Date   

Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 06:31 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
First, direct link to the opening message:
https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/message/80182
Activating that link takes me to a page telling me everything I do and don't want to know about the original message except the message itself, with no keyboard-friendly way of navigating to subsequent messages in the thread. Most email clients have key commands for previous and next message; if they don't, and have no way to configure them, you can guess where I chuck them.


Orlando


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 06:23 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
Betsy, you know I've lent you a hand directly on occasions, and I
would be happy to keep doing so in regard to polishing your web and/or
archive search skills such that you know the process for zeroing in on
what you're looking for in a very great many cases. That would be a
great Chat Subgroup topic for any and all who want to join in and
improve such skills.
My frustrations with online searches are not with phrasing my queries in order to get hits; I usually get hundreds to thousands of results. My issue is in finding the relevant information on the pages for each activated result. Microsoft's forums, the Super User forums and many others are so cluttered with header information, upvote/downvote crap and ads for driver checking software that I often find myself no better informed after navigating those pages by links, text, controls, articles, block quotes, etc.
I can only imagine how frustrated a beginner would feel when queering Google for, say, the key command to begin playback from the beginning of a file in VLC. The documentation includes no complete hotkey list, and the hotkey dialogue itself is horribly inaccessible.. Videoland's VLC forums are full of exhausting threads and subthreads lasting pages and pages.
But, I happened to mention this to a sighted friend the other day. He did a Google search and it took even him nearly ten minutes to ascertain that the relevant key command is nothing more than the letter P.
Now, come on, we shouldn't have to read through dozens of forum threads to learn that. This is what frustrates people; the signal-to-noise ratio during online searches is very low. I would want to type "VLC Key Commands" into Google and get a hit saying, "Complete List of VLC Key Commands" or shortcut keys. I don't want to read dozens of forum thread to ascertain a single key command.
If you like, I can figure out how to export in some form my last hundred Google searches. Choose, say, three, and time yourself, of course working only with a keyboard and screen reader, to see how long it takes for the relevant question to be answered. I think you'll be unpleasantly disappointed.


Orlando


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 07:18 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
How this has managed to get through so many of NVDA versions without being addressed, with the cooperation of so many blind users, is baffling.
-
I'd say because your specific needs are not broadly shared, which is not to say they're wrong.  User bases as a whole tend to request feature updates they want most the most frequently, and that figures in to prioritization.

Have you ever looked at the GitHub issues (specifically open ones) for NVDA to see if what you're asking for is even "on the radar screen"?  Sometimes things you'd think might be just aren't, and it's because most either don't need it or no one has ever made the effort to put in an issue.  One of the great things about NVDA is that there exists a far more direct line to the development team from the end users via GitHub than exists for other software.

And none of the above is meant to imply that NVDA should be your first choice.  Tool to task, and there are times when NVDA is not the best tool for a given task or cluster of tasks depending on context and what the end user finds preferable.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 06:06 PM 1/4/2021, Chris Smart wrote:
Betsy, have you tried the NVDA basic training?
I'm going through it now, after using another screen reader for
many years, and I find it to be quite well written and organized, with lots of little exercises to actually work through.

I know we're on the NVDA list. But I may as well come clean. NVDA will never be my primary screen reader until it gives me control over the exact order of spoken elements. Every other screen reader provides this. If I'm going through a list of check boxes and want to hear which ones are checked, I need the state spoken either first or right after the control type, not at the end of its field data. For another example, if I'm in a dialogue where I know that its only combo edit box changes a particular setting, I need my screen reader to announce the control type first while I quickly tab between fields. How this has managed to get through so many of NVDA versions without being addressed, with the cooperation of so many blind users, is baffling.


Orlando


Re: Using Groups.io, some handy info

 

Gene,

          I have no problem with anyone using any of my material with attribution.  And I have no problem with it being reformatted to be more screen reader friendly or medium friendly (e.g., webpages versus documents, which use different formatting conventions).

