Date   

Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 11, 2021 at 06:43 PM, Luke Robinett wrote:
Can't hurt to be familiar with some advanced search techniques like using quotes for an exact phrase match, the plus sign to indicate that a search term must be present or a minus sign to indicate not to return any results with that search term
-
And what you've listed above are probably the most advanced search operators that many will ever use.  The only other one I'd add, which is used very seldom but is really, really handy at times, is the site: operator.  It allows you to limit your search to a specific website or part of a website, depending on the URL you put after the colon (and you don't need the http:// or https://).

I still use quoted phrases for exact matches the most frequently, but will also use the minus operator to eliminate results I don't want.  And that's not just in web search engines, but also other searches like Amazon when looking for a product.  If you're dealing with, say, a specific smartphone you will virtually always get hundreds of results for cases or screen protectors for it as well.  A search using, for instance:

"Galaxy S10" -case -"screen protector"

gets rid of scads of unwanted results.  Of course, if all one wanted was screen protectors, but not cases for a given model, changing that minus to a plus in front of "screen protector" would get you that.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Will NVDA eventually use AI for better GUI recognition?

William
 

That is good idea, and also I like voiceover the ability to label inaccessible element myself.


Luke Robinett 於 12/1/2021 7:48 寫道:

So one thing I enjoy about VoiceOver on my iPhone is it has gotten really good at using UI to make otherwise inaccessible UI elements available to interact with. More than just simple OCR, it can ascertain the layout and make educated guesses about controls like buttons and tabs, greatly expanding the usability of apps that otherwise would be partially or totally inaccessible.

Is there any chance NVDA will eventually reach that level of sophistication? I know there are third party add-ons that attempt to bridge that gap for specific types of apps, for example the great Sibiac add-on which helps make certain music production apps and plugins accessible with NVDA, but it would be great to see these capabilities broadened and rolled into the core functionality of the product.

 

Thanks,

Luke

 


Will NVDA eventually use AI for better GUI recognition?

Luke Robinett
 

So one thing I enjoy about VoiceOver on my iPhone is it has gotten really good at using UI to make otherwise inaccessible UI elements available to interact with. More than just simple OCR, it can ascertain the layout and make educated guesses about controls like buttons and tabs, greatly expanding the usability of apps that otherwise would be partially or totally inaccessible.

Is there any chance NVDA will eventually reach that level of sophistication? I know there are third party add-ons that attempt to bridge that gap for specific types of apps, for example the great Sibiac add-on which helps make certain music production apps and plugins accessible with NVDA, but it would be great to see these capabilities broadened and rolled into the core functionality of the product.

 

Thanks,

Luke

 


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Luke Robinett
 

Can't hurt to be familiar with some advanced search techniques like using quotes for an exact phrase match, the plus sign to indicate that a search term must be present or a minus sign to indicate not to return any results with that search term, but I agree that search engines today are much smarter than they were when I first started using Yahoo in 1995. Unless what you're searching for is extremely unusual or esoteric, most folks won't need to know the advanced techniques for general use.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dave Grossoehme
Sent: Monday, January 11, 2021 1:05 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

Good Afternoon;: I will disagree with you 100% here on your search skills. The quotation mark is an automatic with a lot of search engines. You must like Googgle following you to use that search engine. The next thing is the question of what are you going to do it your information is case sensitive and you don't use upper and lower case to find the information. There are times that you could be searching for hours if you don't use all the search tools.

Dave


On 1/4/2021 6:34 PM, Gene wrote:
I don't know if this message is getting too detailed and most of it
should be on the chat list but it may help some or many people.

