Date   

Re: Keyboard

Matthew Whitaker
 

Hi. Currently, there are no solar keyboards that work with IOS and Windows… there are keyboards that work with those operating systems separately though.

On Dec 16, 2020, at 5:28 PM, Darren Tomblin <dtomblin@hotmail.com> wrote:

Hi I’m looking for a full size Bluetooth solar keyboard that will work on windows and iOS does anyone know anything like that thanks

73,
Darren Tomblin KC9JJJ




Keyboard

Darren Tomblin
 

Hi I’m looking for a full size Bluetooth solar keyboard that will work on windows and iOS does anyone know anything like that thanks

73,
Darren Tomblin KC9JJJ


Re: Configuration Profiles and Triggers

 

Hi,

Yes.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2020 2:22 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Configuration Profiles and Triggers

 

Joseph,

          Thanks.  That means that it's "globally scoped" as a behavior override no matter where you are or what you're doing, which is what I was unclear about.  
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: Configuration Profiles and Triggers

 

Joseph,

          Thanks.  That means that it's "globally scoped" as a behavior override no matter where you are or what you're doing, which is what I was unclear about.  
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


NVDA 2020.4 Beta 1 now available

Quentin Christensen
 

Hi everyone,

Lazily copying my tweet - so you get everything in one sentence: NVDA 2020.4Beta1 is now available for testing, including  new Chinese Input methods, an update to Liblouis, the elements list now works in focus mode, context sensitive help pressing F1 in NVDA dialogs & heaps more!


As usual, please do report any issues on GitHub.

Kind regards

Quentin.

--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Re: Configuration Profiles and Triggers

 

Hi,

Say all profile is akin to a specialized manual profile in that it will be active while say all is in progress from any program (NVDA+Down arrow, NVDA+A on laptop layout). Think of it as NVDA version of alternate say all from JAWS where JAWS can be configured to use a different speech synthesizer during say all.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2020 2:08 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Configuration Profiles and Triggers

 

In playing around with these features, I notice that there are three options related to when a configuration profile would be invoked:

Manual, Current Application (with that application named in parentheses after), and Say All.

I understand that the Manual invocation is just that.  There is no automatic triggering of that configuration profile and you have to ask for it.  I also understand that the Current Application option will create an automatic trigger such that when NVDA detects that the application has focus, that configuration profile will be used.

It's Say All that has me slightly confused, and it's about scope.  Is the Say All choice global, in that regardless of what application you may be in and what profile may be active, that will be overridden by what you set up for Say All?  Or is the Say All choice scoped underneath an existing configuration profile so that, say you have one for the Chrome browser and are in Chrome, would the Say All override in whatever way you have it configured already for Chrome, but not for anything else?
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: How is verbosity decided

Gene
 

I will say that the reason I wrote my first message, the motivation that got me to do it is the newly added announcement of figure and out of figure. I have found no setting to control this announcement. If there is a way I overlooked, of course I'd like to know. But I see no reason for this announcement to be on. I haven't encountered it once where it adds any understanding of content. I might hear figure and then a link being read, then out of figure. The link would read exactly the same either way.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2020 3:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 04:21 PM, Gene wrote:
I'm talking about having profiles in the program at the time its downloaded that will cause differences such as bloc quotes to be announced in popular e-mail programs and not on the wweb.

-
I imagine it would be possible for NVAccess to create Configuration Profiles for any of a number of popular programs, and include them as part of the package. But the problem remains, defaults have to be chosen, and no matter what those are someone's not going to like them.

You have already had me, and Sarah, so far express why your chosen preference for you is something that neither of us would want as the default. That's not saying that your choice is wrong or inferior or that ours is better or superior, it all comes down to "tool to task".

Gene, you have expressed, on many occasions, that many screen reader users do not know how to use many of the features of their chosen screen readers for a number of different reasons, and I think that's the case here, to an extent. I just spent a few minutes playing with configuration profiles and triggers related to same and they're pretty straightforward. Even I will say that I can see a reason one might want to have predefined profiles for the various web browsers, and certain other programs, that are different from what the default NVDA configuration profile is, and one could legitimately discuss and argue what the default settings for some of those various profiles should be. But in the end, the end user absolutely, positively needs to know how to tweak these profiles if they were pre-existing, or to create them if they are not, if they have specific behaviors they want to see when a certain program is active.

