Date   

Re: Listbox option values are only accessible in focus mode

bestuiexperience
 

I see some advantages to announcing "clickable". In the example with the listbox it only says "clickable" when in browse mode because when the user is in focus mode, the control will automatically become activated as opposed to when in browse mode, the control needs first be activated before it can be used.



On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 6:23 PM Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 06:08 PM, Jonathan COHN wrote:
IMHO, whenever you encounter a screen reader saying "clickable", it means the web developer has not used ARIA to let the end user know the specific type of control you are working with and is therefore a failure of the Web Accessibility Guidelines. 
-
Can't disagree with you there.

I have never really understood, really, why even "clickable" is necessary or preferable for the vast majority of screen reader users beyond those who are absolute beginners with a computer.

At this stage in history I presume, regardless of visual status, that most computer users know exactly what it is that needs to be activated to cause an action to occur versus an edit box, which you just fill in.  Almost everything is "clickable" when it comes down to it: Links, buttons, dropdown lists, and the list goes on and on.  The need to "click" to make something happen is the rule, not the exception.

I seem to recall when "clickable" started to be announced, and it was only a couple of years ago unless I'm wrong (and I could be).  It always struck me as "auditory clutter" that's not telling most users anything they don't already know.

But this is another thing where I am quite sure others would argue, and vehemently, that I am crazy to say that.  It's another example of what I mean by defaults need to be chosen and defaults are not always to a given user's liking.  If you can tweak things to turn on/off announcement of things like "clickable" then I'm perfectly happy to learn how to do that.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


Re: Listbox option values are only accessible in focus mode

 

On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 06:08 PM, Jonathan COHN wrote:
IMHO, whenever you encounter a screen reader saying "clickable", it means the web developer has not used ARIA to let the end user know the specific type of control you are working with and is therefore a failure of the Web Accessibility Guidelines. 
-
Can't disagree with you there.

I have never really understood, really, why even "clickable" is necessary or preferable for the vast majority of screen reader users beyond those who are absolute beginners with a computer.

At this stage in history I presume, regardless of visual status, that most computer users know exactly what it is that needs to be activated to cause an action to occur versus an edit box, which you just fill in.  Almost everything is "clickable" when it comes down to it: Links, buttons, dropdown lists, and the list goes on and on.  The need to "click" to make something happen is the rule, not the exception.

I seem to recall when "clickable" started to be announced, and it was only a couple of years ago unless I'm wrong (and I could be).  It always struck me as "auditory clutter" that's not telling most users anything they don't already know.

But this is another thing where I am quite sure others would argue, and vehemently, that I am crazy to say that.  It's another example of what I mean by defaults need to be chosen and defaults are not always to a given user's liking.  If you can tweak things to turn on/off announcement of things like "clickable" then I'm perfectly happy to learn how to do that.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


Re: Listbox option values are only accessible in focus mode

Jonathan COHN
 

Well, IMHO, whenever you encounter a screen reader saying "clickable", it means the web developer has not used ARIA to let the end user know the specific type of control you are working with and is therefore a failure of the Web Accessibility Guidelines. 
Generally, if a piece of HTML code has a click action attached to it and it is not a native link or button or does not have a role attribute telling the screen reader it is something else (listbox, button, slider …) then NVDA will say clickable. This just lets the NVDA user know that sending a click action should cause something to happen. If one is lucky, there might be a aria-haspopup attribute and then NVDA should say popup menu or something close to that.


Jonathan 

On Aug 23, 2021, at 17:38, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

If you hear "clickable," and not only for listboxes, it means you have landed on and gained focus on a control that must be activated if you wish it to take the action it takes.

I cannot remember whether this is for everything, as buttons are such that one knows that one must click on it to activate it, so I don't think you get "clickable" there.

But, yes, hearing clickable means you have gained focus on a control, and that the control remains unactivated, which is what one would typically want and expect if you were trying to traverse a page and activating only those things you need to activate based upon precisely what it is you're trying to accomplish.  

You used Enter to activate the listbox, which expands the list of options and allows you to use up/down arrow to traverse them, and to hit enter again on the one you want to make it your selection.

I tend to "mix and match" Enter and Spacebar for activating controls, with Enter being favored by me, and Spacebar used if Enter fails, or vice versa.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


Re: Listbox option values are only accessible in focus mode

 

If you hear "clickable," and not only for listboxes, it means you have landed on and gained focus on a control that must be activated if you wish it to take the action it takes.