          I don't really care if a "with NVDA" is tacked on, but I will say that I go to some pretty great lengths to be as screen reader agnostic as I can.  As an example, I may say something like, "Navigate to the close button and activate it."   How you, as an individual do that with the screen reader you're using is not something I attempt to explain, as these tutorials do not have screen reader skills as their focus.  But if you wish to NVDA-ify some of it to be much more explicit, be my guest.  You'll see that Timothy Wynn revised the section regarding how to set advanced preferences with a screen reader, and this screen-reader centric version was superior to my original, so in it went with attribution.

I only wish I were paid for the material I've generated over the years, but I never generated it with monetary compensation being the expected end.  It's a sort of casting of my bread upon the water . . .
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

The owner of this list gave permission for us to keep this discussion going. Didn'tyou read the first message?

On 1/4/2021 11:01 AM, Laurie Mehta via groups.io wrote:
I am making a request regarding this thread. Due to the subject line that was chosen, it seems that the topic is something that should be actually a notice from the administration that we should all please read. However, the discussion under this subject line has definitely evolved from that original purpose. Could you please change the subject line for the archive purposes and for the purpose of people who may want to bypass this topic?
This chat that is going on is not something I am interested in and yet I hesitate to ignore something that the administration has asked the list to please read. Thank you for your attention in this matter and thank you for this list to discuss questions regarding NVDA.
I apologize in advance if the dictation I used has not come out clearly. My laptop is in need of service and so I am temporarily using just an iPhone. Thanks all, Laurie Mehta




Re: Using Groups.io, some handy info

hurrikennyandopo ...
 

Hi Brian


Would I be able to use your tutorials up on the Accessibility Central.net website for others to reference. I would combine the tutorials into one page with headings to jump down to each section.


If allowed they would most probably go to the nvda tutorials for other programs page.


I would like to have your name there as a contributor unless you do not want me to add it there.


If I was to change any thing it would just be the name of the web page using .... with nvda if you get what I mean.



Gene nz




On 5/01/2021 12:02 pm, Brian Vogel wrote:
Hello All,

          Someone just wrote to me privately asking about using Mute this Topic and noting that he was asked to log in to Groups.io, which you absolutely will need to do on occasion, as what keeps track of the topics you mute is associated with your Groups.io account.

           When you subscribe to any Groups.io group, the e-mail address you used to do so becomes your login ID and an account, that is "without password but can't be logged in to on the web until you set one," is created.  

Here are several tutorials I've written that will allow you to set things up so that you can use the advanced features that Groups.io gives you:

Establishing a Groups.io Website Account Password If You’ve Been an E-Mail Only User (docx) - The most basic, and first thing you must do.  This information is repeated in the tutorial on controlling the mail you get from Groups.io, but I made a standalone version that only covers the steps to do this.  Once you do this, the Mute this Topic link becomes a "click and its done" affair provided you logged in using the browser that's your default browser and haven't closed that browser and cleared cookies.  Mute this topic uses the web interface, but not in such a way that you need to interact with it, you just need to have access to your account, which means just staying logged in once you are logged in.


Changing the Email Address for Your Groups.io Account (docx) - If you ever want to ditch your current email address, and have subscribed to multiple groups using it, you need not unsubscribe from all of them and resubscribe with the new address.  You can simply log in to your Groups.io account and change the email address associated with it.  Doing so will also change your login ID to that new email address rather than the one you were using.

Controlling the Messages You Receive via E-Mail from Groups.io (docx) - The title says it all, and there are some very nifty tricks you can use to get exquisite control over what lands in your inbox and under what conditions for any group to which you're subscribed.

I am happy to give additional information on anything that might not be clear in the above tutorials.  It's to all of our advantages that each member knows how to get what they want out of the Groups.io experience.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Gene
 

A discussion of the sort would likely have to include information such as looking at a series of messages efficiently on a Groups.io page and if you search using something like Google, how to read forums efficiently.

