. I then press down arrow again, and it reads
the seventh participant as expected. I then press down arrow to move
to the eighth participant, which NVDA does not read. If I continue to
press down arrow, NVDA continues to be silent, until it loops back to
the top of the list, where as mentioned above, it reads the first six
participants. If however I press my up arrow here, it reads the
previous five participants, then goes silent until it gets to the
bottom of the list, where just like the down arrow at the top of the
list, it reads the bottom six. Using your down arrow after the up
arrow has gone silent also reads the next five. I hope this makes
sense.

On 12/8/20, Bob Cavanaugh via groups.io <cavbob1993=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
I am in a Zoom meeting right now, and can confirm that NVDA does not
speak when arrowing down after six participants. Interestingly, if you
go to the bottom of the list and use your up arrow, the same thing
happens. I waited several seconds before pressing the arrow key again,
and NVDA never spoke.

On 12/2/20, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
When testing a problem like this, it may be helpful to test for such
things.

Assuming that something is or isn't happening may lead to an incorrect
description of a problem.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Cavanaugh
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2020 11:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA goes silent when arrowing down the list of
participants panel in Zoom

Nor have I done much testing with this, as I'm usually trying to focus
on the meeting I'm attending, but I do not expect my screen reader, no
matter what it is, to suddenly be delayed by several seconds after
arrowing down a half a dozen times with no problem whatsoever. I may
have a meeting on Saturday, so I will play around with this if that
meeting happens.

On 12/2/20, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
How long do you wait before deciding that nothing will be read? The
meetings I attend generally don't have a lot of attendees. Generally
something like eight or ten. If I down arrow a lot of times, speech is
delayed, I didn't play with this much because I wanted to hear what was
going on in the meeting, but it seemed to me that in perhaps ten
seconds,

I

would hear something.

It might help those analyzing the problem if they knew if speech stops
or

is

very delayed. I didn't do enough testing to know on my machine. I may
when

I attend another meeting.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Sim Kah Yong
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2020 8:36 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA goes silent when arrowing down the list of
participants panel in Zoom

Hi

I tried the read current line or the read the current line of the
navigation object and NVDA reads to me when I encounter the problem.
This is just a work-around, how nice if a solution can be found for
this. Thanks.

On 11/30/2020 11:07 AM, Gene wrote:
What happens if you down arrow and when speech stops, read the current
line. You can also try reading the current line of the navigator
object,
in the desktop layout, numpad 8. I don't know the laptop layout. You
may

not hear anything but if this combination allows you to hear the names
as

you move, that may be a work around that is reasonable for now.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Sky Mundell
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 8:20 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA goes silent when arrowing down the list of
participants panel in Zoom

Hello Bob. Just curious, does SA have that problem? System Access I
mean?

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bob
Cavanaugh
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 6:09 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA goes silent when arrowing down the list of
participants panel in Zoom

I have this issue too. What I've found to work is to hit your up arrow
when you get to the point where it goes silent, then your down arrow
again. That helps for a brief time, then you have to repeat that
process
again. I agree, kind of annoying. I'm also having two additional issues
with NVDA not reading things properly in Zoom:
1. When typing anything in Zoom and you type something wrong, NVDA does
not read what you backspace. It reads if you type things normally, but
if

you try to review or correct an error, it will not read.
2. If you're in a meeting that initially isn't being recorded, then the
host starts recording, NVDA does not read the alert that tells you that
the meeting is now being recorded.

On 11/29/20, Sim Kah Yong <simkahyong@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi all,

Wish to report the above problem when using NVDA in Zoom. IN a zoom
meeting, if I wish to find out the list of participants, I will press
alt + U to call out the participants panel. I will then arrow down the
list. After severl down arrow, NVDA will stop speaking.

I am using the latest version of NVDA, Zoom enhancement app and Zoom.
This problem has been there even with the older version of NVDA and
Zoom. I am using Windows 8.1. I have tried the following with no
avail:

1. Wit no apps

2. restart NVDA

3. Re-boot my computer.

Just wish to find out if any of you have similar problem and what can
be done? Perhaps this can help to improve future version of NVDA.

