Date   

Re: NVDA and Outlook messages

Gene
 

Also, are you using the Windows Essentials add-on? I have no idea if the add-on applies in this case, but I've seen in list discussions in the past, instances where a problem was solved by someone running it who hadn't before.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2021 9:34 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Outlook messages

On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 10:12 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
Headings are not exposed, certainly in the newsletter style Emails I both receive and write myself.-
As Gene has suggested, having actual examples to examine and work with is the only way this will ultimately be solved.

And this could be another of the many instances where (and this is not a criticism, it may not even be intentional, some tools are weird) if some non-standard way was used of coding the HTML, certain screen readers will handle "confusing situations" more gracefully. If the information is not "perfectly formatted" guesses have to be made, and depending on exactly how that's done one can end up with different results.

This is one of the main reasons for the old truism, "No matter what your favorite screen reader is, you need to have minimal proficiency with another, because there will be times where your favorite does not play well with something you need to access."

And none of the above is to say that there may not be an NVDA bug, but talking about this in the abstract, rather than testing with examples, is no way to determine that.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

~ Brian Vogel


Re: NVDA and Outlook messages

 

Steve,

           I can't say what someone may experience in Outlook (or any other email client) since I read from the web interface.  But the H command in browse mode is landing me exactly where you'd expect, on the lines you state are headings in that message, when I'm reading your message via the web interface.

           Others will have to report what is occurring in their respective email clients when in the message, as HTML formatted messages should be "browsable" just like a web page is, and the commands should work the same way.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: NVDA and Outlook messages

Steve Nutt
 

As it happens Brian, you’re right.  This must be something to do with some of the Emails I receive.  When I get another one, I will examine the HTML code and see if we can narrow it down.

 

Thanks.

 

All the best


Steve

 

--

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Hertfordshire

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T: +44(0)1438-742286

M: +44(0)7956-334938

F: +44(0)1438-759589

E: steve@...

W: https://www.comproom.co.uk

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: 11 February 2021 16:14
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Outlook messages

 

Hi Brian,

 

This is simple to illustrate.

 

This is a Heading Level 1.

This is not a heading.

This is a heading level 2.

This again is not a heading.

 

Now let’s post and see what NVDA makes of that.

 

All the best


Steve

--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

T: +44(0)1438-742286

M: +44(0)7956-334938

F: +44(0)1438-759589

E: steve@...

W: https://www.comproom.co.uk

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 11 February 2021 15:34
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Outlook messages

 

On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 10:12 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

Headings are not exposed, certainly in the newsletter style Emails I both receive and write myself.

-
As Gene has suggested, having actual examples to examine and work with is the only way this will ultimately be solved.

And this could be another of the many instances where (and this is not a criticism, it may not even be intentional, some tools are weird) if some non-standard way was used of coding the HTML, certain screen readers will handle "confusing situations" more gracefully.  If the information is not "perfectly formatted" guesses have to be made, and depending on exactly how that's done one can end up with different results.

This is one of the main reasons for the old truism, "No matter what your favorite screen reader is, you need to have minimal proficiency with another, because there will be times where your favorite does not play well with something you need to access."

And none of the above is to say that there may not be an NVDA bug, but talking about this in the abstract, rather than testing with examples, is no way to determine that.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: NVDA and Outlook messages

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Brian,

 

This is simple to illustrate.

 

This is a Heading Level 1.

This is not a heading.

This is a heading level 2.

This again is not a heading.

 

Now let’s post and see what NVDA makes of that.

 

All the best


Steve

--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

T: +44(0)1438-742286

M: +44(0)7956-334938

F: +44(0)1438-759589

E: steve@...

W: https://www.comproom.co.uk

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 11 February 2021 15:34
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Outlook messages

 

On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 10:12 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

Headings are not exposed, certainly in the newsletter style Emails I both receive and write myself.

-
As Gene has suggested, having actual examples to examine and work with is the only way this will ultimately be solved.

