Date   

Re: NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Brian,

 

You’re absolutely right about this.

 

There are clickables that don’t appear to the screen reader to be actionable, so they just sound like a piece of text. The only thing I find I can do is to press enter or Insert Enter on them to see if they action anything.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 15 November 2021 17:46
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

 

On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 12:27 PM, Jackie wrote:

Truthfully, I don't think the vast majority of web devs know the difference between clickable elements & checkboxes.

-
Jackie,

Even though his comment is meta-NVDA, I'll say not only is your observation accurate, but it's more than just checkboxes.  In the last couple of years it's become all the rage to present links not with click through text or a navigation structure, but such that they look identical to a button to a sighted user.  The only way I know that many of these are links instead of buttons is that I've accustomed myself to looking at what shows up in the browser status bar when I hover on them.

For someone such as myself, who tutors those new to screen readers, imagine how insane it was when that practice started, unnanounced, and I'm saying, "Navigate to the {insert what's presented here} button and activate it," when it wasn't a button and if the button quick navigation was being used to try to "bounce over" to it you'd never land on it.  Let us simply say that neither I, nor my students, were thrilled about this development.  Even though I know about it, I'm still not.  Masking one type of element as another is just not a good idea from purely a design perspective.
 
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The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

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Slight problem with Whatsapp Desktop add-on

Sim Kah Yong
 

Hi all,

May I know if anyone encounters this problem with the above add-on for Whatsapp Desktop? The keyboard shortcut , Control + shift + T which is supposed to Say name of actual chat does not work for me. Most of the other shortcuts are working well. I want to thank the person who created this add-on which makes working with Whatsapp Desktop a joy.

I am using Windows 10, NVDA 2021.2 and the latest version of the add-on. Anticipating any response. Thanks.


Re: More granular reporting of font/style information?

Quentin Christensen
 

There isn't currently a way to separate announcement of strikethrough from other font attributes.

The options I can think of (unless there is an add-on with more granularity?) are basically:

- Create an issue on: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues outlining the need and use case
- See if your team can change the way they report changes
- If the page doesn't have a lot of other font attribute changes, another option is to set a configuration profile with font attributes enabled, and assign it a keystroke so that you can enable that configuration easily.

See our recent In-process blog article on using Configuration Profiles: https://www.nvaccess.org/post/in-process-19th-august-2021/#Profiles
Here's an older blog post which covered using Input gestures: https://www.nvaccess.org/post/in-process-24th-july-2018/#InputGestures

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 9:46 AM Luke Robinett <lukelistservs@...> wrote:
Hi,
I need to know when text on a particular website has been formatted as strikethrough. I found that if I enabled the font attributes setting from the document formatting tab of NVDA settings this reports the strikethrough attribute, but it also reports all other attributes of fonts, which is way too much information. I just need to know when something is strikethrough because this is how my development team indicates a requirement that no longer needs to be considered when I’m reviewing a ticket. Is there a way to tell NVDA to only announce if the strike through attribute is present but otherwise behave as normal? If not, I may need to work with my team to get them to capture the information in a different way. I just prefer not to have to change everybody else’s processes if I can fix it on my end. Thanks.






--
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Training and Support Manager


Re: About inserting two features into NVDA that cannot yet be used natively

 

Thats good to know.
I know some users over react but yeah maybe I do to at times.

On 16/11/2021, Quentin Christensen <quentin@...> wrote:
I think it's important to keep things in context - NVDA has had TWO
releases which broke add-on compatibility - NVDA 2019.3 and NVDA 2021.1.
We have said that if we need to make an add-on breaking release we will
make it the first release of the year - but that also doesn't mean that we
will break add-on compatibility every year. We will avoid it where we can.

We are also quite open and give developers as much notice as we can about
upcoming breakages, and that I think has also had the effect of some of
that conversation filtering down here for instance and giving a perception
of things constantly breaking.

The recent NVDA 2021.3 Beta 1 which broke add-ons was NOT at all related to
this, but simply something which crept in and which was fixed in Beta 2 -
if anything that highlights exactly why it is important to test beta
releases and report issues with them - and still have a way back to a
stable release in case things don't work - but that is a separate
conversation.

