Date   

using NVDA with Bluetooth

Bob Cavanaugh <cavbob1993@...>
 

Hi everyone,
It was a post on this list that inspired me to try using NVDA with my
Bluetooth speaker, and to my surprise, it actually worked. My question
is, can I somehow tell NVDA and only NVDA to output to the Bluetooth
speaker, and have everything else still come through the computer
speakers?
Bob


Re: Strategies for navigating YouTube comments using NVDA?

Gene
 

I've tried this on two pages. You can see if it works consistently.
From the top of the page, search for the word more. You may have to search twice to get to the word more that's immediately above the start of the comments section. I believe its part of a button that says more actions. You can see.
Once you start reading comments, search for the word view to be immediately above the next comment. At times, there is material below the word view that isn't the next comment. I haven't looked at it to be sure what it is. I think it may have to do with viewing a series of comments in a thread that that comment started. If so, I believe searching for view again will take you to the next main comment.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 1:48 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Strategies for navigating YouTube comments using NVDA?

I'd have to look at the comments section for a few videos but one reason you
may be having problems is that increasingly, sites change as you move
through them. This is to accommodate mobile devices. The whole page isn't
shown, but parts of it are and those parts change as you move through the
page. On The New York Times home page, for example, a section called
something like other news isn't shown when you are at the top of the page.
If I move to something close to where that section would be, to a feature
called editor's picks, then move down, by headings since that is the
convenient way to move through stories and sections on the site, the other
news section opens as I move to it and I can move through it and see that it
is there.
That may be happening with the comments section on Youtube.

When you get to the comments section, look above it. What is above it. Is
there an item you can conveniently move to or use the search of your
screen-reader to move to? If so, and if it is shown on the page when you
are at the top, in other words you don't have to have it open as you move
down, you can move to it then continue to move and be in the comments
section. I'll add that I'm not sure if the comments section will open
immediately. You may have to move back to where you were than wait a moment
and move down again, just as you may have to on The Times site.

Maybe this is a good system for sighted users, I don't know. It isn't for
blind people since you don't know if you are missing part of a page unless
you move through it in some way, from article to article, for example. If
you find what you want without doing so, that's fine. But you may miss
content you might be interested in on an unfamiliar page and not even know
that it is available.

As far as moving from comment to comment, once in the section, when you come
to the end of a comment, is there an item that is repeated at the end of
every comment that will allow you to move from comment to comment by doing
an initial search then using the repeat search command if you want to skip
to the next comment. The search command is one of the most powerful and
least used methods of web navigation by blind people. I suspect that one
reason for this is that it isn't taught thoroughly in a lot of training
material.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Luke Robinett
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 1:30 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Strategies for navigating YouTube comments using NVDA?



Hi folks,



I find navigating the YouTube comments section on the desktop site using my
Windows machine to be cumbersome. First, getting to the comments section
itself can be a chore. It sits under a level 2 heading but pressing “2” in
browse mode sometimes reports no heading at level 2 and other times it takes
you there as expected. Sometimes it helps to go to the end of the page and
then press shift “2,” but even this seems hit-or-miss.

Once you’ve made your way into the comments section, there doesn’t seem to
be any easy way to quickly move from one comment/reply to the next. Just
pressing control and down arrow to move through elements takes a long time
because each comment has numerous elements – screen name, timestamp, comment
itself, any links or hashtags they may have included, like button, dislike
button, reply button and so on. On the iOS YouTube app using VoiceOver, each
comment is treated as a single object and you can use the rotar to interact
with it, but there doesn’t seem to be anything resembling that behavior with
NVDA.

I pressed question mark to get Google’s list of keyboard shortcuts for
YouTube but they’re all mostly related to controlling video playback. Does
anyone have any tips or suggestions?



Thanks,

Luke


Re: Strategies for navigating YouTube comments using NVDA?

Luke Robinett <blindgroupsluke@...>
 

Right, the Reddit system isn't perfect but at least it's there. Agreed they would need to use different keys since J and K are assigned to video playback functions.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Csercsics
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 12:17 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Strategies for navigating YouTube comments using NVDA?

I'd also like to point out that the comment system for Reddit seems to be a bit broken at least with firefox, since pressing j and k doesn't automatically read the focused comment, though it does seem to move you there.

I'm not sure how this would work for Youtube either, because several of the letters are already used for video playback controls.


Re: Strategies for navigating YouTube comments using NVDA?

David Csercsics <bleeblat@...>
 

I'd also like to point out that the comment system for Reddit seems to be a bit broken at least with firefox, since pressing j and k doesn't automatically read the focused comment, though it does seem to move you there.

 I'm not sure how this would work for Youtube either, because several of the letters are already used for video playback controls.


Re: How to turn off NVDA

Bob Cavanaugh <cavbob1993@...>
 

If I were to guess, the person writing us is a sighted friend of
someone who needs NVDA, but this person is helping set up the
computer. Once things are set up, this is likely to not be an issue.

On 12/31/20, Robert Doc Wright godfearer <godfearer@comcast.net> wrote:
Is the reason why you don't won't NVDA on is that there will be multiple
users? If so why not create a separate profile for the person who does not
need NVDA. In that profile you can go to startup tab in task manager and
disable NVDA and it should not come up for that profile. Then each person
can choose their name at the login screen and have what they need.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Food Posse" <allaboutfoodandfun@hotmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 28, 2020 7:25 AM
Subject: [nvda] How to turn off NVDA


Can anyone help to fully turn off NVDA?