And this could be another of the many instances where (and this is not a criticism, it may not even be intentional, some tools are weird) if some non-standard way was used of coding the HTML, certain screen readers will handle "confusing situations" more gracefully.  If the information is not "perfectly formatted" guesses have to be made, and depending on exactly how that's done one can end up with different results.

This is one of the main reasons for the old truism, "No matter what your favorite screen reader is, you need to have minimal proficiency with another, because there will be times where your favorite does not play well with something you need to access."

And none of the above is to say that there may not be an NVDA bug, but talking about this in the abstract, rather than testing with examples, is no way to determine that.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: NVDA and Outlook messages

 

On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 10:12 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
Headings are not exposed, certainly in the newsletter style Emails I both receive and write myself.
-
As Gene has suggested, having actual examples to examine and work with is the only way this will ultimately be solved.

And this could be another of the many instances where (and this is not a criticism, it may not even be intentional, some tools are weird) if some non-standard way was used of coding the HTML, certain screen readers will handle "confusing situations" more gracefully.  If the information is not "perfectly formatted" guesses have to be made, and depending on exactly how that's done one can end up with different results.

This is one of the main reasons for the old truism, "No matter what your favorite screen reader is, you need to have minimal proficiency with another, because there will be times where your favorite does not play well with something you need to access."

And none of the above is to say that there may not be an NVDA bug, but talking about this in the abstract, rather than testing with examples, is no way to determine that.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: NVDA and Outlook messages

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Joseph,

 

I did try that, but it doesn’t work.

 

Headings are not exposed, certainly in the newsletter style Emails I both receive and write myself.

 

With Narrator though, it works perfectly.

 

All the best


Steve

 

--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

T: +44(0)1438-742286

M: +44(0)7956-334938

F: +44(0)1438-759589

E: steve@...

W: https://www.comproom.co.uk

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: 11 February 2021 08:54
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Outlook messages

 

Hi,

Try if Word+UIA combo works:

  1. Open NVDA menu/Preferences/Settings.
  2. Select “Advanced” panel.
  3. After checking “I understand” checkbox, check “Use UI Automation to access Microsoft Word document controls when available” checkbox and click OK.
  4. Try reading messages in Outlook. At this point NvDA will recognize Outlook messages as a UIA document.

 

Note that there are issues with UIA and Word document controls at the moment, but hopefully recent NVDA releases (including upcoming 2020.4) should improve things a bit.

At some point I’ll write a description of these advanced UIA settings (provided I need to explain more than what user guide does at the moment).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2021 12:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Outlook messages

 

Hi,

 

Again, I am already in browse mode.  I can see only links, not headings or other controls in Emails.  As I say, NVDA and Outlook is quite a poor experience at the moment I’d say.  I’m glad I found the Outlook add-on though, because it does give alt number access to header fields.  But try Outlook with Narrator and you’ll see how much better it is.

 

All the best


Steve

 

--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

T: +44(0)1438-742286

M: +44(0)7956-334938

F: +44(0)1438-759589

E: steve@...

W: https://www.comproom.co.uk

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Afik Souffir
Sent: 10 February 2021 20:48
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Outlook messages

 

 

Hi,

 

No, you don’t need UI automation to navigate by headings, links, etc.

Make sure that browse mode is active, when you are in email message, press caps lock and space.

Hopes this helps

 

Afik

 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Bob Cavanaugh <cavbob1993@...>
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2021 10:40:41 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Outlook messages

 

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is what the UI
Automation checkbox under advanced in settings is for. I can't
remember what it was I was reading recently when I decided to try to
navigate by heading just for the heck of it and it actually worked.
Outlook seems to be a program where using UI Automation is a must, as
this has solved most of my problems with it. I do, however, think NVDA
does need a bit of improvement in the following areas when working
with Outlook:
1. When changing navigation methods, NVDA is quite slow to respond in
emails containing lots of graphics. For instance, I've talked a lot
about emails I get from Groupon on this list. When navigating those in
Outlook, I usually use NVDA+down arrow to read initially, then stop
it, and use tab to navigate. In some of those emails though, tab just
presents unlabeled links though, so I have to use NVDA+down to read
again. When doing this, there's a half second or so delay between the
time I give the read command and the time it actually starts reading.
2. When deleting an email from your deleted items folder, NVDA
sometimes reads the subject line of the just deleted message instead
of the subject line of the message you're currently viewing. When
deleting a message from the Inbox or a saved folder, NVDA says nothing
until you give it another command.
3. As discussed a month or so ago on this list, with certain versions
of Outlook, you have to use your down arrow key to read a suggestion
when typing an address in the to field of an email.
Hope this helps, and hope someone can correct me if I have the name of
that checkbox wrong, but I think it's use UI Automation.