Regarding well crafted searches, I'm not sure how much of this applied
years ago such as in about 2000, but Google is a consumer product and
is now smart enough to give good results even if ;people don't know
what used to be taught for defining a search in detail. I never use
boolean operators and I almost never use quotation marks. I just type
in a few words what I want to know but people can use full sentences
if they wish. I might search for something like Happiness IS a Warm
Gun lyrics or Happiness Is a Warm Gun Youtube. I might search for
something like list of keyboard commands for Word or Microsoft Word.
My point is that defining a search most of the time is a matter of
typing what you want to know, being aware that if you don't define
something enough, you might have to try again with another word or two
added or changed to get good results. For example, if I type a name
of a song and it’s a common phrase I might see used elsewhere, I might
have to do another search such as name of song then type the name of
the group.

It might be easier to get people who have the Internet skills to
search to do so if it were made clear that searching usually doesn't
involve the more complex methods they may have heard discussed.

As far as the discussion of people doing searches, one approach might
be to distinguish between the two kinds of people who don't search.
there are people who ask lots of
questions over time who have good computer skills and whom I would
have no objection to being expected to do searches. They either
already can or could do good searches generally with a little
instruction.

Then there are those who ask questions off and on and who don't have
good computer skills. Those people I would probably let ask questions
and not make an issue of searching.



Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Gene
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 6:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

I'm not sure why you didn't find the message. I tried searching for
its beginning one or two ways but then I thought of moving by
separator and I found the start of it immediately below the separator.
. I tried other ways and I got close to the message as well or right
to the message text when I repeated the skip blocs of links command three times.

I wonder if there is something about your browser configuration that
is perhaps interfering with you seeing it?

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 6:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

At 06:31 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
First, direct link to the opening message:
https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/message/80182
Activating that link takes me to a page telling me everything I do and
don't want to know about the original message except the message
itself, with no keyboard-friendly way of navigating to subsequent
messages in the thread. Most email clients have key commands for
previous and next message; if they don't, and have no way to configure
them, you can guess where I chuck them.


Orlando










Re: Using NVDA With Remote!

Kerryn Gunness
 

probably you may need to repeat the process again

----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas E Williamson, Senior" <pofm2016@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, January 11, 2021 6:34 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using NVDA With Remote!


Yes Mam, I did that, but I can not hear anything.
I wonder, if there is an add on that I need to get.



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ann Byrne
Sent: Monday, January 11, 2021 4:18 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using NVDA With Remote!

If you are set up to control the other computer, remember to press
f11 so you can see/hear it.
At 04:04 PM 1/11/2021, you wrote:
Hello,
When I connect to another's person usin nvda remote, it does not read
on my end, what she hears, on her end?
What might be the problem, why I can not hear, while to he computer?
Thanks for your help!
Regards,
Thomas.















Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

 

On Mon, Jan 11, 2021 at 04:05 PM, Dave Grossoehme wrote:
I will disagree with you 100% here on your search skills.
-
And you would be wrong, and Gene would be correct.  Virtually everything you describe is not now, and has never been, the case for web searching.  If you are not going about something in "the usual way" you will get unusual results.  And, as Gene has already noted, the ability of search engines to use "fuzzy logic" means that, other than using quoted strings when you want an absolutely exact match (but not case sensitive, in most cases), a natural language question will work if one chooses to use one.

Web searching has only become easier, and far, far more intuitive, over the decades.  And anyone can acquire the basics for doing them with ease.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Use NVDA to help train Speech Recognition?

Sky Mundell
 

I tried that 3 years ago and didn’t get any luck with it. Their used to be a plugin called Dictation Bridge but it doesn’t seem to work with NVDA 2020 or later.

On Jan 11, 2021, at 2:36 PM, Milton Charlton <milton.charlton@...> wrote:

Use NVDA to help train Speech Recognition?

I am trying to help someone start using a Windows computer with speech input and audio output.  They has lost ability to read owing to macular degeneration. The main applications are MS Word, Outlook, Edge and Zoom.
One snag would seem to be training the speech recognition program.  I remember using Dragon about 10 years ago and there was a lengthy training that required reading text to the microphone.  Windows Speech Recognition (WSR) also has training that requires reading text.  WSR depends on the user correcting mistakes properly. I hope the read back function of NVDA will help for that.

