Date   

Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Betsy Grenevitch
 

I really do not have time to join a chat like that. I already have difficulty staying up with my email some days as it is so will just see if what I learn from the course I have begun today will give me what I need. Thanks for the offer, though.


On 1/5/2021 6:59 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 02:51 PM, Betsy Grenevitch wrote:
Brian, I would love to have that type of training. I would need the time to be able to write down specific notes and steps to follow so I could relate to them later as they will not be remembered
-
Then I would really, really encourage you to engage in the Chat Subgroup where you can engage in Q&A to your heart's content, and ask at your own pace.

My only suggestion is that you give specific requests, e.g., Can someone walk me through ordering an item on Amazon?, rather than something like, "Can someone teach me how to shop online?"   The second question is just too broad to be answered, as sites vary wildly as to the exact details of their interfaces, while single sites like Amazon tend to be as close to 100% consistent as they can be, regardless of what you're ordering.

Were this to be an accurate example, and the thing you want to order is not private in nature, even stating what that is can be really helpful for anyone who wants to assist.  You can give far more exact descriptions of what the person who's asking will actually encounter.

It has been my experience that once someone has confidence on how to do a defined thing in a specific venue, they can generalize to a related thing in that specific venue relatively easily.  And it's far easier to teach or guide when you as the teacher or guide know what the destination is.

Here are the addresses for the NVDA Chat Subgroup, which allows discussion of anything within the bounds of civil discourse, not just NVDA:

To join:  chat+subscribe@nvda.groups.io

To post:  chat@nvda.groups.io

To unsubscribe:  chat+unsubscribe@nvda.groups.io

To receive a message containing the group description, and a list of these commands:  chat+help@nvda.groups.io

To stop receiving messages via email (you may still read messages on the Web):  chat+nomail@nvda.groups.io

This can also be used to put a vacation stop on group messages, then use one of the addresses below to resume delivery in the format of your choice.

To receive each group messages individually:  chat+single@nvda.groups.io

This is the default delivery unless you send a message to one of the addresses that follows.

To receive group messages in an HTML formatted digest:  chat+fulldigest@nvda.groups.io

To receive group messages in a plain text digest:  chat+digest@nvda.groups.io

To receive a daily summary instead of individual messages:  chat+summary@nvda.groups.io

To receive only special messages:  chat+special@nvda.groups.io

To contact the group owner(s):  chat+owner@nvda.groups.io 
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 

--
Betsy Grenevitch 678-862-3876


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 02:51 PM, Betsy Grenevitch wrote:
Brian, I would love to have that type of training. I would need the time to be able to write down specific notes and steps to follow so I could relate to them later as they will not be remembered
-
Then I would really, really encourage you to engage in the Chat Subgroup where you can engage in Q&A to your heart's content, and ask at your own pace.

My only suggestion is that you give specific requests, e.g., Can someone walk me through ordering an item on Amazon?, rather than something like, "Can someone teach me how to shop online?"   The second question is just too broad to be answered, as sites vary wildly as to the exact details of their interfaces, while single sites like Amazon tend to be as close to 100% consistent as they can be, regardless of what you're ordering.

Were this to be an accurate example, and the thing you want to order is not private in nature, even stating what that is can be really helpful for anyone who wants to assist.  You can give far more exact descriptions of what the person who's asking will actually encounter.

It has been my experience that once someone has confidence on how to do a defined thing in a specific venue, they can generalize to a related thing in that specific venue relatively easily.  And it's far easier to teach or guide when you as the teacher or guide know what the destination is.

Here are the addresses for the NVDA Chat Subgroup, which allows discussion of anything within the bounds of civil discourse, not just NVDA:

To join:  chat+subscribe@nvda.groups.io

To post:  chat@nvda.groups.io

To unsubscribe:  chat+unsubscribe@nvda.groups.io

To receive a message containing the group description, and a list of these commands:  chat+help@nvda.groups.io

To stop receiving messages via email (you may still read messages on the Web):  chat+nomail@nvda.groups.io

This can also be used to put a vacation stop on group messages, then use one of the addresses below to resume delivery in the format of your choice.

To receive each group messages individually:  chat+single@nvda.groups.io

This is the default delivery unless you send a message to one of the addresses that follows.

To receive group messages in an HTML formatted digest:  chat+fulldigest@nvda.groups.io

To receive group messages in a plain text digest:  chat+digest@nvda.groups.io

To receive a daily summary instead of individual messages:  chat+summary@nvda.groups.io

To receive only special messages:  chat+special@nvda.groups.io

To contact the group owner(s):  chat+owner@nvda.groups.io 
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

Thats a hard question.

What is your opinion of access in general?

Mine is that the program in question is fully usable, with readable documentation at minimal in a structured accessible pdf or failing that html with the right headings.

Daisy would be nice but for all practical purposes a standard html document is what I'd go for any day or text, word, etc whatever.

The program must have keyboard shortcuts, settings that are easy to understand, menus or heck I guess ribbons that are easy to understand though I am a menu kind a guy.

If its a universal app, its web interface should be easy to navigate, with buttons which are labeled and alt text in the right places.

Self voicing is an option but having the ability to run something like tolque and run sapi and screen reader support would be nice.

Having actual reader access with an addon like nvda or jaws I guess would be nice, but if it uses standard controls then its going to work.

No customised styles, fonts or extras would be nice but again if its labeled then fine.

If it had the same interface no matter what system or configuration is also a pluss.

