Is that capability even available in python.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Supanut Leepaisomboon" <supanut2000@...>
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 16:18:00 -0800
Subject: Re: [nvda] Will NVDA eventually use AI for better GUI recognition?

That is actually a great idea, I can imagine this capability being used to make PC games more accessible with NVDA.

That is actually a great idea, I can imagine this capability being used to make PC games more accessible with NVDA.

So one thing I enjoy about VoiceOver on my iPhone is it has gotten really good at using UI to make otherwise inaccessible UI elements available to interact with. More than just simple OCR, it can ascertain the layout and make educated guesses about controls like buttons and tabs, greatly expanding the usability of apps that otherwise would be partially or totally inaccessible.

Is there any chance NVDA will eventually reach that level of sophistication? I know there are third party add-ons that attempt to bridge that gap for specific types of apps, for example the great Sibiac add-on which helps make certain music production apps and plugins accessible with NVDA, but it would be great to see these capabilities broadened and rolled into the core functionality of the product.

 

Thanks,

Luke

 

I don't know if this message is getting too detailed and most of it
should be on the chat list but it may help some or many people.

Regarding well crafted searches, I'm not sure how much of this applied
years ago such as in about 2000, but Google is a consumer product and
is now smart enough to give good results even if ;people don't know
what used to be taught for defining a search in detail. I never use
boolean operators and I almost never use quotation marks. I just type
in a few words what I want to know but people can use full sentences
if they wish. I might search for something like Happiness IS a Warm
Gun lyrics or Happiness Is a Warm Gun Youtube. I might search for
something like list of keyboard commands for Word or Microsoft Word.
My point is that defining a search most of the time is a matter of
typing what you want to know, being aware that if you don't define
something enough, you might have to try again with another word or two
added or changed to get good results. For example, if I type a name
of a song and it’s a common phrase I might see used elsewhere, I might
have to do another search such as name of song then type the name of
the group.

It might be easier to get people who have the Internet skills to
search to do so if it were made clear that searching usually doesn't
involve the more complex methods they may have heard discussed.

As far as the discussion of people doing searches, one approach might
be to distinguish between the two kinds of people who don't search.
there are people who ask lots of
questions over time who have good computer skills and whom I would
have no objection to being expected to do searches. They either
already can or could do good searches generally with a little
instruction.

Then there are those who ask questions off and on and who don't have
good computer skills. Those people I would probably let ask questions
and not make an issue of searching.



Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Gene
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 6:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

I'm not sure why you didn't find the message. I tried searching for
its beginning one or two ways but then I thought of moving by
separator and I found the start of it immediately below the separator.
. I tried other ways and I got close to the message as well or right
to the message text when I repeated the skip blocs of links command three times.

I wonder if there is something about your browser configuration that
is perhaps interfering with you seeing it?

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 6:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

At 06:31 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:

First, direct link to the opening message:
https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/message/80182

Activating that link takes me to a page telling me everything I do and
don't want to know about the original message except the message
itself, with no keyboard-friendly way of navigating to subsequent
messages in the thread. Most email clients have key commands for
previous and next message; if they don't, and have no way to configure
them, you can guess where I chuck them.


Orlando

Yes Mam, I did that, but I can not hear anything.
I wonder, if there is an add on that I need to get.



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ann Byrne
Sent: Monday, January 11, 2021 4:18 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using NVDA With Remote!

If you are set up to control the other computer, remember to press
f11 so you can see/hear it.
At 04:04 PM 1/11/2021, you wrote:

Hello,
When I connect to another's person usin nvda remote, it does not read
on my end, what she hears, on her end?
What might be the problem, why I can not hear, while to he computer?
Thanks for your help!
Regards,
Thomas.

On Jan 11, 2021, at 2:36 PM, Milton Charlton <milton.charlton@...> wrote:

Use NVDA to help train Speech Recognition?

