Date   

Re: Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

tim
 

Just means your clean, guess you need that many. hahahahah

i also use it every time i"m righting a email or word processor.

makes 2.

What you don't use it?

On 11/15/2021 10:16 AM, Gene wrote:
You are one person.  If you took three showers a day, that doesn’t mean it is common. 
 
Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 2:37 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key
 

I disagree with your assertion that caps lock is not commonly used. I use it a lot.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 12 November 2021 16:00
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

On Fri, Nov 12, 2021 at 08:19 AM, Gene wrote:

It would be an execution nightmare.  First, how does Windows know what your intent is?

-
It wouldn't be Windows determining the intent, but NVDA.

Ignoring sticky keys, which is a separate function of its own, when the CAPS LOCK key is used as a modifier key I cannot think of a time when that would not involve what would easily be "timeable" as a long-press or require CAPS LOCK along with another key (as it is the modifier).  A very quick single press of CAPS LOCK meant to be used as CAPS LOCK is something NVDA could likely detect and pass through because it would be a very quick strike.

Personally, I don't think this is really necessary as CAPS LOCK is not, generally speaking, a commonly used key, unlike shift.  On the rare occasions where you really want CAPS LOCK and it's being used as the NVDA modifier key a quick double press does not seem too difficult to accomplish.
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         ~ John F. Kennedy

 


Re: NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

Sarah k Alawami
 

Some browsers render things different per the instructions of the web devs, so both may be at fault here.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 9:01 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

 

Since Firefox sees the checkboxes, I don’t know that its valid to assume what the problem is and that it is improper design.  Also, there may be cases where you will hear explanatory text that accompanies a structure read if you tab into the structure rather than move to it in some other way.  I haven’t compared Chrome-based and not Chrome-based browsers in these cases but again, is this improper design or just the complexity of design?

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

From: Jackie

Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 10:55 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

 

Yeah well, I'm not trying to be obscene here, but it's because the web
designers didn't use checkboxes that expose themselves, or, perhaps to
put it just a bit more succinctly, expose their state. & it is a royal
pita, & it's not unique to NVDA, though having said thus, sometimes
Jaws actually allows labeling of these graphics, whereas NVDA doesn't.
& it's not an issue specific to Chrome, either. It's actually called a
"clickable element" as opposed to a checkbox. Sighted folks generally
cant distinguish these from standard checkboxes, but they sure create
problems for us.

On 11/15/21, Tyler Zahnke <programmer651@...> wrote:
> Hello NVDA community! Why does NVDA not read some checkboxes in Google
> Chrome? NVDA reads a lot of them, but some sites have a "remember me"
> checkbox on their login screen that just says "clickable"; when you
> press Enter where it says clickable, the box checks, but NVDA doesn't
> tell you this. I have seen websites that contain both accessible and
> inaccessible checkboxes, why is this? And several times (I have a
> memory of seeing this on the login screen of Palai), it doesn't read
> some of the checkboxes, such as "remember me", at all. It actually got
> to the point where I thought they had removed the checkbox from their
> site because it completely didn't read it, but users of other devices
> claimed they still saw the checkbox, but several of us Chrome and NVDA
> users noticed the missing checkbox. And as soon as I tried the same
> site with Firefox and NVDA, I saw the checkbox, but it said "remember
> me clickable" and therefore, though you could check and uncheck it,
> NVDA wouldn't tell you, while on Chrome, NVDA skips over the box. This
> was a problem with a website that I actually had to help out as far as
> accessibility; their site had some regular checkboxes on the form and
> screen readers could read it just fine, but then some checkboxes said
> "clickable" or didn't say anything at all, yet the Enter key worked on
> them but the screen reader didn't say. I've probably seen variations
> on this issue for a few years, some checkbox not displaying in Chrome.
> Often I would try it again with Firefox, and at least in the
> checkbox-related cases, it usually worked. And in the case of the
> website I helped make accessible, I even looked at the HTML for the
> checkboxes, and even the inaccessible checkboxes were still coded like
> checkboxes though they may have had some extra styling on them. So
> what's the deal with checkboxes?
>
>
>
>
>
>


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Re: Not reading the conversation on messenger.com

Sarah k Alawami
 

I use both facebook messenger on windows and on the phone. Both are very much accessible if you know how to use your screen reader's tools. I might do a podcast on it even though it's such a simple app, many people don't know how to use the appropriate modes to access some electron apps such as messenger.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of tim
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 9:01 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Not reading the conversation on messenger.com

I use it only on my phone.