I don't need a dumbed down interface for the blind, unless there is a simple and advanced mode for various things and I can easily switch.

Most of this is simple stuff.

Look at ccleaner for example.

Button labeling and checkboxes were the simple thing, settings with labeled controls deciding what you chose, shortcut keys without conflicts.

An easy to understand system.

Would I have liked a dumbed down interface which had spaciffic things for the blind, probably not.

With accessibility you really want something to be accessible or rather usable to every user.

That means you shouldn't need nvda addons or jaws scripts to work with it.

You shouldn't need spaciffic libraries to work with it and screen reader/sapi support.

You shouldn't need dumbed down interfaces.

As long as its designed right then it should all just work.

Of course a lot of stuff uses coding engines and generators and those may or may not do everything or put things in you are not aware of.

This aint a perfect world though, so as long as its got standard controles and its all labeled and easy to configure and use thats about what I'd expect.

Customised shortcuts and sound notifications especially if there is a custom soundscheme and the ability to add extra sound schemes where appropriate is also good.

Another thing is that once you have an interface, try to keep it the same or at least keep every new interface if it needs extras the same standard as the old one.

CCleaner was originally fully accessible.

Then it got changed, then it got put back.

There are a few plusses.

Its not a given but right now anything universal will use a web component, so if the web bits work generally the rest will work enough to be used.

If its chromeum based there is a chance it will work to.

Of course you will want to adjust things but still.

I have not seen any programs actually holding your hand as such lately.

On 6/01/2021 10:57 am, Jaffar Sidek wrote:
Hi.  I think, really, that the question that should be asked is:

to what point does the need for accessibility borders onto the need to be spoilt and spoon fed, isn't it?  Cheers!

On 6/1/2021 2:37 am, tim wrote:
So you mean like how Microsoft is doing with VS code?
Guess the program-l list has to give up its Microsoft developers on the list to. After all Microsoft only let them join to see how the blind use there product.


On 1/4/2021 3:49 PM, Gene wrote:
It isn't our own language.  Some sighted people use the keyboard.  However, in this era, when everything is defined as a right, requiring manufacturers to produce instructions specifically for blind people is not something I would advocate.  Blind people shouldn't expect to have everything done for such a small group.  You might be able to argue that manuals should have versions written for blind people since in the sighted versions, they use pictures and diagrams and icons, but beyond a certain point, blind people need to take responsibility for what they can do and know.

I have no objection to tutorials being produced to teach blind people how to use programs using terminology and descriptions generally used by blind people, but at what point does this right end?

Should a designer of shareware or freeware be required to have instructions written for blind people if his program is used by a lot of blind people? Are you advocating that every help topic regarding Windows and Microsoft Office have a blindness version?

If a specialized piece of software has one-hundred blind users in America, should the developer be required to have instructions using the keyboard for such a small user base even if a lot more sighted people use it?

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 1:31 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

At 12:45 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
The reason I say that is you will, eventually, be given instructions
by a kindly but clueless sighted person who says, "Click on the
paperclip button," because that's what they see and they know,
implicitly, what it does.  It's really handy to have had someone
who's instructing you give you the sighted/announced pairs just
because you're likely to be confronted with only the former at some point.
But I do agree that, particularly if the audience is a blind one, I'd
likely reverse the ordering of the twins, giving the announced name
(or something awfully close to it, I never remember them all,
perfectly) first with the icon description afterward.
Windows is completely translated into dozens of
languages. When Chinese or Japanese speakers do
tech support for their compatriots, they don't
use English terms for Windows elements because
those elements have all been translated into
their languages. While Hindi or Hebrew speakers
understand that they must know English in order
to talk about Windows with non-Indians or
Israelis, they aren't burdened with the task of
learning English just to use Windows.
This is a good analogy because we as blind people
have allowed ourselves be bamboozled out of
rights that all non-English speakers have. Every
software manufacturer knows that if they don't
produce translated versions, they won't sell
product to non-English speakers. Yet, no software
manufacture--large or small--has been made to
feel similar pressure about producing (for lack
of a better word) blind versions or translations.
This is because non-English speakers petition
software manufacturers to produce translated
versions. Those who know English even offer to do
these translations for free. Whereas, we have
people among us insisting that our language is
provincial, inferior and the primary reason we
keep getting "left behind". Sighted Spanish and Portuguese speakers

don't get "left behind" for being unable to use
Windows in English. Microsoft has never
arrogantly maintained that they must learn
English in order to use Windows because that
position would constitute economic suicide. Only
us blind people have been ingrained with such
self-loathing that we would ridiculously insist,
when communicating with each other, to use
exclusively sighted terms such as points, clicks
and icons, when we have a perfectly functional
keyboard-oriented language of our own.
Orlando Enrique Fiol















Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 02:43 PM, Betsy Grenevitch wrote:
Please realize when you have expectations for your group members to be able to perform, that for some us, it may not always be possible because of things like this.
-
You know, I don't think I have ever said, ever, anything that would be counter to this.  There are exception cases to "the typical" all the time.

I can't win here.  If I try to cover all the bases it becomes hideously long, hard to follow, and the central points disappear.  When I do what I think appropriate, and that is to address "the general case," many seem to think it's an edict that must be applied to everyone, equally, without any consideration of other factors.  It isn't.

Far too often my own writing is harder to follow than it might be because I'm trying to cover far too many bases.  If anything, I am trying to make an effort to avoid a litany of exceptions and caveats, which I definitely recognize, and focus on the general case.  Any one of us can play the, "But what if?," game such that it never ends.

