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Re: Tech VB podcast: In-depth interview with NVDA contributor Joseph Lee
Mário Navarro
thank you, great Joseph. cheers. Às 02:03 de 08/02/2021, Joseph Lee
escreveu:
-- A acção pode nem sempre ser felicidade, mas não há felicidade sem acção...
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Re: Thunderbird will become a webbased application - What about accessibility?
Mike Capelle <mcap1000@...>
I love whats app, I hate web based apps, I love my outlook 365, I do not believe that is web based.
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-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss Sent: Monday, February 8, 2021 12:00 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird will become a webbased application - What about accessibility? Well its becoming web based right now. Its why I like it. As to a full web application, unsure, I still use xbox insider legacy though I may have to opt out of xbox insider and then clear the xbox stuff from my system, the web based universal xbox has no sfx and while I can access it I don't like its layout. Generally elektron stuff works but it depends how its programmed of course. Skype is accessible, but I've never really gotten used to the interface and to be utterly honest with everyone I know on whats app and such I havn't needed to use it, in fact I am using zoom more, and these days I make sure important stuff goes to email. As for thunderbird becoming more inaccessible, as long as it keeps its interface I don't mind. Addons, yeah, if you rely on this for the quantom engine then yeah I have issue with that but I don't and never have ever needed those. I have the same love hate relationship with waterfox. They have tried to modernise it, but classic and g3 crash a lot on verious sites 20.08 just doesn't, with nvda interactions on my amd system, and it doesn't render some pages right like resilio, hp support and livejournal. According to its support reddit, a lot of people have been having issues with it and people are leaving in droves though maybe I just got the bad posts. Like in waterfox, I guess I could keep on an older version, version 52 no longer gets updates so if I need to I could drop back. Security would be the main thing as in wanterfox I have noscript, ublock, privacy badger and https everywhere so I am covered with passive addons, so security is not as important as it could have been. On the other side, if thunderbird version x stopped getting security certs then it would be like eudora and manual cert getting. However I wouldn't swet it yet. It will be a gradual thing most likely anyway thunderbird is slow on stable releases. We are up to 86 now on betas and stable is still 68.7.1, before the 68 series that was 60, and before 60 it was 52. So even if they do change if you are one of those like me that just wants to get email and duck everything and everyone else, then I wouldn't sweat it, they don't update their stables that fast. In fact when I was manually getting the latest stable they were still updating the previous one for a bit. It also seems that once they are done with the last stable version in a series they may or may not update you to the next stable. So in the end you choose a stable version you like and most likely won't get updates once its stopped. For example thunderbird 52.9.1 is the last pre quantom versions and they don't update to that. v 60 may update to 68 or 62 I am not sure. On 8/02/2021 11:37 pm, Christian Schoepplein wrote: Hi,
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Re: Thunderbird will become a webbased application - What about accessibility?
Gene
I've been making the same point for awhile. Some people still use Outlook Express. People still use Windows Live Mail.
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E-mail is not the way malware or malicious content is generally spread now. The interest is in human engineering, getting people to think an e-mail is from a trusted source and taking actions such as going to fraudulent and malicious web sites or opening attachments. Another way is malicious web sites or hacking advertising on web sites, reputable or not. Also, I don't recall ever seeing, on lists like this I've followed since about 1998, one report of someone being directly infected by opening an e-mail. Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Smart Sent: Monday, February 08, 2021 8:44 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird will become a webbased application - What about accessibility? Another thought: Why does anyone need to use the very latest version of Thunderbird, if an older one still works just fine? This is a ridiculous example, but I held on to Eudora 7 for almost a decade, and only switched to Thunderbird in the past year. Why? Because it still worked under Windows 10. Perhaps that won't be possible this time around, but other than security concerns, or the way email works being changed in a fundamental way, I can't see much changing in how we create, send, and receive email any time soon. Email is very very old. On 2021-02-08 5:37 a.m., Christian Schoepplein wrote: Hi,
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Re: Thunderbird will become a webbased application - What about accessibility?
Gene
It may be that the Thunderbird developers will do this, but I did a search and I found this being discussed as far back as 2017. Maybe they will finally do something like this, but I wonder if it is a topic that comes up now and then and may not be acted on, at least we don't know how long it may be.