Because its totally accessible.


On 11/14/2021 9:06 PM, Robert Mendoza wrote:
Not sure if anyone here uses messenger.com for website.
When navigating through the conversation list the NEDA does not
reading the name of certain person or group chat.
so to speak it was unlabelled.
Is there a way to mitigate this properly.






Re: Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

Sarah k Alawami
 

I mean I can press the capslock twice, but once would be much easier, and it would be less ware and tear on the keys IMHO.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 8:41 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

Exactly, why would you hold shift key down to do a fully capped word or sentence? Makes no sense to me.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: 15 November 2021 15:58
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

I also use it a lot to tag some of my videos as there are things that need all caps, and I’m  too lazy to hold down shift while typing KLAS to KMIA, or maybe I want to shout at someone on discord, Ok, maybe not. Lol!

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 12:38 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

I disagree with your assertion that caps lock is not commonly used. I use it a lot.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 12 November 2021 16:00
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

On Fri, Nov 12, 2021 at 08:19 AM, Gene wrote:

It would be an execution nightmare.  First, how does Windows know what your intent is?

-
It wouldn't be Windows determining the intent, but NVDA.

Ignoring sticky keys, which is a separate function of its own, when the CAPS LOCK key is used as a modifier key I cannot think of a time when that would not involve what would easily be "timeable" as a long-press or require CAPS LOCK along with another key (as it is the modifier).  A very quick single press of CAPS LOCK meant to be used as CAPS LOCK is something NVDA could likely detect and pass through because it would be a very quick strike.

Personally, I don't think this is really necessary as CAPS LOCK is not, generally speaking, a commonly used key, unlike shift.  On the rare occasions where you really want CAPS LOCK and it's being used as the NVDA modifier key a quick double press does not seem too difficult to accomplish.
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         ~ John F. Kennedy

 


Re: NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

Gene
 

Since Firefox sees the checkboxes, I don’t know that its valid to assume what the problem is and that it is improper design.  Also, there may be cases where you will hear explanatory text that accompanies a structure read if you tab into the structure rather than move to it in some other way.  I haven’t compared Chrome-based and not Chrome-based browsers in these cases but again, is this improper design or just the complexity of design?
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Jackie
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome
 
Yeah well, I'm not trying to be obscene here, but it's because the web
designers didn't use checkboxes that expose themselves, or, perhaps to
put it just a bit more succinctly, expose their state. & it is a royal
pita, & it's not unique to NVDA, though having said thus, sometimes
Jaws actually allows labeling of these graphics, whereas NVDA doesn't.
& it's not an issue specific to Chrome, either. It's actually called a
"clickable element" as opposed to a checkbox. Sighted folks generally
cant distinguish these from standard checkboxes, but they sure create
problems for us.

On 11/15/21, Tyler Zahnke <programmer651@...> wrote:
> Hello NVDA community! Why does NVDA not read some checkboxes in Google
> Chrome? NVDA reads a lot of them, but some sites have a "remember me"
> checkbox on their login screen that just says "clickable"; when you
> press Enter where it says clickable, the box checks, but NVDA doesn't
> tell you this. I have seen websites that contain both accessible and
> inaccessible checkboxes, why is this? And several times (I have a
> memory of seeing this on the login screen of Palai), it doesn't read
> some of the checkboxes, such as "remember me", at all. It actually got
> to the point where I thought they had removed the checkbox from their
> site because it completely didn't read it, but users of other devices
> claimed they still saw the checkbox, but several of us Chrome and NVDA
> users noticed the missing checkbox. And as soon as I tried the same
> site with Firefox and NVDA, I saw the checkbox, but it said "remember
> me clickable" and therefore, though you could check and uncheck it,
> NVDA wouldn't tell you, while on Chrome, NVDA skips over the box. This
> was a problem with a website that I actually had to help out as far as
> accessibility; their site had some regular checkboxes on the form and
> screen readers could read it just fine, but then some checkboxes said
> "clickable" or didn't say anything at all, yet the Enter key worked on
> them but the screen reader didn't say. I've probably seen variations
> on this issue for a few years, some checkbox not displaying in Chrome.
> Often I would try it again with Firefox, and at least in the
> checkbox-related cases, it usually worked. And in the case of the
> website I helped make accessible, I even looked at the HTML for the
> checkboxes, and even the inaccessible checkboxes were still coded like
> checkboxes though they may have had some extra styling on them. So
> what's the deal with checkboxes?
>
>
>
>
>
>


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Re: Not reading the conversation on messenger.com

tim
 

I use it only on my phone.

