Date   

Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 11:40 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I do picture visual images as that's how I was taught.
-
But, Sarah, the only way you can do that is if you, at one time, had enough vision to even have "visual images" as a concept.  Those totally blind since birth do not think visually in the way I do, that's for sure.  And any instruction related to color as an identifier is off the table, period, because it is not helpful as a classifier to someone who's never had the ability to process color.

You really don't seem to get "how you read" in many instances, nor do you often revise what you've said to more accurately depict what you actually do, although you will on occasion.

Saying that someone who's never been able to see, "are expected to know how things look, to the best of our ability," is the equivalent of saying, of a totally deaf person, that they "are expected to know how things sound, to the best of their ability."  It's a completely meaningless concept to someone who has never had a given sense, and even I will say that it's insulting to expect something of someone that their own sensory palette makes impossible in any meaningful way.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Sarah k Alawami
 

Agreed.
[snip]

  1. Before you post your question(s) to the list, please search the group archives or do a google search. This prevents the cycle of repeated messages. It also teaches you the user to search before asking for help. Oly when you have exhausted yoru resources should you come to this list. We get a lot of messages, so the archives are full of stuff dating back to at least 2005.

That is on every list I run and in the case of my tech discord servers, that is on there too, to an extent.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 4 Jan 2021, at 8:39, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 11:31 AM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
Not everybody is good at doing searches. Sometimes you could search unless you're blue in the face and you don't always find good results.
-
And that is entirely irrelevant.  The only way you get good at doing searches is practice.

And if anyone happens to say, "I've tried to find this but have had zero luck," then that at least indicates an effort has been made.  You are absolutely correct that even skilled searchers will sometimes come up with overly broad collections of results, or no results.  But the effort should be expected to have been made before you ever ask on a group.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Sarah k Alawami
 

That might be true, however the action of pressing alt t will in fact make me mentally picture the mouse clicking the tools icon at the top of the menu bar. It will then pull down to reveal more options etc. Same with the tabs. I do picture visual images as that's how I was taught. as we do live in a sighted world and we are expected to know how things look, to the best of our ability. This is a battle you will never win!

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 4 Jan 2021, at 8:31, Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io wrote:

At 01:40 PM 12/31/2020, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
>I disagree 100 percent. I actually do think "click tools" while I press
>alt t, or whatever.

Is that so? Let's test whether your supposed inner thought actually works. Turn off your screen reader and stow away your keyboard, leaving nothing but a silent computer and a mouse. What would pointing to and clicking Tools mean to you then, when you couldn't even find Tools on the screen? Your
claim is entirely disingenuous; you only cling to it out of the necessity to promote a ridiculous position. When you press alt+T, you know damn well that, in your case, and in the rest of ours, it is that key command that is bringing down Tools; no pointing or clicking are involved.

>When I do my sound editing in windows or mac using
>reaper I think "adjust the wave form to reflect blah blah blah." so yes
>I do think in sighted terms. or I'm drawing a sign wave, etc and I'm
>clicking these two points to do such, with the keyboard. so yes you must
>think in sighted terms in order to understand most things now a days.

Your thinking on this issue is downright toxic to everyone compelled to call you "teacher." Sound is not wave forms in a pictorial sense; sound waves move through air, which has nothing to do with 2-dimensional depictions of wave forms in audio editing. I have edited audio for twenty years and have never once thought about drawing wave forms, since neither screen readers nor Braille displays can translate drawn wave forms into any output I can comprehend. At times, I admire what is evident to sighted musicians simply by glancing at wave form depictions of audio. However, I classify that admiration in the same group as my admiration for a myriad visual manifestations of beauty.

Orlando Enrique Fiol


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 11:31 AM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
Not everybody is good at doing searches. Sometimes you could search unless you're blue in the face and you don't always find good results.
-
And that is entirely irrelevant.  The only way you get good at doing searches is practice.

And if anyone happens to say, "I've tried to find this but have had zero luck," then that at least indicates an effort has been made.  You are absolutely correct that even skilled searchers will sometimes come up with overly broad collections of results, or no results.  But the effort should be expected to have been made before you ever ask on a group.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 01:43 PM 12/31/2020, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I pick it up from reading icons.
Sarah, if you can read even one icon, I'll spread out my arms and take to the sky. You don't *read icons*; your screen reader translates icons into words. Turn off your screen reader and see how many icons you can read.

