Date   

Re: Navigating A Web Page

 

On Sat, Jan 23, 2021 at 12:42 PM, Gene wrote:
but testing may require constant removal of the cookie left by the site.
-
That really depends on how you have your browser settings configured.  If you're someone like me, who uses "start from where I left off" (or similar phrasing, it depends on the browser), then far more cookies, including session cookies, are retained if you exit the browser and restart it.

In most cases, something like a "Maybe Later" button should set a cookie that expires, and if you're not using the previously mentioned setting these generally get purged when you exit the browser and restart it.  But not always, some are set to expire after a certain time elapses.

So you are absolutely correct that you may have to clear cookies for a period of time that is at least as long since you activated that Maybe Later button.  This often has the unfortunate side effect of nuking session cookies, which are what keep you recognized as being logged in on various sites in the browser.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Navigating A Web Page

 

On Sat, Jan 23, 2021 at 12:42 PM, Gene wrote:
You can activate the play button and the maybe later button isn't shown.
-
That's because the Maybe Later button is one of the three on the modal dialog, and once that's been dismissed, it no longer exists.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Navigating A Web Page

Gene
 

I found that after you activate the maybe later button, that when you go to the site again, conditions have changed. You can activate the play button and the maybe later button isn't shown. I don't know if this site is at all representative of typical sites with dialogs in terms of how NVDA responds, but testing may require constant removal of the cookie left by the site.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Luke Davis
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2021 11:19 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Navigating A Web Page

On Sat, 23 Jan 2021, Brian Vogel wrote:

And, ideally, that happens by someone
creating an issue in GitHub (or adding a comment to an already existing one if such exists).
Which I did, last night, after posting the message to which you responded. If
someone wants to comment with more examples, or more technical information, please do.
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/12009

Luke


Re: Navigating A Web Page

 

On Sat, Jan 23, 2021 at 12:19 PM, Luke Davis wrote:
Which I did, last night, after posting the message to which you responded.
-
A big thank you.  Would that more did this.  And thanks for providing the direct link to the issue on which others can comment.  (If you are someone who wants to comment, but does not have a GitHub Account, you're going to need to set one up before you can:  Creating a Github Account).

Just tried this page in Vivaldi, and it's acting a bit like a hybrid of Firefox and Brave in what it's doing, and Vivaldi is a Chromium-based browser.

I find it very weird that these modal dialogs don't capture you within them, and limit interaction to within them, like normal dialog boxes do.  And whether that's because the information is not provided to the screen reader about the status, the screen reader ignoring that status, or something else entirely remains to be seen.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Navigating A Web Page

Luke Davis
 

On Sat, 23 Jan 2021, Brian Vogel wrote:

And, ideally, that happens by someone
creating an issue in GitHub (or adding a comment to an already existing one if such exists).
Which I did, last night, after posting the message to which you responded. If someone wants to comment with more examples, or more technical information, please do.
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/12009

Luke


Creating an Issue in GitHub for NVDA

 

Step-by-Step Tutorial in MS-Word Format:  Creating an Issue in GitHub for NVDA

The tutorial contains links to other tutorials such as Creating a GitHub Account, and others, so that it is as short as possible for those who don't need or want to do several of the optional things.

I have created an MS-Word Fillable Form template for use by those who would prefer not to try to edit the issue edit box in GitHub.  As I say in the tutorial, if you're comfortable with direct editing in that edit box, then have at it.  But if you want to be able to touch only the things the end user is supposed to enter (and have help available via for the fields where some explanation is needed) while preserving all the labels that must remain untouched for the developers, give the fillable form a try.

The tutorial is two pages long, and can be a bit of a slog to read, as I've tried to cover what you need to do before actually even considering submitting a bug report, and how to search to see if a bug report on the issue you're having already exists, in which case you should comment on the existing one.

But, once you've gone through the process a time or two, most of what is in this tutorial will become "automatic" or second nature.  It's really meant to cover everything that the first-time bug reporter will encounter and have to do.