We are aware of the impact that any breaking change has and are looking at
ways of minimising this in future - and we always welcome constructive
feedback. We'd also encourage all developers to document projects, ensure
they are updated on GitHub, and if you are planning to stop maintaining an
add-on, then let the community know, so that someone else can pick up the
project and continue it, or at least ensure it is updated to work with the
latest version when changes necessitate it.

Quentin.

On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 4:24 PM Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@...> wrote:

I also agree with this.

With a lot I do a lot less work has been taken over by automation.

And while I accept users need to keep things updated, nvda is not linux.

Users shouldn't have to chace down devs and muck about if all they are
doing is using the software.

Now I will do this to be active but suppose you don't wana do that.

Suppose you just want to use the system.

I have several users that do stuff and it works.

If it doesn't after floundering round trying to fix their system often
with disasterous results they bring whats left to me to fix.

When I fix it, I ask them what their original issue was and what they did
to fix it.

Usually after researching and going on tangents they end up with a busted
system.

I get it, reformat it and it works again.

The issue is usually simple and easy to fix or in fact I may know where
to
go or get something that works but that is because I am a geek.

I have mucked about with, broken, totally screwed up and reformatted my
way in and out of trouble so many times I can more or less pick up what
the
intent usually is.

But a standard user just wants their stuff to run.

They don't care you need a password for it or an extra obscure key or
another program module they want to use their software with minimal fuss
and expect that it does.

I hhave often spent time dumbing down things so the user can use whatever
only to find I have to change things on the fly.

A general non geek, that isn't like 99% of us on here or at least a large
portion of us I am sure more more inteligent then myself I suspect.

Point is standard users want it to work and thats it.

I am not sying don't inovate but maybe where we can we need to have it so
users can use their stuff and keep the breakage rate down.

I realise that may mean having extra non secure stuff about but
eventually
things will be updated most devs or others will be found and things will
be
updated and it will work.

On that note I wander if there is an more automated way to add stable
versions of addons tothe update database on a more automated level.

And maybe a separate one for betas or something.

Its just a manual entry needs to be done once something is stable surely
there is an easier way.



On 15/11/2021 4:45 pm, Michael Micallef at FITA wrote:

I agree 100%



*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*On
Behalf Of *Mary Otten via groups.io
*Sent:* Monday, 15 November 2021 03:47
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] About inserting two features into NVDA that cannot
yet be used natively



CAUTION: This email originated from OUTSIDE the Government Email
Infrastructure. DO NOT CLICK LINKS or OPEN attachments unless you
recognise
the sender and know the content is safe.



Having no computer science background, I can't comment on this from that
point of view. But I will say that as an end user who wants to get things
done, does not want to be more involved with the computer than I am with
actual productivity, I would like it if basic functionality that is used
by
most people could be part of the program, rather than having to depend on
add-ons. Its a hastle. For those who do this full time, good for you. But
for the rest of us who just want to get tasks done, forget it.



Mary



On 11/14/2021 6:44 PM, Gene wrote:

I think this is a non issue. For one thing, noone is talking about
;adding twenty, thirty, or more functions. Second, processors are so
fast
now that I don’t think adding a lot of functions would make any
difference. Also, I doubt that just adding functions would make a
difference even if processors were much slower because I doubt that a lot
of the functions would do anything except under very specific conditions,
thus not taking any significant amount of computer power.



Gene

-----Original Message-----

*From:* Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@...>

*Sent:* Sunday, November 14, 2021 8:18 PM

*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io

*Subject:* Re: [nvda] About inserting two features into NVDA that cannot
yet be used natively



What proof is there that the more add ons that are running with nvda, the
more resources it takes? Would this not be the case the more that is in
core? I personally don't want nvda to become bloated, therefore I use the
add ons to Taylor my experience to what I need it to be.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On
Behalf Of Marcos Antonio Schllosser
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2021 1:24 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] About inserting two features into NVDA that cannot yet be
used natively

Greetings!

I would like to mention the insertion of two features into NVDA that I
use
a lot but I have had a lot of problems because these Add-ons need to be
constantly updated due to Python innovations.