Because its totally accessible.

On 11/14/2021 9:06 PM, Robert Mendoza wrote:
Not sure if anyone here uses messenger.com for website.
When navigating through the conversation list the NEDA does not reading the name of certain person or group chat.
so to speak it was unlabelled.
Is there a way to mitigate this properly.





Re: NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

Sarah k Alawami
 

This would be the fault of the website builder. It would be best if you contacted them instead. It sometimes is much easier to have the web developer fix the issues.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tyler Zahnke
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 8:16 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

Hello NVDA community! Why does NVDA not read some checkboxes in Google Chrome? NVDA reads a lot of them, but some sites have a "remember me"
checkbox on their login screen that just says "clickable"; when you press Enter where it says clickable, the box checks, but NVDA doesn't tell you this. I have seen websites that contain both accessible and inaccessible checkboxes, why is this? And several times (I have a memory of seeing this on the login screen of Palai), it doesn't read some of the checkboxes, such as "remember me", at all. It actually got to the point where I thought they had removed the checkbox from their site because it completely didn't read it, but users of other devices claimed they still saw the checkbox, but several of us Chrome and NVDA users noticed the missing checkbox. And as soon as I tried the same site with Firefox and NVDA, I saw the checkbox, but it said "remember me clickable" and therefore, though you could check and uncheck it, NVDA wouldn't tell you, while on Chrome, NVDA skips over the box. This was a problem with a website that I actually had to help out as far as accessibility; their site had some regular checkboxes on the form and screen readers could read it just fine, but then some checkboxes said "clickable" or didn't say anything at all, yet the Enter key worked on them but the screen reader didn't say. I've probably seen variations on this issue for a few years, some checkbox not displaying in Chrome.
Often I would try it again with Firefox, and at least in the checkbox-related cases, it usually worked. And in the case of the website I helped make accessible, I even looked at the HTML for the checkboxes, and even the inaccessible checkboxes were still coded like checkboxes though they may have had some extra styling on them. So what's the deal with checkboxes?


Re: Unable to focus on zoom

Ali Colak
 

I've uninstalled and reinstalled zoom, and that worked.

On 11/15/21, Sim Kah Yong <simkahyong@...> wrote:
Hi, can you try pressing Control + Alternate + Shift and see if that
help you to focus back on Zoom.

On 10/11/2021 1:34 pm, Ali Colak wrote:
Hello,
Since last Friday, I have been having problems with zoom, where NVDA
is unable to focus on the zoom window. whether I open the aplication
itself or open a zoom meeting from a link. I thought it might be a
problem with the Beta version of NVDA, so I downgraded, but no luck.
The next option I can think of is reinstalling zoom, but before I do
that, anyone have any ideas?

Thanks









Re: NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

Jackie
 

Yeah well, I'm not trying to be obscene here, but it's because the web
designers didn't use checkboxes that expose themselves, or, perhaps to
put it just a bit more succinctly, expose their state. & it is a royal
pita, & it's not unique to NVDA, though having said thus, sometimes
Jaws actually allows labeling of these graphics, whereas NVDA doesn't.
& it's not an issue specific to Chrome, either. It's actually called a
"clickable element" as opposed to a checkbox. Sighted folks generally
cant distinguish these from standard checkboxes, but they sure create
problems for us.