On 2/10/21, Steve Nutt <steve@...> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I am testing an Email marketing platform called EmailOctopus for use in my
> business.
>
>
>
> One thing I noticed about NVDA, having been a JAWS user for years, but now
> moving over more to NVDA, is that it doesn't render HTML Emails correctly.
>
>
>
> For example, you never see headings in Emails.  If I send myself a test
> message and read it in JAWS, I can jump with H to all the headings and know
> that the formatting is correct.  With NVDA, I just get No Next Heading.  In
> fact, all the formatting is completely shot.
>
>
>
> Is there any way we could get NVDA to render Outlook HTML messages as they
> should be rendered, with headings intact?
>
>
>
> Thanks for any help.
>
>
>
> All the best
>
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> --
>
> Computer Room Services
>
> 77 Exeter Close
>
> Stevenage
>
> Hertfordshire
>
> SG1 4PW
>
> T: +44(0)1438-742286
>
> M: +44(0)7956-334938
>
> F: +44(0)1438-759589
>
> E:  <mailto:steve@...> steve@...
>
> W:  <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.comproom.co.uk%2F&amp;data=04%7C01%7C%7Cc25863fcf0d540d4751708d8ce042583%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637485864492450005%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=kbNHa4LakBScbHTM6pE9CguvioRlQ354nquTFz6gR1o%3D&amp;reserved=0> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.comproom.co.uk%2F&amp;data=04%7C01%7C%7Cc25863fcf0d540d4751708d8ce042583%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637485864492459997%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=htyPmc3WcvVrhNtNzq7IVwcuq9Min3HGw7RC3rGYx0g%3D&amp;reserved=0
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



locked [SOLVED] Heavy problems with nvda_2020.4rc1 and Visual Studio 2019 latest

Yeti
 

Hi Joseph and All,

have you considered enabling selective UIA event
registration?

I just did it and it seams to fix my Problem.
Of course, I won't see what it's really worth until
tomorrow,
when I really work with it. For the moment, the
RC1 seems to run more smoothly with this setting than the
stable
2020.3 did.
Yesterday I worked with this setting, the RC1 and VS2019 all
day.

I didn't even have to restart the IDE, which used to be
necessary every 1..2..3 hours with the 2020.3.

Thanks again for the hint and NVDA in general.

Ad Astra

Yeti

And by the way:
Locking the original subject was not the best of all
possible options, because this answer belongs there and
nowhere else!


Re: NVDA and Outlook messages

Gene
 

The question is whether that is your experience or generalizable. The best way to test would be to, if messages aren't private, forward one or two people copies of messages or forward them to the list.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2021 2:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Outlook messages



Hi David,



I am using the same version, and I never see headings in any newsletter type Emails I see. But with JAWS and Narrator, and the same Emails, they work fine.



I have also tried fixing the Com registry files in case that was an issue.



All the best


Steve





--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

T: +44(0)1438-742286

M: +44(0)7956-334938

F: +44(0)1438-759589

E: steve@comproom.co.uk

W: https://www.comproom.co.uk







From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Goldfield
Sent: 10 February 2021 23:25
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Outlook messages





Hi, Steve.
In no way do I wish to invalidate your experiences with NVDA and Outlook. In some respects NVDA's access to Outlook messages could be improved. However, I just received an email newsletter from AIRA with headings separating each announcement. NVDA identified the headings as I would expect. How did you add headings to your test email? For reference I'm using Outlook 365 with RC 1 of NVDA 2020.4.