P.S.  A big thanks to Quentin Christensen for his long-ago instructions for removing editing restrictions on an MS-Word Fillable Form using the Review Ribbon/Tab.  That one is always available by default, and my usual method used the Developer Tab, which is not.  His method makes life much easier for "your typical MS-Word user."
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: loss of shortcut keys

 

hello.
i had this issue for awhile, but thanks God, i found a workarround for it.
when nvda keyes dont work, do the following.
1. press nvda plus q.
2. nvda exit dialog options are in the background.
3. press alt plus tab to find the dialog box.
4. press scape to close it.
in normal cases, when you press nvda plus q, nvda dialog box is
available and you can navigate immediately instead of using alt tab.

On 1/22/21, Don H <lmddh50@adams.net> wrote:
Running NVDA 2020.4 beta 4 on a Win 10 20h2 system.
Having a lot of issues with all the shortuct keys for NVDA not working.
Only way to get them working again is to reload NVDA.






--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali


Re: Navigating A Web Page

 

On Sat, Jan 23, 2021 at 02:25 AM, Luke Davis wrote:
So no, I'm afraid the experience is not the same, and the screen reader is not providing the same information.
-
All accessibility is a workaround, and I have said this on many, many occasions.  Substituting sight with audition, which is what screen readers do, will never, ever be an "exact match" for what someone sees, because it can't be.

There is no winning here.  There have been plenty of complaints (and I'm not saying from you, but you've been around here long enough to see them, multiple times) about a screen reader being "too verbose" and announcing things that a given end user doesn't want or need.  You could, I am certain, force a screen reader to announce something like, "Modal dialog," or, "Overlay dialog," when shifts of focus occur to one, which will be loved by some and hated by others.  But one thing is for certain, when those occur you, as a screen reader user, should be "trapped" in them by the screen reader in the same manner a sighted user is by sight.  If this is not how it's being handled, then that's how it needs to be handled, as in reality you do not have access to the underlying webpage until and unless that modal dialog is dismissed.

I can't speak to whether the issue lies with NVDA, the web browser(s), or a combination of both.

At this point, I'm not even going to try to retest with Brave.  If there is an issue, any issue, with accessibility due to "lack of clarity regarding what's going on" then that needs to be addressed.  And, ideally, that happens by someone creating an issue in GitHub (or adding a comment to an already existing one if such exists).

I have repeatedly posted on how to create a GitHub account and also posted an MS-Word fillable form that allows those who wish to use it an easier time of filling out an issue ticket, then unprotecting the form, selecting all, and copying and pasting that content in to the issue so that it's impossible to screw up formatting.  While this group absolutely can and should serve the purpose of open discussion of issues, and whether those are the result of user error versus software error, when it's the latter it is absolutely no substitute for actually reporting issues to NVAccess.  And that's far from impossible (or even all that difficult, really, once you've done it a time or two) for anyone.  So if this is a problem, and it appears it is, then those who are having it and can describe what it is that's happening, and what they think should be happening, in light of what has transpired here should go out there and create an issue on GitHub.  That's how things get noticed and, possibly, fixed by those in the position to do so.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: loss of shortcut keys

Gene
 

I don't know if its worth reporting the problem in my case because I use Windows 7. But off and on, the NVDA key stops working. I unload NVDA from the system tray and run it again.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Luke Davis
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2021 2:27 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] loss of shortcut keys

Don

That is the same as the issue I reported here:
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/11546

To date, nobody else has commented that they are experiencing the same thing.
If you could, please go there and leave a comment that you have this issue,
including your NVDA and Windows versions.

Luke

On Fri, 22 Jan 2021, Don H wrote:

Running NVDA 2020.4 beta 4 on a Win 10 20h2 system.
Having a lot of issues with all the shortuct keys for NVDA not working. Only way to get them working again is to reload NVDA.


