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Re: Adding more add-ons to the core

Brian Vogel
 

On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 11:21 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Even though we are volunteers, I still think it is important for developers to listen to what users are saying.
-
Being a volunteer in many places, including here as moderator, I take volunteer commitments more seriously than paid ones (and I take those quite seriously, indeed) because they are commitments I chose.  They were not foist upon me by any outside forces, but by choice.  There's an honor element to that.

And that is not to say it's in any way dishonorable to recuse oneself from any volunteer positions when one's life circumstances or desires change.  But there is a right way, with some attempt to find someone to fill your shoes and show them the ropes where that's needed, and a wrong way, packing up one's proverbial toys and going home, to do that.  A graceful exit is best practice in virtually all circumstances, even in those where the urge to burn those bridges then blow them up, too, is strong.  Bad behavior tends to come back to bite you in the posterior.

And if you're developing software where the intended (not accidental, but intended) target demographic extends beyond yourself, it behooves you to listen to their feedback.  If you've developed something for yourself, and it serves your needs, but you pass it around for others to use that's an entirely different circumstance.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Yep.  Discipline.  Accountability.  Joy.  Fun.  Responsibility.

That's what life is about.  And in that order.

        ~ Liza Minnelli

 
Re: Problem with having Admin Rights under UAC when using NVDA Remote

Jelal Bairamoglou
 

I have checked this for both computers and does not work.
They all worked all the problem occurred after the remote upgrade.

On 19/7/2021 6:43 π.μ., George McCoy wrote:
I read, in the first iteration documentation that UaC works if both computers have NVDA set to speak at the logon screen. I have several clients whose systems are set up that way and I have no issues with UAC.


George
Re: Adding more add-ons to the core

Joseph Lee
 

Hi,

Hypothetically, it is possible - all that's needed is checking for and editing add-on manifests. However, I think it is far better to let add-on authors themselves show willingness to listen to users and do the work. Even though we are volunteers, I still think it is important for developers to listen to what users are saying.

Cheers,

Joseph
Re: Winamp add on?

Gene
 

Is there a new version of the add-on?  There was no such command many months ago, but I haven’t checked since then,  I suggest looking at the information about commands.  Perhaps things have changed.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2021 9:48 AM
Subject: [nvda] Winamp add on?
 
I've just noticed that for some reason, the play, pause and stop keys
aren't saying anything.  They were working for several days after
installing nvda 21.1, but yesterday they suddenly stopped speaking. Did
I hit some hidden key that turned them off?  Most of the other functions
like volume setting and elapsed and remaining time are speaking correctly.


Roger
Winamp add on?

Roger Stewart
 

I've just noticed that for some reason, the play, pause and stop keys aren't saying anything.  They were working for several days after installing nvda 21.1, but yesterday they suddenly stopped speaking. Did I hit some hidden key that turned them off?  Most of the other functions like volume setting and elapsed and remaining time are speaking correctly.


Roger
Re: Adding more add-ons to the core

Brian Vogel
 
Edited

On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 10:33 AM, Gene wrote:
A yearly disruption being what is expected, I submit that some systematic means be undertaken to determine what the most important and widely used add-ons are and that those functions be built into the core.
-
Not that I don't get what you're saying, and why, but in the final analysis it really doesn't matter where the functionality lies if there is a commitment to ongoing maintenance from its source.

It's become clear that, as far as add-ons go, creating one, even a great one, and then walking away without any transition plan means it's not going to last.  But, based upon some whisperings I've heard, the updates to how add-ons themselves are handled overall may ease this issue to a great extent.  I would simply hope that anyone who decides to leave their role as developer/maintainer of a given add on would do the responsible thing and seek out "the next generation maintainer" as part of their exit strategy.  But even if they don't, I suspect that the ability of someone else to pick up an abandoned add-on will be far less complicated than it has been in the past.

I suspect that things will be much as they are, with certain add-on functionality being integrated into the core over time, and what gets integrated will be carefully curated by the folks at NVAccess, just as has always been the case.  They're in the best position to know what can be integrated and when, and how.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Yep.  Discipline.  Accountability.  Joy.  Fun.  Responsibility.