Everyone knows, at least for now that
the ellipsis is called the "hamburger" or the "more" button" or the
"gear" is "settings." the "book" might be amazon the "mic' might be a
sound app etc on the phone.
You are a true danger to the world's universities. The ellipsis does not represent a hamburger a "more" button; it represents the trailing off of a clause or sentence. It has been used grammatically in all Roman-script languages long before there was even electricity, let alone solid-state hard drives.

I can translate sighted speak into blind
speak so to say if I have read the manual and have the app in question
in front of me. If you cannot do that, you will get left behind.
Judging from the ellipsis example, I'd say you're not anywhere close to being prepared for a United Nations translation post. But keep trying.


Orlando


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Sarah k Alawami
 

I actually took a music test with the staff alone, learned how to read it with my fingers. I'm in a sighted world. By the way I got a 79 on the printed test . I needed a 70 to pass. I also learned the symbols for boeings, dynamics etc. It's better better than braille music any day.

and by the way I still will write and use click. You are expected to know the terms and use them and translate them into keyboard or finger actions or even probably head stick actions if you have to. I even say tap for iOs or click sometimes if I know the person is using a mouse on that thing. and I back translate "click the gear" as in "click settings" as in "tap or hit space on or touch what ever." S sink or swim in my humble opinion.

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 4 Jan 2021, at 8:05, Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io wrote:

At 12:08 AM 12/31/2020, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
>You might say "click on settings" or "if that doesn't say settings,
>click on the mic icon."

I sure wouldn't especially to my fellow blindies. To the sighted, icons are meant to capture their ocular attention. For us, icons are things to be searched for. If there were no other way to activate an element besides finding an icon, I'd tell a blind person to do a screen search for a specific word and activate the element under which that word appears. This of course assumes that all icons have been labeled with alt text. If not, searching for icons does us absolutely no good.
Contrary to what you obviously believe, even Microsoft's documentation does not exclusively employ icon and mouse-oriented language. If Microsoft has finally come to understand that inclusive language will ultimately help sell more of their product to the blind and otherwise disabled, you, as a blind woman, should have no trouble understanding that the technological vocabulary we've developed is not inferior to the more ubiquitous sighted vocabulary. While being able to translate into pedestrian sightling computerspeak can be a valuable skill, no one will be left behind if they say "activate" rather than "point and click".
Your music teacher sadly internalized a very outmoded thinking about blind assimilation--namely, that we must constantly think and act as though we were sighted, completely denying and denigrating our valid reality. I have read Braille music fluently for forty years. In many ways, I consider Braille notation more efficient and comprehensible than print notation. Yet, I've taught dozens of sighted students to read their staves from scratch because I followed my blind theory teacher's advice to "Learn the staff, Orly. You'll need it someday when you teach." Although I can teach the staff in my sleep, I make no bones about the fact that I never have, and never will, think in terms of the pictorial perspective that staff notation represents.

Orlando Enrique Fiol
Charlotte, North Carolina
Professional Pianist/Keyboardist, Percussionist and Pedagogue
Ph.D. in Music theory
University of Pennsylvania: November, 2018
Home: (980) 585-1516
Mobile: (267) 971-7090


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 11:28 AM, Mike Capelle wrote:
OMG, if someone asks me a question, I will answer it, telling someone to look it up or research it, is rude!
-
Sorry, Mike, but I have to disagree, and not just in reference to blind groups/lists, though I see what follows happen more frequently on them.

Anyone, before they impose upon the time of over a thousand people, should think about whether what they're about to ask is likely already answered and whether the answers to same are readily available to them without imposing on the time of others.  Expecting that someone will have lifted a finger before imposing on the time of group members is not unreasonable, at all, and I have seen many messages over the years where the effort to type the subject and text took more effort than distilling what was in the subject to a very tightly focused web search that would have produced the answer many times over would have.  It is lazy, and rude, to ask that sort of question without having tried to find it yourself, first.

