Date   

Re: SPSS and NVDA

Sharad Koirala
 

hi,

my work also requires regular use of SPSS which I have been skipping on my own loss.

I had raised the issue about it in the NVDAcon Asia which happened around 2015-16 where Joseph Lee was very elaborate in answering the question but the technicalities could not go into my head :) (I am not a wise tech user). Anyway, the conclusion was that SPSS was not accessible with NVDA and changes were to be made by both IBM (the developer of SPSS) and NVDA to make it usable with a screen reader.

Since then, I have been waiting for the development.

Sincerely yours,
Dr. Sharad Koirala
Lecturer
Department of Community Medicine
Gandaki Medical College, Pokhara, Nepal


Re: SPSS and NVDA

 

William,

          You're quite welcome.  I have to say that my experience with SPSS in the very, very distant past (about 40 years ago), and as a sighted computer science major, showed it to be more than a little inaccessible, and I don't mean in the screen reader sense.  But, of course, since stats was "not my thing" I was less than motivated to dig deeply.

           It's amazing how long SPSS (Statistical Package for the Social Sciences - or at least I presume that's your reference) has been around.  I think it's almost as old as I am!
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: SPSS and NVDA

William
 

Brian,

Thanks.

In fact before posting this topic, I have searched this topics on the archive and found some relevant discussions in the past.

Recently I came across a post on Reddit mentioned that SPSS is now accessible with JAWS, so I wanna ask if someone here have experience with this software.



Brian Vogel 於 30/12/2020 23:47 寫道:

If you have not already done so, have a look at these topics returned from a group archive search:  https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/search?ev=0&q=SPSS&ct=1 

SPSS has been discussed on a number of occasions, but I cannot recall what the ultimate conclusion(s) were about it and accessibility.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 09:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.
-
I have intentionally quoted Sarah above, and ask those in high dudgeon to reread, and carefully reconsider, what's been said.  There are many of us who teach or have taught mixed audiences.  What she say is that she says "click this" or "click that," which is vague enough to make the this or that indeterminate.  I doubt very much that Sarah's a sadist and that the "this" or "that" are not comprehensible to her target audience.

Her statement, "they need to learn how to translate that into whatever that means for them," is a direct reflection of my earlier statement that you really do need to understand very basic things like "click on" means "gain focus on and select," as pointing and clicking both gains focus and makes the selection happen in a single step.

I doubt, very much, that she is making reference to situations where complete neophytes that have no computer experience at all are involved.  If she does, then even I'll declare her a sadist (and a masochist, too, because taking that teaching approach with "the unwashed" is a recipe for driving oneself insane in short order).

But it would not be unreasonable for her, or me, to believe that were we to say something like, "Click on the gear icon," and the listener did not know that the gear icon was announced as settings, that the question is not, and should not be, "What do you mean by click on?," but, "Is that gear icon announced as settings when I gain focus on it?"

It's the translation between "click on" and "gain focus and select" that should be automatic, not necessarily the thing being clicked on/focused upon and selected.  I doubt that she, or anyone instructing, will not answer reasonable questions.  But not all questions are reasonable in all venues.  Were someone in, say, a college level course to ask, "What do you mean by click on?," even if they were blind, they do not belong there to begin with.  It is perfectly reasonable to presume certain knowledge in certain times and places.  And if you're in adult education you as an instructor can and should generally presume that whatever knowledge is needed prior to enrolling in a course should already be there.  Not every setting is, or should be, remedial.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Brian,


You bring up very good points here. Yes, it's up to the beginner to ask questions if he or she doesn't understand something. That way the person assisting can give the proper steps for doing a given task.


Rosemarie

On 12/30/2020 6:37 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 09:22 PM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:

I too hope Sarah doesn't teach older computer users or beginners to the
computer.
-
And I will say that this is, in no way, limited to Sarah.  I have said that I absolutely, positively refuse to presume that most users I encounter anywhere, but particularly on groups such as this, are complete beginners or "know next to nothing" barring their having identified themselves that way.

I have the patience of a saint when I now such is required, and each and every member here or anywhere as far as groups/forums goes, is there of their own volition.  Potential assistants cannot and do not read minds.  If you are a complete beginner, and do not state such clearly, it is perfectly reasonable for someone to assume you are most likely not.  And if you are, and the potential assistant does not have the temperament to deal with such, they can and generally will simply skip trying to assist.

I have had private and very intense discussions with another member here about just this issue.  His position is that we should assume virtually nothing and presume complete (or nearly so) neophyte status for each and every question.  I feel, and have stated repeatedly, that I think this is ludicrous.  By the time most find a venue such as this, they are generally well beyond the complete beginner stage, so that should be the default presumption.