On 11/15/21, Tyler Zahnke <programmer651@...> wrote:
Hello NVDA community! Why does NVDA not read some checkboxes in Google
Chrome? NVDA reads a lot of them, but some sites have a "remember me"
checkbox on their login screen that just says "clickable"; when you
press Enter where it says clickable, the box checks, but NVDA doesn't
tell you this. I have seen websites that contain both accessible and
inaccessible checkboxes, why is this? And several times (I have a
memory of seeing this on the login screen of Palai), it doesn't read
some of the checkboxes, such as "remember me", at all. It actually got
to the point where I thought they had removed the checkbox from their
site because it completely didn't read it, but users of other devices
claimed they still saw the checkbox, but several of us Chrome and NVDA
users noticed the missing checkbox. And as soon as I tried the same
site with Firefox and NVDA, I saw the checkbox, but it said "remember
me clickable" and therefore, though you could check and uncheck it,
NVDA wouldn't tell you, while on Chrome, NVDA skips over the box. This
was a problem with a website that I actually had to help out as far as
accessibility; their site had some regular checkboxes on the form and
screen readers could read it just fine, but then some checkboxes said
"clickable" or didn't say anything at all, yet the Enter key worked on
them but the screen reader didn't say. I've probably seen variations
on this issue for a few years, some checkbox not displaying in Chrome.
Often I would try it again with Firefox, and at least in the
checkbox-related cases, it usually worked. And in the case of the
website I helped make accessible, I even looked at the HTML for the
checkboxes, and even the inaccessible checkboxes were still coded like
checkboxes though they may have had some extra styling on them. So
what's the deal with checkboxes?





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Re: Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

Steve Nutt
 

I already have.

 

The caps lock’s main purpose is for you to type in full caps. If NVDA slows this ability down, even by a keystroke, it should be considered.

 

Again, Narrator is smart enough to know the difference between a press on its own, or a multiple press.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 15 November 2021 16:00
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

There are objective facts and opinions.  You are stating a fact.  You do this.  You have presented no evidence to support a generalization that a lot of people do what you do nor that they find pressing caps lock twice to be something they consider a problem or an inconvenience worth asking to be changed.  Nor have you presented arguments why these things might be the case.

 

I have no evidence either, in terms of that I haven’t taken a survey of a representative sample of NVDA members.  But it is just common sense, considering the purpose of the caps lock key that most people don’t use it much. 

 

Also, in all the years I’ve been on this list, I have never heard this complained of before.  Therefore, it is a good inductive conclusion that few people are bothered by the current way this is set up.

 

Gene

-----Origina Message-----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 9:33 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

But what makes anyone say it isn’t? Everyone’s experience is different.

 

I know loads of people who use the caps lock, both blind and not.

 

All the best


steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 15 November 2021 15:17
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

You are one person.  If you took three showers a day, that doesn’t mean it is common. 

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 2:37 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

I disagree with your assertion that caps lock is not commonly used. I use it a lot.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 12 November 2021 16:00
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

On Fri, Nov 12, 2021 at 08:19 AM, Gene wrote:

It would be an execution nightmare.  First, how does Windows know what your intent is?

-
It wouldn't be Windows determining the intent, but NVDA.

Ignoring sticky keys, which is a separate function of its own, when the CAPS LOCK key is used as a modifier key I cannot think of a time when that would not involve what would easily be "timeable" as a long-press or require CAPS LOCK along with another key (as it is the modifier).  A very quick single press of CAPS LOCK meant to be used as CAPS LOCK is something NVDA could likely detect and pass through because it would be a very quick strike.

Personally, I don't think this is really necessary as CAPS LOCK is not, generally speaking, a commonly used key, unlike shift.  On the rare occasions where you really want CAPS LOCK and it's being used as the NVDA modifier key a quick double press does not seem too difficult to accomplish.
--

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The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 


Re: Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

Steve Nutt
 

Exactly, why would you hold shift key down to do a fully capped word or sentence? Makes no sense to me.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: 15 November 2021 15:58
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

I also use it a lot to tag some of my videos as there are things that need all caps, and I’m  too lazy to hold down shift while typing KLAS to KMIA, or maybe I want to shout at someone on discord, Ok, maybe not. Lol!

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 12:38 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

I disagree with your assertion that caps lock is not commonly used. I use it a lot.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 12 November 2021 16:00
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

On Fri, Nov 12, 2021 at 08:19 AM, Gene wrote:

It would be an execution nightmare.  First, how does Windows know what your intent is?

-
It wouldn't be Windows determining the intent, but NVDA.

Ignoring sticky keys, which is a separate function of its own, when the CAPS LOCK key is used as a modifier key I cannot think of a time when that would not involve what would easily be "timeable" as a long-press or require CAPS LOCK along with another key (as it is the modifier).  A very quick single press of CAPS LOCK meant to be used as CAPS LOCK is something NVDA could likely detect and pass through because it would be a very quick strike.