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Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel Sent: Monday, February 08, 2021 8:43 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird will become a webbased application - What about accessibility? On Mon, Feb 8, 2021 at 05:37 AM, Christian Schoepplein wrote: I wonder what that means regarding to accessibility in Thunderbird- I can't imagine why, given Mozilla's track record, that anything they code would not be accessible (with the occasional bobble). The conventions for accessible web coding are very well known, and supported by every screen reader I'm aware of. It's not that web applications cannot be accessible, it's that many are not coded with any consideration given to accessibility. Provided any web coder is not determined to use "the very latest and greatest" new coding, which is far less likely on an email client than other things, I see no reason why it would not be entirely accessible. Only time will tell, though. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042 The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself. ~ Brian Vogel
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Re: Thunderbird will become a webbased application - What about accessibility?
Well its becoming web based right now.
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Its why I like it. As to a full web application, unsure, I still use xbox insider legacy though I may have to opt out of xbox insider and then clear the xbox stuff from my system, the web based universal xbox has no sfx and while I can access it I don't like its layout. Generally elektron stuff works but it depends how its programmed of course. Skype is accessible, but I've never really gotten used to the interface and to be utterly honest with everyone I know on whats app and such I havn't needed to use it, in fact I am using zoom more, and these days I make sure important stuff goes to email. As for thunderbird becoming more inaccessible, as long as it keeps its interface I don't mind. Addons, yeah, if you rely on this for the quantom engine then yeah I have issue with that but I don't and never have ever needed those. I have the same love hate relationship with waterfox. They have tried to modernise it, but classic and g3 crash a lot on verious sites 20.08 just doesn't, with nvda interactions on my amd system, and it doesn't render some pages right like resilio, hp support and livejournal. According to its support reddit, a lot of people have been having issues with it and people are leaving in droves though maybe I just got the bad posts. Like in waterfox, I guess I could keep on an older version, version 52 no longer gets updates so if I need to I could drop back. Security would be the main thing as in wanterfox I have noscript, ublock, privacy badger and https everywhere so I am covered with passive addons, so security is not as important as it could have been. On the other side, if thunderbird version x stopped getting security certs then it would be like eudora and manual cert getting. However I wouldn't swet it yet. It will be a gradual thing most likely anyway thunderbird is slow on stable releases. We are up to 86 now on betas and stable is still 68.7.1, before the 68 series that was 60, and before 60 it was 52. So even if they do change if you are one of those like me that just wants to get email and duck everything and everyone else, then I wouldn't sweat it, they don't update their stables that fast. In fact when I was manually getting the latest stable they were still updating the previous one for a bit. It also seems that once they are done with the last stable version in a series they may or may not update you to the next stable. So in the end you choose a stable version you like and most likely won't get updates once its stopped. For example thunderbird 52.9.1 is the last pre quantom versions and they don't update to that. v 60 may update to 68 or 62 I am not sure.
On 8/02/2021 11:37 pm, Christian Schoepplein wrote:
Hi,
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Re: Tech VB podcast: In-depth interview with NVDA contributor Joseph Lee
Hello Lauren,
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Try this direct link to a podcast file. Just paste this link into your browser's address bar, and actually it should start playing: https://www.techvb.net/wp-content/uploads/audio-uploads/joseph-lee-interview.mp3 Let me know about the result. If this will be unsuccessful, I'm sure will be able to find a suitable solution for you to listen this awesome podcast. Thanks. Best regards, Paulius 2021-02-08 14:10 GMT+02:00, Lauren Burger <laurenburger@msn.com>:
Hello. My name is Lauren. I am interested in the Tech VB podcast with the
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Re: Thunderbird will become a webbased application - What about accessibility?
On Mon, Feb 8, 2021 at 11:12 AM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
For me, it was much easier to use an email client rather than web-based email.- Which could change. I doubt that Thunderbird is going to "change everything" about its look and feel when it transitions to a webmail platform. Nothing is so constant as change, and nowhere is change more constant than in the world of computing. What things were, even a few months ago can, upon occasion, change radically, and sometimes for the better. Eventually I expect that the e-mail client as we've known it will disappear entirely. Not tomorrow, nor next week, nor even next year, but eventually. The direction of travel in applications is going more and more toward web-browser-based/web-based. There are many huge applications that aren't about the internet that are coded to run using a web browser as their main interface. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042 The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself. ~ Brian Vogel
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Add-on Updater 21.02.1, StationPlaylist 21.02
#addonrelease
Hello everyone, Two add-on updates are available (you can check for these updates through one of these):
As always, these updates can be checked from community add-ons website or through Add-on Updater. Cheers, Joseph
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Re: When will the next NVDA be released?
Rosemarie Chavarria
Amen, Brian. It’s better to wait for a stable release than to rush it and have problems with it.