Re: NVDA and hotkeys in Skype

Kerryn Gunness <k_gunness@...>
 


you are pressing the correct command
probably try pressing alt, then alt again to regain focus
then try the command again
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2021 4:12 AM
Subject: [nvda] NVDA and hotkeys in Skype

Hello all in the nvda group,
I have windows 10 64 bit and skype desktop.
I can’t hang up the talk with the key Ctrl + Shift+ H. If I press the hotkey, nvda says: “Starting the talk.
For accepting talks mi am using the hotkey Ctrl + Shift + P.
Could you give me an advice, what can I do for hanging talk, please?
Sincerely
Jarek


message announced by NVDA

bering.p
 

Hi to all.
I am sharing with you an observation I made concerning the announcement of messages by NVDA and which may be the subject of a PR.

When the option "Report object descriptions" is disabled, NVDA does not speak the text in dialog boxes.
This is annoying when it comes to a message informing the user or questioning him.
For example:
- following a manual search for update request.
- when an add-on uses "gui.messageBox" to query the user.

In this case, it is necessary to read the contents of the dialog box using "NVDA + b".

I think that any message emitted by NVDA should be announced regardless of the state of activation of the option.
What do you think ?
And if you agree, please do the PR.

best regards.
Paul.


Re: loss of shortcut keys

Luke Davis
 

Don

That is the same as the issue I reported here:
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/11546

To date, nobody else has commented that they are experiencing the same thing.
If you could, please go there and leave a comment that you have this issue, including your NVDA and Windows versions.

Luke

On Fri, 22 Jan 2021, Don H wrote:

Running NVDA 2020.4 beta 4 on a Win 10 20h2 system.
Having a lot of issues with all the shortuct keys for NVDA not working. Only way to get them working again is to reload NVDA.


NVDA and hotkeys in Skype

Jarek.Krcmar
 

Hello all in the nvda group,
I have windows 10 64 bit and skype desktop.
I can’t hang up the talk with the key Ctrl + Shift+ H. If I press the hotkey, nvda says: “Starting the talk.
For accepting talks mi am using the hotkey Ctrl + Shift + P.
Could you give me an advice, what can I do for hanging talk, please?
Sincerely
Jarek


Re: NVDA Screen Review Mode

Gene
 

When you are  in screen review mode, you can move around the screen and not change your place where you are working, for example, in a word processor, you can move around and not change the position of the cursor where you are working.  Also, if you are somewhere where you can't move around using Windows commands such as up and down arrow, you can look at what is on the screen in review mode.  If an error message ccomes up, you can move around it using screen review.


Don't forget to always return to object navigation mode as soon ase you are finished working in review mode.  If you don't, you may get unexpected results.


Gene

On 1/23/2021 1:14 AM, Blind allday wrote:

I have read the user guide but it was a very brief overview of the Screen Review Mode.

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 10:32 PM Chris Smart <ve3rwj@...> wrote:

If you mean ObjectNAV, it's not that scary.


On 2021-01-22 8:56 p.m., Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Actually tha'ts not quite true. I use screen review on a lot of newer programs and activate things with the mouse. I use screen review to read the screen, route and click. I never if I can help it use object review.

Take care

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 22 Jan 2021, at 17:22, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

Ah, I see.

What you are describing is called “focus mode” where whatever key you press will be dealt not by NVDA but by the web application you are using. For example, pressing K while playing a YouTube video will pause the video if focus mode is on, whereas NVDA will move you to the next link if browse mode is active.

Screen review, on the other hand, will let you review the contents of an app’s window. For example, under older programs, activating screen review mode will let you see the contents of the app that aren’t accessible with keyboard commands. These days screen review would not work properly in newer apps but you can find out the contents of a window by doing an OCR (NVDA+R).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Blind allday
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2021 5:12 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Screen Review Mode

 

Well, I thought that screen review mode meant that a page allowed you to activate certain shortcuts that a page had.

For example, on YouTube you can press “K”  for it to pause and play.

