Date   

Re: [Solved] Activating the Mouse with NVDA

Gene
 

When I'm on a web page and I need to use something other than enter or space bar to try to get something to work, I try left click and activate object. If one doesn't work, the other may. Whatever the intent, you need to know both and know that one may work where the other doesn't.

Also, unless you know a command works in both layouts, you need to specify which keyboard layout you are giving a command for.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Luke Davis
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2021 5:38 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Activating the Mouse with NVDA

On Fri, 9 Apr 2021, Quentin Christensen wrote:

Mostly designed for use with object navigation (to get you where regular navigation keys like the arrows and tab can't get to), I must confess I haven't
looked at the technicalities of exactly how the behaviour differs, but great that it works as a solution here :)
Well, we won't know that until the OP tries it.

I still want him to test COM reg fix, and shift+enter, space, etc. as well.

Luke


Re: Find On Page

Rui Fontes
 

By the way, I normally read small PDF files in MS Edge...

NVDA+Control+F do not work on those files...


Rui Fontes


Às 04:15 de 09/04/2021, Luke Davis escreveu:

Hi Glenn, it's been quite a long time.

Yes, it takes you directly to the result, no dialog box.

As others have said, NVDA+control+f is what you want here.

However, since it seems you may have tried that (you said Control+insert+f, but that's the same thing if you have your insert key set as the NVDA key), some debugging steps:

First, do you have "enable browse mode on page load" checked, in the browse mode settings? You can reach the browse mode settings by pressing NVDA+control+b, then tabbing to the option.
If you don't, please check it, then press enter, and again try to do a search with NVDA+control+f.

Can you tell us what browser you are using?

Can you please give an example of a page you go to (so we can go there), and a term you search for to which you expect to be taken but aren't (so we can search for it)?

Luke


On Thu, 8 Apr 2021, Glenn / Lenny wrote:

I use control + F to find something on a web page or document with Jaws just fine, but that never works with NVDA.
I've tried insert + control F too and it does not work.
It seems to act as though it did the search, but it does not place me on the page at what I searched for.
In fact, this has never worked for me, I'm sure even before I ever installed any addons.
I just assumed over the years that maybe NVDA does not do this.
When it does work for someone, does it actually move the reading cursor to the spot, or does it say it found something and leave a dialog box open?
I don't know if NVDA has done that before, or if it was something else, but I'm expecting the reading cursor to go to the first instance of my search, as
Jaws does.



Re: [Solved] Activating the Mouse with NVDA

Luke Davis
 

On Fri, 9 Apr 2021, Quentin Christensen wrote:

Mostly designed for use with object navigation (to get you where regular navigation keys like the arrows and tab can't get to), I must confess I haven't
looked at the technicalities of exactly how the behaviour differs, but great that it works as a solution here :)
Well, we won't know that until the OP tries it.

I still want him to test COM reg fix, and shift+enter, space, etc. as well.

Luke


Re: [Solved] Activating the Mouse with NVDA

Quentin Christensen
 

Just for completeness, here is the relevant User Guide section: https://www.nvaccess.org/files/nvda/documentation/userGuide.html#ObjectNavigation

The keystroke to activate current navigator object is NVDA+numpad enter in desktop keyboard layout and NVDA+enter in laptop layout.

Mostly designed for use with object navigation (to get you where regular navigation keys like the arrows and tab can't get to), I must confess I haven't looked at the technicalities of exactly how the behaviour differs, but great that it works as a solution here :)

Quentin.

On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 6:12 PM Luke Davis <luke@...> wrote:
Ah. I so rarely use that layout that I sometimes forget its eccentricities.

On Thu, 8 Apr 2021, Jackie wrote:

> Luke, it's the "activate navigator object" key. Using the laptop
> layout, it's NVDA+enter.







--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Re: [Solved] Activating the Mouse with NVDA

Luke Davis
 

Ah. I so rarely use that layout that I sometimes forget its eccentricities.

On Thu, 8 Apr 2021, Jackie wrote:

Luke, it's the "activate navigator object" key. Using the laptop
layout, it's NVDA+enter.


Re: [Solved] Activating the Mouse with NVDA

Jackie
 

Luke, it's the "activate navigator object" key. Using the laptop
layout, it's NVDA+enter.