I have also use JAWS and this has not been a problem. Thanks all.







































Re: NVDA is not working in Excel 2019

Quentin Christensen
 

There have been issues on and off with formatting in Excel (well reading the formatting at least).

My understanding of how things work at present:
- If you have NVDA's document formatting (NVDA+control+d) set to report changes in font / colour etc, these are read out.
- If you press NVDA+f on a cell, NVDA reports "No caret".
- If you press F2 to edit a cell and immediately press NVDA+f (with the focus at the end of the text), nvda reads "No formatting information".
- If you press F2 to edit a cell and then press left arrow to move before the last character, then press NVDA+f, NVDA WILL read the formatting information.

Here are a couple of our issues on it:

(I must go through and check the differences between those)

The issue Brian mentioned about formatting information not being read in the cell format dialog (CONTROL+1) is a slightly different issue, it just coincidentally happens to be particularly noticeable on the formatting dialog.  The issue is that NVDA can't read selected text in those edit boxes - and when you tab to any of those edit boxes, the text in the box you land on is selected.  If you press an arrow key to unselect the text and then press NVDA+up arrow (or NVDA+l), NVDA will read the name of the font, or other information in the edit.


As always, if you can add any extra information to any of those issues, please do comment on the issues, as it will prompt people to look at them again.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 4:23 AM Carlos Esteban Martínez Macías via groups.io <cesteban.martinez=nvda.es@groups.io> wrote:

Hi all.

In Excel, NVDA go to read the format when the focus is on the cell with NVDA]shift]f, NVDA]f is when the cursor is in the edit box of the cell, because in NVDA 2020.3 the command NVDA]f now say the format in the system cursor, and NVDA]shift]f of the review cursor.

And yes, NVDA have problems in the dialog fond that Bryan mentioned, other users of Spanish community also report it.

Regards.

 

 

Carlos Esteban Martínez Macías.

Soporte a usuarios, comunidad hispanohablante de NVDA.

Web www.nvda.es

Experto certificado en NVDA

 

De: Brian Vogel
Enviado: lunes, 7 de diciembre de 2020 10:38
Para: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Asunto: Re: [nvda] NVDA is not working in Excel 2019

 

Just for the record, it's also behaving similarly in Excel 2016.  What's even stranger is if you bring up the Font dialog via CTRL+SHIFT+F it's reporting the font name and style (probably size, too, but I stopped after the first two) as blank when there is clearly a font name and regular in the respective boxes.
 
There is an active issue open for this on GitHub:  Font information not read in Cell Format dialog in Excel 2016 / 365
If you have a GitHub account, you may wish to add a comment.  I just did because I'm having the same issues you're having.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind.

        ~ Thomas Reed Powell

 

 



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Re: sudden changes to Hulu's website

 

True, a lot of the market seems to be going that way but not everyone wants to be on apps.



On 9/12/2020 12:45 pm, g melconian wrote:

They probably want you to be on there mobile apps  whether that be I os or android .  that’s   where  they make most of  their profits from. 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ame
Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 3:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] sudden changes to Hulu's website

 

Well, this is no bug.  I was told by a chat agent that NVDA is no longer supported by Hulu.  That’s absolutely ridiculous.  I have NVDA because I can’t afford jaws,  Window eyes or any of the other commercial screen readers.  I can access Hulu’s content with narrator but it’s so clumsy as I said.  There’s no reason for them to do that.  I wonder who I could approach about getting them to reinstate support for NVDA.  Like I said, up till last Thursday afternoon, I never had a single problem navigating the site or accessing content.  The change was very sudden.  I’m beyond furious. 


Re: sudden changes to Hulu's website

 

Well I do help test for supernova and have my own reasons for doing so, but hmmm I'd never use that online, its not a problem I just don't agree with the methods of brousing the net with supernova at all.

Its not that smooth.

Basically not to start a war here, but when your wedded to using virtual cursers to access just about everything online when something like nvda doesn't need to do that just doesn't make much sence now I have used it.

If hulu is actually against nvda, we can just complain how not accessible it is, sadly we can't sue though they must be breaking a lot of access laws and for what?