I should add that I generally don't see Brian give individual members a hard time about searching.

If something like this is done on the chat list, perhaps saving and organizing the messages into a sort of tutorial might be useful if the messages, taken together, give good information that will allow for good searching.

If expanded slightly, such a tutorial might help many people with general Internet use.

Also, I don't know how much the NVDA training material teaches about how to use the Internet but if it does so in detail, it might be useful to make that well known since, unless things have changed, using the Internet well was one of the most lacking skills many years ago based on what I observed. Even many people who generally knew how to use computers well had problems using the Internet.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 5:23 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 05:57 PM, Betsy Grenevitch wrote:
I am so technologically challenged that most manuals are not written in a vocabulary or step order that I am able to follow.-
And you're far from alone in that. Believe me, even for computer geeks there is an awful lot of documentation that leaves a very great deal to be desired.

Betsy, you know I've lent you a hand directly on occasions, and I would be happy to keep doing so in regard to polishing your web and/or archive search skills such that you know the process for zeroing in on what you're looking for in a very great many cases. That would be a great Chat Subgroup topic for any and all who want to join in and improve such skills.

It's impossible to get things such that you will likely get the one and only answer that's the one you prefer, but at least you can get something that will allow you to plow through the minimum number of search results to get maximum information. It's an art form where, when teaching it, I try to teach people to "aim for the middle by being as specific as one reasonably can," then either becoming less specific if you get nothing or next to nothing, or supply a few more specific terms in the search if you're inundated by many thousands of results. You, and anyone, can develop the skill that allows you to turn a fire hose down to a syringe and any volume in between.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

~ Brian Vogel


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 06:23 PM, Laurie Mehta wrote:
Among the haystack of messages under this  subject line, I missed the information that  you seem to be referencing.
-
First, direct link to the opening message:  https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/message/80182 

Second, and I make no apology for it, if you (any you) are not using threaded (AKA conversation) view in your e-mail or webmail then you need to do so.  It makes finding the first through last message (but particularly those two) in any given exchange a cinch.  And don't delete individual messages until the entire topic is exhausted, or you think it is, as you can wipe out all of them at once when you finally do so.  The reason this format came into existence is to allow the retention of context and easy location of a topic as a thing, rather than scattered individual messages.

The message linked to above should be the very first (or last, depending on your date sort order) one in the thread/conversation.  It's a cinch to find it later.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Laurie Mehta
 

Among the haystack of messages under this  subject line, I missed the information that  you seem to be referencing.



Laurie Mehta
“May the Lord of peace himself give you peace at all times and in every way.”
 (2 Thessalonians 3:16) 

On Jan 4, 2021, at 14:21, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 02:01 PM, Laurie Mehta wrote:
Could you please change the subject line for the archive purposes and for the purpose of people who may want to bypass this topic?
-
No.  The original message was an admin notice, and shortly after that the following was included by the group owner in message number  
"Thanks everyone for this discussion. Ordinarily, I would say that this should be moved to the chat list, but maybe we'll keep it going for a bit longer, as it seems like an important dialog to be having."

That was a clear breaking point from the original Admin notice, and was the opportunity for anyone who needed to do so to Mute this Topic if all they wanted to do was to have reviewed the Admin Notice.

Groups.io gives members the ability to control the messages they get, and they need to use them.  If you've read the admin notice, but are still interested in wherever this topic continues to go, then leave it open and keep reading it.  You already know that the real admin notice part of it was concluded days ago.

I can see no reason to retitle the topic at all, because it is not, in reality, a single topic.  It's a freeform meta topic that will eventually burn out, but while it's still alive should remain in its original container, mostly because that makes it easy for those who wish to mute it to do so.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 05:57 PM, Betsy Grenevitch wrote:
I am so technologically challenged that most manuals are not written in a vocabulary or step order that I am able to follow.
-
And you're far from alone in that.  Believe me, even for computer geeks there is an awful lot of documentation that leaves a very great deal to be desired.