On 4/8/21, Luke Davis <luke@newanswertech.com> wrote:
On Thu, 8 Apr 2021, Jackie wrote:

NVDA+enter key seems to work quite well, David.
Really? Is that documented somewhere? Now, NVDA+numpad enter, I can
understand,
but the regular one?
Where does that work that just enter might not?

I don't doubt you, I've just never heard of it, and keyboard help has
nothing on
it.

Luke





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Re: [Solved] Activating the Mouse with NVDA

Luke Davis
 

On Thu, 8 Apr 2021, Jackie wrote:

NVDA+enter key seems to work quite well, David.
Really? Is that documented somewhere? Now, NVDA+numpad enter, I can understand, but the regular one?
Where does that work that just enter might not?

I don't doubt you, I've just never heard of it, and keyboard help has nothing on it.

Luke


Re: [Solved] Activating the Mouse with NVDA

Jackie
 

NVDA+enter key seems to work quite well, David.

On 4/8/21, David Russell <david.sonofhashem@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi NVDA,

I share the following link with you in the hope it may be helpful
alongside the NVDA command key list. I will try these at the brokerage
site, webull.com.
This site caters mostly to US residents.

How to Move the Mouse Cursor with the Keyboard in Windows
https://www.computerhope.com › ... › Keyboard Help
About this Result
Using keyboard shortcut — How to enable/disable Mouse Keys. Using
keyboard shortcut; In Windows 10; In Windows 8; In Windows 7, Vista,
or XP.

Thank you for your time and input: Luke, Brian, Gene.


David Russell





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Re: Find On Page

 

Hi,

Don’t worry – at least it gave us a chance to go deeper this time.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2021 8:31 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Find On Page

 

My apologies to Gene, Joseph, and Luke.  I read Bob's question, started my reply, walked away, and never reloaded to check to see what might have come between when I walked away and got back.  I've covered territory already covered previously.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them.  And then you destroy yourself.

       ~ Richard M. Nixon

 


Re: Find On Page

 

Hi,

I guess I need to go deeper into the layered design I mentioned in my last reply (the best person to explain the browser side of things is Marco Zehe from Mozilla Foundation):

To let NVDA navigate a website as though you are reading a document, NVDA employs what’s called a “tree interceptor”. A tree interceptor is a collection of elements that act like one large text area. Because a tree interceptor is a collection of elements and texts coming from these, it can include hundreds of different controls of varying roles (straight text, form fields, links, frames, web apps, video players, you name it). Using a tree to describe a complex control such as a web document is quite an interesting approach – after all, graphical user interface elements are organized like a tree or branches, with web documents consisting of a collection of smaller elements (and this is how HTML and ARIA coding is actually rendered on screen).

But tree interceptors are not enough. NVDA relies on three more materials to create a completely functioning browse mode implementation: virtual buffers, accessibility API’s, and a cursor manager (there are other elements involved, but these three are essential). Virtual buffers create building blocks for documents. Accessibility API’s and standards such as IAccessible and ARIA (Accessible Rich Internet Applications) enhance the “look and feel” of a browse mode document. Finally, cursor managers provide commands to move around the just created browse mode document.

The steps NVDA takes when creating a browse mode document are as follows:

  1. You start a web browser. NVDA can then load appropriate support modules based on the browser you are using.
  2. You open a new website.
  3. When NVDA detects that a new page is open, NVDA will either use API’s provided by the web browser to gather information about the just opened document (typically UIA browse mode implementations in Chromium Edge) or ask a DLL that ships with NVDA to gather info on the fly (Firefox is a good example of this).
  4. Whatever method is chosen, NVDA will read the document from top to bottom, constructing NVDA objects to represent elements found in the web document. At the same time, texts coming from these web elements are gathered into a single browse mode document (tree interceptor in some cases) to facilitate navigation, first letter commands, NVDA find, elements list and a whole host of features.

 

As for NVDA find command, NVDA will search text of the browse mode document (stored internally) and will place the cursor at the next occurrence of the searched term.

P.S. Marco, if you are here, may I ask if you can shed some light on browse mode/tree interceptor internals? I can speak of what NVDA does at the high level.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2021 8:27 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Find On Page

 

Bob,

          Before I start even trying to explain this, it would be helpful to know what browser or browsers you and Glenn are using and where either one of these finds is not working.