And I hasten to say here, Betsy, that all of the above is in no way aimed at you, personally, but is triggered by your observation.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Jaffar Sidek <jaffar.sidek10@...>
 

Hi.  I think, really, that the question that should be asked is:

to what point does the need for accessibility borders onto the need to be spoilt and spoon fed, isn't it?  Cheers!

On 6/1/2021 2:37 am, tim wrote:
So you mean like how Microsoft is doing with VS code?
Guess the program-l list has to give up its Microsoft developers on the list to. After all Microsoft only let them join to see how the blind use there product.


On 1/4/2021 3:49 PM, Gene wrote:
It isn't our own language.  Some sighted people use the keyboard.  However, in this era, when everything is defined as a right, requiring manufacturers to produce instructions specifically for blind people is not something I would advocate.  Blind people shouldn't expect to have everything done for such a small group.  You might be able to argue that manuals should have versions written for blind people since in the sighted versions, they use pictures and diagrams and icons, but beyond a certain point, blind people need to take responsibility for what they can do and know.

I have no objection to tutorials being produced to teach blind people how to use programs using terminology and descriptions generally used by blind people, but at what point does this right end?

Should a designer of shareware or freeware be required to have instructions written for blind people if his program is used by a lot of blind people? Are you advocating that every help topic regarding Windows and Microsoft Office have a blindness version?

If a specialized piece of software has one-hundred blind users in America, should the developer be required to have instructions using the keyboard for such a small user base even if a lot more sighted people use it?

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 1:31 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

At 12:45 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
The reason I say that is you will, eventually, be given instructions
by a kindly but clueless sighted person who says, "Click on the
paperclip button," because that's what they see and they know,
implicitly, what it does.  It's really handy to have had someone
who's instructing you give you the sighted/announced pairs just
because you're likely to be confronted with only the former at some point.
But I do agree that, particularly if the audience is a blind one, I'd
likely reverse the ordering of the twins, giving the announced name
(or something awfully close to it, I never remember them all,
perfectly) first with the icon description afterward.
Windows is completely translated into dozens of
languages. When Chinese or Japanese speakers do
tech support for their compatriots, they don't
use English terms for Windows elements because
those elements have all been translated into
their languages. While Hindi or Hebrew speakers
understand that they must know English in order
to talk about Windows with non-Indians or
Israelis, they aren't burdened with the task of
learning English just to use Windows.
This is a good analogy because we as blind people
have allowed ourselves be bamboozled out of
rights that all non-English speakers have. Every
software manufacturer knows that if they don't
produce translated versions, they won't sell
product to non-English speakers. Yet, no software
manufacture--large or small--has been made to
feel similar pressure about producing (for lack
of a better word) blind versions or translations.
This is because non-English speakers petition
software manufacturers to produce translated
versions. Those who know English even offer to do
these translations for free. Whereas, we have
people among us insisting that our language is
provincial, inferior and the primary reason we
keep getting "left behind". Sighted Spanish and Portuguese speakers

don't get "left behind" for being unable to use
Windows in English. Microsoft has never
arrogantly maintained that they must learn
English in order to use Windows because that
position would constitute economic suicide. Only
us blind people have been ingrained with such
self-loathing that we would ridiculously insist,
when communicating with each other, to use
exclusively sighted terms such as points, clicks
and icons, when we have a perfectly functional
keyboard-oriented language of our own.
Orlando Enrique Fiol












Re: problems using NVDA with my new laptop

Gene
 

That may have been true in the past but it isn't now. numpad commands work in either setting.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Grossoehme
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2021 12:04 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problems using NVDA with my new laptop



Good Day: I have seen this problem before. It's possible that the NVDA settings in keyboard settings is set to laptop. If so, none of the numpad keys for NVDA will work. She will need to go into NVDA and change that to desktop. In order to answer this, she would need to check and see if any of the numpad key commands work in NVDA..

Dave




On 12/29/2020 7:23 PM, Betsy Grenevitch wrote:


Gene, I have used numpad very little until getting this laptop. I assume you mean just pushing the numpad 7 by itself when nomlock is off, right? If that is the case it does not do anything if it can be used in an email as that is where I tried it. When I push any of those three numbers it just says clipboard. If you would like for me to write you privately, please let me know.







On 12/29/2020 7:52 PM, Gene wrote:


it might help clarify things if we knew the answer to the following question:

When you use numpad commands by themselves, do they work correctly? In other words, does numpad 8 read the current line of the object you are on? Does numpad 7 move to the previous line and numpad 9 move to the next line?





I also did a bit of experimentation and if a current or near current version of NVDA is being used, it doesn't matter, for what we are discussing, if laptop or desktop mode is being used. it may for other commands, but the numpad review commands such as shift 7, 8, and 9, work in both modes. Before continuing with any experimentation, do the following to make completely sure you are working in the correct screen-review mode:

Issue the command numpad insert numpad 1 until you hear no previous review mode. If you changed review modes at some point, you may well have unexpected results.





Gene


On 12/29/2020 6:16 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 06:40 PM, Nevzat Adil wrote:
Since you are using a laptop NVDA should be on laptop keyboard layout.-
I'm sorry, but that's incorrect and, in actuality, very seldom the case or necessary. If you have a laptop that has a number pad as part of its built in keyboard NVDA installs using desktop keyboard layout because it can since all the keys are there.