1. Added the possibility for NVDA to pronounce copy, paste, cut and
select
when manipulating texts or applications. There are 2 Add-ons that were
developed for this but it would be very interesting if these functions
were
available natively in NVDA so we don't need to install this Add-on.

2. Inserting one more option in Dictionary preferences. It would be the
option of creating Dictionaries for specific applications. There is
already
an Add-on for this as well but it would be very interesting if this
functionality were built in natively in NVDA.

Because the less Add-ons we install the better the performance of NVDA.
And because I use it a lot, I can't give up these two features that I've
been using for several years.

I appreciate if you can insert more of these two possibilities natively
in
NVDA.












--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Web: www.nvaccess.org
Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/
User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>






Re: About inserting two features into NVDA that cannot yet be used natively

Quentin Christensen
 

I think it's important to keep things in context - NVDA has had TWO releases which broke add-on compatibility - NVDA 2019.3 and NVDA 2021.1.  We have said that if we need to make an add-on breaking release we will make it the first release of the year - but that also doesn't mean that we will break add-on compatibility every year.  We will avoid it where we can.

We are also quite open and give developers as much notice as we can about upcoming breakages, and that I think has also had the effect of some of that conversation filtering down here for instance and giving a perception of things constantly breaking.

The recent NVDA 2021.3 Beta 1 which broke add-ons was NOT at all related to this, but simply something which crept in and which was fixed in Beta 2 - if anything that highlights exactly why it is important to test beta releases and report issues with them - and still have a way back to a stable release in case things don't work - but that is a separate conversation.

We are aware of the impact that any breaking change has and are looking at ways of minimising this in future - and we always welcome constructive feedback.  We'd also encourage all developers to document projects, ensure they are updated on GitHub, and if you are planning to stop maintaining an add-on, then let the community know, so that someone else can pick up the project and continue it, or at least ensure it is updated to work with the latest version when changes necessitate it.

Quentin.

On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 4:24 PM Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@...> wrote:

I also agree with this.

With a lot I do a lot less work has been taken over by automation.

And while I accept users need to keep things updated, nvda is not linux.

Users shouldn't have to chace down devs and muck about if all they are doing is using the software.

Now I will do this to be active but suppose you don't wana do that.

Suppose you just want to use the system.

I have several users that do stuff and it works.

If it doesn't after floundering round trying to fix their system often with disasterous results they bring whats left to me to fix.

When I fix it, I ask them what their original issue was and what they did to fix it.

Usually after researching and going on tangents they end up with a busted system.

I get it, reformat it and it works again.

The issue is usually simple and easy to fix or in fact I may know where to go or get something that works but that is because I am a geek.

I have mucked about with, broken, totally screwed up and reformatted my way in and out of trouble so many times I can more or less pick up what the intent usually is.

But a standard user just wants their stuff to run.

They don't care you need a password for it or an extra obscure key or another program module they want to use their software with minimal fuss and expect that it does.

I hhave often spent time dumbing down things so the user can use whatever only to find I have to change things on the fly.

A general non geek, that isn't like 99% of us on here or at least a large portion of us I am sure more more inteligent then myself I suspect.

Point is standard users want it to work and thats it.

I am not sying don't inovate but maybe where we can we need to have it so users can use their stuff and keep the breakage rate down.

I realise that may mean having extra non secure stuff about but eventually things will be updated most devs or others will be found and things will be updated and it will work.

On that note I wander if there is an more automated way to add stable versions of addons tothe update database on a more automated level.

And maybe a separate one for betas or something.

Its just a manual entry needs to be done once something is stable surely there is an easier way.



On 15/11/2021 4:45 pm, Michael Micallef at FITA wrote:

I agree 100%

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mary Otten via groups.io
Sent: Monday, 15 November 2021 03:47
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] About inserting two features into NVDA that cannot yet be used natively

 

CAUTION: This email originated from OUTSIDE the Government Email Infrastructure. DO NOT CLICK LINKS or OPEN attachments unless you recognise the sender and know the content is safe.