I have put together a list of assumptions I make on each and every group I either own or moderate, and won't post them all (though, believe me, I'm tempted), but these are definitely pertinent to this discussion:

1. You remember that everyone who is a member of the group is here by their own choice, and that help provided is on a volunteer basis.  That means that there could be a significant time delay between when a question is asked and when it may be answered.  It also may not be answered, this happens.  When a question is not answered, it’s because no one knows the answer, not because it wasn’t seen.  Please don’t ask again hours later or the next day.

1. That you read, absorb, and accept the following:

It is impossible to help individuals who will not listen to advice unless they *like* that advice. Being a good assistant is not about making the person assisted "feel good," but about both asking the right (and sometimes hard) questions as well as giving the information necessary to achieve the desired result. Getting help is a two-way street, and those asking for help have work they must do, too, when asked. They also need to be ready to let go of what they'd like to do, and instead do what's been asked for by the person offering assistance.

Those receiving assistance are free to reject advice, you are also entitled to ask for clarification, but if you don’t want to do what your assistant is asking, then state that so that you can both can move along.  Assistants have every right to assist as they see fit, and those being assisted to either follow or reject the option(s) presented.  An assistant is within their rights to withdraw support at any time, for any reason.

------------
These groups are not, and should not be considered, pure Q&A venues.  They are about increasing personal skills and independence as much as answering questions, and very often doing the former means not spoon-feeding the answers, but guiding the questioner through the steps to, in a careful way, find them for themselves.  And in the end, you remember things better when you've had assistance in working your own way through something to find your own way of doing it.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[ Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states: ] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner





Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 09:22 PM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
I too hope Sarah doesn't teach older computer users or beginners to the computer.
-
And I will say that this is, in no way, limited to Sarah.  I have said that I absolutely, positively refuse to presume that most users I encounter anywhere, but particularly on groups such as this, are complete beginners or "know next to nothing" barring their having identified themselves that way.

I have the patience of a saint when I now such is required, and each and every member here or anywhere as far as groups/forums goes, is there of their own volition.  Potential assistants cannot and do not read minds.  If you are a complete beginner, and do not state such clearly, it is perfectly reasonable for someone to assume you are most likely not.  And if you are, and the potential assistant does not have the temperament to deal with such, they can and generally will simply skip trying to assist.

I have had private and very intense discussions with another member here about just this issue.  His position is that we should assume virtually nothing and presume complete (or nearly so) neophyte status for each and every question.  I feel, and have stated repeatedly, that I think this is ludicrous.  By the time most find a venue such as this, they are generally well beyond the complete beginner stage, so that should be the default presumption.

I have put together a list of assumptions I make on each and every group I either own or moderate, and won't post them all (though, believe me, I'm tempted), but these are definitely pertinent to this discussion:

1.        You remember that everyone who is a member of the group is here by their own choice, and that help provided is on a volunteer basis.  That means that there could be a significant time delay between when a question is asked and when it may be answered.  It also may not be answered, this happens.  When a question is not answered, it’s because no one knows the answer, not because it wasn’t seen.  Please don’t ask again hours later or the next day.

1.        That you read, absorb, and accept the following:

It is impossible to help individuals who will not listen to advice unless they like that advice. Being a good assistant is not about making the person assisted "feel good," but about both asking the right (and sometimes hard) questions as well as giving the information necessary to achieve the desired result. Getting help is a two-way street, and those asking for help have work they must do, too, when asked. They also need to be ready to let go of what they'd like to do, and instead do what's been asked for by the person offering assistance.

 

               Those receiving assistance are free to reject advice, you are also entitled to ask for clarification, but if you don’t want to do what your assistant is asking, then state that so that you can both can move along.  Assistants have every right to assist as they see fit, and those being assisted to either follow or reject the option(s) presented.  An assistant is within their rights to withdraw support at any time, for any reason.

------------ 
These groups are not, and should not be considered, pure Q&A venues.  They are about increasing personal skills and independence as much as answering questions, and very often doing the former means not spoon-feeding the answers, but guiding the questioner through the steps to, in a careful way, find them for themselves.  And in the end, you remember things better when you've had assistance in working your own way through something to find your own way of doing it.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

Thats a valid point, often I have told a sightling where to click and its not that at all.

The reader layout and what it translates maybe completely different.

On 31/12/2020 3:24 pm, Chris Smart wrote:
Sarah, if you're reading this, remember that what your screen reader calls something may not at all be what a sighted people sees. You may say "click on where it says 'sound settings'" and they may only see a little icon of a microphone.  How do you account for discrepancies like that?




On 2020-12-30 9:22 p.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
I agree. If I was a beginning computer user, I wouldn't want Sarah as my instructor. If she's gonna tell people to click on something, she might as well say "point and click". I say that because I actually had a teacher yell at me because I couldn't use the mouse to click on something. I too hope Sarah doesn't teach older computer users or beginners to the computer.



On 12/30/2020 6:12 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with. I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.


Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just  responding to what I dfeel is an absurd approach.