I only have folks use laptop layout if they are already familiar with it and prefer it, or if they have a laptop that does not have a number pad as part of its built in keyboard. That is the minority of laptops produced today.
--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner




--
Betsy Grenevitch 678-862-3876


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Betsy Grenevitch
 

Brian, I would love to have that type of training. I would need the time to be able to write down specific notes and steps to follow so I could relate to them later as they will not be remembered (refer to my most recent post before this one).


Please let me know what we need to arrange to make this training possible.


I would also love to have training using NVDA of how to feel comfortable navigating a site such as NV Access and purchasing something. I am one of those that was mentioned the other day of doing something wrong and not being able to get out of it. I have always been a little fearful of that but with this memory situation that fear has only become worse. This is why I try to write down what I will hear when certain steps are taken or situations arise.

I desire to become more independent in situations like this in case my daughter is not here to help as she does now.


Brian, I think I mentioned the other day that I have appreciated your help in the past.



On 1/4/2021 6:23 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 05:57 PM, Betsy Grenevitch wrote:
I am so technologically challenged that most manuals are not written in a vocabulary or step order that I am able to follow.
-
And you're far from alone in that.  Believe me, even for computer geeks there is an awful lot of documentation that leaves a very great deal to be desired.

Betsy, you know I've lent you a hand directly on occasions, and I would be happy to keep doing so in regard to polishing your web and/or archive search skills such that you know the process for zeroing in on what you're looking for in a very great many cases.  That would be a great Chat Subgroup topic for any and all who want to join in and improve such skills.

It's impossible to get things such that you will likely get the one and only answer that's the one you prefer, but at least you can get something that will allow you to plow through the minimum number of search results to get maximum information.  It's an art form where, when teaching it, I try to teach people to "aim for the middle by being as specific as one reasonably can," then either becoming less specific if you get nothing or next to nothing, or supply a few more specific terms in the search if you're inundated by many thousands of results.  You, and anyone, can develop the skill that allows you to turn a fire hose down to a syringe and any volume in between.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 

--
Betsy Grenevitch 678-862-3876


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Betsy Grenevitch
 

Chris, thank you for mentioning this course. I may have heard about it in the past but had forgotten about it. I just purchased it and plan on going through it.


Another thing that has not been discussed here is those with memory problems. The reason I bring this up is that I am one of those in that category. They know it is not Alzheimer's but otherwise it is not diagnosed because I have been told the eyes are needed for most of the tests and I do not have those. The point I am getting to is that if I have not done something on the computer, sometimes for even just a few days, I totally forget how to do it. I am also finding out that I panic more if I cannot find something I am searching for in a short matter of time. I also am finding it more difficult to learn auditorily. I am finding that I need to write a lot of computer tasks down step by step listing what I will hear with each step that I take. I realize that there will be a day when I will no longer be able to use a computer to do anything.

If I am not careful, I am also finding it difficult to find where I put notes for different things on my notetaker. I am really having to be more specific with my file names in order to find steps for different situations.


Please realize when you have expectations for your group members to be able to perform, that for some us, it may not always be possible because of things like this.

On 1/4/2021 6:06 PM, Chris Smart wrote:
Betsy, have you tried the NVDA basic training?


I'm going through it now, after using another screen reader for many years, and I find it to be quite well written and organized, with lots of little exercises to actually work through.





--
Betsy Grenevitch 678-862-3876


Re: Vocalizer and Eloquence from CodeFactory and punctuation level

Daniel Gartmann
 

 

Sorry. I forgot to test something here. Please disregard my previous message. It seems to work anyway.

 

Daniel

 

 

Fra: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> På vegne af Daniel Gartmann
Sendt: 5. januar 2021 19:02
Til: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Emne: [nvda] Vocalizer and Eloquence from CodeFactory and punctuation level

 

 

Hello,

 

I am using the Vocalizer add-on from codeFactory.

 

When I try to make two different configuration profiles each with a different level of symbols and punctuation e.g most and some, I cannot return to these settings when switching between these profiles. They are set to “all”.

 

Before digging any further into this, I wanted to ask if anybody  else is having this issue and if there is any information from CodeFactory about this or even a work-around?

 

Thanks and best regards

 

Daniel

 

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

tim
 

So you mean like how Microsoft is doing with VS code?
Guess the program-l list has to give up its Microsoft developers on the list to. After all Microsoft only let them join to see how the blind use there product.