That's what life is about.  And in that order.

        ~ Liza Minnelli

 
Re: Adding more add-ons to the core

David Griffith
 

Dear Joseph

 

Thanks for confirming the likely future issues and also for the incredible work you and others have delivered for us.

Again I don’t know if this is technically possible but would it not be a good idea to provide a  User option  of running an add- on update  routine  to update version numbers in manifest.ini   when we are likely to encounter the annual mass breakage of add-ons as you have described?

I think the logical code would be just find and replace, find version number and replace subsequent text?

I think I understand that amending the manifest in this  way would not be a cure all  for all add-ons and add-ons may well incorrectly report compatibility because of problems elsewhere in code requirements.

However with sufficient warnings for users taking this option it could at least rescue important functionality  for add-ons for a few more years.

I think we need to balance cutting edge with functionality.

Many of us are using older products with important access implications.  For example, I am using the Sapi 4 Eloquence provided by Kurzweil and I would hate to lose it as I consider it far better for my hearing than the purchased versions I also have. Mp3directCut is also long in the tooth but I know of no other free accessible alternative.

I know I can make time warps of portable versions but some security in an uncertain world of updates would reassure a lot of us I think.

David Griffith

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Joseph Lee
Sent: 19 July 2021 15:07
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Adding more add-ons to the core

 

Hi,

actually, backward compatibility breaks will be an annual thing, according to NV Access. The reason being to modernize NVDA, to keep up with technology and market conditions, and in case we move to newer Python and dependencies, to take advantage of features offered in newer releases.

For now modifying the manifest will suffice. But as I hinted in this thread, the next big thing for add-ons community is already in the works, and when that happens, add-on code itself must be modified. Specifically, a crucial part of many add-ons will receive a syntax update due to internal changes to how specific constants are represented, and as a result, the old way of doing things is going away next year. This change partly stems from a desire for NVDA to conform more closely with certain programming practices, namely using a more elegant way of displaying a collection of constants or flags called an enumeration (enum for short). Old NvDA releases could not take advantage of it as enumerations were not introduced until Python 3.4, so in a way, NVDA source code is still in the midst of a Python 3.7 transition ,although focused on modernizing things.

Making things a bit complicated is that Python developers decided that the programming language will receive annual updates. Ideally NVDA should be on Python 3.9 by now, but during the course of a brief experiment with Python 3.8 earlier this year, critical issues with speech synthesizer support (specifically, SAPI4 support) and Windows 7 and 8.x support were found that prevented us (NVDA contributors) from moving to newer Python releases (for now). At some point I expect NVDA to move onto newer Python releases to take advantage of speed and code improvements, which will once again break add-ons, and since it is very risky to break compatibility in every release, NV Access decided that the best thing was limit compatibility breaks like this to once a year.

As for Golden Cursor (mentioned in another message): the closest equivalent is mouse Keys with mouse tracking from NVDA turned on. This works best if you've enabled beeps to indicate mouse position.

To answer Ella's question about Add-on Updater becoming part of NVDA Core: when I created this add-on three years ago, I intended that it will be part of NVDA Core eventually. Although it is too early to say, a variation is being planned by NV Access (more on that later).

Cheers,

Joseph

 
Re: Adding more add-ons to the core

Gene
 

A yearly disruption being what is expected, I submit that some systematic means be undertaken to determine what the most important and widely used add-ons are and that those functions be built into the core.  I’m not saying that the add-on can be directly added, but the functionality can. 
 
I don’t use many add-ons but I expect that there is swome very important functionality that relies on ad-ons.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2021 9:07 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Adding more add-ons to the core
 

Hi,

actually, backward compatibility breaks will be an annual thing, according to NV Access. The reason being to modernize NVDA, to keep up with technology and market conditions, and in case we move to newer Python and dependencies, to take advantage of features offered in newer releases.