Personally, I don't think this is really necessary as CAPS LOCK is not, generally speaking, a commonly used key, unlike shift.  On the rare occasions where you really want CAPS LOCK and it's being used as the NVDA modifier key a quick double press does not seem too difficult to accomplish.
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The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

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NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

Tyler Zahnke <programmer651@...>
 

Hello NVDA community! Why does NVDA not read some checkboxes in Google
Chrome? NVDA reads a lot of them, but some sites have a "remember me"
checkbox on their login screen that just says "clickable"; when you
press Enter where it says clickable, the box checks, but NVDA doesn't
tell you this. I have seen websites that contain both accessible and
inaccessible checkboxes, why is this? And several times (I have a
memory of seeing this on the login screen of Palai), it doesn't read
some of the checkboxes, such as "remember me", at all. It actually got
to the point where I thought they had removed the checkbox from their
site because it completely didn't read it, but users of other devices
claimed they still saw the checkbox, but several of us Chrome and NVDA
users noticed the missing checkbox. And as soon as I tried the same
site with Firefox and NVDA, I saw the checkbox, but it said "remember
me clickable" and therefore, though you could check and uncheck it,
NVDA wouldn't tell you, while on Chrome, NVDA skips over the box. This
was a problem with a website that I actually had to help out as far as
accessibility; their site had some regular checkboxes on the form and
screen readers could read it just fine, but then some checkboxes said
"clickable" or didn't say anything at all, yet the Enter key worked on
them but the screen reader didn't say. I've probably seen variations
on this issue for a few years, some checkbox not displaying in Chrome.
Often I would try it again with Firefox, and at least in the
checkbox-related cases, it usually worked. And in the case of the
website I helped make accessible, I even looked at the HTML for the
checkboxes, and even the inaccessible checkboxes were still coded like
checkboxes though they may have had some extra styling on them. So
what's the deal with checkboxes?


Re: Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

Sarah k Alawami
 

I actually have been bothered, but I figured this was the default of every screen reader, until I started using differen oss. It’s not really a big deal to me, nice to have but not necessary.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 8:00 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

There are objective facts and opinions.  You are stating a fact.  You do this.  You have presented no evidence to support a generalization that a lot of people do what you do nor that they find pressing caps lock twice to be something they consider a problem or an inconvenience worth asking to be changed.  Nor have you presented arguments why these things might be the case.

 

I have no evidence either, in terms of that I haven’t taken a survey of a representative sample of NVDA members.  But it is just common sense, considering the purpose of the caps lock key that most people don’t use it much. 

 

Also, in all the years I’ve been on this list, I have never heard this complained of before.  Therefore, it is a good inductive conclusion that few people are bothered by the current way this is set up.

 

Gene

-----Origina Message-----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 9:33 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

But what makes anyone say it isn’t? Everyone’s experience is different.

 

I know loads of people who use the caps lock, both blind and not.

 

All the best


steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 15 November 2021 15:17
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

You are one person.  If you took three showers a day, that doesn’t mean it is common. 

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 2:37 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

I disagree with your assertion that caps lock is not commonly used. I use it a lot.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 12 November 2021 16:00
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

On Fri, Nov 12, 2021 at 08:19 AM, Gene wrote:

It would be an execution nightmare.  First, how does Windows know what your intent is?

-
It wouldn't be Windows determining the intent, but NVDA.

Ignoring sticky keys, which is a separate function of its own, when the CAPS LOCK key is used as a modifier key I cannot think of a time when that would not involve what would easily be "timeable" as a long-press or require CAPS LOCK along with another key (as it is the modifier).  A very quick single press of CAPS LOCK meant to be used as CAPS LOCK is something NVDA could likely detect and pass through because it would be a very quick strike.

Personally, I don't think this is really necessary as CAPS LOCK is not, generally speaking, a commonly used key, unlike shift.  On the rare occasions where you really want CAPS LOCK and it's being used as the NVDA modifier key a quick double press does not seem too difficult to accomplish.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 


Re: control plus windows plus either left or right arrows

Sarah k Alawami
 

Also check to see if keys are stuck. Hit ctrl left and right, shft, left and right, alt  left then right, windows, capslock, then tab, in that order to make sure nothing is software stuck.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of John Isige
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 7:49 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] control plus windows plus either left or right arrows

 

Windows 11 might use them for something, but it doesn't move by word. I get silence but I was also out of the Thunderbird message window, or at least, NVDA didn't think it was in focus. I'd guess either an addon, or not all of the keys are being held down. It's really easy to do with triple keys like that. I tend to try to use one finger between them, e.g. alt-win, and hit them both at the same time, and sometimes, you just don't have a good enough hold on them.