We are trying to set up a new computer for a friend and installed NVDA.
We are not familiar with screen readers so we launched NVDA to test it
for her. Then we tried to quit NVDA with insert + Q then OK, but NVDA
continued to run. No matter what we tried to quit, NVDA continued to
run. We finally went to the task manager to end task to stop NVDA. But
then NVDA automatically came back on whenever we installed or launched a
new program. We tried searching online for help but the Insert + Q or
Exit was the only option offered. But that option does not work for us.

When we turned Narrator on and off, it stayed off until we selected to
activate it. Is there a similar setting or way to turn off NVDA and for
it to stay off until we select to turn it on? Thank you for any help
the group can offer.













Re: Strategies for navigating YouTube comments using NVDA?

Luke Robinett <blindgroupsluke@...>
 

Hi Gene,

That makes sense that content may be getting dynamically hidden or displayed based on the user's device or position within the site. Good hypothesis! That would explain the seemingly sporadic nature of whether or not I can find the comments section.
As for moving through the comments, that's a good idea about finding something I can search for that is common to each comment. I generally try to use a similar strategy in forums or other feeds by finding an element, be it a button, link, graphic or certain heading, that is common to each post, but unfortunately each YouTube post contains multiple links, UI elements and no headings so that doesn't work so well. I'll try what you suggested and report back. :)
I've also emailed the Google Accessibility team with the suggestion of providing keyboard shortcuts for easy single-key traversal of comments similar to what Reddit has done.

Thanks,
Luke

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 11:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Strategies for navigating YouTube comments using NVDA?

I'd have to look at the comments section for a few videos but one reason you may be having problems is that increasingly, sites change as you move through them. This is to accommodate mobile devices. The whole page isn't shown, but parts of it are and those parts change as you move through the page. On The New York Times home page, for example, a section called something like other news isn't shown when you are at the top of the page.
If I move to something close to where that section would be, to a feature called editor's picks, then move down, by headings since that is the convenient way to move through stories and sections on the site, the other news section opens as I move to it and I can move through it and see that it is there.
That may be happening with the comments section on Youtube.

When you get to the comments section, look above it. What is above it. Is there an item you can conveniently move to or use the search of your screen-reader to move to? If so, and if it is shown on the page when you are at the top, in other words you don't have to have it open as you move down, you can move to it then continue to move and be in the comments section. I'll add that I'm not sure if the comments section will open immediately. You may have to move back to where you were than wait a moment and move down again, just as you may have to on The Times site.

Maybe this is a good system for sighted users, I don't know. It isn't for blind people since you don't know if you are missing part of a page unless you move through it in some way, from article to article, for example. If you find what you want without doing so, that's fine. But you may miss content you might be interested in on an unfamiliar page and not even know that it is available.

As far as moving from comment to comment, once in the section, when you come to the end of a comment, is there an item that is repeated at the end of every comment that will allow you to move from comment to comment by doing an initial search then using the repeat search command if you want to skip to the next comment. The search command is one of the most powerful and least used methods of web navigation by blind people. I suspect that one reason for this is that it isn't taught thoroughly in a lot of training material.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Luke Robinett
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 1:30 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Strategies for navigating YouTube comments using NVDA?



Hi folks,



I find navigating the YouTube comments section on the desktop site using my
Windows machine to be cumbersome. First, getting to the comments section
itself can be a chore. It sits under a level 2 heading but pressing “2” in
browse mode sometimes reports no heading at level 2 and other times it takes
you there as expected. Sometimes it helps to go to the end of the page and
then press shift “2,” but even this seems hit-or-miss.

Once you’ve made your way into the comments section, there doesn’t seem to
be any easy way to quickly move from one comment/reply to the next. Just
pressing control and down arrow to move through elements takes a long time
because each comment has numerous elements – screen name, timestamp, comment
itself, any links or hashtags they may have included, like button, dislike
button, reply button and so on. On the iOS YouTube app using VoiceOver, each
comment is treated as a single object and you can use the rotar to interact
with it, but there doesn’t seem to be anything resembling that behavior with
NVDA.

I pressed question mark to get Google’s list of keyboard shortcuts for
YouTube but they’re all mostly related to controlling video playback. Does
anyone have any tips or suggestions?



Thanks,

Luke


Re: Strategies for navigating YouTube comments using NVDA?

Gene
 

I'd have to look at the comments section for a few videos but one reason you may be having problems is that increasingly, sites change as you move through them. This is to accommodate mobile devices. The whole page isn't shown, but parts of it are and those parts change as you move through the page. On The New York Times home page, for example, a section called something like other news isn't shown when you are at the top of the page. If I move to something close to where that section would be, to a feature called editor's picks, then move down, by headings since that is the convenient way to move through stories and sections on the site, the other news section opens as I move to it and I can move through it and see that it is there.
That may be happening with the comments section on Youtube.