           I am going to try to make the distinction between a browser find and a screen reader find (and it doesn't matter whether it's JAWS or NVDA) as simple as I can.  I can assure you that I will be omitting scads of "under the hood" detail that someone far more knowledgeable about both browser internals and NVDA internals can delve in to if they so choose.

            A browser find focuses on what can be seen on a page that's a part of the page text.  That is generally limited to actual text as well as text used for click-through links and labels.  But text on controls, like buttons, checkboxes, etc., will very often not be found using a browser find.  Much of this depends on how sloppy the page coders have been about how certain controls are written and what's exposed to a browser find versus a screen reader find.  I also believe that a browser find does not examine the virtual cursor used by the screen reader while a screen reader find does just that.

             As a result, there can be differences in not only what can be found by either one, but exactly where the screen reader focus is after each is done.

             I tend to favor the screen reader find when someone's using a screen reader simply because it tends to find certain things that a browser find doesn't, and you more often have focus on the thing just found, consistently, with a screen reader find.

             I'm actually hoping someone with way more "under the hood" knowledge will chime in and probably bore some of us silly getting into the actual differences between how a browser find and screen reader find works and can explain the discrepancies not only in what each can find but in where focus lies after each.  I have never been able to come up with any precise way of describing what's different between the two.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them.  And then you destroy yourself.

       ~ Richard M. Nixon

 


Re: Speaking of Paragraph markers and special symbols in Microsoft Word.

Quentin Christensen
 

At the appropriate symbol / punctuation level, NVDA will read most punctuation.  Press NVDA+P to change punctuation level.  It does seem to work exactly the same in Word regardless of how show / hide non-printable characters / formatting symbols is set.  The main thing I noticed was that NVDA doesn't distinguish between a paragraph break (enter) and shift+enter, calling both simply "Carriage return".

If you can articulate what would be useful to have read which isn't now, I'd encourage you to create an issue on our tracker at: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 10:50 AM Deenadayalan Moodley <deenadayalan.moodley@...> wrote:

Hi all,

 

I am working on a rather detailed proofing of various documents and require the non-printable symbols to be spoken.  I have enabled this in Microsoft Word by <ctrl+shift+*> and ensure that the display options are checked in the options dialog.

 

I find that NVDA will not speak the paragraph markers or even the space markers.

 

I looked at the punctuation and symbols dialog and enabled the paragraph mark to always be sent to the speech synthesizer but, it will not speak.  Has anyone come across this issue and found a solution around it?

 

I tested with JFW and it is spoken and as I use NVDA as my primary screen reader, I would prefer to get this working instead having to switch screen readers just for this purpose.

 

Any ideas?Thanks.

 



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Re: Find On Page

 

My apologies to Gene, Joseph, and Luke.  I read Bob's question, started my reply, walked away, and never reloaded to check to see what might have come between when I walked away and got back.  I've covered territory already covered previously.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them.  And then you destroy yourself.

       ~ Richard M. Nixon

 


Re: Find On Page

 

Bob,

          Before I start even trying to explain this, it would be helpful to know what browser or browsers you and Glenn are using and where either one of these finds is not working.

           I am going to try to make the distinction between a browser find and a screen reader find (and it doesn't matter whether it's JAWS or NVDA) as simple as I can.  I can assure you that I will be omitting scads of "under the hood" detail that someone far more knowledgeable about both browser internals and NVDA internals can delve in to if they so choose.

            A browser find focuses on what can be seen on a page that's a part of the page text.  That is generally limited to actual text as well as text used for click-through links and labels.  But text on controls, like buttons, checkboxes, etc., will very often not be found using a browser find.  Much of this depends on how sloppy the page coders have been about how certain controls are written and what's exposed to a browser find versus a screen reader find.  I also believe that a browser find does not examine the virtual cursor used by the screen reader while a screen reader find does just that.

             As a result, there can be differences in not only what can be found by either one, but exactly where the screen reader focus is after each is done.

             I tend to favor the screen reader find when someone's using a screen reader simply because it tends to find certain things that a browser find doesn't, and you more often have focus on the thing just found, consistently, with a screen reader find.

             I'm actually hoping someone with way more "under the hood" knowledge will chime in and probably bore some of us silly getting into the actual differences between how a browser find and screen reader find works and can explain the discrepancies not only in what each can find but in where focus lies after each.  I have never been able to come up with any precise way of describing what's different between the two.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them.  And then you destroy yourself.