No one is going to get jaws for hulu.

To be honest thats another service I will have to tell others not to recommend, I'd cancle my subscription and such immediately.



On 9/12/2020 12:43 pm, Ame wrote:

Well, this is no bug.  I was told by a chat agent that NVDA is no longer supported by Hulu.  That’s absolutely ridiculous.  I have NVDA because I can’t afford jaws,  Window eyes or any of the other commercial screen readers.  I can access Hulu’s content with narrator but it’s so clumsy as I said.  There’s no reason for them to do that.  I wonder who I could approach about getting them to reinstate support for NVDA.  Like I said, up till last Thursday afternoon, I never had a single problem navigating the site or accessing content.  The change was very sudden.  I’m beyond furious. 

.


Re: Spellcheck: How do I read the misspelled word in context?

Gene
 

That isn't what is wanted. What is wanted is a way to hear the word in the sentence in which it occurs. I am not going to say that NVDA doesn't have this ability. I will say that I don't know of a way.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Fresh Start
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2020 9:14 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Spellcheck: Howe do I read the mispelled word in context

Reading a misspelled word in context in NVDA

to read the word again, press Numpad 5 in Desktop keyboard layout, or
NVDA+control+. In laptop keyboard layout. To spell the word again, press the
keystroke twice quickly. To read the sentence again, press NVDA+up arrow or
NVDA+l.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ann Byrne
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2020 4:17 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Spellcheck: Howe do I read the mispelled word in context

when checking a document for spelling, how do I get NVDA to read the
sentence the word belongs to? Advanced versions of Word do offer their own
solution, but in 2013 there is no external voicing of the sentence.


Re: add-on for accessing the system tray

Gene
 

After this message, I will have said everything I have to say on the topic. I won't comment further. If you or others want to comment, I'll read comments with interest but anything more I would say would be repetition.

On further reflection, the function of enter varies with the context. In the system tray, it is left double click. Clearly, it isn't in lists and tree views. You can press enter as often and as quickly as you want on an unselected item in a list and nothing will happen. In a list, you select something by moving to it with the arrow keys or by pressing the space bar. You then activate it by pressing enter. With the mouse, you click once to select, then click again to have the selected item take an action. You don't have to know these things to do a great deal in Windows as a blind person. You need to know that you select something in a list by moving to it and press enter. Most people do not know what I am talking about when it comes to enter having different functions depending on context. And they don't know that in the system tray enter is double click or what the other commands I've mentioned do in the system tray.

Also, I don't have the endless plaint you speak of nor the common denominator position you state, but those things have nothing to do with the discussion. Either most blind people know what I am saying about the system tray and how enter varies depending on context or they don't.

I didn't bring up the system tray documentation to generalize or discuss other questions. I am discussing the system tray and documentation. My point is that the manual should include a brief discussion on how to use the real system tray. the system tray dialog has buttons for doing these things. Most people don't know the system tray commands.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2020 9:04 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] add-on for accessing the system tray

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 08:54 PM, Gene wrote:
Most blind Windows users do not know that enter is the equivalent of a left double click, that space is equivalent of a left single click and that opening the context menu with the context menu key is equivalent to a right mouse click. this simply isn't thought consistently to blind people in general and it is this specific knowledge that is necessary to use the system tray directly.-
Gene, plain and simple, I call BS! I have been around screen reader users for well over a decade now, ranging in age from under 15 years old up through individuals in their 80s. They absolutely do know these things, as a matter of routine, or they'd be unable to function with a screen reader.

You don't have to be explicitly taught, instructed, etc., to figure out certain things you need to know on your own. Though I will never deny that instruction helps. I'm just not seeing these broad swaths of unaware individuals.

I'm not new to this dance, and your assertions are in direct contradiction to my observations and experience since 2010. Your endless plaint that screen reader users cannot be expected to know the very basics of screen reader use is just not borne out in the real world, except in the case of complete neophytes, and that is not the bulk of the demographic that is here on this group, nor on any screen reader user group. And those who do identify themselves as neophytes, which they need to do when they are, tend to get a lot more guidance and patience than would be warranted otherwise.