Betsy, you know I've lent you a hand directly on occasions, and I would be happy to keep doing so in regard to polishing your web and/or archive search skills such that you know the process for zeroing in on what you're looking for in a very great many cases.  That would be a great Chat Subgroup topic for any and all who want to join in and improve such skills.

It's impossible to get things such that you will likely get the one and only answer that's the one you prefer, but at least you can get something that will allow you to plow through the minimum number of search results to get maximum information.  It's an art form where, when teaching it, I try to teach people to "aim for the middle by being as specific as one reasonably can," then either becoming less specific if you get nothing or next to nothing, or supply a few more specific terms in the search if you're inundated by many thousands of results.  You, and anyone, can develop the skill that allows you to turn a fire hose down to a syringe and any volume in between.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 06:04 PM, Chris Smart wrote:
I think that what seems to annoy people is when someone asks a particularly simple question on a list, when in the time it takes to type and send the email, and wait for responses, they could have typed a couple words into Google and found the answer.
-
I'd say that's the most precise and accurate characterization I've seen.  And I have yet to see a single instance where I was irritated where the answer would not have been obtained far more immediately had perhaps 3 words used in the subject or post (or combination) been used for a search.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Chris Smart
 

Betsy, have you tried the NVDA basic training?


I'm going through it now, after using another screen reader for many years, and I find it to be quite well written and organized, with lots of little exercises to actually work through.


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Chris Smart
 

No, that's a dangerous blanket statement. Each of us comes to this with different skill and experience levels.

I think that what seems to annoy people is when someone asks a particularly simple question on a list, when in the time it takes to type and send the email, and wait for responses, they could have typed a couple words into Google and found the answer.

On 2021-01-04 5:36 p.m., Don H wrote:
So do I understand it correctly that posting to this list should be your last option to get help after doing a search for the answer?

On 1/4/2021 4:13 PM, Gene wrote:
There is a reason Brian is a voice in the wilderness and he stated it in his.  He said that as long as people don't let it be known that it is an imposition and annoyance to have people ask questions without searching, nothing will change.


The reason people don't make an issue of this on such lists is because they know and many may have experienced, many of the reasons more blind people don't know how to search.  They have received poor training, they may only have very limited interested in what they want to use their computers for, they may be learning but not to the point of knowing how to use the Internet well, there are all sorts of reasons.


I know Brian is willing to teach people but if all those who want to ask questions and don't know how to teach asked for such teaching, the demand would be enormous.


Gene
-----Original Message-----
We've all heard the possibly apocryphal Chinese adage, "Give a man fish and feed him for a day; teach him how to fish and feed him for life."
In many of these "pushback" exchanges, the pusher isn't teaching this person how to fish at all; they're just scolding them and sending them away for being piss-poor fishermen. For the most part, most blind people understand how painful it is to be dependent, especially if they've lost their sight later in life and were fiercely independent while sighted. They feel awful about having to ask simple questions or forgetting information they got before. I always help these folks, many of whom are elderly and will never become as computer-fluent as many of us are. If I know the answer to their question and can write it succinctly, it takes less time than admonishing them about not previously searching online for answers.
Many of our list members are relatively recent computer owners/users, taught an inferior step-by-step by rehab agencies who don't rehabilitate anyone from anything. Their entire world is now a scary place, where they cannot trust their remaining senses and where danger lurks on every corner. They read about online identity theft and viruses, about novice users turning their boxes into bricks, and become hyper-cautious about pressing even one key that hasn't been preapproved in someone's step-by-step instructions.
These lists are not the places to fault these people for losing their sight or for being incorrectly taught by the only agencies available to them. Just once, rather than embarking on one of these interminable threads admonishing people for allegedly not conducting online searches before asking questions, (something impossible to prove anyway), I'd like to see someone post a compassionate response:
"Don't feel bad, but your question is pretty basic and has been answered here and online. How long have you used computers? Can you do X, Y and Z? Have you ever tried to search online? Which browser and screen reader do you use? Can you navigate between search results and activate them? If you want to copy some text from what you read online, can you do that and paste it into a document? Do you have trouble understanding what's being described online (I.E., icons, sliders, dragable elements, animations, etc.)? If so, tell me which issues you're facing and I'll help you."
That's the kid of step-by-step that these folks need: how to navigate search results in a web browser, how to find actual responses on web forums amidst all the posting headers and
shameless ads, how to copy/paste text from the web into documents, how to explore top-level menu bars and ribbon controls, how to listen for keyboard mnemonics, how to configure screen readers to report keyboard mnemonics, etc.
None of us learned to fish by being mocked when we couldn't even hook a line or cast a pole. Yet, because it makes us feel self-righteous and important, especially in a world that so frequently tears us down with impunity, we visit the same suffering upon these hapless souls whose only "infractions" are being blind and knowing next to nothing about modern technologies.
In case some of you think I may preach more than I practice, ask around how many people I've emailed privately to help with their problems, how many times I've talked with them by phone and tandemed into their computers to do hours of configurations that would ultimately facilitate their lives. Ask how many people have gotten detailed explanations from me about Windows controls, settings, web browsers, audio applications, word processors, even registry and group policy settings.