 

On 11/15/2021 9:43 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Mike,

What NVDA Add-Ons are you using?  I just did a quick review of the Input Gestures dialog, and the NVDA Quick Commands, and neither indicates that CTRL + WinKey + arrow keys is assigned to anything by NVDA (unless I missed it, and that's possible).  This leads me to believe that this is likely a conflict caused by some add-on.

There are a finite number of keyboard shortcuts available, and triple-key-press ones are seldom used, even by Windows.  I suspect an add-on has snagged this and that's why you need to use pass-through (NVDA + F2) to get it to have its other default function in the application you're using.

It would help to know what application that is, and what the intended function of the WinKey + Alt + Left or Right Arrow key is in that application, too.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 


Re: Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

Gene
 

There are objective facts and opinions.  You are stating a fact.  You do this.  You have presented no evidence to support a generalization that a lot of people do what you do nor that they find pressing caps lock twice to be something they consider a problem or an inconvenience worth asking to be changed.  Nor have you presented arguments why these things might be the case.
 
I have no evidence either, in terms of that I haven’t taken a survey of a representative sample of NVDA members.  But it is just common sense, considering the purpose of the caps lock key that most people don’t use it much. 
 
Also, in all the years I’ve been on this list, I have never heard this complained of before.  Therefore, it is a good inductive conclusion that few people are bothered by the current way this is set up.
 
Gene
-----Origina Message-----

From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key
 

But what makes anyone say it isn’t? Everyone’s experience is different.

 

I know loads of people who use the caps lock, both blind and not.

 

All the best


steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 15 November 2021 15:17
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

You are one person.  If you took three showers a day, that doesn’t mean it is common. 

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 2:37 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

I disagree with your assertion that caps lock is not commonly used. I use it a lot.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 12 November 2021 16:00
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

On Fri, Nov 12, 2021 at 08:19 AM, Gene wrote:

It would be an execution nightmare.  First, how does Windows know what your intent is?

-
It wouldn't be Windows determining the intent, but NVDA.

Ignoring sticky keys, which is a separate function of its own, when the CAPS LOCK key is used as a modifier key I cannot think of a time when that would not involve what would easily be "timeable" as a long-press or require CAPS LOCK along with another key (as it is the modifier).  A very quick single press of CAPS LOCK meant to be used as CAPS LOCK is something NVDA could likely detect and pass through because it would be a very quick strike.

Personally, I don't think this is really necessary as CAPS LOCK is not, generally speaking, a commonly used key, unlike shift.  On the rare occasions where you really want CAPS LOCK and it's being used as the NVDA modifier key a quick double press does not seem too difficult to accomplish.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 


Re: Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

Sarah k Alawami
 

I also use it a lot to tag some of my videos as there are things that need all caps, and I’m  too lazy to hold down shift while typing KLAS to KMIA, or maybe I want to shout at someone on discord, Ok, maybe not. Lol!

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 12:38 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

I disagree with your assertion that caps lock is not commonly used. I use it a lot.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 12 November 2021 16:00
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

On Fri, Nov 12, 2021 at 08:19 AM, Gene wrote:

It would be an execution nightmare.  First, how does Windows know what your intent is?

-
It wouldn't be Windows determining the intent, but NVDA.

Ignoring sticky keys, which is a separate function of its own, when the CAPS LOCK key is used as a modifier key I cannot think of a time when that would not involve what would easily be "timeable" as a long-press or require CAPS LOCK along with another key (as it is the modifier).  A very quick single press of CAPS LOCK meant to be used as CAPS LOCK is something NVDA could likely detect and pass through because it would be a very quick strike.

Personally, I don't think this is really necessary as CAPS LOCK is not, generally speaking, a commonly used key, unlike shift.  On the rare occasions where you really want CAPS LOCK and it's being used as the NVDA modifier key a quick double press does not seem too difficult to accomplish.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 


Re: control plus windows plus either left or right arrows

Gene
 

Control windows left and right arrow does nothing in a document.  It is control left and right arrow that moves by word. 
 
It appears to me, that in general,     input help announces the function of a command when it is an NVDA specific command such as NVDA key t and doesn’t announce the purpose otherwise.  I found exceptions, being clipboard commands such as control c.  Down arrow is just announced as down arrow because it is nott an NVDA specific command. 
 