And I am completely out of patience with your endless insistence that the complete neophyte or the completely unaware are the common denominator. They are not.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind.

~ Thomas Reed Powell


Re: add-on for accessing the system tray

 

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 10:24 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
And for those who were formerly sighted and were former "point and clickers," they instantly know what the "to keyboard" translation is.
-
. . . somehow I deleted, "after being told, usually once, what those equivalent keyboard shortcuts/actions are."  It's not something I've seen most computer users, blind or sighted, agonize over.  You learn how to do what it is, in the way you need to do it, to achieve a result.  

I've seen a lot, lot, lot, more clueless sighted people about how things are done using the keyboard as the access method than I've met blind individuals who don't know exactly how to follow sighted directions doing their own "to keyboard" translations on the fly.  They'd be cutting themselves off from the vast majority of documentation that's available in this world were they not prepared to do so.

I've also encountered about as many computer users, sighted or blind, who've never been taught or learned "what controls what."  By that I mean what commands are handled by the operating system, versus their screen reader (when it's a screen reader user), versus the application program they're using.  That's something I actually try to teach people to think about every time they hit a stumbling block.  You can't move forward unless you know which level of interaction is where that stumbling block lies.  And it's generally not all that hard to figure out once you get used to doing it when required.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind.

        ~ Thomas Reed Powell

 


Re: NVDA goes silent when arrowing down the list of participants panel in Zoom

Bob Cavanaugh <cavbob1993@...>
 

I am in a Zoom meeting right now, and can confirm that NVDA does not
speak when arrowing down after six participants. Interestingly, if you
go to the bottom of the list and use your up arrow, the same thing
happens. I waited several seconds before pressing the arrow key again,
and NVDA never spoke.

On 12/2/20, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
When testing a problem like this, it may be helpful to test for such things.

Assuming that something is or isn't happening may lead to an incorrect
description of a problem.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Cavanaugh
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2020 11:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA goes silent when arrowing down the list of
participants panel in Zoom

Nor have I done much testing with this, as I'm usually trying to focus
on the meeting I'm attending, but I do not expect my screen reader, no
matter what it is, to suddenly be delayed by several seconds after
arrowing down a half a dozen times with no problem whatsoever. I may
have a meeting on Saturday, so I will play around with this if that
meeting happens.

On 12/2/20, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
How long do you wait before deciding that nothing will be read? The
meetings I attend generally don't have a lot of attendees. Generally
something like eight or ten. If I down arrow a lot of times, speech is
delayed, I didn't play with this much because I wanted to hear what was
going on in the meeting, but it seemed to me that in perhaps ten seconds,

I

would hear something.

It might help those analyzing the problem if they knew if speech stops or

is

very delayed. I didn't do enough testing to know on my machine. I may
when

I attend another meeting.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Sim Kah Yong
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2020 8:36 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA goes silent when arrowing down the list of
participants panel in Zoom

Hi

I tried the read current line or the read the current line of the
navigation object and NVDA reads to me when I encounter the problem.
This is just a work-around, how nice if a solution can be found for
this. Thanks.

On 11/30/2020 11:07 AM, Gene wrote:
What happens if you down arrow and when speech stops, read the current
line. You can also try reading the current line of the navigator object,
in the desktop layout, numpad 8. I don't know the laptop layout. You
may

not hear anything but if this combination allows you to hear the names
as

you move, that may be a work around that is reasonable for now.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Sky Mundell
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 8:20 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA goes silent when arrowing down the list of
participants panel in Zoom

Hello Bob. Just curious, does SA have that problem? System Access I
mean?

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bob
Cavanaugh
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 6:09 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA goes silent when arrowing down the list of
participants panel in Zoom

I have this issue too. What I've found to work is to hit your up arrow
when you get to the point where it goes silent, then your down arrow
again. That helps for a brief time, then you have to repeat that process
again. I agree, kind of annoying. I'm also having two additional issues
with NVDA not reading things properly in Zoom:
1. When typing anything in Zoom and you type something wrong, NVDA does
not read what you backspace. It reads if you type things normally, but
if

you try to review or correct an error, it will not read.
2. If you're in a meeting that initially isn't being recorded, then the
host starts recording, NVDA does not read the alert that tells you that
the meeting is now being recorded.