When you get to the comments section, look above it. What is above it. Is there an item you can conveniently move to or use the search of your screen-reader to move to? If so, and if it is shown on the page when you are at the top, in other words you don't have to have it open as you move down, you can move to it then continue to move and be in the comments section. I'll add that I'm not sure if the comments section will open immediately. You may have to move back to where you were than wait a moment and move down again, just as you may have to on The Times site.

Maybe this is a good system for sighted users, I don't know. It isn't for blind people since you don't know if you are missing part of a page unless you move through it in some way, from article to article, for example. If you find what you want without doing so, that's fine. But you may miss content you might be interested in on an unfamiliar page and not even know that it is available.

As far as moving from comment to comment, once in the section, when you come to the end of a comment, is there an item that is repeated at the end of every comment that will allow you to move from comment to comment by doing an initial search then using the repeat search command if you want to skip to the next comment. The search command is one of the most powerful and least used methods of web navigation by blind people. I suspect that one reason for this is that it isn't taught thoroughly in a lot of training material.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Luke Robinett
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 1:30 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Strategies for navigating YouTube comments using NVDA?



Hi folks,



I find navigating the YouTube comments section on the desktop site using my Windows machine to be cumbersome. First, getting to the comments section itself can be a chore. It sits under a level 2 heading but pressing “2” in browse mode sometimes reports no heading at level 2 and other times it takes you there as expected. Sometimes it helps to go to the end of the page and then press shift “2,” but even this seems hit-or-miss.

Once you’ve made your way into the comments section, there doesn’t seem to be any easy way to quickly move from one comment/reply to the next. Just pressing control and down arrow to move through elements takes a long time because each comment has numerous elements – screen name, timestamp, comment itself, any links or hashtags they may have included, like button, dislike button, reply button and so on. On the iOS YouTube app using VoiceOver, each comment is treated as a single object and you can use the rotar to interact with it, but there doesn’t seem to be anything resembling that behavior with NVDA.

I pressed question mark to get Google’s list of keyboard shortcuts for YouTube but they’re all mostly related to controlling video playback. Does anyone have any tips or suggestions?



Thanks,

Luke


Re: Strategies for navigating YouTube comments using NVDA?

Luke Robinett <blindgroupsluke@...>
 

Hi Chris,

 

Yeah, that works too. There’s still the issue of having to wade through numerous UI elements for each post, though. As you hit down arrow you’ll notice it doesn’t take you from post to post but rather through all those many elements of the post. The more I think about this, the more I think the only solution is probably on Google’s end. They could do something similar to what Reddit has done – press K for the next post, J for the previous, etc. Perhaps I’ll submit YouTube feedback to that end. Still figured it wouldn’t hurt to see what the bright folks of this list might have to say, though. J

 

Thanks,

Luke

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris Smart
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 11:32 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Strategies for navigating YouTube comments using NVDA?

 

I tend to hit E to jump to the edit field where you would contribute your own comment, and then Down Arrow quickly from there.

 

On 2020-12-31 2:30 p.m., Luke Robinett wrote:

Hi folks,

 

I find navigating the YouTube comments section on the desktop site using my Windows machine to be cumbersome. First, getting to the comments section itself can be a chore. It sits under a level 2 heading but pressing “2” in browse mode sometimes reports no heading at level 2 and other times it takes you there as expected. Sometimes it helps to go to the end of the page and then press shift “2,” but even this seems hit-or-miss.

Once you’ve made your way into the comments section, there doesn’t seem to be any easy way to quickly move from one comment/reply to the next. Just pressing control and down arrow to move through elements takes a long time because each comment has numerous elements – screen name, timestamp, comment itself, any links or hashtags they may have included, like button, dislike button, reply button and so on. On the iOS YouTube app using VoiceOver, each comment is treated as a single object and you can use the rotar to interact with it, but there doesn’t seem to be anything resembling that behavior with NVDA.

I pressed question mark to get Google’s list of keyboard shortcuts for YouTube but they’re all mostly related to controlling video playback. Does anyone have any tips or suggestions?

 

Thanks,

Luke

 


Re: NVDA and outlook questions

Dennis L <dennisl1982@...>
 

It does not automatically read the suggestions as your typing.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Supanut Leepaisomboon
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 6:02 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and outlook questions

 

I just did some tests with Outlook to see if I can reproduce the issue you mentioned, and it seems that I did not encounter the issue you described. NVDA seems to work perfectly in Outlook, in the to field. When I started typing, NVDA instantly reads out the matching address it finds, and NVDA also reads out the suggestions as I arrowed through them.
For your information, the version of Outlook I got from the about Outlook page is Microsoft Outlook for Microsoft 365 version 16.0.13426.20352 64-bit. I'm using NVDA 2020.3.