Joseph Lee introduced me to the concept of information blackout in regard to screen reader users. There is no way that a screen reader can take in everything that appears on the screen at any given moment as a whole and deal with multiple elements like sighted people do, just because that's how sight and visual processing works. That means that from the outset there are things you don't know are there. When you add in that when text is read, with formatting, and you can't know what any given user at any given time might or might not find significant, you leave all options for announcement (or most of them, anyway), turned ON. You will never, and should never try, to second guess what any given individual may or may not find significant as far as a lot of document formatting goes. It took me all of a few minutes to figure out where the NVDA Configuration Profile Settings are (NVDA+N,C), create a new profile for a specific program on which I had focus before issuing that command (Use this profile for section, Current application radio button), and then using Document Formatting Options while that profile is active (you just continue on to those settings after having created the profile, which should still be active since you haven't changed the application which still has focus) to change what is/is not announced.

While you can argue, and should, what reasonable defaults are, in the end it is up to the end user to know how to do what I just described. And if they're annoyed about stuff being announced to post a message to a forum like this one asking about how they can get rid of the issue.

There is not, and never will be, a one-size-fits-all out of the box that makes every user happy. And the tools exist to, if not make any given user entirely happy, bring them an awful lot closer to that state.

When you have a problem, after briefly venting about it in a venue such as this, the next question should be: Is there I way I can make this work the way I want it to work? And explaining exactly what that is if the initial problem description and venting did not make that entirely clear.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner


Configuration Profiles and Triggers

 

In playing around with these features, I notice that there are three options related to when a configuration profile would be invoked:

Manual, Current Application (with that application named in parentheses after), and Say All.

I understand that the Manual invocation is just that.  There is no automatic triggering of that configuration profile and you have to ask for it.  I also understand that the Current Application option will create an automatic trigger such that when NVDA detects that the application has focus, that configuration profile will be used.

It's Say All that has me slightly confused, and it's about scope.  Is the Say All choice global, in that regardless of what application you may be in and what profile may be active, that will be overridden by what you set up for Say All?  Or is the Say All choice scoped underneath an existing configuration profile so that, say you have one for the Chrome browser and are in Chrome, would the Say All override in whatever way you have it configured already for Chrome, but not for anything else?
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: How is verbosity decided

 

On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 04:21 PM, Gene wrote:
Of course, NVDA uses scripts for various programs but that isn't what I had in mind.
-
I know what follows is hair-splitting, but my time in the screen reader world has taught me that sometimes it's necessary.

To my knowledge, it is only JAWS that uses scripts and uses the term scripts.  NVDA uses add-ons.  These mechanisms are more about ease of accessibility than behavior configuration, per se.

I believe both use the term configuration profile or just profile as it relates to setting things up to work as you want it to in a given individual program.  I know that JAWS used to do what you mentioned, and that is ship certain profiles as part of the product that cause behavioral change depending on what program JAWS happens to be running over.  It certainly appears that these configuration profiles are stored in files that a user could share with other users or port with them to other systems (presuming they're using installed NVDA, portable NVDA already carries these along as part of the folder hierarchy for portable NVDA)
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: How is verbosity decided

Sarah k Alawami
 

Actually this can already be done. Set up an activity profile, or what ever nvda calls it, and turn off the block quotes in the profiles you want , then have them activate when you go into an app or manually activate it.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 16 Dec 2020, at 13:21, Gene wrote:

I read it but I'm talking about something else. I'm talking about having profiles in the program at the time its downloaded that will cause differences such as bloc quotes to be announced in popular e-mail programs and not on the wweb. I suppose there might be other ways to do this but I would think profiles would be the easiest way. Of course, NVDA uses scripts for various programs but that isn't what I had in mind.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2020 1:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 01:21 PM, Gene wrote:
What I'm saying is that jjust as NVDA and other screen-readers are customized to work in certain ways with certain programs,-
Did you read message, https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/message/79813, from Joseph Lee, that came in 30 minutes before you posted this? App/application specific behavior already exists, and has for quite a while. I don't think that any version of NVDA I've ever touched didn't have it, but I could be wrong about when it was introduced. I thought it had been present since day one, but am not sure about that.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner








Re: How is verbosity decided

 

On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 04:21 PM, Gene wrote:
I'm talking about having profiles in the program at the time its downloaded that will cause differences such as bloc quotes to be announced in popular e-mail programs and not on the wweb.