Orlando












Using Groups.io, some handy info

 

Hello All,

          Someone just wrote to me privately asking about using Mute this Topic and noting that he was asked to log in to Groups.io, which you absolutely will need to do on occasion, as what keeps track of the topics you mute is associated with your Groups.io account.

           When you subscribe to any Groups.io group, the e-mail address you used to do so becomes your login ID and an account, that is "without password but can't be logged in to on the web until you set one," is created.  

Here are several tutorials I've written that will allow you to set things up so that you can use the advanced features that Groups.io gives you:

Establishing a Groups.io Website Account Password If You’ve Been an E-Mail Only User (docx) - The most basic, and first thing you must do.  This information is repeated in the tutorial on controlling the mail you get from Groups.io, but I made a standalone version that only covers the steps to do this.  Once you do this, the Mute this Topic link becomes a "click and its done" affair provided you logged in using the browser that's your default browser and haven't closed that browser and cleared cookies.  Mute this topic uses the web interface, but not in such a way that you need to interact with it, you just need to have access to your account, which means just staying logged in once you are logged in.


Changing the Email Address for Your Groups.io Account (docx) - If you ever want to ditch your current email address, and have subscribed to multiple groups using it, you need not unsubscribe from all of them and resubscribe with the new address.  You can simply log in to your Groups.io account and change the email address associated with it.  Doing so will also change your login ID to that new email address rather than the one you were using.

Controlling the Messages You Receive via E-Mail from Groups.io (docx) - The title says it all, and there are some very nifty tricks you can use to get exquisite control over what lands in your inbox and under what conditions for any group to which you're subscribed.

I am happy to give additional information on anything that might not be clear in the above tutorials.  It's to all of our advantages that each member knows how to get what they want out of the Groups.io experience.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Betsy Grenevitch
 

I have stay quiet until now but will say that I am not great at searching for answers to computer questions unless I have already written down the instructions in my own files in a way that I would understand them. I am so technologically challenged that most manuals are not written in a vocabulary or step order that I am able to follow.


It is good to hear that there are some here who do not mind us asking questions on the list. I would have never learned some things about NVDA, otherwise.



On 1/4/2021 11:36 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 11:28 AM, Mike Capelle wrote:
OMG, if someone asks me a question, I will answer it, telling someone to look it up or research it, is rude!
-
Sorry, Mike, but I have to disagree, and not just in reference to blind groups/lists, though I see what follows happen more frequently on them.