Has anyone used NVDA to read out the training text so the user can repeat it verbally to the speech recognition program (WSR)?  I expect this would only work with ear phones on.

I would appreciate information about forums that discuss integration of WSR and NVDA to use Windows Office products. I am aware of Knowbrainer.

Thanks.  This is a great forum!

 

 

 



Use NVDA to help train Speech Recognition?

Milton Charlton
 

Use NVDA to help train Speech Recognition?

I am trying to help someone start using a Windows computer with speech input and audio output.  They has lost ability to read owing to macular degeneration. The main applications are MS Word, Outlook, Edge and Zoom.

One snag would seem to be training the speech recognition program.  I remember using Dragon about 10 years ago and there was a lengthy training that required reading text to the microphone.  Windows Speech Recognition (WSR) also has training that requires reading text.  WSR depends on the user correcting mistakes properly. I hope the read back function of NVDA will help for that.

Has anyone used NVDA to read out the training text so the user can repeat it verbally to the speech recognition program (WSR)?  I expect this would only work with ear phones on.

I would appreciate information about forums that discuss integration of WSR and NVDA to use Windows Office products. I am aware of Knowbrainer.

Thanks.  This is a great forum!

 

 

 


Re: Using NVDA With Remote!

Thomas E Williamson, Senior
 

Yes Mam, I did that, but I can not hear anything.
I wonder, if there is an add on that I need to get.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ann Byrne
Sent: Monday, January 11, 2021 4:18 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using NVDA With Remote!

If you are set up to control the other computer, remember to press
f11 so you can see/hear it.
At 04:04 PM 1/11/2021, you wrote:
Hello,
When I connect to another's person usin nvda remote, it does not read
on my end, what she hears, on her end?
What might be the problem, why I can not hear, while to he computer?
Thanks for your help!
Regards,
Thomas.






Re: Using NVDA With Remote!

Ann Byrne
 

If you are set up to control the other computer, remember to press f11 so you can see/hear it.

At 04:04 PM 1/11/2021, you wrote:
Hello,
When I connect to another's person usin nvda remote, it does not read on my end, what she hears, on her end?
What might be the problem, why I can not hear, while to he computer?
Thanks for your help!
Regards,
Thomas.






Using NVDA With Remote!

Thomas E Williamson, Senior
 

Hello,
When I connect to another's person usin nvda remote, it does not read on my end, what she hears, on her end?
What might be the problem, why I can not hear, while to he computer?
Thanks for your help!
Regards,
Thomas.


Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Gene
 

You yourself said in an earlier message that you have trouble searching. It may be because you are making searches far too complicated. You can disagree and perhaps you are disaggreeing because searching may have been more complicated in the nineties. But I'm telling you from years of experience with searching well, that your ideas of search are completely wrong. I don't know what you mean about quotation marks being a default in Google. they aren't. Searches are not case sensative by default. You may be able to make a search case sensative, I've never checked but as I said they aren't by default. and it usually doesn't matter. Search engines these days, the sophisticated ones are smart enough to find something without customizing searches with such things as quotation marks and boolean operators. There are rare times when I do a search and I get lots of poor matches when I may use quotation marks. But most of the time, I can search for the name of a book, for example no quotes no anything other than the name and if I want to see reviews, I add the word review or reviews and I almost always get good results. Try it and see. Just write what you want to search for and see what happens.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Grossoehme
Sent: Monday, January 11, 2021 3:05 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

Good Afternoon;: I will disagree with you 100% here on your search
skills. The quotation mark is an automatic with a lot of search
engines. You must like Googgle following you to use that search
engine. The next thing is the question of what are you going to do it
your information is case sensitive and you don't use upper and lower
case to find the information. There are times that you could be
searching for hours if you don't use all the search tools.

Dave


On 1/4/2021 6:34 PM, Gene wrote:
I don't know if this message is getting too detailed and most of it should be on the chat list but it may help some or many people.