 

Having no computer science background, I can't comment on this from that point of view. But I will say that as an end user who wants to get things done, does not want to be more involved with the computer than I am with actual productivity, I would like it if basic functionality that is used by most people could be part of the program, rather than having to depend on add-ons. Its a hastle. For those who do this full time, good for you. But for the rest of us who just want to get tasks done, forget it.

 

Mary

 

On 11/14/2021 6:44 PM, Gene wrote:

I think this is a non issue.  For one thing, noone is talking about ;adding twenty, thirty, or more functions.  Second, processors are so fast now that I don’t think adding a lot of functions would make any difference.  Also, I doubt that just adding functions would make a difference even if processors were much slower because I doubt that a lot of the functions would do anything except under very specific conditions, thus not taking any significant amount of computer power.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2021 8:18 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] About inserting two features into NVDA that cannot yet be used natively

 

What proof is there that the more add ons that are running with nvda, the more resources it takes? Would this not be the case the more that is in core? I personally don't want nvda to become bloated, therefore I use the add ons to Taylor my experience to what I need it to be.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Marcos Antonio Schllosser
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2021 1:24 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] About inserting two features into NVDA that cannot yet be used natively

Greetings!

I would like to mention the insertion of two features into NVDA that I use a lot but I have had a lot of problems because these Add-ons need to be constantly updated due to Python innovations.

1. Added the possibility for NVDA to pronounce copy, paste, cut and select when manipulating texts or applications. There are 2 Add-ons that were developed for this but it would be very interesting if these functions were available natively in NVDA so we don't need to install this Add-on.

2. Inserting one more option in Dictionary preferences. It would be the option of creating Dictionaries for specific applications. There is already an Add-on for this as well but it would be very interesting if this functionality were built in natively in NVDA.

Because the less Add-ons we install the better the performance of NVDA.
And because I use it a lot, I can't give up these two features that I've been using for several years.

I appreciate if you can insert more of these two possibilities natively in NVDA.












--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Re: NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

Sarah k Alawami
 

No they really do not. I've had my fair share of battle with web developers who don't really want to change things as they are working fine for them. It's sad really. I feel like I'm giving them an education in a course they should have taken to begin with.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jackie
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 9:27 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

Truthfully, I don't think the vast majority of web devs know the difference between clickable elements & checkboxes.

On 11/15/21, Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@...> wrote:
Some browsers render things different per the instructions of the web
devs, so both may be at fault here.



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 9:01 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google
Chrome



Since Firefox sees the checkboxes, I don’t know that its valid to
assume what the problem is and that it is improper design. Also,
there may be cases where you will hear explanatory text that
accompanies a structure read if you tab into the structure rather than
move to it in some other way. I haven’t compared Chrome-based and not
Chrome-based browsers in these cases but again, is this improper design or just the complexity of design?



Gene

-----Original Message-----

From: Jackie <mailto:abletec@...>

Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 10:55 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google
Chrome



Yeah well, I'm not trying to be obscene here, but it's because the web
designers didn't use checkboxes that expose themselves, or, perhaps to
put it just a bit more succinctly, expose their state. & it is a royal
pita, & it's not unique to NVDA, though having said thus, sometimes
Jaws actually allows labeling of these graphics, whereas NVDA doesn't.
& it's not an issue specific to Chrome, either. It's actually called a
"clickable element" as opposed to a checkbox. Sighted folks generally
cant distinguish these from standard checkboxes, but they sure create
problems for us.