For now modifying the manifest will suffice. But as I hinted in this thread, the next big thing for add-ons community is already in the works, and when that happens, add-on code itself must be modified. Specifically, a crucial part of many add-ons will receive a syntax update due to internal changes to how specific constants are represented, and as a result, the old way of doing things is going away next year. This change partly stems from a desire for NVDA to conform more closely with certain programming practices, namely using a more elegant way of displaying a collection of constants or flags called an enumeration (enum for short). Old NvDA releases could not take advantage of it as enumerations were not introduced until Python 3.4, so in a way, NVDA source code is still in the midst of a Python 3.7 transition ,although focused on modernizing things.

Making things a bit complicated is that Python developers decided that the programming language will receive annual updates. Ideally NVDA should be on Python 3.9 by now, but during the course of a brief experiment with Python 3.8 earlier this year, critical issues with speech synthesizer support (specifically, SAPI4 support) and Windows 7 and 8.x support were found that prevented us (NVDA contributors) from moving to newer Python releases (for now). At some point I expect NVDA to move onto newer Python releases to take advantage of speed and code improvements, which will once again break add-ons, and since it is very risky to break compatibility in every release, NV Access decided that the best thing was limit compatibility breaks like this to once a year.

As for Golden Cursor (mentioned in another message): the closest equivalent is mouse Keys with mouse tracking from NVDA turned on. This works best if you've enabled beeps to indicate mouse position.

To answer Ella's question about Add-on Updater becoming part of NVDA Core: when I created this add-on three years ago, I intended that it will be part of NVDA Core eventually. Although it is too early to say, a variation is being planned by NV Access (more on that later).

Cheers,

Joseph
Re: Adding more add-ons to the core

Brian Vogel
 

On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 10:07 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
actually, backward compatibility breaks will be an annual thing, according to NV Access. The reason being to modernize NVDA, to keep up with technology and market conditions, and in case we move to newer Python and dependencies, to take advantage of features offered in newer releases.
-
I'm quoting this to support my own earlier statements about code shelf-life in general, as it's always been there, it just used to be longer (for a great many things).

One thing I notice over time is how many people make statements that indicate that backward compatibility should be of the utmost importance, whether they say that directly or not.  The reality is that trying to maintain anything even approaching perpetual backward compatibility is a sure way to the trash bin of history for any product, including NVDA.

The time is coming, and it's coming sooner than I think many believe, when backward compatibility with Windows 7 is going to have to break.  And there should be no problem with that, as Windows 7 will have been out of support for at least a couple of years by then.  But there are a number of users who still insist on sticking with Windows 7, and I'm telling them, now, that this is not a viable choice over the long term, and a very bad choice in the present.  If you are a Windows user, and intend to remain a Windows user, you must stick with the version(s) that Microsoft is supporting at any given point in time.  Right now that's Windows 8.1 and Windows 10, and will soon enough include Windows 11.  And the no-cost upgrade path from Windows 7 to Windows 10 still exists and works.  The need to keep up with the current operating system version for any OS ecosystem is vital; it's not just a Windows thing.  Those on Windows 7 need to transition, whether they'd prefer to or not.  Your preference, and mine, too, are irrelevant.

I am well aware of the financial constraints that face many users, and sympathize with them, but that's not going to change the big picture in any way.  In the computing world you have no choice but to keep up with "what works now, and will continue working," or fading away.  That's true of both end users and software producers as well.  Most of us would not buy, say, a car that was produced today that used what was state of the art technology for 1967.  Think in the same terms as far as computing goes, and shorten up the time frame into no more than a decade, at most.

If you are going to be in the world of computing, whether strictly as an end user or in any other capacity, you must accept that the pace of change is rapid, and the need to keep up with changes is not optional.  NVAccess is doing what it needs to do to remain viable in the marketplace.  If it does not, it will cease to exist.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Yep.  Discipline.  Accountability.  Joy.  Fun.  Responsibility.

That's what life is about.  And in that order.

        ~ Liza Minnelli

 
Re: Adding more add-ons to the core

Roger Stewart
 

I'll add Golden Cursor should also be added to the core as this is a function that most everyone can use to help get mouse control.
Roger

On 7/18/2021 11:05 PM, Jujube wrote:
I 100% agree with this proposal. I think adding some addons to the
core will make them more within reach, and we can of course keep
making new ones. Addons are a good way to add app specific
functionality, add extra features not crucial for absolutely everyone,
and test drive features and if they are used widely enough adding them
into the core shouldn't cause too many problems. For example, and this
is just my opinion, Addon updater deserves to be in the core since its
the backbone of keeping all other addons up to date, and some of the
Clipboard addons could be nice in core.