Others with more technical knowledge may wish to discuss if the behavior may be changed and how much work would be involved.  Another question is whether the work involved would justify the benefit. 
 
With the exception of clipboard commands, it appears that only NVDA specific commands can be changed in the gestures settings.  There are ways to change other commands but they are not done by NVDA.
 
The commands you are asking about are Windows commands and would need to be changed differently. 
 
When working in input gesture settings, you can filter by what something does such as current line, but you can’t search for a command such as NVDA t.
 
You don’t have to arrow through all the commands.  The gestures are organized in a tree view.  As you down arrow, you will hear dcategories.  When you get to a category you want to look at, right arrow on the name of the category to open it.  When finnished, when in the category or on the name, left arrow until it is closed or just go on looking down the rest of the categories and leave that one opened if you wish.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 9:16 AM
Subject: [nvda] control plus windows plus either left or right arrows
 

Hi guys:

 

I have a question regarding the use of control+windows+left and right arrows;

It looks like when using these keystrokes,

Nvda moves by word or something;

 

I also use these keys to switch between desktops;

When I go into nvda+1 help mode and hit those keys,

It says the keys but not their nvda function;

 

Is there a way in nvda’s gestures listing of keys for me to see what nvda is doing with those keys, and perhaps either change the keystrokes or turn them off altogether without having to arrow through all the gestures?

 

Currently, I have to hit nvda+f2 to bypass the next key each time I hit control+windows+left or right arrows?

 

Please advise as you like.

 

Mike M.

 

Mike mcglashon

Email: Michael.mcglashon@...

Ph: 618 783 9331

 


Re: control plus windows plus either left or right arrows

John Isige
 

Windows 11 might use them for something, but it doesn't move by word. I get silence but I was also out of the Thunderbird message window, or at least, NVDA didn't think it was in focus. I'd guess either an addon, or not all of the keys are being held down. It's really easy to do with triple keys like that. I tend to try to use one finger between them, e.g. alt-win, and hit them both at the same time, and sometimes, you just don't have a good enough hold on them.


On 11/15/2021 9:43 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Mike,

What NVDA Add-Ons are you using?  I just did a quick review of the Input Gestures dialog, and the NVDA Quick Commands, and neither indicates that CTRL + WinKey + arrow keys is assigned to anything by NVDA (unless I missed it, and that's possible).  This leads me to believe that this is likely a conflict caused by some add-on.

There are a finite number of keyboard shortcuts available, and triple-key-press ones are seldom used, even by Windows.  I suspect an add-on has snagged this and that's why you need to use pass-through (NVDA + F2) to get it to have its other default function in the application you're using.

It would help to know what application that is, and what the intended function of the WinKey + Alt + Left or Right Arrow key is in that application, too.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 


Re: control plus windows plus either left or right arrows

 

Mike,

Sorry that I somehow confabulated CTRL with WinKey in my prior response.  But the overarching principle still applies.

But now, in rechecking the NVDA Quick Commands Reference (NVDA + N, H, Q), the following section applies:

When within a table, the following key commands are also available:

Name Key Description
Move to previous column control+alt+leftArrow Moves the system caret to the previous column (staying in the same row)
Move to next column control+alt+rightArrow Moves the system caret to the next column (staying in the same row)
Move to previous row control+alt+upArrow Moves the system caret to the previous row (staying in the same column)
Move to next row control+alt+downArrow Moves the system caret to the next row (staying in the same column)

But these should active if and only if you are currently within a table, at least if the commands quick reference is accurate, and I'd have to believe it is.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 


Re: control plus windows plus either left or right arrows

 

Mike,

What NVDA Add-Ons are you using?  I just did a quick review of the Input Gestures dialog, and the NVDA Quick Commands, and neither indicates that CTRL + WinKey + arrow keys is assigned to anything by NVDA (unless I missed it, and that's possible).  This leads me to believe that this is likely a conflict caused by some add-on.

There are a finite number of keyboard shortcuts available, and triple-key-press ones are seldom used, even by Windows.  I suspect an add-on has snagged this and that's why you need to use pass-through (NVDA + F2) to get it to have its other default function in the application you're using.

It would help to know what application that is, and what the intended function of the WinKey + Alt + Left or Right Arrow key is in that application, too.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 

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