I cannot remember whether this is for everything, as buttons are such that one knows that one must click on it to activate it, so I don't think you get "clickable" there.

But, yes, hearing clickable means you have gained focus on a control, and that the control remains unactivated, which is what one would typically want and expect if you were trying to traverse a page and activating only those things you need to activate based upon precisely what it is you're trying to accomplish.  

You used Enter to activate the listbox, which expands the list of options and allows you to use up/down arrow to traverse them, and to hit enter again on the one you want to make it your selection.

I tend to "mix and match" Enter and Spacebar for activating controls, with Enter being favored by me, and Spacebar used if Enter fails, or vice versa.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


Re: Listbox option values are only accessible in focus mode

bestuiexperience
 

I hope I am understanding now... Please confirm. For the listbox, if the user hears "clickable" it means that they have gained focus, but they have not yet activated the list. Activating the list is required   to navigate the options. I was able to activate the list by pressing the Enter key while still in Browse mode, and that act of pressing the Enter key activated the listbox so that I was then able to navigate the options. Is this correct? That being said, if a screen reader hears "clickable", they know they must activate the control (by pressing the Enter key) in order to interact with it. Correct?


Re: Listbox option values are only accessible in focus mode

 

On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 04:05 PM, bestuiexperience wrote:
Just to be clear -- so you are saying that what I am describing should be well understood by the NVDA user (i.e., if they hear the word "clickable" for a listbox  it means they should switch to focus mode?
-
I don't get what the sticking point is.  Pretty much any control other than an edit box requires you to activate (AKA click on in generic Windows terminolog, which is in actuality a combination of select followed by activate) them before you get "the desired effect."  With a listbox the desired effect, once it has focus, is to expand the list and allow you to interact with it to make a selection.

The user is not manually changing modes in any conventional sense of a forced mode change.  You can't, ever, even in the sighted way of doing things, interact with a dropdown list/listbox without first clicking on it.  It's in the clicking that the interaction becomes active.

For a screen reader user gaining focus on something, and activating something, are two separate things.  Whereas for a point and click user the act of clicking once you've pointed to the thing you click is what makes gaining focus and activating the control occur via what is a single step, or sure feels like one.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


Re: Listbox option values are only accessible in focus mode

bestuiexperience
 

Just to be clear -- so you are saying that what I am describing should be well understood by the NVDA user (i.e., if they hear the word "clickable" for a listbox  it means they should switch to focus mode?


Re: Listbox option values are only accessible in focus mode

 

On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 03:34 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I think they should if they read the manuals etc. If not, well, they would have to go back to the documentation and learn.
-
Precisely.  

We repeatedly see that no matter what defaults may be, some don't like them and some don't understand them.  There is no solution to that other than to familiarize yourself with how your software works, regardless of how you go about doing that.

I've never found the way that NVDA handles dropdown boxes to be particularly difficult or counterintuitive.  And I've never seen anyone else question the behavior in the past.  [And this is not a criticism about having questioned it, just an observation.]
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


Re: Listbox option values are only accessible in focus mode

Sarah k Alawami
 

I think they should if they read the manuals etc. If not, well, they would have to go back to the documentation and learn.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of bestuiexperience
Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 11:36 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Listbox option values are only accessible in focus mode

 

There is an expand/collapse button which causes the listbox to expand/collapse. The listbox options are navigable using the arrow keys. The problem is NVDA does not automatically go into focus mode when the listbox is expanded. So if the user happened to be in browse mode they would hear the listbox name and the word list and the word clickable and the name of the first entry in the list. So my question is, would the typical NVDA user realize that they must switch to focus mode whenever they hear the word clickable?


Re: Don't Want To Hear nvda Say "menu item"

Sarah k Alawami
 

Can you do everything in focus mode? This might get rid of the menu problem.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2021 2:01 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Don't Want To Hear nvda Say "menu item"

 

John,

Since I don't have a Roku account, I can't explore whether there are any accessibility settings you may be able to turn on for this page.  I suspect if there are you will have a significantly "decluttered" experience.

Even the things being announced as menu items aren't really menu items in the conventional sense of the term, but I can see why they are designated as such since they're graphics showing the shows with play buttons associated with each and you are making a selection.  It's certainly a type of menu, but not a "menu as we all know them" menu.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


Re: Listbox option values are only accessible in focus mode

bestuiexperience
 

There is an expand/collapse button which causes the listbox to expand/collapse. The listbox options are navigable using the arrow keys. The problem is NVDA does not automatically go into focus mode when the listbox is expanded. So if the user happened to be in browse mode they would hear the listbox name and the word list and the word clickable and the name of the first entry in the list. So my question is, would the typical NVDA user realize that they must switch to focus mode whenever they hear the word clickable?