On 7/18/21, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
Off and on it is stated that an add-on will be added to the core. I don’t
recall this being discussed before, but since this is the second time in
perhaps two years or less that a lot or most add-ons have been made
incompatible, it raises the question if more should be added.

How often is this likely to happen and at what point are add-ons going to be
more likely to be lost through attrition if developers don’t want to keep
updating them? Perhaps more serious attention should be given to adding
more of them to the core.

I know the argument about keeping NVDA small but add-ons don’t take much
room and adding many of them to the core wouldn’t make the program bigger to
any extent that matters.

Gene







.
Re: Adding more add-ons to the core

Joseph Lee
 

Hi,

actually, backward compatibility breaks will be an annual thing, according to NV Access. The reason being to modernize NVDA, to keep up with technology and market conditions, and in case we move to newer Python and dependencies, to take advantage of features offered in newer releases.

For now modifying the manifest will suffice. But as I hinted in this thread, the next big thing for add-ons community is already in the works, and when that happens, add-on code itself must be modified. Specifically, a crucial part of many add-ons will receive a syntax update due to internal changes to how specific constants are represented, and as a result, the old way of doing things is going away next year. This change partly stems from a desire for NVDA to conform more closely with certain programming practices, namely using a more elegant way of displaying a collection of constants or flags called an enumeration (enum for short). Old NvDA releases could not take advantage of it as enumerations were not introduced until Python 3.4, so in a way, NVDA source code is still in the midst of a Python 3.7 transition ,although focused on modernizing things.

Making things a bit complicated is that Python developers decided that the programming language will receive annual updates. Ideally NVDA should be on Python 3.9 by now, but during the course of a brief experiment with Python 3.8 earlier this year, critical issues with speech synthesizer support (specifically, SAPI4 support) and Windows 7 and 8.x support were found that prevented us (NVDA contributors) from moving to newer Python releases (for now). At some point I expect NVDA to move onto newer Python releases to take advantage of speed and code improvements, which will once again break add-ons, and since it is very risky to break compatibility in every release, NV Access decided that the best thing was limit compatibility breaks like this to once a year.

As for Golden Cursor (mentioned in another message): the closest equivalent is mouse Keys with mouse tracking from NVDA turned on. This works best if you've enabled beeps to indicate mouse position.

To answer Ella's question about Add-on Updater becoming part of NVDA Core: when I created this add-on three years ago, I intended that it will be part of NVDA Core eventually. Although it is too early to say, a variation is being planned by NV Access (more on that later).

Cheers,

Joseph
Re: Adding more add-ons to the core

Brian Vogel
 

I will offer some observations as an end-user and as a former programmer (though not in Python nor for NVDA):

1.  We have seen a fairly constant integration of some add-on functions into the NVDA Core code over time.  Joseph has mentioned some of those and, I believe, that Add-On Updater, mentioned by Jujube, is already in the pipeline for integration into the NVDA core.  I'm sure Joseph can confirm/refute.

2. Even if the fix, now, happens to be just tweaking a manifest file (and I'm sure that's going to be true for a number of add-ons) those add-ons need to have maintainers, and human ones, because this will not always be the case.

3. The nature of the changes that have triggered the last two backward compatibility breaking NVDA releases do not strike me as being routine, and history pretty much bears that out.  That being said, we're moving more and more into the age of "[insert thing here] as a service," which means a development cycle that's substantially different than what had been the case for decades.  But that does not necessarily mean that underlying coding foundations will changed, and that's what happened in the backward compatibility breaking releases.

Even if a given add-on is a home-grown one, I think (and I hope) that there is going to be a requirement that these be released as open-source and with licensing such that if one were to become abandonware for any reason (and death of the developer is sometimes one of those) that there will be zero issue with someone, anyone, who's qualified and interested to pick up the torch and continue on.  But even if this is true I do expect that certain add-ons will pass out of existence on rare occasion.  Software, all software, has a finite shelf life "as issued" and much like a house needs to have constant, ongoing maintenance in order to keep from slowly falling apart.