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Monday, February 8, 2021 6:45 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] When will the next NVDA be released?
On Mon, Feb 8, 2021 at 05:35 AM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042 The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself. ~ Brian Vogel
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Re: Thunderbird will become a webbased application - What about accessibility?
As already stated, we'll see. I'd rather it would have been electron, as I kind of am used to the chromium-based way of doing my tasks, but we'll see in a few months time. I'm still using 78, as it never updated. Ok, now I'm using outlook and getting used to that, and TBird still lags a bit, but it over all is a quite good client. The settings dialogue seems a bit lacking in accessibility, but that might be because I’m not used to it yet. I only traverse that dialogue o once every few months.
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Actually, the developers do care somewhat about accessibility. We have reported many bugs and they have been fixed. Visit their bug tracker for more, and visit this list's archives for some proof. Or maybe look at the chat sub group nvda has had for a few months.
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf of Christian Schoepplein Sent: Monday, February 8, 2021 2:38 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] Thunderbird will become a webbased application - What about accessibility? Hi, regarding to a presentation at FOSDEM 2021 it is planned to make Thunderbird increasingly a webbased application based on Electron. I wonder what that means regarding to accessibility in Thunderbird in general and what other free graphical mailer will be available for Windows if Thunderbird might become inaccessible or at least very inefficient regarding to useability when it is a full webbased program. Is anyone in touch with the Thunderbird developers and can find out more about their plans and how much they will have accessibility in mind? I fear they do not care much about accessibility, so the next question is what can we do to bring this isue more into the public? It would be sad to lose the only free and good to use graphical mailer for Windows. AFAIK there are few alternatives left then, which is a real shame for such a central and important form of communication for blind people, especialy in this very challenging time :-(. Cheers, Schoepp
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Re: Thunderbird will become a webbased application - What about accessibility?
Rosemarie Chavarria
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From: Roger Stewart
Sent: Monday, February 8, 2021 7:25 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird will become a webbased application - What about accessibility?
Guess I'll be looking for another email program soon. Too bad as Thunderbird has worked great with nvda for many years. Roger
On 2/8/2021 5:40 AM, William wrote: > Oh, I am sad about this news. > > > Christian Schoepplein 於 8/2/2021 18:37 寫道: >> Hi, >> >> regarding to a presentation at FOSDEM 2021 it is planed to make >> Thunderbird more and more a webbased application based on Electron. >> >> I wonder what that means regarding to accessibility in Thunderbird in >> general and what other free graphical mailer will be available for >> Windows if Thunderbird might become inaccessible or at least very >> inefficient regarding to useability when it is a full webbased program. >> >> Is anyone in touch with the Thunderbird developers and can find out >> more about their plans and how much they will have accessibility in >> mind? >> >> I fear they do not care much about accessibility, so the next >> question is what can we do to bring this isue more into the public? >> >> It would be really sad to loose the only really free and good to use >> graphical mailer for Windows. AFAIK there are not much alternatives >> left then, which is a real shame for such a central and important >> form of communication for blind people, especialy in this very >> challenging times :-(. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Schoepp >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > .
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Re: Thunderbird will become a webbased application - What about accessibility?
Rosemarie Chavarria
I decided to switch to the mail app. Thunderbird did work well with NVDA. For me, it was much easier to use an email client rather than web-based email.
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: Hope Williamson
Sent: Monday, February 8, 2021 8:05 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird will become a webbased application - What about accessibility?
Well, most email can be done via the web anyway. I agree that Thunderbird is more efficient, but I didn't start using it until 2017. I used web-based interfaces from 2003 until then.