Re: NVDA-accessible accounting/tax prep software for businesses?

Richard B. McDonald
 

Hi Nolan!

For accounting software, I understand "Wave" (below) is accessible. Seemingly, the basic version is free.

https://www.waveapps.com/accounting

HTH,
Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nolan Darilek
Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 6:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] NVDA-accessible accounting/tax prep software for businesses?

Hey folks,


Last year I used TaxAct.com for a fairly non-complicated (single-member LLC taxed as S corporation filing 1120S) business tax situation. It was kind of a mess and overkill for what I needed, so this year I just filed the extension with them and now I'm looking for alternatives.


Does anyone here have a good, accessible, tax prep software or website recommendation that works well with NVDA? I'll be doing my own research as well, and I'm not asking individually if it supports specific tax situations. With these, though, you end up handing over and SSN or other identifying information before you can even get to the point where you're evaluating the software, and given that my data may have recently been subject to a T-mobile breach, I'm not super keen to spread it among
5-6 pieces of software I may not end up using. I'm almost tempted to figure out if I can fill out the forms electronically and submit them that way, since my situation is pretty much the least complicated arrangement you can have above just taking tax passthrough status.


Related: any good accounting software recommendations? QuickBooks Online is painful to the point that I can feel my blood pressure rising every time I get an email asking me to log in and attend to some task or other, even though it usually links me directly to the page I need.
Intuit is anything but intuitive where accessibility is involved. :)


Thanks.


Re: NVDA-accessible accounting/tax prep software for businesses?

Nimer Jaber
 

Hello Nolan,

I personally use H&R Block for my tax preparation. I file my own taxes, and find accessibility to work well. I've only used them for the basic tax prep as a single filer, but they seem to be pretty comprehensive, and they have the added perk of being able to connect with actual tax preparers should you decide that your tax situation is too complicated.

As for accounting software, Quickbooks xs the only one I know of, unless you are able to use something like moneytalks, a really old program I am not sure is even around anymore, and may not tie into other services very well.

Thanks.

On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 6:47 AM Nolan Darilek <nolan@...> wrote:
Hey folks,


Last year I used TaxAct.com for a fairly non-complicated (single-member
LLC taxed as S corporation filing 1120S) business tax situation. It was
kind of a mess and overkill for what I needed, so this year I just filed
the extension with them and now I'm looking for alternatives.


Does anyone here have a good, accessible, tax prep software or website
recommendation that works well with NVDA? I'll be doing my own research
as well, and I'm not asking individually if it supports specific tax
situations. With these, though, you end up handing over and SSN or other
identifying information before you can even get to the point where
you're evaluating the software, and given that my data may have recently
been subject to a T-mobile breach, I'm not super keen to spread it among
5-6 pieces of software I may not end up using. I'm almost tempted to
figure out if I can fill out the forms electronically and submit them
that way, since my situation is pretty much the least complicated
arrangement you can have above just taking tax passthrough status.


Related: any good accounting software recommendations? QuickBooks Online
is painful to the point that I can feel my blood pressure rising every
time I get an email asking me to log in and attend to some task or
other, even though it usually links me directly to the page I need.
Intuit is anything but intuitive where accessibility is involved. :)


Thanks.








--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

Thank you, and have a great day!


NVDA-accessible accounting/tax prep software for businesses?

Nolan Darilek
 

Hey folks,


Last year I used TaxAct.com for a fairly non-complicated (single-member LLC taxed as S corporation filing 1120S) business tax situation. It was kind of a mess and overkill for what I needed, so this year I just filed the extension with them and now I'm looking for alternatives.


Does anyone here have a good, accessible, tax prep software or website recommendation that works well with NVDA? I'll be doing my own research as well, and I'm not asking individually if it supports specific tax situations. With these, though, you end up handing over and SSN or other identifying information before you can even get to the point where you're evaluating the software, and given that my data may have recently been subject to a T-mobile breach, I'm not super keen to spread it among 5-6 pieces of software I may not end up using. I'm almost tempted to figure out if I can fill out the forms electronically and submit them that way, since my situation is pretty much the least complicated arrangement you can have above just taking tax passthrough status.