Regarding well crafted searches, I'm not sure how much of this applied years ago such as in about 2000, but Google is a consumer product and is now smart enough to give good results even if ;people don't know what used to be taught for defining a search in detail. I never use boolean operators and I almost never use quotation marks. I just type in a few words what I want to know but people can use full sentences if they wish. I might search for something like Happiness IS a Warm Gun lyrics or Happiness Is a Warm Gun Youtube. I might search for something like list of keyboard commands for Word or Microsoft Word. My point is that defining a search most of the time is a matter of typing what you want to know, being aware that if you don't define something enough, you might have to try again with another word or two added or changed to get good results. For example, if I type a name of a song and it’s a common phrase I might see used elsewhere, I might have to do another search such as name of song then type the name of the group.

It might be easier to get people who have the Internet skills to search to do so if it were made clear that searching usually doesn't involve the more complex methods they may have heard discussed.

As far as the discussion of people doing searches, one approach might be to distinguish between the two kinds of people who don't search. there are people who ask lots of
questions over time who have good computer skills and whom I would have no objection to being expected to do searches. They either already can or could do good searches generally with a little instruction.

Then there are those who ask questions off and on and who don't have good computer skills. Those people I would probably let ask questions and not make an issue of searching.



Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Gene
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 6:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

I'm not sure why you didn't find the message. I tried searching for its
beginning one or two ways but then I thought of moving by separator and I
found the start of it immediately below the separator. . I tried other
ways and I got close to the message as well or right to the message text
when I repeated the skip blocs of links command three times.

I wonder if there is something about your browser configuration that is
perhaps interfering with you seeing it?

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 6:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

At 06:31 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
First, direct link to the opening message:
https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/message/80182
Activating that link takes me to a page telling me everything I do
and don't want to know about the original message except the message
itself, with no keyboard-friendly way of navigating to subsequent
messages in the thread. Most email clients have key commands for
previous and next message; if they don't, and have no way to
configure them, you can guess where I chuck them.


Orlando










Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Gene
 

I don't know if we can discuss your search problems well without knowing how you search, what sort of phrases you use, whether you use things like quotation marks, etc.

Good search engines today are consumer products and make searching as easy as possible. These days, you don't have to know much to get good results but if people do certain things such as misuse quotation marks, they may get poor results.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Grossoehme
Sent: Monday, January 11, 2021 2:33 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

Good Afternoon: As far as the search problem I have a computer user
from back in the early '90s. I still have problems in searching. I
have gone so far as changing search engines if I can't find the exact
item that I am hunting for.

Dave


On 1/4/2021 5:29 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io wrote:
At 06:23 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
Betsy, you know I've lent you a hand directly on occasions, and I
would be happy to keep doing so in regard to polishing your web and/or
archive search skills such that you know the process for zeroing in on
what you're looking for in a very great many cases. That would be a
great Chat Subgroup topic for any and all who want to join in and
improve such skills.
My frustrations with online searches are not with phrasing my queries in order to get hits; I usually get hundreds to thousands of results. My issue is in finding the relevant information on the pages for each activated result. Microsoft's forums, the Super User forums and many others are so cluttered with header information, upvote/downvote crap and ads for driver checking software that I often find myself no better informed after navigating those pages by links, text, controls, articles, block quotes, etc.
I can only imagine how frustrated a beginner would feel when queering Google for, say, the key command to begin playback from the beginning of a file in VLC. The documentation includes no complete hotkey list, and the hotkey dialogue itself is horribly inaccessible.. Videoland's VLC forums are full of exhausting threads and subthreads lasting pages and pages.
But, I happened to mention this to a sighted friend the other day. He did a Google search and it took even him nearly ten minutes to ascertain that the relevant key command is nothing more than the letter P.
Now, come on, we shouldn't have to read through dozens of forum threads to learn that. This is what frustrates people; the signal-to-noise ratio during online searches is very low. I would want to type "VLC Key Commands" into Google and get a hit saying, "Complete List of VLC Key Commands" or shortcut keys. I don't want to read dozens of forum thread to ascertain a single key command.
If you like, I can figure out how to export in some form my last hundred Google searches. Choose, say, three, and time yourself, of course working only with a keyboard and screen reader, to see how long it takes for the relevant question to be answered. I think you'll be unpleasantly disappointed.