On 11/15/21, Tyler Zahnke <programmer651@...
<mailto:programmer651@...> > wrote:
Hello NVDA community! Why does NVDA not read some checkboxes in
Google Chrome? NVDA reads a lot of them, but some sites have a "remember me"
checkbox on their login screen that just says "clickable"; when you
press Enter where it says clickable, the box checks, but NVDA doesn't
tell you this. I have seen websites that contain both accessible and
inaccessible checkboxes, why is this? And several times (I have a
memory of seeing this on the login screen of Palai), it doesn't read
some of the checkboxes, such as "remember me", at all. It actually
got to the point where I thought they had removed the checkbox from
their site because it completely didn't read it, but users of other
devices claimed they still saw the checkbox, but several of us Chrome
and NVDA users noticed the missing checkbox. And as soon as I tried
the same site with Firefox and NVDA, I saw the checkbox, but it said
"remember me clickable" and therefore, though you could check and
uncheck it, NVDA wouldn't tell you, while on Chrome, NVDA skips over
the box. This was a problem with a website that I actually had to
help out as far as accessibility; their site had some regular
checkboxes on the form and screen readers could read it just fine,
but then some checkboxes said "clickable" or didn't say anything at
all, yet the Enter key worked on them but the screen reader didn't
say. I've probably seen variations on this issue for a few years, some checkbox not displaying in Chrome.
Often I would try it again with Firefox, and at least in the
checkbox-related cases, it usually worked. And in the case of the
website I helped make accessible, I even looked at the HTML for the
checkboxes, and even the inaccessible checkboxes were still coded
like checkboxes though they may have had some extra styling on them.
So what's the deal with checkboxes?






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Re: NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

Brian Sackrider
 

        I have an example of whear fire fox will and nvda will see somthng but chrome brousers don't.  The audio of the lions magazine in both edge and chrome there is no down it all button but in fire fox there is a down it all button.  I am not surprised about other things that fire fox sees that chrome brousers don't this is why I say that for the blind chrome based brousers are kind of usless junk and this is the reason that I use internet explorer for as long as I did as it was not a chrome based brouser.  I have windows 11 and there is no more internet explorer so I had to find a nonchrome based brouser and thats why i am using fire fox as my default brouser.

Brian Sackrider

On 11/15/2021 5:12 PM, Gene wrote:
I am increasingly finding cases where Firefox either sees things or does things that Chrome doesn’t when used with NVDA.  I don’t use JAWS and my demo is far too old to evaluate whether the same things occur.  But I think the question of whether Chrome-based browsers are working properly with sites in terms of accessibility should be systematically addressed.
 
Here are two examples:
First is this article from The New York Times;.
If you are at the top of the page and press s to move by separator, you will immediately move to cards giving background information on the story.
In Firefox, you see, at the end of the card, a button for previous card, unavailable since you are on the first card, and a button for next card.
Activating this button works.  It moves you to the next card.
To easily get to this card in a proper position to read it, press page up, then s for separator.
The previous and next card buttons both work correctly for this card and, I assume, for all other cards.
 
I tested with Chrome and Brave and neither of these Chrome-based browsers saw either button. I could read the first card below the separator but no buttons are displayed.

I’ve recently been looking up material on occasion using the Encyclopedia Britannica online.  When reading with Firefox, the page being read automatically shows new material as you move down it.  Firefox shows this new material when it appears.  Chrome-based browsers don’t. 
This article is an example:
 
Search from the top of the page for the word nervous.  If you down arrow in Firefox, the text continues after some items, perhaps three or four.  Chrome-based browsers don’t load new material at least not accessibly to screen-readers.
 
Chrome-based browsers don’t see comments on Youtube pages where videos are streamed.  Firefox does.  Because the page changes as you move down it, you have to move down the page to see the comments.  You can’t just search for the word comment to get to the section.
 
I’ll add that all these comments are for my specific machine but I expect they will be generally experienced.  Verification, however, is necessary.
 
Are these problems with Chrome, with NVDA, or both?  I suspect that these problems are not improper implementation of accessibility.  Those questions, however, would require technically knowledgeable investigation to be resolved.
 
Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Gene
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome
 
Since Firefox sees the checkboxes, I don’t know that its valid to assume what the problem is and that it is improper design.  Also, there may be cases where you will hear explanatory text that accompanies a structure read if you tab into the structure rather than move to it in some other way.  I haven’t compared Chrome-based and not Chrome-based browsers in these cases but again, is this improper design or just the complexity of design?
 
Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Jackie
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome
 
Yeah well, I'm not trying to be obscene here, but it's because the web
designers didn't use checkboxes that expose themselves, or, perhaps to
put it just a bit more succinctly, expose their state. & it is a royal
pita, & it's not unique to NVDA, though having said thus, sometimes
Jaws actually allows labeling of these graphics, whereas NVDA doesn't.
& it's not an issue specific to Chrome, either. It's actually called a
"clickable element" as opposed to a checkbox. Sighted folks generally
cant distinguish these from standard checkboxes, but they sure create
problems for us.