David Goldfield,Blindness Assistive Technology SpecialistJAWS Certified, 2019 WWW.DavidGoldfield.org

On 2/10/2021 6:25 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:



Hi all,



I am testing an Email marketing platform called EmailOctopus for use in my business.



One thing I noticed about NVDA, having been a JAWS user for years, but now moving over more to NVDA, is that it doesn’t render HTML Emails correctly.



For example, you never see headings in Emails. If I send myself a test message and read it in JAWS, I can jump with H to all the headings and know that the formatting is correct. With NVDA, I just get No Next Heading. In fact, all the formatting is completely shot.



Is there any way we could get NVDA to render Outlook HTML messages as they should be rendered, with headings intact?



Thanks for any help.



All the best


Steve



--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

T: +44(0)1438-742286

M: +44(0)7956-334938

F: +44(0)1438-759589

E: steve@comproom.co.uk

W: https://www.comproom.co.uk


Re: NVDA and Outlook messages

 

Hi,

Try if Word+UIA combo works:

  1. Open NVDA menu/Preferences/Settings.
  2. Select “Advanced” panel.
  3. After checking “I understand” checkbox, check “Use UI Automation to access Microsoft Word document controls when available” checkbox and click OK.
  4. Try reading messages in Outlook. At this point NvDA will recognize Outlook messages as a UIA document.

 

Note that there are issues with UIA and Word document controls at the moment, but hopefully recent NVDA releases (including upcoming 2020.4) should improve things a bit.

At some point I’ll write a description of these advanced UIA settings (provided I need to explain more than what user guide does at the moment).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2021 12:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Outlook messages

 

Hi,

 

Again, I am already in browse mode.  I can see only links, not headings or other controls in Emails.  As I say, NVDA and Outlook is quite a poor experience at the moment I’d say.  I’m glad I found the Outlook add-on though, because it does give alt number access to header fields.  But try Outlook with Narrator and you’ll see how much better it is.

 

All the best


Steve

 

--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

T: +44(0)1438-742286

M: +44(0)7956-334938

F: +44(0)1438-759589

E: steve@...

W: https://www.comproom.co.uk

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Afik Souffir
Sent: 10 February 2021 20:48
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Outlook messages

 

 

Hi,

 

No, you don’t need UI automation to navigate by headings, links, etc.

Make sure that browse mode is active, when you are in email message, press caps lock and space.

Hopes this helps

 

Afik

 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Bob Cavanaugh <cavbob1993@...>
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2021 10:40:41 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Outlook messages

 

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is what the UI
Automation checkbox under advanced in settings is for. I can't
remember what it was I was reading recently when I decided to try to
navigate by heading just for the heck of it and it actually worked.
Outlook seems to be a program where using UI Automation is a must, as
this has solved most of my problems with it. I do, however, think NVDA
does need a bit of improvement in the following areas when working
with Outlook:
1. When changing navigation methods, NVDA is quite slow to respond in
emails containing lots of graphics. For instance, I've talked a lot
about emails I get from Groupon on this list. When navigating those in
Outlook, I usually use NVDA+down arrow to read initially, then stop
it, and use tab to navigate. In some of those emails though, tab just
presents unlabeled links though, so I have to use NVDA+down to read
again. When doing this, there's a half second or so delay between the
time I give the read command and the time it actually starts reading.
2. When deleting an email from your deleted items folder, NVDA
sometimes reads the subject line of the just deleted message instead
of the subject line of the message you're currently viewing. When
deleting a message from the Inbox or a saved folder, NVDA says nothing
until you give it another command.
3. As discussed a month or so ago on this list, with certain versions
of Outlook, you have to use your down arrow key to read a suggestion
when typing an address in the to field of an email.
Hope this helps, and hope someone can correct me if I have the name of
that checkbox wrong, but I think it's use UI Automation.