 

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 4:49 PM Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:

Hi,

Can you tell us what you know about screen review? That way we can help you fill in the gap.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Blind allday
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2021 4:46 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] NVDA Screen Review Mode

 

Hello guys,

I think I am overthinking NVDA’s Screen Review Mode. Can someone explain it to me? Or point me  to where I can learn more about it.


Re: NVDA Screen Review Mode

Gene
 

I don't know what you mean by over thinking. Do you know the commands? I can discuss the desktop layout but I don't use or know the laptop layout commands. Have you used the JAWS cursor? Screen review is very similar except that the movement commands are different.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Smart
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2021 12:21 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Screen Review Mode



Have you tried the User Guide or the Basic Training module?





On 2021-01-22 7:45 p.m., Blind allday wrote:


Hello guys,

I think I am overthinking NVDA’s Screen Review Mode. Can someone explain it to me? Or point me to where I can learn more about it.


Re: Navigating A Web Page

Luke Davis
 

On Fri, 22 Jan 2021, Brian Vogel wrote:

I have no idea why you say it's an accessibility problem.  I just loaded that page with NVDA, and when the dialog appears NVDA begins reading it, and it's controls. 
In my case, in Brave, I think it started by reading "free unlimited access to radio, playlists and podcasts." At least, the first time I went there. Subsequent tab closings and re-openings, put me wherever I was last on the page, even if it is supposedly covered by that dialog. The latter must be some Brave feature.

That's what I'd expect to occur when the overlay occurs, and it does.  The screen reader is doing for its user exactly what my eyes do for me.
I beg to differ.

You have said several times that the dialog is an overlay. Your eyes tell you that the things it's overlaying can not be used until the dialog is acted upon.
Our ears do no such thing.

Assuming you land on that dialog when the page opens (which is not always the case), there is no indication at all that you are in a dialog. It appears to just be some marketing puffery that is part of the page text.
In fact, its headings (there seem to be two of them in the "dialog"), are reachable along with the page's other headings, with H/shift+H.

You can demonstrate this by continuing to use the down arrow, or the b key in browse mode, to move "beyond" the supposed dialog, to get to other parts of the page. Your mouse can't access those things (like the play button), from what you've said, but the screen reader can.

There is a reasonable presumption: that which can be reached, is meant to be reached.
We have no way of knowing that a sighted person can't reach those other parts of the page.

So no, I'm afraid the experience is not the same, and the screen reader is not providing the same information.

Once the underlying page is obscured by that overlay/modal dialog focus shifts to it and you are forced to interact with it.
In neither Firefox nor Brave, was the page ever obscured to NVDA in my tests.
In neither browser, was I ever "forced to interact with it".
I can easily move up and down, or by element shortcuts, between text in the dialog and things such as music categories, elements of the player, etc.
There is no indication whatever that it is a dialog; that it obscures or covers anything; or that it includes a required interaction.

This is exactly what it does if you're
sighted and interacting with the site using sight and point and click.
What you described is nothing like what I experienced in either browser there, so I can only agree with Sascha that it is an accessibility problem.

Or, there is an issue with the overlay comprehension in NVDA. In fact I vaguely remember a github issue about overlays not being correctly handled, but I can't now find it.

Luke


Re: NVDA Screen Review Mode

Blind allday
 

I have read the user guide but it was a very brief overview of the Screen Review Mode.

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 10:32 PM Chris Smart <ve3rwj@...> wrote:

If you mean ObjectNAV, it's not that scary.


On 2021-01-22 8:56 p.m., Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Actually tha'ts not quite true. I use screen review on a lot of newer programs and activate things with the mouse. I use screen review to read the screen, route and click. I never if I can help it use object review.

Take care

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 22 Jan 2021, at 17:22, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

Ah, I see.

What you are describing is called “focus mode” where whatever key you press will be dealt not by NVDA but by the web application you are using. For example, pressing K while playing a YouTube video will pause the video if focus mode is on, whereas NVDA will move you to the next link if browse mode is active.