On 11/29/20, Sim Kah Yong <simkahyong@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi all,

Wish to report the above problem when using NVDA in Zoom. IN a zoom
meeting, if I wish to find out the list of participants, I will press
alt + U to call out the participants panel. I will then arrow down the
list. After severl down arrow, NVDA will stop speaking.

I am using the latest version of NVDA, Zoom enhancement app and Zoom.
This problem has been there even with the older version of NVDA and
Zoom. I am using Windows 8.1. I have tried the following with no avail:

1. Wit no apps

2. restart NVDA

3. Re-boot my computer.

Just wish to find out if any of you have similar problem and what can
be done? Perhaps this can help to improve future version of NVDA.

I have also use JAWS and this has not been a problem. Thanks all.



































Re: add-on for accessing the system tray

 

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 10:15 PM, Gene wrote:
They are taught to press enter to take an action after you select it with the arrow keys. they are not taught whether they are double or single clicking nor that what enter does appears to change with the context.
-
Potato, po-tah-to.  This is the kind of hair splitting I'm not even going to try to address.  It's about the mechanics of getting the same result.  The exact how is not what's relevant here.

Most blind users can read directions written for the sighted and know what click, double click, right click, left click, bring up the context menu, etc., mean in terms of the method(s) they use to do what the point and click equivalent does.  It's not the how that's important, it's getting the desired action to take place.  Most, with the exception of complete neophytes, already know this.  And for those who were formerly sighted and were former "point and clickers," they instantly know what the "to keyboard" translation is.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind.

        ~ Thomas Reed Powell

 


Re: add-on for accessing the system tray

Gene
 

That simply isn't true and I have been around my share of blind windows users. If you know that you press enter to do things like play a file, or open something in a list, you can do that and not know you are executing a double left click. Indeed, on further reflection, you aren't. The purpose of a double left click is to first select something, then click it. In the case of moving in lists and tree views, the act of movement with the arrow keys selects something, thus performing the first click. When you press enter, you are performing the second click. Thus, what I stated, on further reflection, that enter is a double click is questionable as a generalization. You can't select and open something that isn't already selected by pressing enter. You can't take any action in a list or some other structures where you first click to select something then click to take an action on the selected item. You can press enter as often and as quickly as you like on an unselected item in a list and nothing will happen. Thus, I don't know how enter is defined as a Windows command. It appears to change with context. In the system tray, it is double click. In a list it isn't.

Most blind windows users simply do not know or care about these kinds of distinctions. They are taught to press enter to take an action after you select it with the arrow keys. they are not taught whether they are double or single clicking nor that what enter does appears to change with the context.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2020 9:04 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] add-on for accessing the system tray

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 08:54 PM, Gene wrote:
Most blind Windows users do not know that enter is the equivalent of a left double clicck, that space is equivalent of a left single click and that opening the context menu with the context menu key is equivalent to a right mouse click. this simply isn't tought consistently to blind people in general and it is this specific knowledge that is necessary to use the system tray directly.-
Gene, plain and simple, I call BS! I have been around screen reader users for well over a decade now, ranging in age from under 15 years old up through individuals in their 80s. They absolutely do know these things, as a matter of routine, or they'd be unable to function with a screen reader.

You don't have to be explicitly taught, instructed, etc., to figure out certain things you need to know on your own. Though I will never deny that instruction helps. I'm just not seeing these broad swaths of unaware individuals.

I'm not new to this dance, and your assertions are in direct contradiction to my observations and experience since 2010. Your endless plaint that screen reader users cannot be expected to know the very basics of screen reader use is just not borne out in the real world, except in the case of complete neophytes, and that is not the bulk of the demographic that is here on this group, nor on any screen reader user group. And those who do identify themselves as neophytes, which they need to do when they are, tend to get a lot more guidance and patience than would be warranted otherwise.

And I am completely out of patience with your endless insistence that the complete neophyte or the completely unaware are the common denominator. They are not.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind.