On 2/8/2021 6:46 AM, Chris Smart wrote: > True, and that is one reason why I eventually left Eudora. > > > > On 2021-02-08 9:45 a.m., zvonimir stanečić, 9a5dsz wrote: >> You need to have the newest versions nowadays, because of the security. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris Smart >> Sent: Monday, February 8, 2021 3:44 PM >> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io >> Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird will become a webbased application - >> What about accessibility? >> >> Another thought: >> >> Why does anyone need to use the very latest version of Thunderbird, >> if an older one still works just fine? >> >> >> This is a ridiculous example, but I held on to Eudora 7 for almost a >> decade, and only switched to Thunderbird in the past year. Why? Because >> it still worked under Windows 10. >> >> Perhaps that won't be possible this time around, but other than security >> concerns, or the way email works being changed in a fundamental way, I >> can't see much changing in how we create, send, and receive email any >> time soon. Email is very very old. >> >> >> On 2021-02-08 5:37 a.m., Christian Schoepplein wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> regarding to a presentation at FOSDEM 2021 it is planed to make >>> Thunderbird more and more a webbased application based on Electron. >>> >>> I wonder what that means regarding to accessibility in Thunderbird in >>> general and what other free graphical mailer will be available for >>> Windows if Thunderbird might become inaccessible or at least very >>> inefficient regarding to useability when it is a full webbased program. >>> >>> Is anyone in touch with the Thunderbird developers and can find out >>> more about their plans and how much they will have accessibility in >>> mind? >>> >>> I fear they do not care much about accessibility, so the next question >>> is what can we do to bring this isue more into the public? >>> >>> It would be really sad to loose the only really free and good to use >>> graphical mailer for Windows. AFAIK there are not much alternatives >>> left then, which is a real shame for such a central and important form >>> of communication for blind people, especialy in this very challenging >>> times :-(. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Schoepp >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > >
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Re: Thunderbird will become a webbased application - What about accessibility?
Hope Williamson
Well, most email can be done via the web anyway. I agree that
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Thunderbird is more efficient, but I didn't start using it until 2017. I used web-based interfaces from 2003 until then.
On 2/8/2021 6:46 AM, Chris Smart wrote:
True, and that is one reason why I eventually left Eudora.
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Re: Thunderbird will become a webbased application - What about accessibility?
Why not wait and see how things turn out?
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On 2021-02-08 10:25 a.m., Roger Stewart wrote:
Guess I'll be looking for another email program soon. Too bad as Thunderbird has worked great with nvda for many years.
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Re: Thunderbird will become a webbased application - What about accessibility?
Roger Stewart
Guess I'll be looking for another email program soon. Too bad as Thunderbird has worked great with nvda for many years.
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Roger
On 2/8/2021 5:40 AM, William wrote:
Oh, I am sad about this news.
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Re: Thunderbird will become a webbased application - What about accessibility?
On Mon, Feb 8, 2021 at 09:45 AM, zvonimir stanečić, 9a5dsz wrote:
You need to have the newest versions nowadays, because of the security.- I'd say that this is now the first and foremost reason to keep up-to-date on the latest releases of the software (including operating systems, and/or patches to same) that you use. This was not always the case, but things have definitely changed to make security a much more important consideration than it once was. The increase in frequency of hacking of all sorts has increased astronomically over time. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042 The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself. ~ Brian Vogel
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Re: Thunderbird will become a webbased application - What about accessibility?
True, and that is one reason why I eventually left Eudora.
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On 2021-02-08 9:45 a.m., zvonimir stanečić, 9a5dsz wrote:
You need to have the newest versions nowadays, because of the security.
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Re: When will the next NVDA be released?
On Mon, Feb 8, 2021 at 05:35 AM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
we'd alway rather push back a release and put out something which is stable, than push out something just to meet an arbitrary deadline.- A fact for which every blessed NVDA user should be eternally grateful!! This incredibly wise approach is something that's very seldom adhered to in the world of software, and to damaging results, not only for accessibility. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042 The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself. ~ Brian Vogel
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Re: Thunderbird will become a webbased application - What about accessibility?
zvonimir stanečić, 9a5dsz
You need to have the newest versions nowadays, because of the security.
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-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris Smart Sent: Monday, February 8, 2021 3:44 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird will become a webbased application - What about accessibility? Another thought: Why does anyone need to use the very latest version of Thunderbird, if an older one still works just fine? This is a ridiculous example, but I held on to Eudora 7 for almost a decade, and only switched to Thunderbird in the past year. Why? Because it still worked under Windows 10. Perhaps that won't be possible this time around, but other than security concerns, or the way email works being changed in a fundamental way, I can't see much changing in how we create, send, and receive email any time soon. Email is very very old. On 2021-02-08 5:37 a.m., Christian Schoepplein wrote: Hi,
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Re: Thunderbird will become a webbased application - What about accessibility?
Another thought:
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Why does anyone need to use the very latest version of Thunderbird, if an older one still works just fine? This is a ridiculous example, but I held on to Eudora 7 for almost a decade, and only switched to Thunderbird in the past year. Why? Because it still worked under Windows 10. Perhaps that won't be possible this time around, but other than security concerns, or the way email works being changed in a fundamental way, I can't see much changing in how we create, send, and receive email any time soon. Email is very very old.
On 2021-02-08 5:37 a.m., Christian Schoepplein wrote:
Hi,
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