I am trying to help someone start using a Windows computer with speech input and audio output.  They has lost ability to read owing to macular degeneration. The main applications are MS Word, Outlook, Edge and Zoom.

One snag would seem to be training the speech recognition program.  I remember using Dragon about 10 years ago and there was a lengthy training that required reading text to the microphone.  Windows Speech Recognition (WSR) also has training that requires reading text.  WSR depends on the user correcting mistakes properly. I hope the read back function of NVDA will help for that.

Has anyone used NVDA to read out the training text so the user can repeat it verbally to the speech recognition program (WSR)?  I expect this would only work with ear phones on.

I would appreciate information about forums that discuss integration of WSR and NVDA to use Windows Office products. I am aware of Knowbrainer.

Thanks.  This is a great forum!

 

 

 

Hello,
When I connect to another's person usin nvda remote, it does not read
on my end, what she hears, on her end?
What might be the problem, why I can not hear, while to he computer?
Thanks for your help!
Regards,
Thomas.

Hello,
When I connect to another's person usin nvda remote, it does not read on my end, what she hears, on her end?
What might be the problem, why I can not hear, while to he computer?
Thanks for your help!
Regards,
Thomas.

I don't know if this message is getting too detailed and most of it should be on the chat list but it may help some or many people.

Regarding well crafted searches, I'm not sure how much of this applied years ago such as in about 2000, but Google is a consumer product and is now smart enough to give good results even if ;people don't know what used to be taught for defining a search in detail. I never use boolean operators and I almost never use quotation marks. I just type in a few words what I want to know but people can use full sentences if they wish. I might search for something like Happiness IS a Warm Gun lyrics or Happiness Is a Warm Gun Youtube. I might search for something like list of keyboard commands for Word or Microsoft Word. My point is that defining a search most of the time is a matter of typing what you want to know, being aware that if you don't define something enough, you might have to try again with another word or two added or changed to get good results. For example, if I type a name of a song and it’s a common phrase I might see used elsewhere, I might have to do another search such as name of song then type the name of the group.

It might be easier to get people who have the Internet skills to search to do so if it were made clear that searching usually doesn't involve the more complex methods they may have heard discussed.

As far as the discussion of people doing searches, one approach might be to distinguish between the two kinds of people who don't search. there are people who ask lots of
questions over time who have good computer skills and whom I would have no objection to being expected to do searches. They either already can or could do good searches generally with a little instruction.

Then there are those who ask questions off and on and who don't have good computer skills. Those people I would probably let ask questions and not make an issue of searching.



Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Gene
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 6:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

I'm not sure why you didn't find the message. I tried searching for its
beginning one or two ways but then I thought of moving by separator and I
found the start of it immediately below the separator. . I tried other
ways and I got close to the message as well or right to the message text
when I repeated the skip blocs of links command three times.

I wonder if there is something about your browser configuration that is
perhaps interfering with you seeing it?

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 6:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

At 06:31 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:

First, direct link to the opening message:
https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/message/80182

Activating that link takes me to a page telling me everything I do
and don't want to know about the original message except the message
itself, with no keyboard-friendly way of navigating to subsequent
messages in the thread. Most email clients have key commands for
previous and next message; if they don't, and have no way to
configure them, you can guess where I chuck them.


Orlando

At 06:23 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:

Betsy, you know I've lent you a hand directly on occasions, and I
would be happy to keep doing so in regard to polishing your web and/or
archive search skills such that you know the process for zeroing in on
what you're looking for in a very great many cases. That would be a
great Chat Subgroup topic for any and all who want to join in and
improve such skills.