Screen review, on the other hand, will let you review the contents of an app’s window. For example, under older programs, activating screen review mode will let you see the contents of the app that aren’t accessible with keyboard commands. These days screen review would not work properly in newer apps but you can find out the contents of a window by doing an OCR (NVDA+R).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Blind allday
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2021 5:12 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Screen Review Mode

 

Well, I thought that screen review mode meant that a page allowed you to activate certain shortcuts that a page had.

For example, on YouTube you can press “K”  for it to pause and play.

 

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 4:49 PM Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:

Hi,

Can you tell us what you know about screen review? That way we can help you fill in the gap.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Blind allday
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2021 4:46 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] NVDA Screen Review Mode

 

Hello guys,

I think I am overthinking NVDA’s Screen Review Mode. Can someone explain it to me? Or point me  to where I can learn more about it.


Re: NVDA Screen Review Mode

Chris Smart
 

If you mean ObjectNAV, it's not that scary.


On 2021-01-22 8:56 p.m., Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Actually tha'ts not quite true. I use screen review on a lot of newer programs and activate things with the mouse. I use screen review to read the screen, route and click. I never if I can help it use object review.

Take care

--

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website.

Check out my adventures with a shadow machine.

to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there.

For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 22 Jan 2021, at 17:22, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

Ah, I see.

What you are describing is called “focus mode” where whatever key you press will be dealt not by NVDA but by the web application you are using. For example, pressing K while playing a YouTube video will pause the video if focus mode is on, whereas NVDA will move you to the next link if browse mode is active.

Screen review, on the other hand, will let you review the contents of an app’s window. For example, under older programs, activating screen review mode will let you see the contents of the app that aren’t accessible with keyboard commands. These days screen review would not work properly in newer apps but you can find out the contents of a window by doing an OCR (NVDA+R).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Blind allday
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2021 5:12 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Screen Review Mode

 

Well, I thought that screen review mode meant that a page allowed you to activate certain shortcuts that a page had.

For example, on YouTube you can press “K”  for it to pause and play.

 

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 4:49 PM Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:

Hi,

Can you tell us what you know about screen review? That way we can help you fill in the gap.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Blind allday
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2021 4:46 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] NVDA Screen Review Mode

 

Hello guys,

I think I am overthinking NVDA’s Screen Review Mode. Can someone explain it to me? Or point me  to where I can learn more about it.


Re: NVDA Screen Review Mode

Chris Smart
 

Have you tried the User Guide or the Basic Training module?


On 2021-01-22 7:45 p.m., Blind allday wrote:

Hello guys,

I think I am overthinking NVDA’s Screen Review Mode. Can someone explain it to me? Or point me  to where I can learn more about it.


Community add-ons notice: add-ons to be reviewed by me must be written strictly in Python 3, effective February 1, 2021

 

Hello all,

Because I know that several add-on authors are members of NVDA users list and may or may not be part of NVDA Add-ons list, I’m writing this notice so resident add-on authors can be aware of changes taking place in add-on review process:

 

Effective February 1, 2021, any add-on authors seeking add-on review from me must write their add-ons in strict Python 3 mode.

 

Background: January 2020 marked end of life for Python 2. Since then, many projects have switched to Python 3, including NVDA with the release of 2019.3.

 

As a community add-ons reviewer, I didn’t really care about Python 2 and 3 compatibility for a while, knowing that add-ons may need to be written to support old and new NVDA releases. That window is coming to a close: effective February 1, 2021, any add-on to be reviewed by me must be written strictly in Python 3. This is so that the community can standardize on Python 3 from now on. I will make an exception if authors can demonstrate that parts of their add-on must be compatible with NVDA 2019.2.1 or earlier, and if so, I’ll keep that in mind as I review your add-ons.

 

Note that this policy deals with add-on reviews to be done by me – other community add-on reviewers may have their own policies about Python 3. But to help the community, I recommend moving to strict Python 3 development environment when writing add-ons.

 

Thanks.

Cheers,

Joseph

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