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Luke Robinett <blindgroupsluke@...>
 

Interesting. I don’t think what Sarah says is controversial, myself. She’s frankly right; if you can’t translate the phrase, “click on” to whatever your paradigm is for activating something, be that clicking, hitting spacebar or double tapping, I think the issue is your lack of computer literacy more than disability. BTW I’m speaking in general terms here and not about anyone in this thread. I suggest treating it case by case. If someone tells you to click on something and its truly unclear from context what they’re talking about, just ask them to clarify. Unfair though it might be, we blind folks need to be even more computer literate than the general population. Using a screen reader is itself an advanced computer skill, so if one doesn’t have the basics of computers down, they’re setting themselves up for a struggle.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 10:43 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

I pick it up from reading icons. Everyone knows, at least for now that the ellipsis is called the "hamburger" or the "more" button" or the "gear" is "settings." the "book" might be amazon the "mic' might be a sound app etc on the phone. I can translate sighted speak into blind speak so to say if I have read the manual and have the app in question in front of me. If you cannot do that, you will get left behind.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 23:04, Chris Smart wrote:

Right, but you, as a screen reader user, don't know it's a mic icon, a gear icon, solely from what your screen reader has told you. Where do you pick up that information? From sighted folks?

 

 

On 2020-12-31 12:08 a.m., Sarah k Alawami wrote:

You might say "click on settings" or "if that doesn't say settings, click on the mic icon."

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 18:24, Chris Smart wrote:

Sarah, if you're reading this, remember that what your screen reader calls something may not at all be what a sighted people sees. You may say "click on where it says 'sound settings'" and they may only see a little icon of a microphone.  How do you account for discrepancies like that?

On 2020-12-30 9:22 p.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:

I agree. If I was a beginning computer user, I wouldn't want Sarah as my instructor. If she's gonna tell people to click on something, she might as well say "point and click". I say that because I actually had a teacher yell at me because I couldn't use the mouse to click on something. I too hope Sarah doesn't teach older computer users or beginners to the computer.

On 12/30/2020 6:12 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with. I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.

Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just  responding to what I dfeel is an absurd approach.

Mary

On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. http://www.tffppodcast.com

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine. http://tffppodcast.com/shadow

to subscribe to the feed click here http://feeds.feedburner.com/tffp and you can also follow us on twitter http://twitter.com/tffppodcast

Our discord http://discord.tffppodcast.com is where you will know when we go live on twitch. http://twitch.tv/ke7zum Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page http://lbry.tv/@ke7zum and my tffp lbry page http://lbry.tv/@tffp You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here Http://patreon.com/tffppodcast

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:

    On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:

        You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight
        with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or
        there. They have no clue that you are a blind user. I’ve
        encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.

    -
    Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while
    at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

    I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple
    issues.  But, at the same time, there are "click here and click
    there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there
    are others that are impossible to follow.  There are plenty of
    sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and
    particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an
    individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader. If you
    ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never
    been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how
    they think that would work, they generally can't answer. I could
    not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz,
    and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in
    the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually
    driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to
    conceive of via other modalities.  Those of us who see "swim in
    sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious
    reasons, that's a taken for granted thing.  Just like those of us
    who can hear do the same for audition.  You just don't think about
    sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted,
    when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

    I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some
    techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is
    absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support -
    they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are
    doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or
    stupidity.  It's probably ignorance more than anything. But
    sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when
    they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work. Were
    someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I
    can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is
    going to get both sides of the equation something they need.  You
    get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in,
    however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to
    reference things that is not purely visual.  They'll usually keep
    screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if
    you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be
    willing to rephrase.  For certain things, it's worth trying to get
    the point across that giving reference points, is something worth
    doing.  A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper
    left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link
    very near to it?  If I can find that, I can likely find what's
    next to it."   There really are not, and never will be, enough
    technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to
    provide support for every product that exists, particularly for
    smaller companies.  But many techs really want to help, they just
    have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how
    to an extent while getting the help you need.

    All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well
    that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very
    passive and unwilling to work with you) techs. But there are lots
    of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless
    about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless
    about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the
    middle where you can both get what you want.

    I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to
    tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make
    their way back into "the world at large" that they would
    constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to
    educate the clueless.  It's not a choice, because that's another
    population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that
    there will never come a time when most people they meet and
    interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain
    injured or what a brain injured individual might need. The thing
    that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that
    most blind people will not is the presumption that they are
    incapable of understanding a very great many things that they
    can.  And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used
    to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel
    upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping
    composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and
    what you're capable of.

    Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added
    responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of
    their daily life where the majority do not.  But I do not ever see
    any way that will change.  It's the result of relative sizes of
    given demographics in the population at large.  When you're a
    niche, you're a niche.  Rebelling against the larger world because
    you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger
    world.  In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in
    most instances they don't have to.  But that doesn't mean that
    those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many
    really would love to help if they are taught how that's
    appropriately given.  And, believe me, the last thing you want is
    to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of
    the time.

    --
    Brian -Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

    [Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by
    Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] /Pleased with
    the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of
    where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a
    bottomless supply of crazy./

            ~ Brendan Buck, /former adviser to Speakers of the House
    Paul Ryan and John Boehner/


Re: Strategies for navigating YouTube comments using NVDA?

Chris Smart
 

I tend to hit E to jump to the edit field where you would contribute your own comment, and then Down Arrow quickly from there.


On 2020-12-31 2:30 p.m., Luke Robinett wrote:

Hi folks,

 

I find navigating the YouTube comments section on the desktop site using my Windows machine to be cumbersome. First, getting to the comments section itself can be a chore. It sits under a level 2 heading but pressing “2” in browse mode sometimes reports no heading at level 2 and other times it takes you there as expected. Sometimes it helps to go to the end of the page and then press shift “2,” but even this seems hit-or-miss.