Nothing is so constant as change, and nowhere is change so constant and rapid as in the world of computing and electronics.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Yep.  Discipline.  Accountability.  Joy.  Fun.  Responsibility.

That's what life is about.  And in that order.

        ~ Liza Minnelli

 
NVDA volume not adjustable in windows volume control

Casey Mathews
 

Hey all.

Right now in the volume control if I have NVDA set to sound mapper or headphones I am unable to adjust the volume in the volume control. When I do the volume for NVDA jumps back to 27%. This is 3% less than my normal audio in case that helps.

If I switch NVDA output to speakers I can then adjust the volume control.

I have disabled any volume add-ons and made sure that audio ducking is off.

I can adjust the volume in NVDA speech controls with no problem.

I am running NVDA 2021.1

Windows 10 21H1 (64-bit) build 19043.1110

 

 

Casey Mathews

WebFriendlyHelp.com: Makin’ your tech life easy!

 

 

 
Re: Adding more add-ons to the core

David Griffith
 

I too am just a User of code and have nothing to do with the construction of it.

However just as a User one of the celebrated  strengths of NVDA is it ability to include add-ons which add functionality to the lives of many.

Breaking these  add-ons compatibility is understandable with a major re-write as apparently happened last year but like others I have been disturbed at the repeated mass breakage which has appeared only months later, or so it seems to me.

I would appeal to have some consideration of how to prevent this becoming a routine annual  event as it will undoubtedly strip away important functionality over time.

I would ask that this consideration is given especially as apparently simply changing the date in the manifest.ini file  often resolves these issues , so it does not seem critical to my inexpert knowledge to NVDA that these add-ons be so ruthlessly excluded.

I have regained the addon for Mp3DirectCut,  for example, a program I use multiple times a week with NVDA just by replacing the current   NVDA  version number in the addon.

It seems unnecessarily using a sledgehammer to crack a nut to knock out a working addon simply because it does not report the current NVDA version number in its manifest.ini fie.

As a final suggestion could not a routine – even dare I say it an addon be created which simply updates the version number in an NVDA addon manifest.ini file so these addons recover for some users. I accept that users would have to be warned/advised that simply changing the manifest.ini may not provide full addon compatibility in all cases and may result in unpredictable  results. At least then however users would be able to make this decision rather than having the addon simply knocked out and excluded from their copy of NVDA.

 

David Griffith

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Gene
Sent: 19 July 2021 11:32
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Adding more add-ons to the core

 

I’m not sure if I understand everything you said properly.  I hope these comments are relevant, nonetheless.  

 

While I’m not advocating adding all sorts of add-ons to the core, I’m concerned that over time, increasing numbers of add-ons many people consider important may be lost as developers have to make them compatible time after time.  Do you have a guess about how often this might generally be necessary?  My recollection is that Firefox lost a lot of add-ons for this reason.

 

Perhaps my suggestion might be better phrased this way:

there are all sorts of demands on developers’ time and all sorts of competing needs or worthy and useful things that might be done.  If this isn’t being done, it might be of considerable value to assess which add-ons are the most important and how practical it would be to add them, or equivalent functionality, to the core.  It may be important to add the most important ones so they won’t be lost. 

 

I don’t use it, but I suspect Golden Cursor is such an add-on. 

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2021 9:22 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Adding more add-ons to the core

 

[Edited Message Follows]
[Reason: typo fix]

Hi,

I think it comes down more to the question of adding parts of add-ons rather than the entire add-on. Because add-ons derive their power from NVDA Core, it comes down to looking for changes between NvDA and add-ons themselves.