~ Thomas Reed Powell


Re: Spellcheck: How do I read the misspelled word in context?

Fresh Start <dan@...>
 

Reading a misspelled word in context in NVDA

to read the word again, press Numpad 5 in Desktop keyboard layout, or
NVDA+control+. In laptop keyboard layout. To spell the word again, press the
keystroke twice quickly. To read the sentence again, press NVDA+up arrow or
NVDA+l.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ann Byrne
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2020 4:17 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Spellcheck: Howe do I read the mispelled word in context

when checking a document for spelling, how do I get NVDA to read the
sentence the word belongs to? Advanced versions of Word do offer their own
solution, but in 2013 there is no external voicing of the sentence.


Re: add-on for accessing the system tray

 

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 09:10 PM, Roger Stewart wrote:
I'll always want this add on.
-
And will probably always have it so long as there's a maintainer for the add-on.  My issue, way back, was the assertion that this functionality should be made part of the NVDA core.  I have no problem with the functionality, per se, nor with how it's implemented.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind.

        ~ Thomas Reed Powell

 


Re: add-on for accessing the system tray

 

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 08:54 PM, Gene wrote:
Most blind Windows users do not know that enter is the equivalent of a left double clicck, that space is equivalent of a left single click and that opening the context menu with the context menu key is equivalent to a right mouse click. this simply isn't tought consistently to blind people in general and it is this specific knowledge that is necessary to use the system tray directly.
-
Gene, plain and simple, I call BS!   I have been around screen reader users for well over a decade now, ranging in age from under 15 years old up through individuals in their 80s.  They absolutely do know these things, as a matter of routine, or they'd be unable to function with a screen reader.

You don't have to be explicitly taught, instructed, etc., to figure out certain things you need to know on your own.  Though I will never deny that instruction helps.  I'm just not seeing these broad swaths of unaware individuals.

I'm not new to this dance, and your assertions are in direct contradiction to my observations and experience since 2010.  Your endless plaint that screen reader users cannot be expected to know the very basics of screen reader use is just not borne out in the real world, except in the case of complete neophytes, and that is not the bulk of the demographic that is here on this group, nor on any screen reader user group.  And those who do identify themselves as neophytes, which they need to do when they are, tend to get a lot more guidance and patience than would be warranted otherwise.

And I am completely out of patience with your endless insistence that the complete neophyte or the completely unaware are the common denominator.  They are not.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind.

        ~ Thomas Reed Powell

 


Re: sudden changes to Hulu's website

Ame
 

Well, actually I was able to use browse mode and instead of just tabbing over after I did a search, I hit enter.  Then I used the tab and saw my results!  Woohoo!  Problem solved.  An extra half step is a very small price to pay.  Thanks to all of you for listen to me rant and rave like a wild thang.  lol


Re: add-on for accessing the system tray

Roger Stewart
 

I totally agree! I use this add on at least once a week. It gives so fast access to system tray icons and just a short hotkey press to do left or right click on them. It is very useful to me. Yes, it can be done the other way, but sometimes it takes time. I do internet radio broadcasting and sometimes I just can't spend the extra time to do it the other way I'll always want this add on.

Roger

On 12/8/2020 5:41 PM, Gene wrote:
It is needed on rare occasions.  At times, you can't access something properly using the system tray itself and  you can with the add-on.  At times, the reverse is true.

And whether it is needed isn't really to the point.  It has been the custom for screen-readers to provide a system tray dialog since Windows 98.  At that time, that was the only way the system tray was accessible.  It is so standardized in screen-readers that it should be a part of NVDA, particularly since a lot of users will never know about the add-on.  Who knows how many users never learn about this list or other places where they would be encouraged to explore add-ons.  At times, you just do something because it makes sense under existing conditions.  NVDA developers believe that NVDA should do almost nothing outside of be a pure screen-reader.  If taken too far, that is ideology and, as with all ideologies that are followed too dogmatically, results in bad decisions.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Lino Morales
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2020 5:24 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] add-on for accessing the system tray

Its a nice add-on, but not needed. WIN key B regardless of whatever
screen reader you use is great.