Another segment from my "Expectations of Members" document that I have used in group rules elsewhere, but not on the NVDA Group, is pertinent:
----

1.        You will have done a web search and/or group archive search before posting almost any question, because the vast majority of questions relevant to online communities have been answered, repeatedly.  It is rude to impose upon the time of hundreds to thousands of people regarding questions that have answers that can be found independently with very little effort and basic skills.

2.       If you are told, “There’s this thing called a web search,” or, “Google is your friend,” or similar that you realize you deserve it.  I have yet to see this response to anything that does not warrant it.  If you ask something that indicates you didn’t follow the practices outlined in items 2 thru 4, before asking online and imposing on the time of others when that’s completely unnecessary, this is a perfectly legitimate response to that.  You’ve been lazy and rude; don’t repeat that mistake.

3.       If you receive a reaction such as those in #5 above, the appropriate response is NEVER to argue back.  The one and only response that is appropriate, if you actually do not have the skills to do your own searching, is to ask for assistance in acquiring same, period.  Believe it or not, those who gave that reaction to you will very often be your best assistants in acquiring the skills you need.  That reaction is meant as a nudge to you to acquire them.

----
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 01:40 PM 12/31/2020, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I disagree 100 percent. I actually do think "click tools" while I press
alt t, or whatever.
Is that so? Let's test whether your supposed inner thought actually works. Turn off your screen reader and stow away your keyboard, leaving nothing but a silent computer and a mouse. What would pointing to and clicking Tools mean to you then, when you couldn't even find Tools on the screen? Your
claim is entirely disingenuous; you only cling to it out of the necessity to promote a ridiculous position. When you press alt+T, you know damn well that, in your case, and in the rest of ours, it is that key command that is bringing down Tools; no pointing or clicking are involved.

When I do my sound editing in windows or mac using
reaper I think "adjust the wave form to reflect blah blah blah." so yes
I do think in sighted terms. or I'm drawing a sign wave, etc and I'm
clicking these two points to do such, with the keyboard. so yes you must
think in sighted terms in order to understand most things now a days.
Your thinking on this issue is downright toxic to everyone compelled to call you "teacher." Sound is not wave forms in a pictorial sense; sound waves move through air, which has nothing to do with 2-dimensional depictions of wave forms in audio editing. I have edited audio for twenty years and have never once thought about drawing wave forms, since neither screen readers nor Braille displays can translate drawn wave forms into any output I can comprehend. At times, I admire what is evident to sighted musicians simply by glancing at wave form depictions of audio. However, I classify that admiration in the same group as my admiration for a myriad visual manifestations of beauty.


Orlando Enrique Fiol


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

I agree. Not everybody is good at doing searches. Sometimes you could search unless you're blue in the face and you don't always find good results.

On 1/4/2021 8:28 AM, Mike Capelle wrote:
OMG, if someone asks me a question, I will answer it, telling someone to look it up or research it, is rude!

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris Smart
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 10:27 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

LOL! At least she didn't dictate it without punctuation.


On 2021-01-04 11:14 a.m., Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io wrote:
At 12:12 AM 12/31/2020, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I don't even do that much. I expect a person to read and read a
manual, a
quick start guide, etc before asking any lists for help. in fact on many
of the lists I run I say "to cut down on traffic, do you own research
first before coming to us." I've learned a lot by googling or trying to
read a quick start guide if it is out there. One example is on the block
chain, but that I won't go into here. That is one of many examples where
i shove my nose into a something and attempt to memorize.
First of all, learn to use a freaking spell checker. What should have
been the word "read" came out as the string "RRY," which means
nothing. I corrected six errors in this hastily-typed email just to
understand its simplistic significance. Just as you want to tell blind
people to point and click when you know which other terms would be
more relatable and effective, you want to type these emails however
you please, leaving us to figure out what you mean through your
misspellings. Bottom line: Sarah doesn't have to change what how she
says or how she types it. We have to work around her. This is not how
the "sighted world" works, sweet pea. I've had academic papers sent
back and even rejected for spell checking and formatting issues. So,
if you're going to insist on us adapting to the sighted world, do it
yourself, girl. Learn to use a freaking spell checker.