This task isn't easy for at least three reasons:

  1. As mentioned numerous times, the ability for an add-on to get itself running on recent NVDA releases depends on the attitude of add-on authors themselves. If authors are willing to keep up based on documentation from NvDA (namely what's new document and code samples coming from others in the development community), then add-ons will be updated.
  2. Different authors use different ways to express code. Although Zen of Python advises folks to strive for one solution, there are different ways to do things. For example, people can go through a list of records using either a for loop or a while loop, or if one gets into advanced mode, perhaps using container comprehensions (comprehensions come from functional programming; way advanced for the scope of this list, I'm afraid). There is a common coding standard NVDA contributors are expected to follow (such as using tabs to denote indentations), but not all add-on authors use this style (if they did, it will make life a lot easier, but folks have different ways to express themselves, and I think that should be respected).
  3. Add-ons patch things here and there. In some cases, add-ons would come with their own implementation of a core NVDA feature or two (the best known example is Remote Support add-on). If an add-on patches an NVDA feature or two that other add-ons rely on, it creates a situation where other add-ons you've got may not work properly. Although folks may think patching NVDA Core may help in getting add-on code to resemble NVDA code, it does not - rather, it makes it difficult to separate the differences between what is core versus add-on. For this reason, whenever I need to override some NvDA functionality, I always include a comment that helps me remember that I need to look for ways to not disturb other add-ons (Windows App Essentials is a good example of an add-on with such comments) and do my best to call NVDA feature itself in the end.

Here is a list of parts of add-ons that ended up in NVDA itself as far as I know (spoiler: this list includes current NVDA alpha builds):

  • Screen Curtain: originally devleoped by Leonard de Ruijter (formerly of Babbage), I packaged it into an add-on, knowing that NV Access, too was thinking about incorporating this feature into NVDA in the end. After months of public testing, it did become part of NVDA 2019.3.
  • Enhanced Aria: originally developed by Jose Manuel Delicado, the ARIA article landmark constatn became part of NVDA 2019.3.
  • Focus Highlight: originally developed by Takuya Nishimoto, most of its features (now known as Visual Highlight) became part of NVDA 2019.3.
  • Enhanced Touch Gestures: the following parts of my add-on became part of NVDA in recent releases: toggling touch support, mouse right click touch gesture (one finger tap and hold), and touch typing mode where you can toggle between lifting your finger or a double-tap to enter text via touch keyboard.
  • OCR: a different implementation is used on Windows 10 and 11 that has nothing to do with the recognition engine that originally shipped with the original add-on (OCR add-ons was originally developed by NV Access).
  • NV Speech Player: although not part of NvDA directly, the Edward voice is part of eSpeak NG that ships with NVDA 2021.1 (if I remember correctly).
  • Resource Monitor: I noted a few days ago that parts of at least two add-ons will be part of future NVDA releases, and one of them is Resource Monitor. Specifically, Windows release information internals is now part of NVDA (as of alpha builds), and for those reading NVDA source code, NVDA now has the ability to detect which Windows 10 or 11 release you are using via Windows Registry (this part came from Resource Monitor).
  • Windows oneCore voices: formerly known as Microsoft Mobile voices, this synthesizer was originally an add-on (developed by Tyler Spivey) before making its way to NVDA.
  • Windows App Essentials: over the years, many parts of this add-on (from me) were included in NVDA. These include modern keyboard facility (emoji panel/clipboard history/dictation/voice typing/hardware keyboard suggestions), announcing search suggestions if present, UIA notification event support, and countless small things here and there. In fact, parts of the add-on made their way to recent NVDA alpha snapshots, including Windows 11 detection and support.
  • Add-on Updater? Maybe... (behind the veil at this time)

As for the procedure I use in add-on development: I keep a close eye on changes in alpha and beta releases, and to some extent, NVDA pull requests that are being worked on by NV Access and contributors (including my own). As a result, at least for Windows App Essentials, it contains code that responds to latest NvDA alpha snapshots, including the next big thing for add-on authors to consider: control types refactor (I won't go into this change, but suffice to say that control types refactor (involving a syntax change) will affect many add-ons, and I have advised add-on authors to prepare their add-ons).

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Joseph

 
The last OK button during the Run COM Registration Fixing tool... and the creation of a portable version

Dejan Ristic
 

Hi,


When I created the portable version of NVDA, the last OK button didn't work correctly. It didn't do when I ran COM Registration Fixing tool..., either. When I pressed it after NVDA announced that the action was successful, NVDA focus was not returned to desktop, or an application I might be running. When I pressed NVDA and tab to see the focus, it said: NVDA unknown invisible focused.