Orlando





Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Dave Grossoehme
 

Good Afternoon;:  I will disagree with you 100% here on your search skills.  The quotation mark is an automatic with a lot of search engines.  You must like Googgle following you to use that search engine.  The next thing is the question of what are you going to do it your information is case sensitive and you don't use upper and lower case to find the information.  There are times that you could be searching for hours if you don't use all the search tools.

Dave

On 1/4/2021 6:34 PM, Gene wrote:
I don't know if this message is getting too detailed and most of it should be on the chat list but it may help some or many people.

Regarding well crafted searches, I'm not sure how much of this applied years ago such as in about 2000, but Google is a consumer product and is now smart enough to give good results even if ;people don't know what used to be taught for defining a search in detail.  I never use boolean operators and I almost never use quotation marks.  I just type in a few words what I want to know but people can use full sentences if they wish.  I might search for something like Happiness IS a Warm Gun lyrics or Happiness Is a Warm Gun Youtube.  I might search for something like list of keyboard commands for Word or Microsoft Word.  My point is that defining a search most of the time is a matter of typing what you want to know, being aware that if you don't define something enough, you might have to try again with another word or two added or changed to get good results.  For example, if I type a name of a song and it’s a common phrase I might see used elsewhere, I might have to do another search such as name of song then type the name of the group.

It might be easier to get people who have the Internet skills to search to do so if it were made clear that searching usually doesn't involve the more complex methods they may have heard discussed.

As far as the discussion of people doing searches, one approach might be to distinguish between the two kinds of people who don't search.  there are people who ask lots of
questions over time who have good computer skills and whom I would have no objection to being expected to do searches.  They either already can or could do good searches generally with a little instruction.

Then there are those who ask questions off and on and who don't have good computer skills.  Those people I would probably let ask questions and not make an issue of searching.



Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Gene
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 6:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

I'm not sure why you didn't find the message.  I tried searching for its
beginning one or two ways but then I thought of moving by separator and I
found the start of it immediately below the separator.   .  I tried other
ways and I got close to the message as well or right to the message text
when I repeated the skip blocs of links command three times.

I wonder if there is something about your browser configuration that is
perhaps interfering with you seeing it?

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 6:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

At 06:31 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
First, direct link to the opening message:
https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/message/80182
Activating that link takes me to a page telling me everything I do
and don't want to know about the original message except the message
itself, with no keyboard-friendly way of navigating to subsequent
messages in the thread. Most email clients have key commands for
previous and next message; if they don't, and have no way to
configure them, you can guess where I chuck them.


Orlando









Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Dave Grossoehme
 

Good Afternoon:  Being Jaws and NVDA use different programming languages, it doesn't make it difficult to have the same outcomes.  Jaws uses the C programming Language as far as I know. NVDA usesPython Computer programming language.

Dave

On 1/4/2021 5:40 PM, Gene wrote:
Perhaps one of the developers will address the question.  I wonder if there is a technical reason for this, such as how Windows provides information to screen-readers.  Older screen-readers, such as JAWS, I believe, use a different method for getting a lot of the kinds of information you are discussing.

Another thing which would be very useful and it would be very important to some people would be the ability to create what JAWS calls frames, certain parts of the screen that will automatically take actions under certain conditions or that you can have read by issuing a command.  and regarding having things read, the frame can be set to automatically read under certain conditions.