       ~ Richard M. Nixon

 


Re: Find On Page

Gene
 

JAWS reassigns that command to work with the virtual pc cursor. Window-eyes didn't use control f either. it used Control shift f.

Browsers have their own find command, usually control f. But the virtual PC cursor or browse mode is not using the browser find command because when you move through a page using the virtual pc cursor or browse mode, you are using a virtual cursor, there is no cursor on the actual page. A sighted person looks at the page and reads what is there. He doesn't move through a page with a cursor. He can scroll down, causing new text to appear on the screen, but there is no cursor. You don't need a cursor if you are just reading and aren't intended to edit anything. The reason you can move around a web page as though you were in a word processor is because the screen-reader simulates a cursor. If it didn't, you couldn't properly move in a web page to read what you want and skip what you want.

When you use the browser's find command, you are telling the virtual cursor to move to the find result.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Cavanaugh
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2021 9:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Find On Page

Brian,
What is the difference between browser find and NVDA find? It seems
odd to me that control+F does not work in NVDA as expected when I've
had no issues with it in any other screen reader. I would suggest a
change here, but I have no idea what would need to be changed.

On 4/8/21, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 8, 2021 at 09:52 PM, Gene wrote:


Control f is not the find command for NVDA. its control NVDA key f.
-
Indeed, but it appears the questioner has described using browser find
(CTRL+F) and NVDA Find (NVDA+CTRL+F) and neither is working as expected.
Why that would be, I cannot say, since browser find or NVDA find both work
for me (and many others) when either is used, depending on what, exactly one
is trying to do.

I have suggested trying: The Most Basic Troubleshooting Steps for Suspected
NVDA Issues ( https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/message/81494 )
as a starting point.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless
you hate them. And then you destroy yourself.

~ Richard M. Nixon






Re: update on Firefox with NVDA

Maria S
 

I would like to make the observation that whenever Firefox crashes or
NVDA starts acting sluggishly, restarting NVDA immediately calms the
situation down. I was having to restart my computer every day, and now
I can go back to doing it once or twice a week. You have to do it
quickly though, because if you wait too long after the crash the
computer grinds to a screeching halt.

Just some experiences, Maria

On 4/8/21, Bob Cavanaugh <cavbob1993@gmail.com> wrote:
Perhaps I should have explained better. My method was as follows:
Control+Alt+N to restart NVDA.
When that didn't work, I switched windows a few times, then in an
attempt to get things to work as expected, started closing Firefox
windows. It was around this time I thought my computer had frozen
which it has had a tendency to do lately, but before I decided to hard
reboot, I fired up Narrator and discovered that pressing Alt+F4 had in
fact been closing windows as expected, but NVDA must have crashed as
it quit speaking.

On 4/8/21, Luke Davis <luke@newanswertech.com> wrote:
On Thu, 8 Apr 2021, Bob Cavanaugh wrote:

around for a few minutes then crashed. I was only made aware of this
by firing up Narrator and discovering that I had been closing Firefox
windows all along.
Can you explain that more? To my knowledge, the key sequence to close
NVDA,
is
quite dissimilar to the one for closing Firefox windows.
I find your lack of specificity disturbing. :)

Luke











Re: Find On Page

Luke Davis
 

Hi Glenn, it's been quite a long time.

Yes, it takes you directly to the result, no dialog box.

As others have said, NVDA+control+f is what you want here.

However, since it seems you may have tried that (you said Control+insert+f, but that's the same thing if you have your insert key set as the NVDA key), some debugging steps:

First, do you have "enable browse mode on page load" checked, in the browse mode settings? You can reach the browse mode settings by pressing NVDA+control+b, then tabbing to the option.
If you don't, please check it, then press enter, and again try to do a search with NVDA+control+f.

Can you tell us what browser you are using?

Can you please give an example of a page you go to (so we can go there), and a term you search for to which you expect to be taken but aren't (so we can search for it)?

Luke

On Thu, 8 Apr 2021, Glenn / Lenny wrote:

I use control + F to find something on a web page or document with Jaws just fine, but that never works with NVDA.
I've tried insert + control F too and it does not work.
It seems to act as though it did the search, but it does not place me on the page at what I searched for.
In fact, this has never worked for me, I'm sure even before I ever installed any addons.
I just assumed over the years that maybe NVDA does not do this.
When it does work for someone, does it actually move the reading cursor to the spot, or does it say it found something and leave a dialog box open?
I don't know if NVDA has done that before, or if it was something else, but I'm expecting the reading cursor to go to the first instance of my search, as
Jaws does.