Anyone, before they impose upon the time of over a thousand people, should think about whether what they're about to ask is likely already answered and whether the answers to same are readily available to them without imposing on the time of others.  Expecting that someone will have lifted a finger before imposing on the time of group members is not unreasonable, at all, and I have seen many messages over the years where the effort to type the subject and text took more effort than distilling what was in the subject to a very tightly focused web search that would have produced the answer many times over would have.  It is lazy, and rude, to ask that sort of question without having tried to find it yourself, first.

Another segment from my "Expectations of Members" document that I have used in group rules elsewhere, but not on the NVDA Group, is pertinent:
----

1.        You will have done a web search and/or group archive search before posting almost any question, because the vast majority of questions relevant to online communities have been answered, repeatedly.  It is rude to impose upon the time of hundreds to thousands of people regarding questions that have answers that can be found independently with very little effort and basic skills.

2.       If you are told, “There’s this thing called a web search,” or, “Google is your friend,” or similar that you realize you deserve it.  I have yet to see this response to anything that does not warrant it.  If you ask something that indicates you didn’t follow the practices outlined in items 2 thru 4, before asking online and imposing on the time of others when that’s completely unnecessary, this is a perfectly legitimate response to that.  You’ve been lazy and rude; don’t repeat that mistake.

3.       If you receive a reaction such as those in #5 above, the appropriate response is NEVER to argue back.  The one and only response that is appropriate, if you actually do not have the skills to do your own searching, is to ask for assistance in acquiring same, period.  Believe it or not, those who gave that reaction to you will very often be your best assistants in acquiring the skills you need.  That reaction is meant as a nudge to you to acquire them.

----
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 

--
Betsy Grenevitch 678-862-3876


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 05:36 PM, Don H wrote:
So do I understand it correctly that posting to this list should be your last option to get help after doing a search for the answer?
-
I would say that, "Posting to this list should be what you do only after doing a search for the answer."  Whether that's a web search, an archives search, or both will vary.

Calling it a "last option" is a phrasing I would not use.  But it certainly shouldn't be the first option when you (the generic you) have every reason to believe that a question has likely been asked and answered, often innumerable times, already.  I really, truly, honestly do not get why this is even in the slightest bit controversial.  Y'all know from your own experience here and elsewhere just how much unnecessary repetition occurs because not even the slightest research was performed before asking.  Had it been, the question would never have been posted in many cases.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Don H
 

So do I understand it correctly that posting to this list should be your last option to get help after doing a search for the answer?