Orlando Enrique Fiol
Charlotte, North Carolina
Professional Pianist/Keyboardist, Percussionist and Pedagogue
Ph.D. in Music theory
University of Pennsylvania: November, 2018
Home: (980) 585-1516
Mobile: (267) 971-7090











Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Mike Capelle <mcap1000@...>
 

OMG, if someone asks me a question, I will answer it, telling someone to look it up or research it, is rude!

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris Smart
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 10:27 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

LOL! At least she didn't dictate it without punctuation.


On 2021-01-04 11:14 a.m., Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io wrote:
At 12:12 AM 12/31/2020, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I don't even do that much. I expect a person to read and read a
manual, a
quick start guide, etc before asking any lists for help. in fact on many
of the lists I run I say "to cut down on traffic, do you own research
first before coming to us." I've learned a lot by googling or trying to
read a quick start guide if it is out there. One example is on the block
chain, but that I won't go into here. That is one of many examples where
i shove my nose into a something and attempt to memorize.
First of all, learn to use a freaking spell checker. What should have
been the word "read" came out as the string "RRY," which means
nothing. I corrected six errors in this hastily-typed email just to
understand its simplistic significance. Just as you want to tell blind
people to point and click when you know which other terms would be
more relatable and effective, you want to type these emails however
you please, leaving us to figure out what you mean through your
misspellings. Bottom line: Sarah doesn't have to change what how she
says or how she types it. We have to work around her. This is not how
the "sighted world" works, sweet pea. I've had academic papers sent
back and even rejected for spell checking and formatting issues. So,
if you're going to insist on us adapting to the sighted world, do it
yourself, girl. Learn to use a freaking spell checker.


Orlando Enrique Fiol
Charlotte, North Carolina
Professional Pianist/Keyboardist, Percussionist and Pedagogue
Ph.D. in Music theory
University of Pennsylvania: November, 2018
Home: (980) 585-1516
Mobile: (267) 971-7090





Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Chris Smart
 

LOL! At least she didn't dictate it without punctuation.

On 2021-01-04 11:14 a.m., Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io wrote:
At 12:12 AM 12/31/2020, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I don't even do that much. I expect a person to read and read a
manual, a
quick start guide, etc before asking any lists for help. in fact on many
of the lists I run I say "to cut down on traffic, do you own research
first before coming to us." I've learned a lot by googling or trying to
read a quick start guide if it is out there. One example is on the block
chain, but that I won't go into here. That is one of many examples where
i shove my nose into a something and attempt to memorize.
First of all, learn to use a freaking spell checker. What should have been the word "read" came out as the string "RRY," which means nothing.  I corrected six errors in this hastily-typed email just to understand its simplistic significance. Just as you want to tell blind people to point and click when you know which other terms would be more relatable and effective, you want to type these emails however you please, leaving us to figure out what you mean through your misspellings. Bottom line: Sarah doesn't have to change what how she says or how she types it. We have to work around her. This is not how the "sighted world" works, sweet pea. I've had academic papers sent back and even rejected for spell checking and formatting issues. So, if you're going to insist on us adapting to the sighted world, do it yourself, girl. Learn to use a freaking spell checker.


Orlando Enrique Fiol
Charlotte, North Carolina
Professional Pianist/Keyboardist, Percussionist and Pedagogue
Ph.D. in Music theory
University of Pennsylvania: November, 2018
Home: (980) 585-1516
Mobile: (267) 971-7090




Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

OK, ladies and gentlemen.  I was not kidding:  Do NOT continue to topic split, or I will end up locking all these topics.  Keep it on the original topic, into which this will be merged.

This is not a request.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 01:29 AM 12/31/2020, Buddy Brannan wrote:
I dunno about the rest of you, but I sure don't live in a sighted
world. Or a blind world. I live in…wait for it…the world. All of
this "sighted world"�and "blind world"� and what not drives me
up a tree.
Amen! Sighted people may constitute an unquestionable majority of human beings on this planet, but that doesn't give them license to silence all other perspectives relevant to those who either have never seen or must now learn to live without sight.

Also, Brian, you do so well, I mean you handle all of this
stuff so well, we nearly forget your handicap. (He says, with tongue
firmly in cheek)
I second that. Brian could thumb his nose at all our adaptive technologies and associated terminologies. Yet, day after day, he's here, translating back and forth from our language into the mainstream sight-centered lingo, usually with steadfast patience and consideration.