My frustrations with online searches are not with phrasing my queries in order to get hits; I usually get hundreds to thousands of results. My issue is in finding the relevant information on the pages for each activated result. Microsoft's forums, the Super User forums and many others are so cluttered with header information, upvote/downvote crap and ads for driver checking software that I often find myself no better informed after navigating those pages by links, text, controls, articles, block quotes, etc.
I can only imagine how frustrated a beginner would feel when queering Google for, say, the key command to begin playback from the beginning of a file in VLC. The documentation includes no complete hotkey list, and the hotkey dialogue itself is horribly inaccessible.. Videoland's VLC forums are full of exhausting threads and subthreads lasting pages and pages.
But, I happened to mention this to a sighted friend the other day. He did a Google search and it took even him nearly ten minutes to ascertain that the relevant key command is nothing more than the letter P.
Now, come on, we shouldn't have to read through dozens of forum threads to learn that. This is what frustrates people; the signal-to-noise ratio during online searches is very low. I would want to type "VLC Key Commands" into Google and get a hit saying, "Complete List of VLC Key Commands" or shortcut keys. I don't want to read dozens of forum thread to ascertain a single key command.
If you like, I can figure out how to export in some form my last hundred Google searches. Choose, say, three, and time yourself, of course working only with a keyboard and screen reader, to see how long it takes for the relevant question to be answered. I think you'll be unpleasantly disappointed.


Orlando

I don't know if this message is getting too detailed and most of it should be on the chat list but it may help some or many people.

Regarding well crafted searches, I'm not sure how much of this applied years ago such as in about 2000, but Google is a consumer product and is now smart enough to give good results even if ;people don't know what used to be taught for defining a search in detail.  I never use boolean operators and I almost never use quotation marks.  I just type in a few words what I want to know but people can use full sentences if they wish.  I might search for something like Happiness IS a Warm Gun lyrics or Happiness Is a Warm Gun Youtube.  I might search for something like list of keyboard commands for Word or Microsoft Word.  My point is that defining a search most of the time is a matter of typing what you want to know, being aware that if you don't define something enough, you might have to try again with another word or two added or changed to get good results.  For example, if I type a name of a song and it’s a common phrase I might see used elsewhere, I might have to do another search such as name of song then type the name of the group.

It might be easier to get people who have the Internet skills to search to do so if it were made clear that searching usually doesn't involve the more complex methods they may have heard discussed.

As far as the discussion of people doing searches, one approach might be to distinguish between the two kinds of people who don't search.  there are people who ask lots of
questions over time who have good computer skills and whom I would have no objection to being expected to do searches.  They either already can or could do good searches generally with a little instruction.

Then there are those who ask questions off and on and who don't have good computer skills.  Those people I would probably let ask questions and not make an issue of searching.



Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Gene
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 6:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

I'm not sure why you didn't find the message.  I tried searching for its
beginning one or two ways but then I thought of moving by separator and I
found the start of it immediately below the separator.   .  I tried other
ways and I got close to the message as well or right to the message text
when I repeated the skip blocs of links command three times.

I wonder if there is something about your browser configuration that is
perhaps interfering with you seeing it?

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 6:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

At 06:31 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:

First, direct link to the opening message:
https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/message/80182

Activating that link takes me to a page telling me everything I do
and don't want to know about the original message except the message
itself, with no keyboard-friendly way of navigating to subsequent
messages in the thread. Most email clients have key commands for
previous and next message; if they don't, and have no way to
configure them, you can guess where I chuck them.


Orlando

Perhaps one of the developers will address the question.  I wonder if there is a technical reason for this, such as how Windows provides information to screen-readers.  Older screen-readers, such as JAWS, I believe, use a different method for getting a lot of the kinds of information you are discussing.

Another thing which would be very useful and it would be very important to some people would be the ability to create what JAWS calls frames, certain parts of the screen that will automatically take actions under certain conditions or that you can have read by issuing a command.  and regarding having things read, the frame can be set to automatically read under certain conditions.

I suspect there is some sort of technical limitation on the way NVDA gets information because this is a feature of enough importance that I suspect it would have been implemented if it could have been.  However, I may be wrong about both and I hope those with the technical knowledge discuss those questions.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 6:17 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

At 06:06 PM 1/4/2021, Chris Smart wrote:

Betsy, have you tried the NVDA basic training?
I'm going through it now, after using another screen reader for

many years, and I find it to be quite well written and organized,
with lots of little exercises to actually work through.