Once you’ve made your way into the comments section, there doesn’t seem to be any easy way to quickly move from one comment/reply to the next. Just pressing control and down arrow to move through elements takes a long time because each comment has numerous elements – screen name, timestamp, comment itself, any links or hashtags they may have included, like button, dislike button, reply button and so on. On the iOS YouTube app using VoiceOver, each comment is treated as a single object and you can use the rotar to interact with it, but there doesn’t seem to be anything resembling that behavior with NVDA.

I pressed question mark to get Google’s list of keyboard shortcuts for YouTube but they’re all mostly related to controlling video playback. Does anyone have any tips or suggestions?

 

Thanks,

Luke

 


Strategies for navigating YouTube comments using NVDA?

Luke Robinett <blindgroupsluke@...>
 

Hi folks,

 

I find navigating the YouTube comments section on the desktop site using my Windows machine to be cumbersome. First, getting to the comments section itself can be a chore. It sits under a level 2 heading but pressing “2” in browse mode sometimes reports no heading at level 2 and other times it takes you there as expected. Sometimes it helps to go to the end of the page and then press shift “2,” but even this seems hit-or-miss.

Once you’ve made your way into the comments section, there doesn’t seem to be any easy way to quickly move from one comment/reply to the next. Just pressing control and down arrow to move through elements takes a long time because each comment has numerous elements – screen name, timestamp, comment itself, any links or hashtags they may have included, like button, dislike button, reply button and so on. On the iOS YouTube app using VoiceOver, each comment is treated as a single object and you can use the rotar to interact with it, but there doesn’t seem to be anything resembling that behavior with NVDA.

I pressed question mark to get Google’s list of keyboard shortcuts for YouTube but they’re all mostly related to controlling video playback. Does anyone have any tips or suggestions?

 

Thanks,

Luke

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Sarah k Alawami
 

I pick it up from reading icons. Everyone knows, at least for now that the ellipsis is called the "hamburger" or the "more" button" or the "gear" is "settings." the "book" might be amazon the "mic' might be a sound app etc on the phone. I can translate sighted speak into blind speak so to say if I have read the manual and have the app in question in front of me. If you cannot do that, you will get left behind.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 23:04, Chris Smart wrote:

Right, but you, as a screen reader user, don't know it's a mic icon, a gear icon, solely from what your screen reader has told you. Where do you pick up that information? From sighted folks?



On 2020-12-31 12:08 a.m., Sarah k Alawami wrote:

You might say "click on settings" or "if that doesn't say settings, click on the mic icon."

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 18:24, Chris Smart wrote:

Sarah, if you're reading this, remember that what your screen reader calls something may not at all be what a sighted people sees. You may say "click on where it says 'sound settings'" and they may only see a little icon of a microphone.  How do you account for discrepancies like that?

On 2020-12-30 9:22 p.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:

I agree. If I was a beginning computer user, I wouldn't want Sarah as my instructor. If she's gonna tell people to click on something, she might as well say "point and click". I say that because I actually had a teacher yell at me because I couldn't use the mouse to click on something. I too hope Sarah doesn't teach older computer users or beginners to the computer.

On 12/30/2020 6:12 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with. I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.

Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just  responding to what I dfeel is an absurd approach.

Mary

On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. http://www.tffppodcast.com

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine. http://tffppodcast.com/shadow

to subscribe to the feed click here http://feeds.feedburner.com/tffp and you can also follow us on twitter http://twitter.com/tffppodcast

Our discord http://discord.tffppodcast.com is where you will know when we go live on twitch. http://twitch.tv/ke7zum Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page http://lbry.tv/@ke7zum and my tffp lbry page http://lbry.tv/@tffp You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here Http://patreon.com/tffppodcast

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:

    On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:

        You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight
        with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or
        there. They have no clue that you are a blind user. I’ve
        encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.

    -
    Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while
    at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

    I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple
    issues.  But, at the same time, there are "click here and click
    there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there
    are others that are impossible to follow.  There are plenty of
    sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and
    particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an
    individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader. If you
    ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never
    been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how
    they think that would work, they generally can't answer. I could
    not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz,
    and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in
    the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually
    driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to
    conceive of via other modalities.  Those of us who see "swim in
    sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious
    reasons, that's a taken for granted thing.  Just like those of us
    who can hear do the same for audition.  You just don't think about
    sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted,
    when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

    I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some
    techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is
    absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support -
    they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are
    doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or
    stupidity.  It's probably ignorance more than anything. But
    sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when
    they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work. Were
    someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I
    can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is
    going to get both sides of the equation something they need.  You
    get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in,
    however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to
    reference things that is not purely visual.  They'll usually keep
    screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if
    you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be
    willing to rephrase.  For certain things, it's worth trying to get
    the point across that giving reference points, is something worth
    doing.  A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper
    left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link
    very near to it?  If I can find that, I can likely find what's
    next to it."   There really are not, and never will be, enough
    technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to
    provide support for every product that exists, particularly for
    smaller companies.  But many techs really want to help, they just
    have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how
    to an extent while getting the help you need.

    All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well
    that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very
    passive and unwilling to work with you) techs. But there are lots
    of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless
    about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless
    about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the
    middle where you can both get what you want.