-
I imagine it would be possible for NVAccess to create Configuration Profiles for any of a number of popular programs, and include them as part of the package.  But the problem remains, defaults have to be chosen, and no matter what those are someone's not going to like them.

You have already had me, and Sarah, so far express why your chosen preference for you is something that neither of us would want as the default.  That's not saying that your choice is wrong or inferior or that ours is better or superior, it all comes down to "tool to task".

Gene, you have expressed, on many occasions, that many screen reader users do not know how to use many of the features of their chosen screen readers for a number of different reasons, and I think that's the case here, to an extent.  I just spent a few minutes playing with configuration profiles and triggers related to same and they're pretty straightforward.  Even I will say that I can see a reason one might want to have predefined profiles for the various web browsers, and certain other programs, that are different from what the default NVDA configuration profile is, and one could legitimately discuss and argue what the default settings for some of those various profiles should be.  But in the end, the end user absolutely, positively needs to know how to tweak these profiles if they were pre-existing, or to create them if they are not, if they have specific behaviors they want to see when a certain program is active.

Joseph Lee introduced me to the concept of information blackout in regard to screen reader users.  There is no way that a screen reader can take in everything that appears on the screen at any given moment as a whole and deal with multiple elements like sighted people do, just because that's how sight and visual processing works.  That means that from the outset there are things you don't know are there.  When you add in that when text is read, with formatting, and you can't know what any given user at any given time might or might not find significant, you leave all options for announcement (or most of them, anyway), turned ON.  You will never, and should never try, to second guess what any given individual may or may not find significant as far as a lot of document formatting goes.  It took me all of a few minutes to figure out where the NVDA Configuration Profile Settings are (NVDA+N,C), create a new profile for a specific program on which I had focus before issuing that command (Use this profile for section, Current application radio button), and then using Document Formatting Options while that profile is active (you just continue on to those settings after having created the profile, which should still be active since you haven't changed the application which still has focus) to change what is/is not announced.

While you can argue, and should, what reasonable defaults are, in the end it is up to the end user to know how to do what I just described.  And if they're annoyed about stuff being announced to post a message to a forum like this one asking about how they can get rid of the issue.

There is not, and never will be, a one-size-fits-all out of the box that makes every user happy.  And the tools exist to, if not make any given user entirely happy, bring them an awful lot closer to that state.

When you have a problem, after briefly venting about it in a venue such as this, the next question should be:  Is there I way I can make this work the way I want it to work? And explaining exactly what that is if the initial problem description and venting did not make that entirely clear.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: How is verbosity decided

Gene
 

I read it but I'm talking about something else. I'm talking about having profiles in the program at the time its downloaded that will cause differences such as bloc quotes to be announced in popular e-mail programs and not on the wweb. I suppose there might be other ways to do this but I would think profiles would be the easiest way. Of course, NVDA uses scripts for various programs but that isn't what I had in mind.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2020 1:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 01:21 PM, Gene wrote:
What I'm saying is that jjust as NVDA and other screen-readers are customized to work in certain ways with certain programs,-
Did you read message, https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/message/79813, from Joseph Lee, that came in 30 minutes before you posted this? App/application specific behavior already exists, and has for quite a while. I don't think that any version of NVDA I've ever touched didn't have it, but I could be wrong about when it was introduced. I thought it had been present since day one, but am not sure about that.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner


Do you use plain text email or HTML-formatted? #poll-notice

 

Which of these two do you use routinely for whatever account you use to access Groups.io groups via the email interface?

NOTE:  While this poll is not NVDA related, it is directly related to trying to determine a root cause and fix an issue for email users of Groups.io.  That's why I'm asking.  I may contact folks who respond if I have additional questions about what you actually get at the end of your individual messages from Groups.io as part of tracking the issue down.  If the poll function is working correctly, the member identity of those who respond will not be public, though I will be able to see who responded which way.