Orlando Enrique Fiol


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Orlando,


When I'm helping a friend with a site or something, I use either activate or hit enter on that particular item. I rarely use the term click unless I'm helping someone sighted. The other day I was helping a friend to download a music file he got from someone else and I told him to hit enter on the file. Just because a person doesn't use the term click, that doesn't mean he'll be left behind. These are just my thoughts.


Rosemarie

On 1/4/2021 8:05 AM, Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io wrote:
At 12:08 AM 12/31/2020, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
You might say "click on settings" or "if that doesn't say settings,
click on the mic icon."
I sure wouldn't especially to my fellow blindies. To the sighted, icons are meant to capture their ocular attention. For us, icons are things to be searched for. If there were no other way to activate an element besides finding an icon, I'd tell a blind person to do a screen search for a specific word and activate the element under which that word appears. This of course assumes that all icons have been labeled with alt text. If not, searching for icons does us absolutely no good.
Contrary to what you obviously believe, even Microsoft's documentation does not exclusively employ icon and mouse-oriented language. If Microsoft has finally come to understand that inclusive language will ultimately help sell more of their product to the blind and otherwise disabled, you, as a blind woman, should have no trouble understanding that the technological vocabulary we've developed is not inferior to the more ubiquitous sighted vocabulary. While being able to translate into pedestrian sightling computerspeak can be a valuable skill, no one will be left behind if they say "activate" rather than "point and click".
Your music teacher sadly internalized a very outmoded thinking about blind assimilation--namely, that we must constantly think and act as though we were sighted, completely denying and denigrating our valid reality. I have read Braille music fluently for forty years. In many ways, I consider Braille notation more efficient and comprehensible than print notation. Yet, I've taught dozens of sighted students to read their staves from scratch because I followed my blind theory teacher's advice to "Learn the staff, Orly. You'll need it someday when you teach." Although I can teach the staff in my sleep, I make no bones about the fact that I never have, and never will, think in terms of the pictorial perspective that staff notation represents.


Orlando Enrique Fiol
Charlotte, North Carolina
Professional Pianist/Keyboardist, Percussionist and Pedagogue
Ph.D. in Music theory
University of Pennsylvania: November, 2018
Home: (980) 585-1516
Mobile: (267) 971-7090




Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

To anyone who intends to respond to issues raised on this topic, please do NOT split the topic by creating a new subject line.  This particular topic was given a "special dispensation" from the group owner to discuss things not generally germane to the NVDA group, and those who are not interested probably can and have used the mute topic  function to keep from having to read any additional messages.

Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote, in part, "Sighted folks rarely think in blind terms." This is absolutely true, and I have to ask, "Why should they?" Each and every one of us thinks in terms appropriate to the sensory palette that we happen to possess, and I don't know of many who think in terms outside that. Do you think, "in deaf terms?" I'd say it's almost certain you don't, nor do I. This is true of me because I can't sign and true of someone who can't see for precisely the same reason, but why you can't sign and I can't sign may have different roots.

As to your assertion that there is a denigration of blind-centric language, I just don't see that anywhere.  Stating that one needs to understand and be fluid in the conventions of the larger world, even when there are additional and different conventions within a subculture, isn't denigrating the subculture at all.  It's simply stating a fact.

And your analogy regarding people giving specific instructions when myriad alternatives exist just doesn't hold water.  It is up to the listener, as Sarah has said, to apply the principles someone's offered in one way to whatever way they use.  That's how the world, all of it, works.  No one can possibly know what all the exceptions to something they're offering might be in reference to another.  And if that another doesn't understand, they ask for clarification, or should.  Getting and giving assistance or information is a two-way exchange, or sometimes must be.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 12:12 AM 12/31/2020, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I don't even do that much. I expect a person to read and read a manual, a
quick start guide, etc before asking any lists for help. in fact on many
of the lists I run I say "to cut down on traffic, do you own research
first before coming to us." I've learned a lot by googling or trying to
read a quick start guide if it is out there. One example is on the block
chain, but that I won't go into here. That is one of many examples where
i shove my nose into a something and attempt to memorize.
First of all, learn to use a freaking spell checker. What should have been the word "read" came out as the string "RRY," which means nothing. I corrected six errors in this hastily-typed email just to understand its simplistic significance. Just as you want to tell blind people to point and click when you know which other terms would be more relatable and effective, you want to type these emails however you please, leaving us to figure out what you mean through your misspellings. Bottom line: Sarah doesn't have to change what how she says or how she types it. We have to work around her. This is not how the "sighted world" works, sweet pea. I've had academic papers sent back and even rejected for spell checking and formatting issues. So, if you're going to insist on us adapting to the sighted world, do it yourself, girl. Learn to use a freaking spell checker.