Mary


On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. <http://www.tffppodcast.com>

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine. <http://tffppodcast.com/shadow>

to subscribe to the feed click here <http://feeds.feedburner.com/tffp> and you can also follow us on twitter <http://twitter.com/tffppodcast>

Our discord <http://discord.tffppodcast.com> is where you will know when we go live on twitch. <http://twitch.tv/ke7zum> Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page <http://lbry.tv/@ke7zum> and my tffp lbry page <http://lbry.tv/@tffp> You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here <Http://patreon.com/tffppodcast>

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:

    On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:

        You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight
        with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or
        there. They have no clue that you are a blind user. I’ve
        encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.

    -
    Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while
    at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

    I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple
    issues.  But, at the same time, there are "click here and click
    there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there
    are others that are impossible to follow.  There are plenty of
    sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and
    particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an
    individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader. If you
    ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never
    been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how
    they think that would work, they generally can't answer. I could
    not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz,
    and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in
    the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually
    driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to
    conceive of via other modalities.  Those of us who see "swim in
    sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious
    reasons, that's a taken for granted thing.  Just like those of us
    who can hear do the same for audition.  You just don't think about
    sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted,
    when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

    I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some
    techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is
    absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support -
    they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are
    doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or
    stupidity.  It's probably ignorance more than anything. But
    sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when
    they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work. Were
    someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I
    can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is
    going to get both sides of the equation something they need.  You
    get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in,
    however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to
    reference things that is not purely visual.  They'll usually keep
    screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if
    you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be
    willing to rephrase.  For certain things, it's worth trying to get
    the point across that giving reference points, is something worth
    doing.  A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper
    left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link
    very near to it?  If I can find that, I can likely find what's
    next to it."   There really are not, and never will be, enough
    technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to
    provide support for every product that exists, particularly for
    smaller companies.  But many techs really want to help, they just
    have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how
    to an extent while getting the help you need.

    All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well
    that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very
    passive and unwilling to work with you) techs. But there are lots
    of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless
    about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless
    about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the
    middle where you can both get what you want.

    I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to
    tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make
    their way back into "the world at large" that they would
    constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to
    educate the clueless.  It's not a choice, because that's another
    population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that
    there will never come a time when most people they meet and
    interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain
    injured or what a brain injured individual might need. The thing
    that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that
    most blind people will not is the presumption that they are
    incapable of understanding a very great many things that they
    can.  And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used
    to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel
    upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping
    composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and
    what you're capable of.

    Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added
    responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of
    their daily life where the majority do not.  But I do not ever see
    any way that will change.  It's the result of relative sizes of
    given demographics in the population at large.  When you're a
    niche, you're a niche.  Rebelling against the larger world because
    you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger
    world.  In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in
    most instances they don't have to.  But that doesn't mean that
    those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many
    really would love to help if they are taught how that's
    appropriately given.  And, believe me, the last thing you want is
    to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of
    the time.

    --
    Brian -Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

    [Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by
    Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] /Pleased with
    the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of
    where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a
    bottomless supply of crazy./

            ~ Brendan Buck, /former adviser to Speakers of the House
    Paul Ryan and John Boehner/











Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

Usually with bline I try to tell the shortcuts.

To be honest I get the sightlings to do the same unless they find what they are supposed to click.

With my frinds that know what's what I say click that and this.

If I know what that is and where it should be.

Of course I don't know where to click as if I enter a menu it may be on either side so I say click in this menu and click this icon, the menu is called whatever it is and it should be somewhere on the bar where ever it is, that does narrow it down.

Of course some stuff can be a bit visual.



On 31/12/2020 3:12 pm, Mary Otten wrote:

Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with. I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.


Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just  responding to what I dfeel is an absurd approach.


Mary


On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:
You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user.  I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.
-
Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple issues.  But, at the same time, there are "click here and click there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there are others that are impossible to follow.  There are plenty of sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader.  If you ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how they think that would work, they generally can't answer.  I could not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz, and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to conceive of via other modalities.  Those of us who see "swim in sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious reasons, that's a taken for granted thing.  Just like those of us who can hear do the same for audition.  You just don't think about sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted, when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support - they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or stupidity.  It's probably ignorance more than anything.  But sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work.  Were someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is going to get both sides of the equation something they need.  You get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in, however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to reference things that is not purely visual.  They'll usually keep screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be willing to rephrase.  For certain things, it's worth trying to get the point across that giving reference points, is something worth doing.  A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link very near to it?  If I can find that, I can likely find what's next to it."   There really are not, and never will be, enough technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to provide support for every product that exists, particularly for smaller companies.  But many techs really want to help, they just have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how to an extent while getting the help you need.

All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very passive and unwilling to work with you) techs.  But there are lots of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the middle where you can both get what you want.

I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make their way back into "the world at large" that they would constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to educate the clueless.  It's not a choice, because that's another population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that there will never come a time when most people they meet and interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain injured or what a brain injured individual might need.  The thing that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that most blind people will not is the presumption that they are incapable of understanding a very great many things that they can.  And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and what you're capable of.

Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of their daily life where the majority do not.  But I do not ever see any way that will change.  It's the result of relative sizes of given demographics in the population at large.  When you're a niche, you're a niche.  Rebelling against the larger world because you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger world.  In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in most instances they don't have to.  But that doesn't mean that those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many really would love to help if they are taught how that's appropriately given.  And, believe me, the last thing you want is to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of the time.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Chris Smart
 

Sarah, if you're reading this, remember that what your screen reader calls something may not at all be what a sighted people sees. You may say "click on where it says 'sound settings'" and they may only see a little icon of a microphone.  How do you account for discrepancies like that?

On 2020-12-30 9:22 p.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
I agree. If I was a beginning computer user, I wouldn't want Sarah as my instructor. If she's gonna tell people to click on something, she might as well say "point and click". I say that because I actually had a teacher yell at me because I couldn't use the mouse to click on something. I too hope Sarah doesn't teach older computer users or beginners to the computer.



On 12/30/2020 6:12 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with. I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.


Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just  responding to what I dfeel is an absurd approach.


Mary


On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. <http://www.tffppodcast.com>

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine. <http://tffppodcast.com/shadow>

to subscribe to the feed click here <http://feeds.feedburner.com/tffp> and you can also follow us on twitter <http://twitter.com/tffppodcast>

Our discord <http://discord.tffppodcast.com> is where you will know when we go live on twitch. <http://twitch.tv/ke7zum> Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page <http://lbry.tv/@ke7zum> and my tffp lbry page <http://lbry.tv/@tffp> You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here <Http://patreon.com/tffppodcast>

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:

    On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:

        You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight
        with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or
        there. They have no clue that you are a blind user. I’ve
        encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.

    -
    Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while
    at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

    I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple
    issues.  But, at the same time, there are "click here and click
    there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there
    are others that are impossible to follow.  There are plenty of
    sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and
    particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an
    individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader. If you
    ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never
    been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how
    they think that would work, they generally can't answer. I could
    not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz,
    and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in
    the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually
    driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to
    conceive of via other modalities.  Those of us who see "swim in
    sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious
    reasons, that's a taken for granted thing.  Just like those of us
    who can hear do the same for audition.  You just don't think about
    sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted,
    when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

    I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some
    techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is
    absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support -
    they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are
    doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or
    stupidity.  It's probably ignorance more than anything. But
    sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when
    they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work. Were
    someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I
    can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is
    going to get both sides of the equation something they need.  You
    get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in,
    however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to
    reference things that is not purely visual.  They'll usually keep
    screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if
    you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be
    willing to rephrase.  For certain things, it's worth trying to get
    the point across that giving reference points, is something worth
    doing.  A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper
    left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link
    very near to it?  If I can find that, I can likely find what's
    next to it."   There really are not, and never will be, enough
    technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to
    provide support for every product that exists, particularly for
    smaller companies.  But many techs really want to help, they just
    have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how
    to an extent while getting the help you need.

    All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well
    that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very
    passive and unwilling to work with you) techs. But there are lots
    of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless
    about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless
    about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the
    middle where you can both get what you want.

    I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to
    tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make
    their way back into "the world at large" that they would
    constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to
    educate the clueless.  It's not a choice, because that's another
    population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that
    there will never come a time when most people they meet and
    interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain
    injured or what a brain injured individual might need. The thing
    that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that
    most blind people will not is the presumption that they are
    incapable of understanding a very great many things that they
    can.  And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used
    to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel
    upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping
    composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and
    what you're capable of.

    Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added
    responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of
    their daily life where the majority do not.  But I do not ever see
    any way that will change.  It's the result of relative sizes of
    given demographics in the population at large.  When you're a
    niche, you're a niche.  Rebelling against the larger world because
    you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger
    world.  In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in
    most instances they don't have to.  But that doesn't mean that
    those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many
    really would love to help if they are taught how that's
    appropriately given.  And, believe me, the last thing you want is
    to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of
    the time.

    --
    Brian -Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

    [Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by
    Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] /Pleased with
    the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of
    where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a
    bottomless supply of crazy./

            ~ Brendan Buck, /former adviser to Speakers of the House
    Paul Ryan and John Boehner/








Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

I agree. If I was a beginning computer user, I wouldn't want Sarah as my instructor. If she's gonna tell people to click on something, she might as well say "point and click". I say that because I actually had a teacher yell at me because I couldn't use the mouse to click on something. I too hope Sarah doesn't teach older computer users or beginners to the computer.

On 12/30/2020 6:12 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with. I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.


Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just  responding to what I dfeel is an absurd approach.