On 2/10/21, Steve Nutt <steve@...> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I am testing an Email marketing platform called EmailOctopus for use in my
> business.
>
>
>
> One thing I noticed about NVDA, having been a JAWS user for years, but now
> moving over more to NVDA, is that it doesn't render HTML Emails correctly.
>
>
>
> For example, you never see headings in Emails.  If I send myself a test
> message and read it in JAWS, I can jump with H to all the headings and know
> that the formatting is correct.  With NVDA, I just get No Next Heading.  In
> fact, all the formatting is completely shot.
>
>
>
> Is there any way we could get NVDA to render Outlook HTML messages as they
> should be rendered, with headings intact?
>
>
>
> Thanks for any help.
>
>
>
> All the best
>
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> --
>
> Computer Room Services
>
> 77 Exeter Close
>
> Stevenage
>
> Hertfordshire
>
> SG1 4PW
>
> T: +44(0)1438-742286
>
> M: +44(0)7956-334938
>
> F: +44(0)1438-759589
>
> E:  <mailto:steve@...> steve@...
>
> W:  <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.comproom.co.uk%2F&amp;data=04%7C01%7C%7Cc25863fcf0d540d4751708d8ce042583%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637485864492450005%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=kbNHa4LakBScbHTM6pE9CguvioRlQ354nquTFz6gR1o%3D&amp;reserved=0> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.comproom.co.uk%2F&amp;data=04%7C01%7C%7Cc25863fcf0d540d4751708d8ce042583%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637485864492459997%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=htyPmc3WcvVrhNtNzq7IVwcuq9Min3HGw7RC3rGYx0g%3D&amp;reserved=0
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>




Re: NVDA and Outlook messages

Steve Nutt
 

Hi David,

 

I am using the same version, and I never see headings in any newsletter type Emails I see.  But with JAWS and Narrator, and the same Emails, they work fine.

 

I have also tried fixing the Com registry files in case that was an issue.

 

All the best


Steve

 

--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

T: +44(0)1438-742286

M: +44(0)7956-334938

F: +44(0)1438-759589

E: steve@...

W: https://www.comproom.co.uk

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Goldfield
Sent: 10 February 2021 23:25
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Outlook messages

 

Hi, Steve.
In no way do I wish to invalidate your experiences with NVDA and Outlook. In some respects NVDA's access to Outlook messages could be improved. However, I just received an email newsletter from AIRA with headings separating each announcement. NVDA identified the headings as I would expect. How did you add headings to your test email? For reference I'm using Outlook 365 with RC 1 of NVDA 2020.4.

David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
JAWS Certified, 2019
 
WWW.DavidGoldfield.org

On 2/10/2021 6:25 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

Hi all,

 

I am testing an Email marketing platform called EmailOctopus for use in my business.

 

One thing I noticed about NVDA, having been a JAWS user for years, but now moving over more to NVDA, is that it doesn’t render HTML Emails correctly.

 

For example, you never see headings in Emails.  If I send myself a test message and read it in JAWS, I can jump with H to all the headings and know that the formatting is correct.  With NVDA, I just get No Next Heading.  In fact, all the formatting is completely shot.

 

Is there any way we could get NVDA to render Outlook HTML messages as they should be rendered, with headings intact?

 

Thanks for any help.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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Re: NVDA and Outlook messages

Steve Nutt
 

Hi,

 

Again, I am already in browse mode.  I can see only links, not headings or other controls in Emails.  As I say, NVDA and Outlook is quite a poor experience at the moment I’d say.  I’m glad I found the Outlook add-on though, because it does give alt number access to header fields.  But try Outlook with Narrator and you’ll see how much better it is.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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Computer Room Services

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SG1 4PW

T: +44(0)1438-742286

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E: steve@...

W: https://www.comproom.co.uk

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Afik Souffir
Sent: 10 February 2021 20:48
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Outlook messages

 

 

Hi,

 

No, you don’t need UI automation to navigate by headings, links, etc.

Make sure that browse mode is active, when you are in email message, press caps lock and space.