I suspect there is some sort of technical limitation on the way NVDA gets information because this is a feature of enough importance that I suspect it would have been implemented if it could have been.  However, I may be wrong about both and I hope those with the technical knowledge discuss those questions.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 6:17 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

At 06:06 PM 1/4/2021, Chris Smart wrote:
Betsy, have you tried the NVDA basic training?
I'm going through it now, after using another screen reader for
many years, and I find it to be quite well written and organized,
with lots of little exercises to actually work through.

I know we're on the NVDA list. But I may as well come clean. NVDA
will never be my primary screen reader until it gives me control over
the exact order of spoken elements. Every other screen reader
provides this. If I'm going through a list of check boxes and want to
hear which ones are checked, I need the state spoken either first or
right after the control type, not at the end of its field data. For
another example, if I'm in a dialogue where I know that its only
combo edit box changes a particular setting, I need my screen reader
to announce the control type first while I quickly tab between
fields. How this has managed to get through so many of NVDA versions
without being addressed, with the cooperation of so many blind users,
is baffling.


Orlando









Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Dave Grossoehme
 

Good Afternoon:  As far as the search problem I have a computer user from back in the early '90s.  I still have problems in searching.  I have gone so far as changing search engines if I can't find the exact item that I am hunting for.

Dave

On 1/4/2021 5:29 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol via groups.io wrote:
At 06:23 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
Betsy, you know I've lent you a hand directly on occasions, and I
would be happy to keep doing so in regard to polishing your web and/or
archive search skills such that you know the process for zeroing in on
what you're looking for in a very great many cases.  That would be a
great Chat Subgroup topic for any and all who want to join in and
improve such skills.
My frustrations with online searches are not with phrasing my queries in order to get hits; I usually get hundreds to thousands of results. My issue is in finding the relevant information on the pages for each activated result. Microsoft's forums, the Super User forums and many others are so cluttered with header information, upvote/downvote crap and ads for driver checking software that I often find myself no better informed after navigating those pages by links, text, controls, articles, block quotes, etc.
I can only imagine how frustrated a beginner would feel when queering Google for, say, the key command to begin playback from the beginning of a file in VLC. The documentation includes no complete hotkey list, and the hotkey dialogue itself is horribly inaccessible.. Videoland's VLC forums are full of exhausting threads and subthreads lasting pages and pages.
But, I happened to mention this to a sighted friend the other day. He did a Google search and it took even him nearly ten minutes to ascertain that the relevant key command is nothing more than the letter P.
Now, come on, we shouldn't have to read through dozens of forum threads to learn that. This is what frustrates people; the signal-to-noise ratio during online searches is very low. I would want to type "VLC Key Commands" into Google and get a hit saying, "Complete List of VLC Key Commands" or shortcut keys. I don't want to read dozens of forum thread to ascertain a single key command.
If you like, I can figure out how to export in some form my last hundred Google searches. Choose, say, three, and time yourself, of course working only with a keyboard and screen reader, to see how long it takes for the relevant question to be answered. I think you'll be unpleasantly disappointed.


Orlando




Re: OCR: Interacting with items from recognized UI

Luke Robinett
 

Hi Kara,

Thanks for your reply. I think what I wasn’t clear on is that hitting enter or space in the OCR viewer actually generates a left click on that item, something I was able to confirm. That clears up a lot of my confusion.
I think you might be right that the likely culprit is simply that the label isn’t actually part of the UI control so isn’t doing anything when I click it. Until we get more sophisticated GUI recognition tools in NVDA, my best bet is probably just to have my wife line the mouse cursor up with the controls I need so I can capture some golden cursor hotspots for future use.

Thanks again to everybody who replied,
Luke

On Jan 11, 2021, at 2:08 AM, Kara Goldfinch <kara.louise18@...> wrote:



Hi Luke,

You can move the mouse to where the virtual focus is by pressing NVDA+numpad slash, then you can press numpad slash to click it.

I've also run into the  same issue as you where enter sometimes doesn't work, so here's a couple of things I also try.