    I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to
    tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make
    their way back into "the world at large" that they would
    constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to
    educate the clueless.  It's not a choice, because that's another
    population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that
    there will never come a time when most people they meet and
    interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain
    injured or what a brain injured individual might need. The thing
    that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that
    most blind people will not is the presumption that they are
    incapable of understanding a very great many things that they
    can.  And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used
    to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel
    upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping
    composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and
    what you're capable of.

    Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added
    responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of
    their daily life where the majority do not.  But I do not ever see
    any way that will change.  It's the result of relative sizes of
    given demographics in the population at large.  When you're a
    niche, you're a niche.  Rebelling against the larger world because
    you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger
    world.  In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in
    most instances they don't have to.  But that doesn't mean that
    those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many
    really would love to help if they are taught how that's
    appropriately given.  And, believe me, the last thing you want is
    to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of
    the time.

    --
    Brian -Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

    [Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by
    Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] /Pleased with
    the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of
    where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a
    bottomless supply of crazy./

            ~ Brendan Buck, /former adviser to Speakers of the House
    Paul Ryan and John Boehner/


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Sarah k Alawami
 

I disagree 100 percent. I actually do think "click tools" while I press alt t, or what ever. When I do my sound editing in widnows or mac usign reaper I think "adjust the wave form to reflect blah blah blah." so yes I do think in sighted terms. or I'm drawing a sign wave, etc and I'm clicking these two points to do such, with the keyboard. so yes you must think in sighted terms in order to understand most things now a days.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 21:32, Gene wrote:

that is ideology and, though it oftenmakes sense, it doesn't always. I had swimming lessons in a sighted class as a child, and though I learned a good deal, I went much farther in much less time while in a program that matched one instructor with one blind student.

You haven't defined what thinking in sighted terms means. If I'm writing on a list like this, I'm not going to say, click on tools, then click options, then click on whatever tab I may want to move to from the default. for one thing, a lot of people wouldn't know what I was talking about. for another, blind people do work from the keyboard in most of what they do. I think about mouse commands when I need to, when reading instructions written for sighted people, and when describing how to do something to a sighted person. But when I'm thinking about how I usually use a computer, I think about the way I use it, from the keyboard. I'm not going to spend the time and effort translating keyboard procedures for blind people to read because of an ideological belief that we have to think in sighted terms. When I open a menu in a typical program, I don't think to myself, click the menu in the menu bar. Whether I think about it or do it so automatically that I don't think about it, I press alt and then do whatever I do to finish opening the menu. While it is a good thing for people who want to expand their abilities beyond that, that doesn't mean that we have to describe things the way sighted people do when talking with other blind people. Living in a sighted world requires certain skills and knowledge. It doesn't mean that we have to describe everything as sighted people do when we talk among ourselves.

if you do things and function in environments where it matters, knowing how to do so may be important. That isn't the same as refusing to describe things when talking with blind people as blind people usually do things. that is a misapplication of ideology.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 11:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice



We live in a sighted world. You must think in sighted terms, no matter your age. I was taught like this by an older instructor of music. None of us got left behind, and for those of us that did, they dropped quickly leaving the rest of us to pass. I'm not a super tech, but I do read and observe a lot so I don't fall behind.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 18:12, Mary Otten wrote:




Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with. I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.




Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just responding to what I dfeel is an absurd approach.




Mary




On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:


Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:


On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:
You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers. You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user. I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.-
Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple issues. But, at the same time, there are "click here and click there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there are others that are impossible to follow. There are plenty of sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader. If you ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how they think that would work, they generally can't answer. I could not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz, and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to conceive of via other modalities. Those of us who see "swim in sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious reasons, that's a taken for granted thing. Just like those of us who can hear do the same for audition. You just don't think about sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted, when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support - they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or stupidity. It's probably ignorance more than anything. But sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work. Were someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is going to get both sides of the equation something they need. You get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in, however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to reference things that is not purely visual. They'll usually keep screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be willing to rephrase. For certain things, it's worth trying to get the point across that giving reference points, is something worth doing. A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link very near to it? If I can find that, I can likely find what's next to it." There really are not, and never will be, enough technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to provide support for every product that exists, particularly for smaller companies. But many techs really want to help, they just have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how to an extent while getting the help you need.

All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very passive and unwilling to work with you) techs. But there are lots of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the middle where you can both get what you want.

I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make their way back into "the world at large" that they would constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to educate the clueless. It's not a choice, because that's another population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that there will never come a time when most people they meet and interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain injured or what a brain injured individual might need. The thing that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that most blind people will not is the presumption that they are incapable of understanding a very great many things that they can. And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and what you're capable of.

Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of their daily life where the majority do not. But I do not ever see any way that will change. It's the result of relative sizes of given demographics in the population at large. When you're a niche, you're a niche. Rebelling against the larger world because you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger world. In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in most instances they don't have to. But that doesn't mean that those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many really would love to help if they are taught how that's appropriately given. And, believe me, the last thing you want is to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of the time.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner















Re: NVDA and ctrl+a

John J. Boyer
 

I tried it in notepad, notepad== and WordPad. It was weird.