Hopes this helps

 

Afik

 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Bob Cavanaugh <cavbob1993@...>
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2021 10:40:41 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Outlook messages

 

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is what the UI
Automation checkbox under advanced in settings is for. I can't
remember what it was I was reading recently when I decided to try to
navigate by heading just for the heck of it and it actually worked.
Outlook seems to be a program where using UI Automation is a must, as
this has solved most of my problems with it. I do, however, think NVDA
does need a bit of improvement in the following areas when working
with Outlook:
1. When changing navigation methods, NVDA is quite slow to respond in
emails containing lots of graphics. For instance, I've talked a lot
about emails I get from Groupon on this list. When navigating those in
Outlook, I usually use NVDA+down arrow to read initially, then stop
it, and use tab to navigate. In some of those emails though, tab just
presents unlabeled links though, so I have to use NVDA+down to read
again. When doing this, there's a half second or so delay between the
time I give the read command and the time it actually starts reading.
2. When deleting an email from your deleted items folder, NVDA
sometimes reads the subject line of the just deleted message instead
of the subject line of the message you're currently viewing. When
deleting a message from the Inbox or a saved folder, NVDA says nothing
until you give it another command.
3. As discussed a month or so ago on this list, with certain versions
of Outlook, you have to use your down arrow key to read a suggestion
when typing an address in the to field of an email.
Hope this helps, and hope someone can correct me if I have the name of
that checkbox wrong, but I think it's use UI Automation.

On 2/10/21, Steve Nutt <steve@...> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I am testing an Email marketing platform called EmailOctopus for use in my
> business.
>
>
>
> One thing I noticed about NVDA, having been a JAWS user for years, but now
> moving over more to NVDA, is that it doesn't render HTML Emails correctly.
>
>
>
> For example, you never see headings in Emails.  If I send myself a test
> message and read it in JAWS, I can jump with H to all the headings and know
> that the formatting is correct.  With NVDA, I just get No Next Heading.  In
> fact, all the formatting is completely shot.
>
>
>
> Is there any way we could get NVDA to render Outlook HTML messages as they
> should be rendered, with headings intact?
>
>
>
> Thanks for any help.
>
>
>
> All the best
>
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> --
>
> Computer Room Services
>
> 77 Exeter Close
>
> Stevenage
>
> Hertfordshire
>
> SG1 4PW
>
> T: +44(0)1438-742286
>
> M: +44(0)7956-334938
>
> F: +44(0)1438-759589
>
> E:  <mailto:steve@...> steve@...
>
> W:  <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.comproom.co.uk%2F&amp;data=04%7C01%7C%7Cc25863fcf0d540d4751708d8ce042583%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637485864492450005%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=kbNHa4LakBScbHTM6pE9CguvioRlQ354nquTFz6gR1o%3D&amp;reserved=0> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.comproom.co.uk%2F&amp;data=04%7C01%7C%7Cc25863fcf0d540d4751708d8ce042583%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637485864492459997%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=htyPmc3WcvVrhNtNzq7IVwcuq9Min3HGw7RC3rGYx0g%3D&amp;reserved=0
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>





Re: NVDA and Outlook messages

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Bob,

Unfortunately, that didn't work for me.

In fact, using Narrator is far more efficient recently with Outlook than NVDA is.

All the best

Steve

--
Computer Room Services
77 Exeter Close
Stevenage
Hertfordshire
SG1 4PW
T: +44(0)1438-742286
M: +44(0)7956-334938
F: +44(0)1438-759589
E: steve@comproom.co.uk
W: https://www.comproom.co.uk

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Cavanaugh
Sent: 10 February 2021 20:41
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Outlook messages

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is what the UI Automation checkbox under advanced in settings is for. I can't remember what it was I was reading recently when I decided to try to navigate by heading just for the heck of it and it actually worked.
Outlook seems to be a program where using UI Automation is a must, as this has solved most of my problems with it. I do, however, think NVDA does need a bit of improvement in the following areas when working with Outlook:
1. When changing navigation methods, NVDA is quite slow to respond in emails containing lots of graphics. For instance, I've talked a lot about emails I get from Groupon on this list. When navigating those in Outlook, I usually use NVDA+down arrow to read initially, then stop it, and use tab to navigate. In some of those emails though, tab just presents unlabeled links though, so I have to use NVDA+down to read again. When doing this, there's a half second or so delay between the time I give the read command and the time it actually starts reading.
2. When deleting an email from your deleted items folder, NVDA sometimes reads the subject line of the just deleted message instead of the subject line of the message you're currently viewing. When deleting a message from the Inbox or a saved folder, NVDA says nothing until you give it another command.
3. As discussed a month or so ago on this list, with certain versions of Outlook, you have to use your down arrow key to read a suggestion when typing an address in the to field of an email.
Hope this helps, and hope someone can correct me if I have the name of that checkbox wrong, but I think it's use UI Automation.