On 1/4/2021 3:49 PM, Gene wrote:
It isn't our own language.  Some sighted people use the keyboard. However, in this era, when everything is defined as a right, requiring manufacturers to produce instructions specifically for blind people is not something I would advocate.  Blind people shouldn't expect to have everything done for such a small group.  You might be able to argue that manuals should have versions written for blind people since in the sighted versions, they use pictures and diagrams and icons, but beyond a certain point, blind people need to take responsibility for what they can do and know.
I have no objection to tutorials being produced to teach blind people how to use programs using terminology and descriptions generally used by blind people, but at what point does this right end?
Should a designer of shareware or freeware be required to have instructions written for blind people if his program is used by a lot of blind people? Are you advocating that every help topic regarding Windows and Microsoft Office have a blindness version?
If a specialized piece of software has one-hundred blind users in America, should the developer be required to have instructions using the keyboard for such a small user base even if a lot more sighted people use it?
Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 1:31 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read
At 12:45 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
The reason I say that is you will, eventually, be given instructions
by a kindly but clueless sighted person who says, "Click on the
paperclip button," because that's what they see and they know,
implicitly, what it does.  It's really handy to have had someone
who's instructing you give you the sighted/announced pairs just
because you're likely to be confronted with only the former at some point.
But I do agree that, particularly if the audience is a blind one, I'd
likely reverse the ordering of the twins, giving the announced name
(or something awfully close to it, I never remember them all,
perfectly) first with the icon description afterward.
Windows is completely translated into dozens of
languages. When Chinese or Japanese speakers do
tech support for their compatriots, they don't
use English terms for Windows elements because
those elements have all been translated into
their languages. While Hindi or Hebrew speakers
understand that they must know English in order
to talk about Windows with non-Indians or
Israelis, they aren't burdened with the task of
learning English just to use Windows.
This is a good analogy because we as blind people
have allowed ourselves be bamboozled out of
rights that all non-English speakers have. Every
software manufacturer knows that if they don't
produce translated versions, they won't sell
product to non-English speakers. Yet, no software
manufacture--large or small--has been made to
feel similar pressure about producing (for lack
of a better word) blind versions or translations.
This is because non-English speakers petition
software manufacturers to produce translated
versions. Those who know English even offer to do
these translations for free. Whereas, we have
people among us insisting that our language is
provincial, inferior and the primary reason we
keep getting "left behind". Sighted Spanish and Portuguese speakers
don't get "left behind" for being unable to use
Windows in English. Microsoft has never
arrogantly maintained that they must learn
English in order to use Windows because that
position would constitute economic suicide. Only
us blind people have been ingrained with such
self-loathing that we would ridiculously insist,
when communicating with each other, to use
exclusively sighted terms such as points, clicks
and icons, when we have a perfectly functional
keyboard-oriented language of our own.
Orlando Enrique Fiol


Re: problems using NVDA with my new laptop

Dave Grossoehme
 

Good Day:  I have seen this problem before.  It's possible that the NVDA settings in keyboard settings is set to laptop.  If so, none of the numpad keys for NVDA will work.  She will need to go into NVDA and change that to desktop.  In order to answer this, she would need to check and see if any of the numpad key commands work in NVDA..

Dave


On 12/29/2020 7:23 PM, Betsy Grenevitch wrote:

Gene, I have used numpad very little until getting this laptop. I assume you mean just pushing the numpad 7 by itself when nomlock is off, right? If that is the case it does not do anything if it can be used in an email as that is where I tried it. When I push any of those three numbers it just says clipboard. If you would like for me to write you privately, please let me know.



On 12/29/2020 7:52 PM, Gene wrote:

it might help clarify things if we knew the answer to the following question:

When you use numpad commands by themselves, do they work correctly?  In other words, does numpad 8 read the current line of the object you are on?  Does numpad 7 move to the previous line and numpad 9 move to the next line? 


I also did a bit of experimentation and if a current or near current version of NVDA is being used, it doesn't matter, for what we are discussing, if laptop or desktop mode is being used.  it may for other commands, but the numpad review commands such as shift 7, 8, and 9, work in both modes.  Before continuing with any experimentation, do the following to make completely sure you are working in the correct screen-review mode:

Issue the command numpad insert numpad 1 until you hear no previous review mode.  If you changed review modes at some point, you may well have unexpected results.


Gene

On 12/29/2020 6:16 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 06:40 PM, Nevzat Adil wrote:
Since you are using a laptop NVDA should be on laptop keyboard layout.
-
I'm sorry, but that's incorrect and, in actuality, very seldom the case or necessary.  If you have a laptop that has a number pad as part of its built in keyboard NVDA installs using desktop keyboard layout because it can since all the keys are there.

I only have folks use laptop layout if they are already familiar with it and prefer it, or if they have a laptop that does not have a number pad as part of its built in keyboard.  That is the minority of laptops produced today.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

        ~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner 

 

--
Betsy Grenevitch 678-862-3876


Vocalizer and Eloquence from CodeFactory and punctuation level

Daniel Gartmann
 

 

Hello,

 

I am using the Vocalizer add-on from codeFactory.

 

When I try to make two different configuration profiles each with a different level of symbols and punctuation e.g most and some, I cannot return to these settings when switching between these profiles. They are set to “all”.

 

Before digging any further into this, I wanted to ask if anybody  else is having this issue and if there is any information from CodeFactory about this or even a work-around?

 

Thanks and best regards

 

Daniel

 

 


locked Re: activating actions center notifications

 

Orlando,

            As you well know, this isn't an NVDA or JAWS or any screen-reader specific issue, so this is really off topic for the NVDA group.  I only say this because you have elected to topic split, but it's an off-topic topic for this venue.

            You would be well advised to dig into this more deeply with other screen reader users on the Windows 10 for Screen Reader User's Group:

I'll leave this topic open in case you wish to make a final quick response, but whether you elect to do so or not, I'll eventually lock it as it's not on-topic here and the only "special dispensation" for any topic since I've been here has been for that other topic now approaching 200 messages.  I've got to enforce the rules, and the rare exceptions when they're made, consistently.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 12:37 AM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
If you listened to lurkers more and pontificated less
-
If you can tell me how to listen to lurkers, please do.  Since lurkers, by definition, lurk and don't speak, that's a conundrum of epic proportions.

I'll gladly cop to pontificating, and even perhaps more than necessary in many instances, but this whole topic has been awash in pontification from many sources, one of which is yourself.