Mary


On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. <http://www.tffppodcast.com>

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine. <http://tffppodcast.com/shadow>

to subscribe to the feed click here <http://feeds.feedburner.com/tffp> and you can also follow us on twitter <http://twitter.com/tffppodcast>

Our discord <http://discord.tffppodcast.com> is where you will know when we go live on twitch. <http://twitch.tv/ke7zum> Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page <http://lbry.tv/@ke7zum> and my tffp lbry page <http://lbry.tv/@tffp> You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here <Http://patreon.com/tffppodcast>

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:

    On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:

        You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight
        with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or
        there. They have no clue that you are a blind user. I’ve
        encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.

    -
    Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while
    at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

    I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple
    issues.  But, at the same time, there are "click here and click
    there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there
    are others that are impossible to follow.  There are plenty of
    sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and
    particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an
    individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader.  If you
    ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never
    been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how
    they think that would work, they generally can't answer.  I could
    not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz,
    and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in
    the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually
    driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to
    conceive of via other modalities.  Those of us who see "swim in
    sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious
    reasons, that's a taken for granted thing.  Just like those of us
    who can hear do the same for audition.  You just don't think about
    sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted,
    when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

    I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some
    techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is
    absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support -
    they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are
    doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or
    stupidity.  It's probably ignorance more than anything.  But
    sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when
    they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work.  Were
    someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I
    can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is
    going to get both sides of the equation something they need.  You
    get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in,
    however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to
    reference things that is not purely visual.  They'll usually keep
    screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if
    you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be
    willing to rephrase.  For certain things, it's worth trying to get
    the point across that giving reference points, is something worth
    doing.  A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper
    left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link
    very near to it?  If I can find that, I can likely find what's
    next to it."   There really are not, and never will be, enough
    technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to
    provide support for every product that exists, particularly for
    smaller companies.  But many techs really want to help, they just
    have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how
    to an extent while getting the help you need.

    All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well
    that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very
    passive and unwilling to work with you) techs. But there are lots
    of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless
    about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless
    about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the
    middle where you can both get what you want.

    I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to
    tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make
    their way back into "the world at large" that they would
    constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to
    educate the clueless.  It's not a choice, because that's another
    population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that
    there will never come a time when most people they meet and
    interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain
    injured or what a brain injured individual might need.  The thing
    that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that
    most blind people will not is the presumption that they are
    incapable of understanding a very great many things that they
    can.  And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used
    to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel
    upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping
    composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and
    what you're capable of.

    Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added
    responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of
    their daily life where the majority do not.  But I do not ever see
    any way that will change.  It's the result of relative sizes of
    given demographics in the population at large.  When you're a
    niche, you're a niche.  Rebelling against the larger world because
    you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger
    world.  In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in
    most instances they don't have to.  But that doesn't mean that
    those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many
    really would love to help if they are taught how that's
    appropriately given.  And, believe me, the last thing you want is
    to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of
    the time.

    --
    Brian -Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

    [Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by
    Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] /Pleased with
    the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of
    where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a
    bottomless supply of crazy./

            ~ Brendan Buck, /former adviser to Speakers of the House
    Paul Ryan and John Boehner/





Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Chris Smart
 

Sarah reports and un-follows people who include too many emoji's in their Twitter handles or tweets.

So yeah, that's what you're dealing with there. LOL



On 2020-12-30 9:12 p.m., Mary Otten wrote:

Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with. I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.


Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just  responding to what I dfeel is an absurd approach.


Mary


On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:
You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user.  I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.
-
Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple issues.  But, at the same time, there are "click here and click there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there are others that are impossible to follow.  There are plenty of sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader.  If you ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how they think that would work, they generally can't answer.  I could not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz, and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to conceive of via other modalities.  Those of us who see "swim in sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious reasons, that's a taken for granted thing.  Just like those of us who can hear do the same for audition.  You just don't think about sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted, when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support - they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or stupidity.  It's probably ignorance more than anything.  But sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work.  Were someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is going to get both sides of the equation something they need.  You get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in, however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to reference things that is not purely visual.  They'll usually keep screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be willing to rephrase.  For certain things, it's worth trying to get the point across that giving reference points, is something worth doing.  A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link very near to it?  If I can find that, I can likely find what's next to it."   There really are not, and never will be, enough technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to provide support for every product that exists, particularly for smaller companies.  But many techs really want to help, they just have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how to an extent while getting the help you need.

All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very passive and unwilling to work with you) techs.  But there are lots of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the middle where you can both get what you want.

I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make their way back into "the world at large" that they would constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to educate the clueless.  It's not a choice, because that's another population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that there will never come a time when most people they meet and interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain injured or what a brain injured individual might need.  The thing that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that most blind people will not is the presumption that they are incapable of understanding a very great many things that they can.  And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and what you're capable of.

Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of their daily life where the majority do not.  But I do not ever see any way that will change.  It's the result of relative sizes of given demographics in the population at large.  When you're a niche, you're a niche.  Rebelling against the larger world because you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger world.  In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in most instances they don't have to.  But that doesn't mean that those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many really would love to help if they are taught how that's appropriately given.  And, believe me, the last thing you want is to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of the time.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Mary Otten
 

Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with. I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.


Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just  responding to what I dfeel is an absurd approach.


Mary


On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:
You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user.  I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.
-
Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple issues.  But, at the same time, there are "click here and click there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there are others that are impossible to follow.  There are plenty of sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader.  If you ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how they think that would work, they generally can't answer.  I could not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz, and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to conceive of via other modalities.  Those of us who see "swim in sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious reasons, that's a taken for granted thing.  Just like those of us who can hear do the same for audition.  You just don't think about sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted, when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support - they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or stupidity.  It's probably ignorance more than anything.  But sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work.  Were someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is going to get both sides of the equation something they need.  You get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in, however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to reference things that is not purely visual.  They'll usually keep screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be willing to rephrase.  For certain things, it's worth trying to get the point across that giving reference points, is something worth doing.  A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link very near to it?  If I can find that, I can likely find what's next to it."   There really are not, and never will be, enough technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to provide support for every product that exists, particularly for smaller companies.  But many techs really want to help, they just have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how to an extent while getting the help you need.

All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very passive and unwilling to work with you) techs.  But there are lots of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the middle where you can both get what you want.

I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make their way back into "the world at large" that they would constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to educate the clueless.  It's not a choice, because that's another population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that there will never come a time when most people they meet and interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain injured or what a brain injured individual might need.  The thing that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that most blind people will not is the presumption that they are incapable of understanding a very great many things that they can.  And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and what you're capable of.

Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of their daily life where the majority do not.  But I do not ever see any way that will change.  It's the result of relative sizes of given demographics in the population at large.  When you're a niche, you're a niche.  Rebelling against the larger world because you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger world.  In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in most instances they don't have to.  But that doesn't mean that those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many really would love to help if they are taught how that's appropriately given.  And, believe me, the last thing you want is to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of the time.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Sarah k Alawami
 

Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

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On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:
You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user.  I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.
-
Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple issues.  But, at the same time, there are "click here and click there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there are others that are impossible to follow.  There are plenty of sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader.  If you ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how they think that would work, they generally can't answer.  I could not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz, and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to conceive of via other modalities.  Those of us who see "swim in sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious reasons, that's a taken for granted thing.  Just like those of us who can hear do the same for audition.  You just don't think about sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted, when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support - they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or stupidity.  It's probably ignorance more than anything.  But sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work.  Were someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is going to get both sides of the equation something they need.  You get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in, however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to reference things that is not purely visual.  They'll usually keep screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be willing to rephrase.  For certain things, it's worth trying to get the point across that giving reference points, is something worth doing.  A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link very near to it?  If I can find that, I can likely find what's next to it."   There really are not, and never will be, enough technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to provide support for every product that exists, particularly for smaller companies.  But many techs really want to help, they just have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how to an extent while getting the help you need.

All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very passive and unwilling to work with you) techs.  But there are lots of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the middle where you can both get what you want.

I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make their way back into "the world at large" that they would constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to educate the clueless.  It's not a choice, because that's another population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that there will never come a time when most people they meet and interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain injured or what a brain injured individual might need.  The thing that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that most blind people will not is the presumption that they are incapable of understanding a very great many things that they can.  And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and what you're capable of.

Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of their daily life where the majority do not.  But I do not ever see any way that will change.  It's the result of relative sizes of given demographics in the population at large.  When you're a niche, you're a niche.  Rebelling against the larger world because you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger world.  In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in most instances they don't have to.  But that doesn't mean that those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many really would love to help if they are taught how that's appropriately given.  And, believe me, the last thing you want is to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of the time.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 08:35 PM, Shaun Everiss wrote:
simply only know the mouse and not the board.
-
And, why should they?  Each and every one of us here knows what we need to know to do what we need or want to do in a way that's most convenient for ourselves in our daily lives.

I would wager to bet, and have actually observed, many totally blind and always totally blind individuals who have absolutely no idea of how a mouse works, even if they know what it is for in the abstract.

There's nothing wrong with either group.  They use the tools that work for them.  It's not incumbent on either to be incredibly well versed in the actual workings of the methods of the others.  And note well I said actual workings.  That's completely different and separate from being able to do translation in instruction sets from one to the other.

No one is obligated to know how you (the generic you) do anything when that differs significantly from how they do it.  That's irrelevant to both sides of the equation, in the vast majority of cases, and expecting that either side will routinely be well versed in the actual methods of the other is unrealistic.  It's the odd bird that is even close to equally proficient with both sides (or all sides, as there are often more than two, sometimes many more).
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

Agreed,

Sadly sometimes the sighted can be more blind than the blind and not know where to go or simply only know the mouse and not the board.


On 31/12/2020 9:12 am, Mike Capelle wrote:

We all live in a sighted world.