On 2/10/21, Steve Nutt <steve@comproom.co.uk> wrote:
Hi all,



I am testing an Email marketing platform called EmailOctopus for use
in my business.



One thing I noticed about NVDA, having been a JAWS user for years, but
now moving over more to NVDA, is that it doesn't render HTML Emails correctly.



For example, you never see headings in Emails. If I send myself a
test message and read it in JAWS, I can jump with H to all the
headings and know that the formatting is correct. With NVDA, I just
get No Next Heading. In fact, all the formatting is completely shot.



Is there any way we could get NVDA to render Outlook HTML messages as
they should be rendered, with headings intact?



Thanks for any help.



All the best


Steve



--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

T: +44(0)1438-742286

M: +44(0)7956-334938

F: +44(0)1438-759589

E: <mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk> steve@comproom.co.uk

W: <https://www.comproom.co.uk> https://www.comproom.co.uk









Re: NVDA and Kryterion

 

Hi jannet, I have not had experience with anything bar blackboard 6 but if you think you could use another tester, email me and we can chat.



On 11/02/2021 11:48 am, Janet Brandly wrote:

Hello all,

 

I have just received permission to try NVDA with Kryterion which is a global testing platform used by many educational institutions for their [program tests/exams. Until now, blind students needing to take exams through Kryterion either had to use an in-person reader or use a laptop especially provided for them with JAWS installed on it. Also, blind students have had to take tests at a specified testing center. Sighted students, on the other hand, are able to test at home and are proctered buy using a webcam. I understand that, this past summer, the NFB brought issues of unequal access to Kryterion forward ant the results were not satisfactory. If Kryterion can be used with NVDA, this will remove barriers to blind people who cannot afford, or don’t want to use JAWS. Has anyone else had similar experiences with Kryterion or other global testing platforms?

 

Janet


Re: Admin's Note: Moderator Feedback, Leaving List #adminnotice

Jackie
 
Edited

Yes, of course. I was only referring to moderators/owners being called out publicly while performing list administration duties.


Re: Admin's Note: Moderator Feedback, Leaving List #adminnotice

 

On Wed, Feb 10, 2021 at 10:40 PM, Jackie wrote:
I just think it's a matter of courtesy & respect not to call a list moderator &/or owner out in public
-
Absolutely, but I will note that this only applies when a moderator or owner is acting in that role and enforcing rules or setting expectations.

When we post new topics, or responses in ongoing topics, we as individuals deserve the same treatment as any other member.  No additional deference is asked for nor expected.

Any good moderator or group owner is able to understand the difference between being challenged for doing what they're supposed to be doing and being challenged about ideas, techniques, etc.  Our "special status" is strictly limited to when we are actively exercising our administrative roles.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 


Re: Admin's Note: Moderator Feedback, Leaving List #adminnotice

Michael Munn
 
Edited

On Wed, Feb 10, 2021 at 10:40 PM Jackie <abletec@...> wrote:
I just think it's a matter of courtesy & respect not to call a list moderator &/or owner out in public
-
100% agree with you sir
 

JAWS Certified, 2019

Member: Georgia Association of Blind Students National Federation of the Blind of Georgia  

www.nfbga.org

 

Member: National association of Blind Students National Federation of the Blind 

www.nfb.org

  Student of: Hadley Institute of the Blind 

www.hadley.edu


Re: Admin's Note: Moderator Feedback, Leaving List #adminnotice

Jackie
 
Edited

I just think it's a matter of courtesy & respect not to call a list moderator &/or owner out in public

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Re: Accessible Video Editor

William
 

Andrew

good luck.