Results


Re: How is verbosity decided

Sarah k Alawami
 

Actually many of the narrators I listen to say "quote" and "unquote" especially if "m reading histories which I do a lot. and if you have a quote within a quote within a quote it can get a little messy. so for me it is very much relevant I even use "quote" or "in quotes" when I'm teaching my classes as my voice might not be able to let the student know, or they might not be used to the way I speak when I do indicate quotes with my voice. I say block quotes are very much needed, for me.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 16 Dec 2020, at 10:19, Gene wrote:

I almost never have trouble knowing when something is being quoted from context. I have never read a talking book where the reader says something like block quote nor says quote, unquote, when quoting people. Context can tell you most or almost all of what you need to know in this respect.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2020 11:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 12:40 PM, Gene wrote:
Can you imagine the uproar if talking book readers identified bloc quotes, and figures that have no meaning except visually-
The problem being, Gene, is that they have meaning that has a visual presentation. In "the olden days" quotation levels were shown using however many > characters were necessary at the outset of every line. That still does get used in plain text.

Block quotes aren't about "pretty" or "no meaning except visually." They tell you, if you're keeping track of what was announced just before them, who's saying what. And even if someone's sloppy about attribution, it still gives you a clear indication that the writer currently writing is not the author of what's being presented as a block quote. That's not trivial information in a wide variety of contexts. The difference between someone like me who can see the actual formatting and know this, and a screen reader user, is that the latter cannot know this unless the presence of the beginning and end of a block quote is not announced.

I'm not arguing with you about what you, Gene, may or may not want. That's not up for argument, as it's a matter of taste. But you cannot characterize something like block quote announcement as a triviality in a great many contexts, and it's better that it be on by default, and able to be turned off, than off by default, for the reasons I've already mentioned.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner








Re: How is verbosity decided

 

On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 01:21 PM, Gene wrote:
What I'm saying is that jjust as NVDA and other screen-readers are customized to work in certain ways with certain programs,
-
Did you read message, https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/message/79813, from Joseph Lee, that came in 30 minutes before you posted this?  App/application specific behavior already exists, and has for quite a while.  I don't think that any version of NVDA I've ever touched didn't have it, but I could be wrong about when it was introduced.  I thought it had been present since day one, but am not sure about that.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: Silencing Reading of Numbers in NVDA

Tony Malykh
 

AH, I meant to use positive lookahead and lookbehind, not the negative ones. My brain was not working very clearly last night apparently. In case you still need the fancy one, here is the correct one:

(?<=,)\d+(?=,)

On 12/15/2020 11:49 PM, Bhavya shah wrote:
Dear Tony,

Thanks a bunch! The second one didn't work unfortunately, but the
first one does, so I should be good to go. Thanks for suggesting the
Phonetic Punctuations add-on but I don't think that will be necessary
in my case. Is there a good resource where I can understand the syntax
of regular expressions? I would like to learn more about them in order
to be able to write them independently in the future.

Thanks.

On 12/15/20, Tony Malykh <anton.malykh@gmail.com> wrote:
Just use a simple regular expression:

,\d+,

Or use negative lookahead and lookbehind to preserve the commas,
something like:

(?<!,)\d+(?!,)

You can either do it via speech dictionary to remove them completely, or
you can use my Phonetic Punctuation add-on to replace it with some short
sound - so that you will at least be aware that there's a number there.

HTH

On 12/15/2020 9:33 PM, Bhavya shah wrote:
Dear all,

I use NVDA 2020.3 and would like to disable reporting of all digits.
The number could be of varying length and would be bounded on its left
and right by commas. This may come off as an odd request, but I
require this for a very specific usage case. I am guessing there is a
way to construct a speech dictionary entry to achieve this; if so, if
you could compose and share it, that would be massively helpful.

I would greatly appreciate any assistance with the above.

Thanks.




Re: Outlook 365: Issue with announcement of selected text while composing mail

Luke Robinett <blindgroupsluke@...>
 

Hi,
Just giving this a bump because it’s been several days and I still haven’t heard anything from this group nor the GitHub community. Has anybody tried re-creating my issue, and, if so, were you able to? Thanks again.

On Dec 13, 2020, at 2:46 PM, Luke Robinett via groups.io <blindgroupsluke@...> wrote:



Hi folks,

 

I created an issue for this several days ago on GitHub but haven’t heard back yet so thought I’d run it by the group in the meantime. When I’m composing a new email in Outlook 365, I get strange behavior when selecting text by word. What I mean is, if I hold down shift and control and then use the left and right cursor keys to select text by words, only every other highlighted word is spoken aloud. For example, if I was selecting the words in the following sentence, from left to right, “I hope everyone is well,” I would hear the following with each press of the right arrow key: I, silence, everyone, silence, well.