John

On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 10:26:55AM -0600, Gene wrote:
In what program? Control a is a windows command and I don't know if there
are any programs where NVDA might cause this to happen. But if people are
going to check, this, we should know the program where you observed this.

Also, what are you describing? Are you talking about visually seeing what
is on screen?

Gene

-----Original Message----- From: John J. Boyer
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 9:55 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] NVDA and ctrl+a

Hello,

When I pressed ctrl+a to select an entire file only the first line was
highlighted. This gave me quite a start.
Further investigation showed, however, that everything was selected.
Apparently NVDA was showing only the first line. It used to show everything
as highlighted.

John

--
John J. Boyer
Email: john.boyer@abilitiessoft.org
website: http://www.abilitiessoft.org
Status: Company dissolved but website and email addresses live.
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, USA
Mission: developing assistive technology software and providing STEM
services
that are available at no cost










--
John J. Boyer
Email: john.boyer@abilitiessoft.org
website: http://www.abilitiessoft.org
Status: Company dissolved but website and email addresses live.
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, USA
Mission: developing assistive technology software and providing STEM services
that are available at no cost


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Chris Smart
 

Agree 1000%!

Sighted folks are the majority, and the world, for the most part, is designed to meet their needs. The last thing I want to do is be yet another bitter blind person.

On 2020-12-31 11:48 a.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
I live in the world too--and not a fantasy world where there's a blind world and sighted world. I live in the real world.



On 12/30/2020 10:29 PM, Buddy Brannan wrote:
I dunno about the rest of you, but I sure don’t live in a sighted world. Or a blind world. I live in…wait for it…the world. All of this “sighted world” and “blind world” and what not drives me up a tree. Also, Brian, you do so well, I mean you handle all of this stuff so well, we nearly forget your handicap. (He says, with tongue firmly in cheek)


Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Email: buddy@brannan.name
Mobile: (814) 431-0962



On Dec 31, 2020, at 12:07 AM, Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@gmail.com> wrote:

We live in a sighted world. You must think in sighted terms, no matter your age. I was taught like this by an older instructor of music. None of us got left behind, and for those of us that did, they dropped quickly leaving the rest of us to pass. I'm not a super tech, but I do read and observe a lot so I don't fall behind.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 18:12, Mary Otten wrote:

Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else should do the       same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with. I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.



Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just  responding to what I dfeel is an absurd approach.



Mary



On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:
You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers.  You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user.  I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.
-
Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple issues.  But, at the same time, there are "click here and click there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there are others that are impossible to follow.  There are plenty of sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader.  If you ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how they think that would work, they generally can't answer.  I could not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz, and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to conceive of via other modalities.  Those of us who see "swim in sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious reasons, that's a taken for granted thing.  Just like those of us who can hear do the same for audition.  You just don't think about sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted, when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support - they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or stupidity.  It's probably ignorance more than anything.  But sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work.  Were someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is going to get both sides of the equation something they need.  You get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in, however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to reference things that is not purely visual.  They'll usually keep screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be willing to rephrase.  For certain things, it's worth trying to get the point across that giving reference points, is something worth doing.  A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link very near to it?  If I can find that, I can likely find what's next to it."   There really are not, and never will be, enough technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to provide support for every product that exists, particularly for smaller companies.  But many techs really want to help, they just have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how to an extent while getting the help you need.

All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very passive and unwilling to work with you) techs. But there are lots of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the middle where you can both get what you want.

I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make their way back into "the world at large" that they would constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to educate the clueless.  It's not a choice, because that's another population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that there will never come a time when most people they meet and interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain injured or what a brain injured individual might need.  The thing that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that most blind people will not is the presumption that they are incapable of understanding a very great many things that they can.  And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and what you're capable of.

Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of their daily life where the majority do not.  But I do not ever see any way that will change.  It's the result of relative sizes of given demographics in the population at large.  When you're a niche, you're a niche.  Rebelling against the larger world because you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger world.  In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in most instances they don't have to.  But that doesn't mean that those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many really would love to help if they are taught how that's appropriately given.  And, believe me, the last thing you want is to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of the time.

--
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042
[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:]  Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.
         ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner







Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

I live in the world too--and not a fantasy world where there's a blind world and sighted world. I live in the real world.

On 12/30/2020 10:29 PM, Buddy Brannan wrote:
I dunno about the rest of you, but I sure don’t live in a sighted world. Or a blind world. I live in…wait for it…the world. All of this “sighted world” and “blind world” and what not drives me up a tree. Also, Brian, you do so well, I mean you handle all of this stuff so well, we nearly forget your handicap. (He says, with tongue firmly in cheek)


Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Email: buddy@brannan.name
Mobile: (814) 431-0962



On Dec 31, 2020, at 12:07 AM, Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@gmail.com> wrote:

We live in a sighted world. You must think in sighted terms, no matter your age. I was taught like this by an older instructor of music. None of us got left behind, and for those of us that did, they dropped quickly leaving the rest of us to pass. I'm not a super tech, but I do read and observe a lot so I don't fall behind.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 18:12, Mary Otten wrote:

Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with. I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.



Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just responding to what I dfeel is an absurd approach.



Mary



On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:
You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers. You know how they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind user. I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.
-
Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.