Orlando Enrique Fiol
Charlotte, North Carolina
Professional Pianist/Keyboardist, Percussionist and Pedagogue
Ph.D. in Music theory
University of Pennsylvania: November, 2018
Home: (980) 585-1516
Mobile: (267) 971-7090


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 12:08 AM 12/31/2020, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
You might say "click on settings" or "if that doesn't say settings,
click on the mic icon."
I sure wouldn't especially to my fellow blindies. To the sighted, icons are meant to capture their ocular attention. For us, icons are things to be searched for. If there were no other way to activate an element besides finding an icon, I'd tell a blind person to do a screen search for a specific word and activate the element under which that word appears. This of course assumes that all icons have been labeled with alt text. If not, searching for icons does us absolutely no good.
Contrary to what you obviously believe, even Microsoft's documentation does not exclusively employ icon and mouse-oriented language. If Microsoft has finally come to understand that inclusive language will ultimately help sell more of their product to the blind and otherwise disabled, you, as a blind woman, should have no trouble understanding that the technological vocabulary we've developed is not inferior to the more ubiquitous sighted vocabulary. While being able to translate into pedestrian sightling computerspeak can be a valuable skill, no one will be left behind if they say "activate" rather than "point and click".
Your music teacher sadly internalized a very outmoded thinking about blind assimilation--namely, that we must constantly think and act as though we were sighted, completely denying and denigrating our valid reality. I have read Braille music fluently for forty years. In many ways, I consider Braille notation more efficient and comprehensible than print notation. Yet, I've taught dozens of sighted students to read their staves from scratch because I followed my blind theory teacher's advice to "Learn the staff, Orly. You'll need it someday when you teach." Although I can teach the staff in my sleep, I make no bones about the fact that I never have, and never will, think in terms of the pictorial perspective that staff notation represents.


Orlando Enrique Fiol
Charlotte, North Carolina
Professional Pianist/Keyboardist, Percussionist and Pedagogue
Ph.D. in Music theory
University of Pennsylvania: November, 2018
Home: (980) 585-1516
Mobile: (267) 971-7090


Re: Questions regarding SwitchSynth

Fawaz Abdul rahman
 

Hi, if I remember correct, you hit the slot you want then you press NVDA+shift+control+v.

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Sharad Koirala
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 6:35 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Questions regarding SwitchSynth

 

hi,

my question could sound very basic..

but how do we assign different synthesizers to different slots in this

addon?  I am not being able to do it..

 

thank you,

 

On 1/4/21, Jacob Kruger <jacob@...> wrote:

> Morne, one question - if you turn on input help, and, hit the keystroke

> assigned to selecting the first slot, what does it tell you?

> As in, make sure there's no other bit of functionality assigned to

> selecting the first slot?

> Jacob Kruger

> Blind Biker

> Skype: BlindZA

> "...resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."

> On 2020-12-31 12:45 PM, Morne van der Merwe wrote:

>> 

>> Good day list,

>> 

>> I use a laptop with the latest version of Windows, as well as NVDA.

>> 

>> I have two questions regarding the SwitchSynth addon.

>> 

>> According to the addon, there are six slots to load languages on. The

>> first slot, however, doesn’t work. I can only load language from slot

>> 2 onwards.

>> 

>> When I select my language, the settings ring does not work. I have to

>> reload NVDA in order for the settings ring to function.

>> 

>> Any help will be much appreciated.