Related: any good accounting software recommendations? QuickBooks Online is painful to the point that I can feel my blood pressure rising every time I get an email asking me to log in and attend to some task or other, even though it usually links me directly to the page I need. Intuit is anything but intuitive where accessibility is involved. :)


Thanks.


Re: Listbox option values are only accessible in focus mode

 

Isn't what you describe the typical behavior?

When I land on a listbox it's not until I expand it that I can traverse the list of options, which is precisely what I'd expect.  If I were in browse mode and landed on a listbox NVDA should shift to focus mode when one expands (clicks on, whether literal or keyboard equivalent) the listbox.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


Listbox option values are only accessible in focus mode

bestuiexperience
 

I am working with a listbox from a UI library called downshift. It seems that with NVDA the user can only navigate the options with the cursor when in focus mode.
In browse mode, the options are not read out. I noticed that when in browse mode, before the list is announced NVDA says "clickable", but when already in focus mode it does not.
My question is would this announcement of "clickable" be enough to clue an NVDA user in that they must switch to focus mode in order to navigate the selections? 
Or should I provide them with some aria-describedby text advising them to switch to focus mode if they have trouble navigating and hearing the options.
Replacing this component, is unfortunately not an option at this time...


Re: Don't Want To Hear nvda Say "menu item"

 

John,

Since I don't have a Roku account, I can't explore whether there are any accessibility settings you may be able to turn on for this page.  I suspect if there are you will have a significantly "decluttered" experience.

Even the things being announced as menu items aren't really menu items in the conventional sense of the term, but I can see why they are designated as such since they're graphics showing the shows with play buttons associated with each and you are making a selection.  It's certainly a type of menu, but not a "menu as we all know them" menu.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

         ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

 


Don't Want To Hear nvda Say "menu item"

John Altmeyer
 

Hi,


To hear what I can't tolerate hearing, please visit the Roku Channel link below.  For me, it is tantamount to an audio challenge.


When navigating the menu, I am forced to use screen review. Otherwise, every up or down arrow announces "menu item", and I can't make out exactly what is in the text.


A solution is more than just a little bit appreciated.  As an aside, my hearing isn't the best due to tinnitus.


Teen Wolf

https://l.email1.roku.com/rts/go2.aspx?h=364633&tp=i-1NGB-I8-6dT-1yHpfP-1n-4c6q3-1c-1xtP1a-l6SBCBNIiq-cLFUn


Re: BrailleExtender demo/tutorial-regarding

Richard Wells
 

I found Dennis's work to be extremely helpful in understanding the
Braille Extender add-on.

On 8/22/2021 6:37 AM, dennis huckle wrote:
Hello,
Some time ago I wrote a short guide as a text file regarding navigating a pc with nvda and a focus braille display.
If you feel this may be of use come back off list
dwhuckle@virginmedia.com Kind regards,
Dennis huckle.


-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of hurrikennyandopo ...
Sent: 22 August 2021 05:12
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] BrailleExtender demo/tutorial-regarding

Hi Solomon


I am not aware of any audio tutorial for that add on. The closest you will get is the documentation for the braille extender add on by pressing the nvda key + letter N then arr-owing down to the add on then right to the documentation menu. After you go into it it should explain what the different parts do.


Gene nz

  .


the21/08/2021 2:54 pm, soloman s wrote:

Hello all,
Could someone share/direct me to a good resource for using
BrailleExtender NVDA Addon?
I prefer a good podcast/tutorial.
Thanks much in advance!







Re: BrailleExtender demo/tutorial-regarding

dennis huckle <denniswhuckle@...>
 

Hello,
Some time ago I wrote a short guide as a text file regarding navigating a pc with nvda and a focus braille display.
If you feel this may be of use come back off list
dwhuckle@virginmedia.com Kind regards,
Dennis huckle.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of hurrikennyandopo ...
Sent: 22 August 2021 05:12
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] BrailleExtender demo/tutorial-regarding

Hi Solomon


I am not aware of any audio tutorial for that add on. The closest you will get is the documentation for the braille extender add on by pressing the nvda key + letter N then arr-owing down to the add on then right to the documentation menu. After you go into it it should explain what the different parts do.


Gene nz

  .


the21/08/2021 2:54 pm, soloman s wrote:

Hello all,
Could someone share/direct me to a good resource for using
BrailleExtender NVDA Addon?
I prefer a good podcast/tutorial.
Thanks much in advance!

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