On 12/8/2020 6:21 PM, Bob Cavanaugh wrote:
Hi everyone,
I remember hearing from another user that I need an add-on to access
the system tray by pressing NVDA+F11. Can someone please send me the
link to that add-on? This is something else that I think should be
built into NVDA.
Thanks,
Bob











.


Re: sudden changes to Hulu's website

Lenron
 

yawns damn hulu.

On 12/8/20, Jackie <abletec@gmail.com> wrote:
Ame, I can't entirely comment, my husband created the Hulu account, he
doesn't recall the credentials & I didn't know them from the
beginning.

Having said that, have you checked:
https://help.hulu.com/s/article/accessibility-features?language=en_US

It is accurate that NVDA is not mentioned in the list of supported
screen readers. It is also noteworthy that they expect their visitors
to have the latest edition of the browser they're currently using,
which may or may not be relevant to you. I don't recall that you ever
told us what browser you're using, but, basically, if you're a windows
user, they support Edge, Chrome, & Firefox.

There is also a link in the article I mentioned above to email your
specific screen reader feedback.

HTH.

On 12/8/20, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't use Hulu so you can see if this works or helps. You evidently
turned browse mode off and were able to do a search. After you do it,
turn

it on again with the same command and look at the page. See if you get
useful information.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Ame
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2020 5:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] sudden changes to Hulu's website



I’d think so. I don’t have the foggiest idea what the heck to do. I
hate
Narrator. I hate it! I think what we have here at the end of the day is
someone in the organization who knows just enough about assistive
technology

to be dangerous. Lol By the way, I tried the thing with browse mode and
I
was able to perform a search but I couldn’t access what I searched for
even

with browse mode on. Can you give me any futther ideas? I was able to
take

a baby step forward with browse mode. Now if I could just access the
results of my search, I’ll be a happy lady.









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Re: add-on for accessing the system tray

Gene
 

Most blind Windows users do not know that enter is the equivalent of a left double clicck, that space is equivalent of a left single click and that opening the context menu with the context menu key is equivalent to a right mouse click. this simply isn't tought consistently to blind people in general and it is this specific knowledge that is necessary to use the system tray directly.

There is no harm nor violation of anything to place a few sentences in the section dealing with the system tray explaining this. I didn't say anything about the manual teaching Windows basics in general and I didn't claim that it should. I'm saying that if you don't include the system tray dialog, considering that very few blind people know what I am explaining, that it should be explained in that section.

At times, to be effective in pursuing a goall, you need to depart from ideology and do what makes sense to do in a specific situation. Neither you nor I know if our views in what should be in NVDA documentation generally agree or not, we haven't discussed that. I am talking about one very specific instance where a two decades means of working with the system tray is not included in NVDA and it is in other screen-readers. If you don't include what has become universally included elsewhere and that blind people know how to use, you should include a few lines explaining how to work with that which you are intending that blind people use as a result of what you are leaving out. I make no other statements about documentation.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2020 6:26 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] add-on for accessing the system tray

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 07:11 PM, Gene wrote:
Also, unless the manual has changed, when I checked last, a year or two ago, no instruction was given for using the system tray.-
Believe it or not, Gene, I don't expect the folks at NVAccess to explain how to use a feature of Windows that has been present literally for decades.

What you expect in documentation, and what I do, are two entirely different things. NVDA documentation should not be teaching Windows basics. It is entirely reasonabl to presume that a Windows user already knows about the System Tray and how it works. They should also be presumed to know how SHIFT+F10 or the Applications/Context Menu key work. These are not screen reader concepts.

But with this, I'm done, because this is so meta that it has only the most tenuous connection to NVDA. The same things I said above would be applicable to documentation for Narrator, JAWS, and a number of now defunct screen readers. Users should know what's controlling what, and if they need the training to get that information, or need help from their friends, classmates, colleagues, etc., to get it then they need to pursue those avenues. It's not up to screen reader makers to teach basic Windows concepts in their documentation, except in passing as something screen reader specific is involved.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

If you think that you can think about a thing, inextricably attached to something else, without thinking of the thing it is attached to, then you have a legal mind.

~ Thomas Reed Powell

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