On 1/4/2021 4:13 PM, Gene wrote:
There is a reason Brian is a voice in the wilderness and he stated it in his.  He said that as long as people don't let it be known that it is an imposition and annoyance to have people ask questions without searching, nothing will change.
The reason people don't make an issue of this on such lists is because they know and many may have experienced, many of the reasons more blind people don't know how to search.  They have received poor training, they may only have very limited interested in what they want to use their computers for, they may be learning but not to the point of knowing how to use the Internet well, there are all sorts of reasons.
I know Brian is willing to teach people but if all those who want to ask questions and don't know how to teach asked for such teaching, the demand would be enormous.
Gene
-----Original Message-----
We've all heard the possibly apocryphal Chinese adage, "Give a man fish and feed him for a day; teach him how to fish and feed him for life."
In many of these "pushback" exchanges, the pusher isn't teaching this person how to fish at all; they're just scolding them and sending them away for being piss-poor fishermen. For the most part, most blind people understand how painful it is to be dependent, especially if they've lost their sight later in life and were fiercely independent while sighted. They feel awful about having to ask simple questions or forgetting information they got before. I always help these folks, many of whom are elderly and will never become as computer-fluent as many of us are. If I know the answer to their question and can write it succinctly, it takes less time than admonishing them about not previously searching online for answers.
Many of our list members are relatively recent computer owners/users, taught an inferior step-by-step by rehab agencies who don't rehabilitate anyone from anything. Their entire world is now a scary place, where they cannot trust their remaining senses and where danger lurks on every corner. They read about online identity theft and viruses, about novice users turning their boxes into bricks, and become hyper-cautious about pressing even one key that hasn't been preapproved in someone's step-by-step instructions.
These lists are not the places to fault these people for losing their sight or for being incorrectly taught by the only agencies available to them. Just once, rather than embarking on one of these interminable threads admonishing people for allegedly not conducting online searches before asking questions, (something impossible to prove anyway), I'd like to see someone post a compassionate response:
"Don't feel bad, but your question is pretty basic and has been answered here and online. How long have you used computers? Can you do X, Y and Z? Have you ever tried to search online? Which browser and screen reader do you use? Can you navigate between search results and activate them? If you want to copy some text from what you read online, can you do that and paste it into a document? Do you have trouble understanding what's being described online (I.E., icons, sliders, dragable elements, animations, etc.)? If so, tell me which issues you're facing and I'll help you."
That's the kid of step-by-step that these folks need: how to navigate search results in a web browser, how to find actual responses on web forums amidst all the posting headers and
shameless ads, how to copy/paste text from the web into documents, how to explore top-level menu bars and ribbon controls, how to listen for keyboard mnemonics, how to configure screen readers to report keyboard mnemonics, etc.
None of us learned to fish by being mocked when we couldn't even hook a line or cast a pole. Yet, because it makes us feel self-righteous and important, especially in a world that so frequently tears us down with impunity, we visit the same suffering upon these hapless souls whose only "infractions" are being blind and knowing next to nothing about modern technologies.
In case some of you think I may preach more than I practice, ask around how many people I've emailed privately to help with their problems, how many times I've talked with them by phone and tandemed into their computers to do hours of configurations that would ultimately facilitate their lives. Ask how many people have gotten detailed explanations from me about Windows controls, settings, web browsers, audio applications, word processors, even registry and group policy settings.

Orlando





Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 04:04 PM, Devin Prater wrote:
Our performance tests hinges upon students' knowledge of keyboard commands and their ability to perform them. I also agree that
using a search engine should be stressed more.
-
Just putting it out there that this was my metric, too, when doing private tutoring.  It wasn't about achieving a grade, but achieving a minimum proficiency with doing what you need to do using a screen reader to do it.

Now, I hasten to add that the vast majority of my students are formerly sighted, and had computer experience from that period.  It's really about re-learning to do the things you did in non-point-and-click mode.

Several of the things that anyone must be able to do are;  read email, browse the web, web search.   Most also need to know the basics of using a word processor, too.  It was about getting someone to where these things were "easy compared to where they started out" but I never had enough time to make them absolute wizards with anything.  But I wanted them to be proficient enough to do ongoing exploration, with trial and error, on their own.  And I wanted them to realize that no one can ever cover all features of a screen reader or other complex software in any realistic sense.  There will be times where you realize you need to do something then have to seek out the how.  And seeking answers to non-trivial "hows" and rarely used features is exactly what groups such as this are about.  I'm constantly learning about things I had not realized existed because the need for same had never occurred during my travels.  I'll probably be in my grave before I could know each and every nook and cranny of NVDA.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: possible bug with Numpad Nav Mode add-on

Gene
 

The numpad is reserved by NVDA for other uses. the add-on evidently doesn't allow for the use you want. I don't know the technicalities of how the add-on works, but it isn't just a case of changing something. When it was initially introduced, it didn't allow for the use of numpad insert insert numpad down arrow to start read to end. Then, after it was requested that this ability be added, it was. In this case, evidently this would have to be added. But is there enough interest and benefit in doing so? Since you can use the down arrow key on the main keyboard, why does this matter to any extent?

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Cavanaugh
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 4:14 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] possible bug with Numpad Nav Mode add-on

What makes you say that? With every other screen reader I've used, it
doesn't matter which arrow key I use. Why should NVDA be any different
with the appropriate add-on?

On 1/4/21, Andre Fisher <andrefisher729@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi.

Seems like a Windows bug.





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