NVDA 220.3 on Win10 Home. I hope this makes sense.

 

Thanks,

Luke

 


Re: How is verbosity decided

Gene
 

I can't answer that question but I think turning off links is going too far.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: zahra
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2020 12:18 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

i totally agree with you gene.
but i turned off all document formatting check boxes except reporting
page number.
is it possible that i define a shortcut for it and disable this option too?
for example: i press a shortcut key and nvda tells me the page number
which i am in, but dont say it when using SayAll or even when
navigating by using arrow keys.

On 12/16/20, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
I might create a ticket for this but it doesn't look to me as though the
system is designed to support such tickets. Where should such a question be

discussed?

I'm really annoyed that NVDA has created new verbosity that, while it might

be useful, should be off by default. And one item has no way to turn it
off. The announcement of figure and out of figure has no justification for

anyone but someone who is interested in evaluating a web page for some
purpose such as to determine how structures are used, completely irrelevant

to most or almost all readers. Yet we now constantly hear figure and out of

figure. Its distracting, it wastes time, and as I said, there is no setting

to turn it off and it shouldn't be on in the first place.

How are such decisions made and why does the prevailing philosophy seem to
be, leave almost all browse mode verbosity on by default? Who cares about
bloc quote and end of bloc quote. How many people want to hear every list
and embedded lists announced. The whole philosopy and intent of these
settings should be reviewed.

Gene







--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali


Re: How is verbosity decided

Gene
 

What I'm saying is that jjust as NVDA and other screen-readers are customized to work in certain ways with certain programs, maybe its time to have included in the program profiles that will cause different levels of verbosity for,, say Outlook or Thunderbird and a browser.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2020 11:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

Hi,
These can be configured through document formatting settings panel, and can be customized based on which app you are using. This is the reason why app-specific configuration profiles exist, and in some cases, these settings can be toggled off to achieve alternate say all (through a profile).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2020 9:40 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

I've filed a bug report but I didn't know about feature requests. I'll see what I can find. Maybe its time for NVDA to have profiles in the program as installed that would, for example, read bloc quote when popular e-mail programs are being used but not when browsing. Can you imagine the uproar if talking book readers identified bloc quotes, and figures that have no meaning except visually, they are a way of presenting text which would be read exactly the same way, such as a link, and other material of very questionable value?

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2020 10:52 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 06:57 AM, Gene wrote:
Who cares about bloc quote and end of bloc quote.- On that one, I know scads of people who care about this, particularly when dealing with email messages involving a lot of back and forth.

On GitHub for NVAccess there exist two options as far as the creation of an
Issue: Bug Report and Feature Request. I'd say that yours falls in to the
category of Feature Request, since NVDA is running as currently designed, but that design is problematic for you as an end user.

I thought that NVDA had what I think JAWS calls verbosity levels, but I cannot seem to recall what they're called if they do, or under what settings they're tweaked.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.
We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner


Re: How is verbosity decided

Gene
 

I almost never have trouble knowing when something is being quoted from context. I have never read a talking book where the reader says something like block qquote nor says quote, unquote, when quoting people. Context can tell you most or almost all of what you need to know in this respect.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2020 11:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 12:40 PM, Gene wrote:
Can you imagine the uproar if talking book readers identified bloc quotes, and figures that have no meaning except visually-
The problem being, Gene, is that they have meaning that has a visual presentation. In "the olden days" quotation levels were shown using however many > characters were necessary at the outset of every line. That still does get used in plain text.

Block quotes aren't about "pretty" or "no meaning except visually." They tell you, if you're keeping track of what was announced just before them, who's saying what. And even if someone's sloppy about attribution, it still gives you a clear indication that the writer currently writing is not the author of what's being presented as a block quote. That's not trivial information in a wide variety of contexts. The difference between someone like me who can see the actual formatting and know this, and a screen reader user, is that the latter cannot know this unless the presence of the beginning and end of a block quote is not announced.

I'm not arguing with you about what you, Gene, may or may not want. That's not up for argument, as it's a matter of taste. But you cannot characterize something like block quote announcement as a triviality in a great many contexts, and it's better that it be on by default, and able to be turned off, than off by default, for the reasons I've already mentioned.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner

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