Re: Find On Page

 

Hi,
Control+NVDA+F is active whenever browse mode is active. This means find command will work on web browsers, some Microsoft Office applications, and in certain apps that supports browse mode functionality.
Whereas browser find (Control+F) will list search results and does not move browse mode cursor (at least in Edge), Control+NVDA+F works in conjunction with browse mode cursor and will actually move the cursor to the first character of a result. This mechanism is valid wherever browse mode is supported. Internally, NVDA find command is implemented as part of what's called a "cursor manager" - a facility where cursor movement in complex documents such as web documents are specified. On top of this, NVDA may add browse mode support, with app-specific customizations on top. How NVDA can support browse mode for many apps from a common core is beyond the scope of this list, but suffice to say that a layered design is employed, and that's what makes it possible to use NVDA find facility across apps.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Cavanaugh
Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2021 7:53 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Find On Page

Brian,
What is the difference between browser find and NVDA find? It seems odd to me that control+F does not work in NVDA as expected when I've had no issues with it in any other screen reader. I would suggest a change here, but I have no idea what would need to be changed.

On 4/8/21, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 8, 2021 at 09:52 PM, Gene wrote:


Control f is not the find command for NVDA. its control NVDA key f.
-
Indeed, but it appears the questioner has described using browser find
(CTRL+F) and NVDA Find (NVDA+CTRL+F) and neither is working as expected.
Why that would be, I cannot say, since browser find or NVDA find both
work for me (and many others) when either is used, depending on what,
exactly one is trying to do.

I have suggested trying: The Most Basic Troubleshooting Steps for
Suspected NVDA Issues ( https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/message/81494 )
as a starting point.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win
unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself.

~ Richard M. Nixon






Re: Find On Page

Bob Cavanaugh <cavbob1993@...>
 

Brian,
What is the difference between browser find and NVDA find? It seems
odd to me that control+F does not work in NVDA as expected when I've
had no issues with it in any other screen reader. I would suggest a
change here, but I have no idea what would need to be changed.

On 4/8/21, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 8, 2021 at 09:52 PM, Gene wrote:


Control f is not the find command for NVDA. its control NVDA key f.
-
Indeed, but it appears the questioner has described using browser find
(CTRL+F) and NVDA Find (NVDA+CTRL+F) and neither is working as expected.
Why that would be, I cannot say, since browser find or NVDA find both work
for me (and many others) when either is used, depending on what, exactly one
is trying to do.

I have suggested trying: The Most Basic Troubleshooting Steps for Suspected
NVDA Issues ( https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/message/81494 )
as a starting point.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless
you hate them. And then you destroy yourself.

~ Richard M. Nixon






Re: Find On Page

Gene
 

It would be interesting to know if the person has used more than one computer. the person said the problem has gone back for years. While I wouldn't think a computer problem would result in this behavior, it still would be good to know.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2021 9:02 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Find On Page

On Thu, Apr 8, 2021 at 09:52 PM, Gene wrote:
Control f is not the find command for NVDA. its control NVDA key f.-
Indeed, but it appears the questioner has described using browser find (CTRL+F) and NVDA Find (NVDA+CTRL+F) and neither is working as expected. Why that would be, I cannot say, since browser find or NVDA find both work for me (and many others) when either is used, depending on what, exactly one is trying to do.

I have suggested trying: The Most Basic Troubleshooting Steps for Suspected NVDA Issues
as a starting point.

--


Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself.

~ Richard M. Nixon


Re: Find On Page

 

On Thu, Apr 8, 2021 at 09:52 PM, Gene wrote:
Control f is not the find command for NVDA. its control NVDA key f.
-
Indeed, but it appears the questioner has described using browser find (CTRL+F) and NVDA Find (NVDA+CTRL+F) and neither is working as expected.  Why that would be, I cannot say, since browser find or NVDA find both work for me (and many others) when either is used, depending on what, exactly one is trying to do.

I have suggested trying:  The Most Basic Troubleshooting Steps for Suspected NVDA Issues
as a starting point.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them.  And then you destroy yourself.

       ~ Richard M. Nixon

 

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