By the way, to be abundantly clear with regard to excuses, I am not saying that you're making them for yourself.  But when you come out with something like your temporal difference in processing speed argument, in direct response to my observation, "Why not? I do, your sighted friend does. Even with the additional challenge, you (the generic blind you) are not granted special dispensation from plowing through results, many of which may be of limited or no use,"  I want you to explain to me how that doesn't read as excusing people from their obligation to do what needs to be done.  You are saying two diametrically opposite things when you object as you did to that observation, yet in the next breath agree wholeheartedly about the obligation to do so with, "Refusing to do something because it's too hard is predicated on the false premise that humans are only designed to do what comes easily."

And the idea that I'm waving away the complexities, rather than focusing on the core argument, is laughable.  You can give me a thousand examples of things that I'll agree with, but that I know to be uncommon.  I'm not looking at the outlier situations, but that big ol' hump in the middle of the bell curve.

Your desire to over-psychologize is duly noted, and largely dismissed.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


locked Re: activating actions center notifications

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 11:23 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
First, I will tell you that your experience is not limited to you, or
those using the keyboard. The action center has always been flaky,
at least for me.
What then do Windows engineers expect users to do with their notifications? I subscribe to a few newsfeeds. Upon reading one of their notifications, I'm not about to hunt down the exact URL of the story or post for which I've received a notification. that would be like having to push a car or hand-crank a refrigerator.

Second, this is one of those situations where it's easier in many
instances to use my literal ability to see what is, or is not,
happening to solve an issue. If, at some point, you have a long list
of notifications in the action center, and we could arrange a Quick
Assist session with a simultaneous phone call, I can see and listen to
see if I can determine what a root cause might be.
Any time, kind sir. My notifications list is always well-populated, mainly because I can't activate most notifications and keep a few in which I still stubbornly retain hope.

It can sometimes be user error, but sometimes it's absolutely
not. But having actual
examples, currently active, and observing what occurs is the best way
for me to get a handle on why something may be falling through the
cracks.? There are a number of people here who have "been there, done
that" with me, because it was impossible for me to figure out what was
actually happening (or not happening) sans certain visual cues that
mean a great deal when I see 'em.
--
I dig that. I'm down to talk any time, about this or any of our various sundry outstanding topics. This notification issue frustrates me because there's false advertising going on here. If yall sightlings can click on list items, we should be able to use our mouse simulation keys to do the same. That's their entire purpose. Pressing the mouse button or an assigned hotkey should achieve the same results every time. If they don't,it either means that mouse clicks don't really always activate notifications, or that mouse keys don't accurate replace physical mouse clicks.
I recently read that I could issue a mouse click anywhere on a given notification in order to expand and activate it. So, I've tried moving the mouse pointer via keyboard so incrementally that I thought my fingers would fall off between voiced elements, all to no avail, because clicking any and every which way turned out not to be right.


Orlando


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 11:13 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
Yes, it's slower and more arduous for blind individuals to deal with
many text based things. That is not, nor should ever be, considered
an excuse not to do so. And what you're offering is, indeed, an excuse.
Hardly, given my 23 years of largely self-taught computer education. Were I interested in excuses, I would have used them to get myself out of doing anything and everything uncomfortable or challenging. My trajectory speaks for itself in terms of excuse dismissal. Understanding people's reluctance to engage in certain tasks does not in any way exonerate them from having to do those tasks; it simply helps us understand where they are in order to give them the right kinds of motivations and tools to overcome their fears, trepidations, hesitations, past experiences, etc.

No one is simply allowed to say, "It's too hard, so someone else
should be expected to do the heavy lifting for me." That happens,
far too often, and I make no apology for saying so.
I'm the first to agree with you on that and many other scores. Refusing to do something because it's too hard is predicated on the false premise that humans are only designed to do what comes easily. Anyone who ponders how far we as a species have developed from our savage beginnings knows that enough of us have not shed away from what is difficult. However, the ability to overcome difficulties cannot be willed away by decreed fiat; a panoply of circumstances are involved. I like to think of them in terms of the basic book report questions we learned as children: who, what, when and how.
Who resistance usually involves low self-esteem stemming from family disfunction, trauma and long-term abuse. People with "who problems" fundamentally think they're unworthy or incapable of anything joyful or fulfilling because they've always been told they're no good and worthy of no joy. Therefore, helping someone with such problems involves refuting their ingrained beliefs and replacing them with other cognitive premises, E.G., creating inferior people is not in our Creator's best interests, nor does it glorify His work.
People with 'what" problems are often plagued by indecision between multiple options and usually talk themselves out of each one. They constantly fear making wrong decisions or taking wrong courses, worrying that their lives will be irrevocably set adrift. This again stems from disfunctional familial and social messages regarding decision-making. If someone is constantly put down for starting and not finishing things, or deciding to take up things that ultimately don't work out, their critical thinking ability is constantly called into question. These are people who fear every choice, from what to make for dinner to which option to choose in a configuration dialogue.
How people are usually unclear about how to accomplish things because no one has sat down with them and broken their desired goals down to tiny steps that they can accomplish. Such people know they should be doing X Y Z, but don't know how to start, or know only three out of ten steps. They fear feeling lost, being pressured to choose an option or demonstrate a skill when they can't yet do so. Therefore, their coping strategy is to as little as possible and expect as little as possible of themselves. This avoids situations in which they might feel lost, confused or uncertain of which path to choose.
When people never know whether now is the right time for anything. If they regret what they haven't done, now and even later are already too late. If they're contemplating doing something new, now is never the right time. They lack money, support, skills, devices, tools, etc. Helping these people involves proving to them that they can actually begin with what they have right now.
Finally, why people have trouble thinking for themselves because they've never been allowed to do so. Every facet of their lives has been prescripted and prescribed by others. They fundamentally feel they lack the authority over their own lives to make any decisions, even if they know their reasons are sound. Rather than come from inside them, every why must be externally furnished, and they wait around unable to act until others impose a why on them.
Given these archetypes, it's easy to see why so many folks on these lists post the same basic questions when they could easily find their own answers online. They fundamentally mistrust all their abilities to the point that any answers they generate are automatically incorrect. asking questions and interacting with list members is their reassurance that the prescribed steps are legitimate.
Others feel fundamentally unqualified to anything on devices other than what their instructors have taught them. If they know how to check email and surf the web, social media are out of the question. If they know how to write text documents, tables and charts intimidate them.
People constantly berated for their mistakes fear messing up and not knowing what to do next. They worry that their devices will freeze, that they'll lose speech, that online searches will infect their systems with malware and viruses, etc. Anything outside of their memorized procedures sends them into a panic. If they tab around and hear nothing, it's time to call 911. If they press a certain navigational key and nothing happens, they immediately assume they've done something wrong. They panic when they lose their places on web pages, when they can't move backwards or forwards between pages, when they get unlabeled graphics rather than useful text.
These people need to be taken to the precipices they fear most and taught that they won't die as a result. Unresponsive applications can be closed and restarted. Screen readers can be reloaded. Audio can be reinitialized. At worst, devices can be rebooted.
This is only a surface snapshot of what's involved in the seemingly simple act of posting basic questions to these lists.