I don't think that it is a fatal bug, but when the next NVDA version comes out, I may happen to face this issue and I'm afraid that the installation process may be incomplete because that last OK button makes NVDA stuck up in the mud. I can restart NVDA successfully when it happens, but I think that it is a good idea to let you know of this.


I may also provide you with a log if you wish me to, as well.


My operating system: Windows 7, 64 bit.

NVDA version: latest stable.

Note: This happens with a portable latest version, too.



Cheers,

Dejan


--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Re: Adding more add-ons to the core

Gene
 

I’m not sure if I understand everything you said properly.  I hope these comments are relevant, nonetheless.  
 
While I’m not advocating adding all sorts of add-ons to the core, I’m concerned that over time, increasing numbers of add-ons many people consider important may be lost as developers have to make them compatible time after time.  Do you have a guess about how often this might generally be necessary?  My recollection is that Firefox lost a lot of add-ons for this reason.
 
Perhaps my suggestion might be better phrased this way:
there are all sorts of demands on developers’ time and all sorts of competing needs or worthy and useful things that might be done.  If this isn’t being done, it might be of considerable value to assess which add-ons are the most important and how practical it would be to add them, or equivalent functionality, to the core.  It may be important to add the most important ones so they won’t be lost. 
 
I don’t use it, but I suspect Golden Cursor is such an add-on. 
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2021 9:22 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Adding more add-ons to the core
 

[Edited Message Follows]
[Reason: typo fix]

Hi,

I think it comes down more to the question of adding parts of add-ons rather than the entire add-on. Because add-ons derive their power from NVDA Core, it comes down to looking for changes between NvDA and add-ons themselves.

This task isn't easy for at least three reasons:

  1. As mentioned numerous times, the ability for an add-on to get itself running on recent NVDA releases depends on the attitude of add-on authors themselves. If authors are willing to keep up based on documentation from NvDA (namely what's new document and code samples coming from others in the development community), then add-ons will be updated.
  2. Different authors use different ways to express code. Although Zen of Python advises folks to strive for one solution, there are different ways to do things. For example, people can go through a list of records using either a for loop or a while loop, or if one gets into advanced mode, perhaps using container comprehensions (comprehensions come from functional programming; way advanced for the scope of this list, I'm afraid). There is a common coding standard NVDA contributors are expected to follow (such as using tabs to denote indentations), but not all add-on authors use this style (if they did, it will make life a lot easier, but folks have different ways to express themselves, and I think that should be respected).
  3. Add-ons patch things here and there. In some cases, add-ons would come with their own implementation of a core NVDA feature or two (the best known example is Remote Support add-on). If an add-on patches an NVDA feature or two that other add-ons rely on, it creates a situation where other add-ons you've got may not work properly. Although folks may think patching NVDA Core may help in getting add-on code to resemble NVDA code, it does not - rather, it makes it difficult to separate the differences between what is core versus add-on. For this reason, whenever I need to override some NvDA functionality, I always include a comment that helps me remember that I need to look for ways to not disturb other add-ons (Windows App Essentials is a good example of an add-on with such comments) and do my best to call NVDA feature itself in the end.

Here is a list of parts of add-ons that ended up in NVDA itself as far as I know (spoiler: this list includes current NVDA alpha builds):