>> 

>> Regards

>> 

>> Morné

>> 

>> 

>

 

 

--

Dr. Sharad Koirala

Lecturer

Department of Community Medicine

Gandaki Medical College, Pokhara, Nepal

 

 

 

 

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 12:07 AM 12/31/2020, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
We live in a sighted world. You must think in sighted terms, no matter
your age. I was taught like this by an older instructor of music. None
of us got left behind, and for those of us that did, they dropped
quickly leaving the rest of us to pass.

Sighted folks rarely think in blind terms; when they do, it's usually because they work with us or have appointed themselves our advocates. There's a difference between knowing how to speak another language in order to communicate with more people, and being taught to denigrate your own language as inferior. i happen to speak six languages to varying extents of fluency, so plenty of translation goes on in my mind all the time. However, I don't intrinsically assume that English is superior to all other languages because it's a global lingua franca. After all, the vast majority of the world's population does not speak English at all. Nonetheless, people from al over the world realize that English allows people from different countries and continents to communicate in a common language that they otherwise wouldn't share.
In our case, the language of pointing and clicking is a relatively recent arrival to the computer lexicon. Before that, most computer concepts were understood from a command line perspective. Besides, there is a more neutral and inclusive alternative to "point and click": activate. This one word conveys many important messages, most important, that there are numerous ways to activate elements besides using the physical mouse, and that even sighted users can opt for keyboard activation.
Telling anyone to point and click is like telling them to obtain food by driving a specific car to a specific grocery store. In reality, they could take a bus or train, hitch a ride, ask for a lift, even walk to a grocery store; a specific car make and model is far from the only means of conveyance, just as pointing and clicking are not the only ways to activate elements.
Orlando Enrique Fiol
Charlotte, North Carolina
Professional Pianist/Keyboardist, Percussionist and Pedagogue
Ph.D. in Music theory
University of Pennsylvania: November, 2018
Home: (980) 585-1516
Mobile: (267) 971-7090


Re: Outlook 2016 NVDA not announcing To & CC fields separately

Gene
 

Whether the issue is corrected, have you tried the read current line as you type? I don't know if you are using the laptop or desktop layout and I don't know the laptop layout, but using the desktop layout, it may be more convenient to use the read current line of object command, numpad 8. You may well hear whatever is being suggested on that line and if it changes as you continue to type. If you down arrow to hear other suggestions, are they announced automatically?

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Ramesh Patil
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 2:34 AM
To: nvda
Subject: Re: [nvda] Outlook 2016 NVDA not announcing To & CC fields separately



Another issue I am facing that NVDA not announcing suggestions of email IDs in To and Cc fields. Pls clear



On Mon, Jan 4, 2021, 12:59 PM Ramesh Patil via groups.io <ramesh.patil1989=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:


Expand the header solves the issues. Thank you so much



On Sun, Jan 3, 2021, 3:33 PM Ralf Kefferpuetz <ralf.kefferpuetz@elra-consulting.de> wrote:
Guys, was there anything unclear in my earlier response? Expand the header fields in Outlook once and the addon reads all the fields as required. Such simpel...

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Samstag, 2. Januar 2021 20:25
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Outlook 2016 NVDA not announcing To & CC fields separately

I don't know how the add-on works and I don't use Outlook. But what happens if you open a message and start tabbing backwards? See if you start moving through fields such as subject, and other fields including those you want to see.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis L
Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2021 12:58 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Outlook 2016 NVDA not announcing To & CC fields separately

Other screen readers have this ability for years. NVDA should also have this ability.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ralf Kefferpuetz
Sent: Saturday, January 2, 2021 7:33 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Outlook 2016 NVDA not announcing To & CC fields separately

Hello,
There is nothing we can do from an addon perspective, you need to expand the outlook message header. Pls see this link:
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/msoffice/forum/msoffice_outlook-mso_win10-mso_2016/show-to-and-cc-separately-in-open-message-in/7717805d-141a-4997-a440-0b1579752259?auth=1

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ramesh Patil
Sent: Samstag, 2. Januar 2021 09:41
To: nvda <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [nvda] Outlook 2016 NVDA not announcing To & CC fields separately

Sir,

I am using NVDA and outlook 2016 with addon outlook extended. But by keystroke ALT + 3 NVDA will announce both To and CC fields of mail together.
we can not able to understand which mail id is of CC and which of To field.
Addon developer please guide or any other way to listen CC and To fields separately

Ramesh Patil

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