If you just use ffmpeg, you do not have to learn python.

Because you just have to learn those ffmpeg command line arguement


Whereas if you want to start with moviepy, then you should start learning about python.

program-l is one of the mailing list that you can join to seek help in nacse you come across issue with python, though they may not be familiar with moviepy.





AKH AKH 於 11/2/2021 0:45 寫道:

Hi Brian


I appreciate your perspective. I'll get on with studying Python. Cheers.


Andrew


On 10/02/2021 16:33, Brian Vogel wrote:
Andrew,

I know nothing about moviepy or ffmpeg, specifically.  The observations I've made are general truisms.

Very often I've seen people set up plain text files with "skeleton commands" where they copy and paste those over and over and over again, tweaking the bits that need to be tweaked. If you do a lot of scripting, and repetitive scripting, no matter how you automate or semi-automate the process you're definitely not going to want to be typing everything out by hand every time.  You'll likely have to edit the template material after pasting it in, but once you're familiar with the various commands, their arguments, etc., that's quite easy.  It's the learning curve for any new piece of software, whether accessed via the command line or GUI, that's the hard part.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

~ Brian Vogel








Re: Accessible Video Editor

William
 

Hi,

This is a complex question that I could not answer in an easy way.

But I can put it this way,

if you can come up with a little script that trim your video into small parts, and combine themtogether in a final video,

you can reuse the same script in a later time, by simply changing the input video file name, and the value indicating the start and end of each trimed video.AKH 於 10/2/2021 21:04 寫道:

Hi William


Thanks. So does that mean I have to write code each time I want to mark the start and end of a video clip I want to cut and paste?


Andrew


On 10/02/2021 10:44, William wrote:
Hi,

I think you have two options.

1. download the ffmpeg and run the codes in cmd window.

you can learn all those codes from ffmpeg official site.


2. download python, learn python basic and download moviepy

moviepy do provide a not very comprehensive document on the web.




AKH AKH 於 10/2/2021 17:54 寫道:
Hi Luke and Brian


Sounds very useful. How do I loearn the code for basic trimming of video, please?

Keen to learn.

Andrew


On 10/02/2021 00:38, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 07:33 PM, William wrote:

Doing stuff like this through code,we donot have to deal with all those
inaccessible or problematic gui issues.
-
One of the great tragedies of the rise of the GUIs was the virtual disappearance of understanding and use of command line interfaces (or certain interpreted code interfaces) by a large number of computer users.

There are really times when a CLI is vastly superior to a GUI for doing certain things.  And they're generally as close to 100% accessible as you can get.

I commend you for mentioning one of these options, as what you say is true whether one has sight or does not.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

~ Brian Vogel














Re: Detecting misalignment in Microsoft Word tables

 

More detail on step one is needed.  Using the Insert Table command (ALT+N,T,I), what is in the combo box next to the radio button you've chosen for fixed width?

My guess is that you want a tidy table where the column width for a given column is that of the widest item in that column (provided you're not dealing with text that is very long), and the easiest way to get that is to choose Autofit to contents rather than fixed width.

After doing the above, you may still want or need to apply a table design to it so that you have things like header rows, banded color or shading for rows, etc., and that's done using the table design ribbon, ALT+JT.  Once you down arrow you are in the ribbon, and I can't get into all of the details of a given control group here because:

a) that's MS-Word, not NVDA.

b) you have to have explored around a bit to gain a bit of familiarity before it would mean anything.

If you have in-depth questions about formatting tables in MS-Word, regardless of the screen reader you're using, I'd ask that on the Microsoft Office Accessibility Discussion Group, which is dedicated to all things MS-Office and accessibility:

There are lots of folks who know MS-Word, and the other office suite programs, very well who are active there and can answer these kinds of questions and participate in the correct kind of "back and forth" to ask you the right questions so they can figure out what is, and is not, working in the technique(s) you're currently employing.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.

       ~ Brian Vogel

 

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