  • Screen Curtain: originally devleoped by Leonard de Ruijter (formerly of Babbage), I packaged it into an add-on, knowing that NV Access, too was thinking about incorporating this feature into NVDA in the end. After months of public testing, it did become part of NVDA 2019.3.
  • Enhanced Aria: originally developed by Jose Manuel Delicado, the ARIA article landmark constatn became part of NVDA 2019.3.
  • Focus Highlight: originally developed by Takuya Nishimoto, most of its features (now known as Visual Highlight) became part of NVDA 2019.3.
  • Enhanced Touch Gestures: the following parts of my add-on became part of NVDA in recent releases: toggling touch support, mouse right click touch gesture (one finger tap and hold), and touch typing mode where you can toggle between lifting your finger or a double-tap to enter text via touch keyboard.
  • OCR: a different implementation is used on Windows 10 and 11 that has nothing to do with the recognition engine that originally shipped with the original add-on (OCR add-ons was originally developed by NV Access).
  • NV Speech Player: although not part of NvDA directly, the Edward voice is part of eSpeak NG that ships with NVDA 2021.1 (if I remember correctly).
  • Resource Monitor: I noted a few days ago that parts of at least two add-ons will be part of future NVDA releases, and one of them is Resource Monitor. Specifically, Windows release information internals is now part of NVDA (as of alpha builds), and for those reading NVDA source code, NVDA now has the ability to detect which Windows 10 or 11 release you are using via Windows Registry (this part came from Resource Monitor).
  • Windows oneCore voices: formerly known as Microsoft Mobile voices, this synthesizer was originally an add-on (developed by Tyler Spivey) before making its way to NVDA.
  • Windows App Essentials: over the years, many parts of this add-on (from me) were included in NVDA. These include modern keyboard facility (emoji panel/clipboard history/dictation/voice typing/hardware keyboard suggestions), announcing search suggestions if present, UIA notification event support, and countless small things here and there. In fact, parts of the add-on made their way to recent NVDA alpha snapshots, including Windows 11 detection and support.
  • Add-on Updater? Maybe... (behind the veil at this time)

As for the procedure I use in add-on development: I keep a close eye on changes in alpha and beta releases, and to some extent, NVDA pull requests that are being worked on by NV Access and contributors (including my own). As a result, at least for Windows App Essentials, it contains code that responds to latest NvDA alpha snapshots, including the next big thing for add-on authors to consider: control types refactor (I won't go into this change, but suffice to say that control types refactor (involving a syntax change) will affect many add-ons, and I have advised add-on authors to prepare their add-ons).

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Joseph
hello Nvda user's

( NAJAF . Naqvi )
 

HI! 
this is NVDA official group ??
Re: Adding more add-ons to the core

Jujube
 

I 100% agree with this proposal. I think adding some addons to the
core will make them more within reach, and we can of course keep
making new ones. Addons are a good way to add app specific
functionality, add extra features not crucial for absolutely everyone,
and test drive features and if they are used widely enough adding them
into the core shouldn't cause too many problems. For example, and this
is just my opinion, Addon updater deserves to be in the core since its
the backbone of keeping all other addons up to date, and some of the
Clipboard addons could be nice in core.

On 7/18/21, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
Off and on it is stated that an add-on will be added to the core. I don’t
recall this being discussed before, but since this is the second time in
perhaps two years or less that a lot or most add-ons have been made
incompatible, it raises the question if more should be added.

How often is this likely to happen and at what point are add-ons going to be
more likely to be lost through attrition if developers don’t want to keep
updating them? Perhaps more serious attention should be given to adding
more of them to the core.

I know the argument about keeping NVDA small but add-ons don’t take much
room and adding many of them to the core wouldn’t make the program bigger to
any extent that matters.

Gene
Re: Compatibility of EnhancedPhoneticReading AddOn?

Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Group,

I installed the modified and updated add on for this feature and it works great. In my old age, my hearing isn't so good and with this phonetics when moving by character, it really helps a lot.  In addition, I think I am going to post this to the Blind Hams list as a nice add on for NVDA  and reading amateur radio call signs (assuming I didn't get kicked off for being too uppity--there has been some intrigue there in the past few days and I haven't gotten any posts.)


On 7/18/2021 5:55 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
See also this message in the archive:  https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/message/16890 

NVDA has been able to do this natively, but not particularly easily if you're dealing with a lot of characters in succession.  But if it's a very occasional need, you may not even require the add-on.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Yep.  Discipline.  Accountability.  Joy.  Fun.  Responsibility.

That's what life is about.  And in that order.

        ~ Liza Minnelli

 


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Re: Problem with having Admin Rights under UAC when using NVDA Remote

George McCoy
 

I read, in the first iteration documentation that UaC works if both computers have NVDA set to speak at the logon screen. I have several clients whose systems are set up that way and I have no issues with UAC.


George
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