After moving the mouse to the thing you want to  click, press shift+numpad slash twice with a short pause in-between. This locks and unlocks the left  mouse button. This could help if the app expects the button to be held down longer than usual.

Another thing to bear in mind is that sometimes the text that OCR recognises might just be the control's label, and the actual control could be above, below or to the side of it. I've noticed this in Omnissphere for example. The only way round this is to randomly click around the label with golden cursor, possibly listening for a different colour/brightness level depending on how you have it set up. I usually get tired of this pretty quickly, however.

I hope this helps any.


Kara

On 10/01/2021 01:02, Luke Robinett wrote:

Hi,

 

For inaccessible UIs I’ll often run NVDA OCR on the UI and then press enter or space bar on the UI controls I find in the recognized text such as tabs, menus and buttons. I find this only works in some programs and other times seems to be ignored. I believe the issue in some cases is that some UIs only respond when an actual mouse is clicked on a control. Is there a way to have the mouse cursor move to the UI element corresponding with its label in the OCR viewer and produce a click on that element? If not, is this something I could submit on GitHub as a feature request? It would make the already helpful OCR feature even more useful.

 

Thanks,

Luke

 


Re: question about the right click button numpad star*

Gene
 

I'm not talking about using keyboard commands. I'm simply saying that the discussion didn't state that you need to route the mouse with NVDA before using the physical mouse click commands. I don't know how many people know that routing the virtual mouse routs the mouse, just as moving the mouse with a physical mouse does. Because we don't know who is following the thread, it is a good idea to say to route the mouse with NVDA before using the physical click commands and that is all I'm saying.

I happened to work with a trainer who specifically said that when you move the mouse with a screen-reader you are moving the mouse. I do not assume that a lot of people have been told that and they may think that using a physical mouse is somehow different. You are discussing a procedure not commonly used by blind people and it is goode to clarify. I'm not saying that you should explain things that are common knowledge.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Monday, January 11, 2021 11:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] question about the right click button numpad star*

Gene,

By the way, you only need to route the mouse in certain circumstances as well. For instance, if I'm in File Explorer, and have focus with selection on a specific file or group of files, gained strictly using keyboard commands, a right click will bring up the context menu that's appropriate for that context (which is different for a single select versus multi select and a folder select versus file select etc.)

And I presume that this is a known for anyone who's used Windows for any period of time (whether with NVDA or not). You learn what's necessary when by trial and error, and I'm willing to assume most here have already undergone said trial and error before ever having joined, and am willing to walk through it if the need to do so arises. It seldom does.
--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

~ Brian Vogel


Re: question about the right click button numpad star*

 

Gene,

           By the way, you only need to route the mouse in certain circumstances as well.  For instance, if I'm in File Explorer, and have focus with selection on a specific file or group of files, gained strictly using keyboard commands, a right click will bring up the context menu that's appropriate for that context (which is different for a single select versus multi select and a folder select versus file select etc.)

            And I presume that this is a known for anyone who's used Windows for any period of time (whether with NVDA or not).  You learn what's necessary when by trial and error, and I'm willing to assume most here have already undergone said trial and error before ever having joined, and am willing to walk through it if the need to do so arises.  It seldom does.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: question about the right click button numpad star*

 

On Mon, Jan 11, 2021 at 11:53 AM, Gene wrote:
You can have focus on something by using the arrow keys to move to something in a list, for example. The mouse is not at the location you are.
-
Gene, focus means, to me, "as appropriate for the thing being discussed."

You are 100% correct, and what you've said, in my opinion, goes without saying.  I am not going to drag out every conversation by "clarifying" things I am willing to believe a user already knows, or will end up asking if they don't and something goes wrong.  I do not presume neophytes, but people asking focused questions who are otherwise quite familiar with mouse movement versus simple focus.  When you're talking about mouse type commands "mouse focus," for lack of a better term, is what should be presumed.  Route mouse commands should have already been used.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 

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