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Gene
 

That's a good description. of course, such information wouldn't be given in tutorials or other training material but its very interesting.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 7:01 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Gene,

It's hard to describe something visual to someone who cannot see (and has never seen), but I'll do my darndest. Menus are, for lack of a better way of explaining it, framed. There is usually no change in background color, but because they completely overlay what was formerly visible beneath them, and there are lines not only at the edges of the menu, but within a menu that separate groups (much like there are function groups in the ribbon interface, which sprung from that convention).

It's the rough visual equivalent of a raised embossed line on a sheet of heavy paper at the edge of the menu and dividing the groups within that menu itself. Whether or not you read Braille, anyone who ran their finger across a paper surface so embossed, even if they were sighted but blindfolded, would immediately recognize the presence of that raised line and be able to follow it with their finger. That's precisely what you're doing analogously with vision. It just sticks out because of how it overlays and disturbs the visual field you've been working with. It's both impossible to ignore and impossible to mistake visually for anything else.
--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner


Re: NVDA using braille in multi-lingual text environment

Mary Otten
 

I was talking with a friend of mine who uses JAWS at work. He says that when using braille, he can see multi-language text properly presented in braille. I am not trying to do a JAWS is better post here. I am, however, interested to know if something like that could be made possible with NVDA. Apparently, in apps, such as Word, most web browsers and mail clients, if text is properly tagged with regard to its language, you get this seamless switching of braille tables in JAWS that presents the text properly. And it should do the same with speech, if the speech profile you have enabled has voices in it that will properly read your text. I know that does not happen with NVDA, because I can set my speech to my Ivona voices, where I have both Russian and English, but the language does not switch when I'm looking at a mixed language page. That is, unless there has been a recent change, since I haven't tried any mixed language pages on my pc recently, because it didn't work before, and I hadn't seen any notices that this had been changed.


Mary

On 12/30/2020 9:55 AM, Jason White via groups.io wrote:

On 12/30/20 12:29 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
I have recently ordered a braille display. One of the things I'd like to do with it is access multi-lingual texts, e.g. websites, which have both English and cyrillic alphabets in use. In order to do that efficiently, one would need to have a braille table that included both of these alphabets, grade II English and uncontracted Russian, active at the same time, or somehow have a combined table with both at once. Is that possible?
It's possible, but I don't know whether such a table is available. Note also that the BrailleExtender add-on for NVDA allows you to switch tables easily - not what you need in this case, but at least a short-term solution.






Re: How to turn off NVDA

Blaster
 

Does exiting NVDA using the NVDA key plus the letter N key, then
choosing "Exit" from the menu give you a different result?

HTH,
Blaster

On 12/30/20, Arlene <nedster66@gmail.com> wrote:
If you did all 3 steps turning off NVDA. Once you hear the exiting sound
then there’s silence. I don’t think you can use its key commands once its
gone. You probably can but you’ll hear nothing. If you entered on a
desktop short cut it wil open but you won’t hear what you opened.



Sent from Mail for Windows 10



From: Tyler Spivey
Sent: December 30, 2020 11:21 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How to turn off NVDA



Can you tell us exactly what happens when you turn off NVDA (or record

it)? Here's what should happen:

1. Press NVDA+q to quit. It should pop up the Exit NVDA dialog.

2. Press enter. You should hear the descending sound indicating NVDA exited.

If you don't, check the log by going to the NVDA menu, Tools, View log.

Can you still use NVDA commands after you do that?



On 12/30/2020 10:40 AM, Food Posse wrote:

What a wonderful group!!
To answer what folks on this list so helpfully offered and asked:
Unfortunately, this is her own personal computer and the only one she
has so no option to change computers. Narrator is pre-installed but she
really wants NVDA.
It is definitely NVDA and not Narrator. Narrator is set to only use the
Caps Lock with a voice higher in pitch and speed to differentiate. NVDA
only with Insert. This was a really good idea since we did not think of
it!
We applied the suggestion to Reset NVDA configuration to factory default
but the same thing continues.
We uninstalled NVDA through the Apps & features settings option. No
remaining folders with NVDA. Then downloaded a new copy of NVDA to
install.
This is a new computer and we only installed and customized a couple of
programs so it is not too much of a beast to reinstall windows and do it
all again. But this will take some time so I wanted to test some of the
other suggestions first.
But some thoughts are coming to mind that I want to further investigate
before a complete wipe. Assuming the os is not corrupt, then something
is keeping an instance of NVDA active or NVDA is attaching itself to
something active like a utility so I want to follow that logic a bit
without going indefinitely down a rabbit hole!
Any other ideas is most welcome!
On 12/29/2020 2:30 PM, hurrikennyandopo ... wrote:
Hi
When you said you fully uninstalled nvda was that only from program
and features?
There is another area where the settings are keaped that should be
deleted if you are having problems if the nvda.ini file mucks up.
After NvDA has been uninstalled from program and features do the
following.
Press the windows key + the letter R it will bring up a run dialogue
box then type the following %appdata% then press the enter key.
The next screen that comes up will give you a list of directories
find the one called nvda then delete it out then close the screen with
the alt + f4 key.
then reinstall nvda. It might be a good idea actually to grab a fresh
copy of it from nvaccess then reinstall it to the pc.
Just in case you got a bad down load before.
Use the narrator screen reader to do the above unless you have some
sight to do it.
Did you try a factory reset of nvda? this some times fixes any problems.
Use the nvda key + letter N to bring up the menu when it is running
then arrow down to Reset configuration to factory defaults then press
the enter key.
Make sure also that when you go to set it up again you see the message
like which layout, do you want to use the caps lock key as a modifier
start nvda at startup etc.
I think the short cut to do the reset is nvda key + ctrl + R 3 times.
GGene nz
On 30/12/2020 4:58 am, Food Posse wrote:
Thank you for the troubleshooting efforts.
We did not select the option to launch NVDA at windows login. But
even if it was, sounds like NVDA should not auto-launch after closing
unless activated by a person. We did not change any other NVDA
default settings.
So we uninstalled and reinstalled NVDA but the same thing happens -
Insert+Q, dialog box open, default option is already Exit, dialog box
closes but NVDA continues to read the screen. Then when forced to
close through the Task Manager, NVDA still automatically relaunches
at various times like launching an app.
This is a new system so it should be pretty clean. There are very few
programs other than what came pre-installed with the laptop. AVG was
downloaded to confirm no viruses on the computer or on the NVDA exe
before we reinstalled. We even checked the startup options in the
Task Manager and NVDA is not on the list. Our friend really wants
NVDA but we are not sure what else to try.
On 12/28/2020 3:05 PM, Gene wrote:
I suspect the reason NVDA automatically comes on when set to run at
the login screen when the secure desktop comes up may be that NVDA
loads another version of itself to run when the secure desktop
opens. My guess is that there is a relation between this and the
setting to automatically run at the login screen. Perhaps one of
the developers will discuss the matter.
Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Monday, December 28, 2020 2:00 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How to turn off NVDA
On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 02:21 PM, Bob Cavanaugh wrote:
Actually, this isn't always the case. If the option to use NVDA on the
log-on screen is checked, it annoyingly pops up on every screen that
requires administrative action, and stays there until you shut it off.-
This is news to me, and good information to have. Most of the folks
I've worked with who are using NVDA have their systems set up to log
them straight in to their desktops on system (re)start, so they're
not using that setting.
Several don't even have any screen reader turn on initially by
default, as they will choose one based on what it is they're about
to work with first if one screen reader works with that software
better than the other.
Other than what you document above, which I've never seen because
that setting was not set, I have not encountered NVDA doing a
self-restart once explicitly exited from.
There are a number of possibilities here, but if the situation you
described is known to not have been set up, I still strongly
recommend an uninstall and reinstall to see if that clears things
up, and paying particular attention to the dialogs when installing
so the way you want NVDA to behave is actually set up correctly.











Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

Gene,

             It's hard to describe something visual to someone who cannot see (and has never seen), but I'll do my darndest.  Menus are, for lack of a better way of explaining it, framed.  There is usually no change in background color, but because they completely overlay what was formerly visible beneath them, and there are lines not only at the edges of the menu, but within a menu that separate groups (much like there are function groups in the ribbon interface, which sprung from that convention).

             It's the rough visual equivalent of a raised embossed line on a sheet of heavy paper at the edge of the menu and dividing the groups within that menu itself.  Whether or not you read Braille, anyone who ran their finger across a paper surface so embossed, even if they were sighted but blindfolded, would immediately recognize the presence of that raised line and be able to follow it with their finger.  That's precisely what you're doing analogously with vision.  It just sticks out because of how it overlays and disturbs the visual field you've been working with.  It's both impossible to ignore and impossible to mistake visually for anything else. 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Gene
 

Let's say a menu is opened and something like save as covers words in the document. How do the words save as look different so that they immediately stand out and don't look like a possible document? Are menu items a different color or a font that isn't used elsewhere? I assume something is done to draw the eye to the menu item so it is immediately seen as different and stands out.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 6:47 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 07:16 PM, Gene wrote:
If you are working in a program with a long menu, what happens if menu items cover something else on screen?-
Gene, no snark intended, but you've nailed it with the phrase "cover something else on screen." That's precisely what happens, and definitely in Windows 7 and earlier. There are transparency effects that can be activated in Windows 8 and 10, but I do not think those apply to menus proper, but to window frames and other elements. Even when transparency is on, what I have been able to see in specific contexts is not clearly visible. It is intentionally fuzzy by design.

I'll have to open something in TextMaker on my other laptop since I have it set up to use the menu interface, and I believe transparency effects are on, too, to see if they are applied to the dropdown menus or not.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner

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