Many of the questions asked here and on several other blind-centric
lists I frequent that repeat again and again and again are not, even
vaguely, in the class where anything beyond minutes of review would be
required to get an answer via a search.? I am sick to death of even
the implication that I make my frustrations plain because people are
asking questions that are of a complex nature or on features that are
seldom used or require tricky interactions.
On a group like this one, I have seen things asked that NVDA help
itself, in-program help, can answer in mere seconds if someone uses
it.? And if someone states they are a neophyte, I answer the actual
question and instruct on how to find it independently along with
related information later. These are not the people or instances
that make me want to reach out and throttle anyone. It's people who
have been around, and often posting moderately frequently, asking
simple questions that I absolutely know they have seen asked and
answered innumerable times, because I'm familiar with their names for
the duration of the time I've been participating or close to it.?
That's not OK, not with me, and never will be.
You clearly don't understand psychological paralysis. The recently sightless or overprotected blind assume that every single move forbodes danger. Every act without sighted supervision feels to them as though they're risking their very lives. One totally blind friend recently flew into a panic because she couldn't reinsert her microwave's spinning plate after washing it. I calmly told her to align it with the corresponding platen surface in the microwave, place the plate on it, push down and spin until it locked in place.
I could never tell such a person what to do if she lost audio on one of her devices, since, without audio feedback, she would be deathly afraid of making a huge mistake and ruining her device.
We take for granted a healthy attitude toward risk. We know how to get out of most situations and how not to get into the ones without escape routes. More important, we know how to forgive ourselves with good humor or sarcasm when disasters strike. I'm ashamed to admit how many times my registry experiments rendered my computers entirely unbootable, caused peripheral devices not to be recognized, caused basic programs not to load or unload correctly. Even then, I never thought my world had ended. Especially after proving to myself that I could do a clean Windows installation from absolute scratch, using nothing but Narrator, my doom and gloom drastically reduced. My option 0 is a bootable USB drive that loads Narrator and presents me with an installation screen within seconds. I usually use that flash drive for the standard salvage repairs: startup, system restore, command line, reset, etc. If none succeed, I reinstall.
I guarantee you, based on decades of conversations with hundreds of blind computer users, that most folks would throw up their hands at such times and wait for a sympathetic sightling to take their glorified brick to a charlatan ripoff artist (I mean, computer technician) who will hastily reinstall and reconfigure their device with absolutely no interest in, or regard for, their accessibility needs.
All that can be avoided.

My track record, in all respects, is abundantly clear and stands on
its own. I am happy to be taken to task for things I've actually
said, or done, or both.? I'm even OK with being taken to task when
what I have written could be construed in ways other than I'd
intended, as that's entirely my fault.
We should all aspire to such equanimity, since an intrinsic part of the communication process involves how the receiver interprets our messages. If too many receivers extract malevolence where none was intended, our delivery system is obviously faulty. On the other hand, if our receivers expose our malevolence, we need to work on our kindness modules.

One of the biggest of those, and I hasten to add that I am not
accusing you, specifically, on this one, is that I am somehow
short-tempered and unsupportive of those new to NVDA when it's clear
that this is the situation. I have not been. But I am also not
willing to presume that every new member here is a neophyte unless
they make that clear in some way. The fact is that most new members
are not, and never have been. Most joining lists like this have
years of screen reader and general computer use experience, and I will
always? presume that anyone coming in here is way more likely to know
the basics of a screen reader (not necessarily NVDA), how to use
email, how to browse the web, and how to perform a web search.? This
being 2021, and my having senior citizen clients who can handle the
basics of all of those things (both with and without vision), will
keep me convinced that this is not an unreasonable presumption.
People joining tech groups are very, very seldom "blank slates."? And
many egregious offenders with "simple questions" are those I know are
absolutely not inexperienced, and they should know better.