I know we're on the NVDA list. But I may as well come clean. NVDA
will never be my primary screen reader until it gives me control over
the exact order of spoken elements. Every other screen reader
provides this. If I'm going through a list of check boxes and want to
hear which ones are checked, I need the state spoken either first or
right after the control type, not at the end of its field data. For
another example, if I'm in a dialogue where I know that its only
combo edit box changes a particular setting, I need my screen reader
to announce the control type first while I quickly tab between
fields. How this has managed to get through so many of NVDA versions
without being addressed, with the cooperation of so many blind users,
is baffling.


Orlando

At 06:23 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:

Betsy, you know I've lent you a hand directly on occasions, and I
would be happy to keep doing so in regard to polishing your web and/or
archive search skills such that you know the process for zeroing in on
what you're looking for in a very great many cases.  That would be a
great Chat Subgroup topic for any and all who want to join in and
improve such skills.

My frustrations with online searches are not with phrasing my queries in order to get hits; I usually get hundreds to thousands of results. My issue is in finding the relevant information on the pages for each activated result. Microsoft's forums, the Super User forums and many others are so cluttered with header information, upvote/downvote crap and ads for driver checking software that I often find myself no better informed after navigating those pages by links, text, controls, articles, block quotes, etc.
I can only imagine how frustrated a beginner would feel when queering Google for, say, the key command to begin playback from the beginning of a file in VLC. The documentation includes no complete hotkey list, and the hotkey dialogue itself is horribly inaccessible.. Videoland's VLC forums are full of exhausting threads and subthreads lasting pages and pages.
But, I happened to mention this to a sighted friend the other day. He did a Google search and it took even him nearly ten minutes to ascertain that the relevant key command is nothing more than the letter P.
Now, come on, we shouldn't have to read through dozens of forum threads to learn that. This is what frustrates people; the signal-to-noise ratio during online searches is very low. I would want to type "VLC Key Commands" into Google and get a hit saying, "Complete List of VLC Key Commands" or shortcut keys. I don't want to read dozens of forum thread to ascertain a single key command.
If you like, I can figure out how to export in some form my last hundred Google searches. Choose, say, three, and time yourself, of course working only with a keyboard and screen reader, to see how long it takes for the relevant question to be answered. I think you'll be unpleasantly disappointed.


Orlando

On Jan 11, 2021, at 2:08 AM, Kara Goldfinch <kara.louise18@...> wrote:



Hi Luke,

You can move the mouse to where the virtual focus is by pressing NVDA+numpad slash, then you can press numpad slash to click it.

I've also run into the  same issue as you where enter sometimes doesn't work, so here's a couple of things I also try.

After moving the mouse to the thing you want to  click, press shift+numpad slash twice with a short pause in-between. This locks and unlocks the left  mouse button. This could help if the app expects the button to be held down longer than usual.

Another thing to bear in mind is that sometimes the text that OCR recognises might just be the control's label, and the actual control could be above, below or to the side of it. I've noticed this in Omnissphere for example. The only way round this is to randomly click around the label with golden cursor, possibly listening for a different colour/brightness level depending on how you have it set up. I usually get tired of this pretty quickly, however.

I hope this helps any.

Kara

On 10/01/2021 01:02, Luke Robinett wrote:

Hi,

 

For inaccessible UIs I’ll often run NVDA OCR on the UI and then press enter or space bar on the UI controls I find in the recognized text such as tabs, menus and buttons. I find this only works in some programs and other times seems to be ignored. I believe the issue in some cases is that some UIs only respond when an actual mouse is clicked on a control. Is there a way to have the mouse cursor move to the UI element corresponding with its label in the OCR viewer and produce a click on that element? If not, is this something I could submit on GitHub as a feature request? It would make the already helpful OCR feature even more useful.

 

Thanks,

Luke