I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple issues. But, at the same time, there are "click here and click there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there are others that are impossible to follow. There are plenty of sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader. If you ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how they think that would work, they generally can't answer. I could not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz, and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to conceive of via other modalities. Those of us who see "swim in sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious reasons, that's a taken for granted thing. Just like those of us who can hear do the same for audition. You just don't think about sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted, when you have no real reason to in daily existence.

I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support - they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or stupidity. It's probably ignorance more than anything. But sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work. Were someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is going to get both sides of the equation something they need. You get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in, however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to reference things that is not purely visual. They'll usually keep screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be willing to rephrase. For certain things, it's worth trying to get the point across that giving reference points, is something worth doing. A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link very near to it? If I can find that, I can likely find what's next to it." There really are not, and never will be, enough technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to provide support for every product that exists, particularly for smaller companies. But many techs really want to help, they just have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how to an extent while getting the help you need.

All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very passive and unwilling to work with you) techs. But there are lots of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the middle where you can both get what you want.

I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make their way back into "the world at large" that they would constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to educate the clueless. It's not a choice, because that's another population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that there will never come a time when most people they meet and interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain injured or what a brain injured individual might need. The thing that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that most blind people will not is the presumption that they are incapable of understanding a very great many things that they can. And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and what you're capable of.

Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of their daily life where the majority do not. But I do not ever see any way that will change. It's the result of relative sizes of given demographics in the population at large. When you're a niche, you're a niche. Rebelling against the larger world because you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger world. In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in most instances they don't have to. But that doesn't mean that those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many really would love to help if they are taught how that's appropriately given. And, believe me, the last thing you want is to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of the time.

--
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042
[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.
~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner



Re: NVDA and ctrl+a

Gene
 

In what program? Control a is a windows command and I don't know if there are any programs where NVDA might cause this to happen. But if people are going to check, this, we should know the program where you observed this.

Also, what are you describing? Are you talking about visually seeing what is on screen?

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: John J. Boyer
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 9:55 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] NVDA and ctrl+a

Hello,

When I pressed ctrl+a to select an entire file only the first line was highlighted. This gave me quite a start.
Further investigation showed, however, that everything was selected. Apparently NVDA was showing only the first line. It used to show everything as highlighted.

John

--
John J. Boyer
Email: john.boyer@abilitiessoft.org
website: http://www.abilitiessoft.org
Status: Company dissolved but website and email addresses live.
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, USA
Mission: developing assistive technology software and providing STEM services
that are available at no cost


NVDA and ctrl+a

John J. Boyer
 

Hello,

When I pressed ctrl+a to select an entire file only the first line was highlighted. This gave me quite a start.
Further investigation showed, however, that everything was selected. Apparently NVDA was showing only the first line. It used to show everything as highlighted.

John

--
John J. Boyer
Email: john.boyer@abilitiessoft.org
website: http://www.abilitiessoft.org
Status: Company dissolved but website and email addresses live.
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, USA
Mission: developing assistive technology software and providing STEM services
that are available at no cost


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Betsy Grenevitch
 

Brian, thank you for all the help you give on this list. It is great to have you here. Thanks for your help with me in the past.



On 12/30/2020 6:33 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 03:19 PM, Jackie wrote:
I think Arlene was just trying to say that Brian doesn't instruct like most sighted folks. The context of the message bears that out, Ibelieve.
-
And that's how I read it, and particularly in reference to my avoiding "point and click" terminology when speaking to a blind and visually impaired audience, which I try to be very mindful to avoid.

Yet, Gene is correct is his observation that it is every bit as incumbent on blind users to have the mental tools at their disposal to "translate" a point and click instruction set to keyboard user equivalent.  When I tutor, this is something I teach when necessary.  Most of my students have been individuals who are formerly sighted, so they implicitly understand "point and click" style in instruction sets, and what I teach them is not only how to use a screen reader, per se, but what the translations from sighted-focused terminology to keyboard-focused terminology is.  They should, at the end, be able to look at an instruction set written for either the sighted or the blind and be equally comfortable following either.

As Mike Capelle noted, "We all live in a sighted world," and I don't think there's a single reader here who does not understand what he meant.  Like the old Palmolive commercial:  You're soaking in it.

While any given individual can make any choices they see fit, choices have consequences.  And if you're a blind computer user who, by choice, cuts yourself off from "sighted centric" instructions, you are cutting yourself off from the vast majority of material out there that can answer many questions you have.

I do not rewrite the instruction sets I have written for keyboard-focused audiences when I post same in sighted-centric venues.  I make a point of saying, "This was written with blind individuals in mind, and is keyboard focused, but you [the random sighted user] should easily be able to translate these to using the mouse."  I fully expect that this should work in the opposite direction, too, and make no apology for that.  I do offer pointers to certain sighted-centric instructions, not written by me, because they're good instruction sets.  I don't think that it's impossible to know that, "click on," means "gain focus on and select," "double click on, " means, "activate by your preferred method, etc.  It's a basic skill that anyone who wishes to expand their own computer use expertise should acquire.  And heaven knows there are a very great number of members other than myself who can assist if you happen to be someone in the translation acquisition phase of your own education.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 

--
Betsy Grenevitch 678-862-3876

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