If you listened to lurkers more and pontificated less, you would be shocked by how little computer/screen-reader knowledge many members actually possess. I've seen posters insist that they can't invoke the JAWS option menus, exit their web browsers, open and close documents, even shut down their systems, all very basic computer skills. Some people out here don't know what every key on their keyboards does.
So, while a good bunch of us have been riding the range for decades, many have never even sat atop a stationary mechanical bull.
Orlando


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 07:55 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
Seriously, whenever I try to activate notifications in the actions center, they disappear rather than open the webpages I know they should. Let's say I get a Youtube notification from a subscribed channel. I expect that pressing enter, space or a simulated left mouse click on the notification will cause my default web browser (Chrome) to open with the relevant video loaded. Instead, nothing happens. That's right. whether I press space, enter or simulate a left-click, nothing happens. All the actions center notifications have become little more to me than teasers for videos and news headlines I will never explore in depth as my sighted counterparts do by simply clicking those notifications.
-
First, I will tell you that your experience is not limited to you, or those using the keyboard.  The action center has always been flaky, at least for me.

Second, this is one of those situations where it's easier in many instances to use my literal ability to see what is, or is not, happening to solve an issue.  If, at some point, you have a long list of notifications in the action center, and we could arrange a Quick Assist session with a simultaneous phone call, I can see and listen to see if I can determine what a root cause might be.  It can sometimes be user error, but sometimes it's absolutely not.  But having actual examples, currently active, and observing what occurs is the best way for me to get a handle on why something may be falling through the cracks.  There are a number of people here who have "been there, done that" with me, because it was impossible for me to figure out what was actually happening (or not happening) sans certain visual cues that mean a great deal when I see 'em.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 07:55 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
The difference involves the temporal rate at which blind versus sighted users take in written verbal information. It i an irrefutable fact that visually scanning text with the naked eye is quicker than reading with speech at any rate. Just ask any reading comprehension or memory/retention specialist.
-
An area where, both from my academic background, and my clinical experience, I am more than familiar.

It's also irrelevant for the kinds of things I'm generally talking about, and even beyond.

Yes, it's slower and more arduous for blind individuals to deal with many text based things.  That is not, nor should ever be, considered an excuse not to do so.  And what you're offering is, indeed, an excuse.

No one is simply allowed to say, "It's too hard, so someone else should be expected to do the heavy lifting for me."  That happens, far too often, and I make no apology for saying so.

Many of the questions asked here and on several other blind-centric lists I frequent that repeat again and again and again are not, even vaguely, in the class where anything beyond minutes of review would be required to get an answer via a search.  I am sick to death of even the implication that I make my frustrations plain because people are asking questions that are of a complex nature or on features that are seldom used or require tricky interactions.

On a group like this one, I have seen things asked that NVDA help itself, in-program help, can answer in mere seconds if someone uses it.  And if someone states they are a neophyte, I answer the actual question and instruct on how to find it independently along with related information later.  These are not the people or instances that make me want to reach out and throttle anyone.  It's people who have been around, and often posting moderately frequently, asking simple questions that I absolutely know they have seen asked and answered innumerable times, because I'm familiar with their names for the duration of the time I've been participating or close to it.  That's not OK, not with me, and never will be.

My track record, in all respects, is abundantly clear and stands on its own.  I am happy to be taken to task for things I've actually said, or done, or both.  I'm even OK with being taken to task when what I have written could be construed in ways other than I'd intended, as that's entirely my fault.  But what I'm not OK with, and it's occurred on a number of occasions on this very topic, is having hypotheticals that have no connection to what I have said or have done, treated as though they're germane.

One of the biggest of those, and I hasten to add that I am not accusing you, specifically, on this one, is that I am somehow short-tempered and unsupportive of those new to NVDA when it's clear that this is the situation.  I have not been.  But I am also not willing to presume that every new member here is a neophyte unless they make that clear in some way.  The fact is that most new members are not, and never have been.  Most joining lists like this have years of screen reader and general computer use experience, and I will always  presume that anyone coming in here is way more likely to know the basics of a screen reader (not necessarily NVDA), how to use email, how to browse the web, and how to perform a web search.  This being 2021, and my having senior citizen clients who can handle the basics of all of those things (both with and without vision), will keep me convinced that this is not an unreasonable presumption.  People joining tech groups are very, very seldom "blank slates."  And many egregious offenders with "simple questions" are those I know are absolutely not inexperienced, and they should know better.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


dictation bridge with latest NVDA2020.1 and later

Josh Kennedy
 

HI,

Are there any plans to update dictation bridge so it works with NVDA2020.1 and later?

 

Josh

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

Hi,

Having studied writing a bit, these days I tend to view programming as a form of writing, or rather, writing a screenplay (Python syntax greatly resembles English a lot, and perhaps that could be one of the reasons for its popularity).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 5:27 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

 

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 08:19 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

programming isn't for everyone

-
You, Mr. Lee, are a master of understatement on many occasions.

I am absolutely in awe of anyone who is blind and insane enough to choose to be a programmer!  I would have lost my mind in debugging some of the simplest things I'd written, strictly based on fixing syntax errors, had I not been able to see, literally, what was being flagged.

Not to mention, and there really is no way to explain this accurately or succinctly, but the way one must think in order to be a top notch programmer is not something that most people can do.  Even to be a fair to middling programmer, really.  And that's not an insult to anyone, it's simply my own opinion and insight after having spent many years in that end of the business.  The very best programmers seem (note, seem) "to be born with it" rather than having acquired the skill through education alone.  The pursuit is every bit as much art as science, sometimes more.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 

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