On 11/15/21, Tyler Zahnke <programmer651@...> wrote:
> Hello NVDA community! Why does NVDA not read some checkboxes in Google
> Chrome? NVDA reads a lot of them, but some sites have a "remember me"
> checkbox on their login screen that just says "clickable"; when you
> press Enter where it says clickable, the box checks, but NVDA doesn't
> tell you this. I have seen websites that contain both accessible and
> inaccessible checkboxes, why is this? And several times (I have a
> memory of seeing this on the login screen of Palai), it doesn't read
> some of the checkboxes, such as "remember me", at all. It actually got
> to the point where I thought they had removed the checkbox from their
> site because it completely didn't read it, but users of other devices
> claimed they still saw the checkbox, but several of us Chrome and NVDA
> users noticed the missing checkbox. And as soon as I tried the same
> site with Firefox and NVDA, I saw the checkbox, but it said "remember
> me clickable" and therefore, though you could check and uncheck it,
> NVDA wouldn't tell you, while on Chrome, NVDA skips over the box. This
> was a problem with a website that I actually had to help out as far as
> accessibility; their site had some regular checkboxes on the form and
> screen readers could read it just fine, but then some checkboxes said
> "clickable" or didn't say anything at all, yet the Enter key worked on
> them but the screen reader didn't say. I've probably seen variations
> on this issue for a few years, some checkbox not displaying in Chrome.
> Often I would try it again with Firefox, and at least in the
> checkbox-related cases, it usually worked. And in the case of the
> website I helped make accessible, I even looked at the HTML for the
> checkboxes, and even the inaccessible checkboxes were still coded like
> checkboxes though they may have had some extra styling on them. So
> what's the deal with checkboxes?
>
>
>
>
>
>


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More granular reporting of font/style information?

Luke Robinett
 

Hi,
I need to know when text on a particular website has been formatted as strikethrough. I found that if I enabled the font attributes setting from the document formatting tab of NVDA settings this reports the strikethrough attribute, but it also reports all other attributes of fonts, which is way too much information. I just need to know when something is strikethrough because this is how my development team indicates a requirement that no longer needs to be considered when I’m reviewing a ticket. Is there a way to tell NVDA to only announce if the strike through attribute is present but otherwise behave as normal? If not, I may need to work with my team to get them to capture the information in a different way. I just prefer not to have to change everybody else’s processes if I can fix it on my end. Thanks.


Re: NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

Jackie
 

Might have something to do w/the fact that 1 of the cofounders of NVDA
currently works for Mozilla? Or not. We definitively have a strong
ally in James Teh, though, & I rather suspect that's not so much the
case w/Google. I know firsthand that when he started getting reports
of Firefox 90 not working he was all over it. I know this because he
actually used my machine remotely to do some debugging, because he
could not reproduce the bug on any of his.

On 11/15/21, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I am increasingly finding cases where Firefox either sees things or does
things that Chrome doesn’t when used with NVDA. I don’t use JAWS and my
demo is far too old to evaluate whether the same things occur. But I think
the question of whether Chrome-based browsers are working properly with
sites in terms of accessibility should be systematically addressed.

Here are two examples:
First is this article from The New York Times;.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/15/us/rittenhouse-trial-closing-arguments.html
If you are at the top of the page and press s to move by separator, you will
immediately move to cards giving background information on the story.
In Firefox, you see, at the end of the card, a button for previous card,
unavailable since you are on the first card, and a button for next card.
Activating this button works. It moves you to the next card.
To easily get to this card in a proper position to read it, press page up,
then s for separator.
The previous and next card buttons both work correctly for this card and, I
assume, for all other cards.

I tested with Chrome and Brave and neither of these Chrome-based browsers
saw either button. I could read the first card below the separator but no
buttons are displayed.

I’ve recently been looking up material on occasion using the Encyclopedia
Britannica online. When reading with Firefox, the page being read
automatically shows new material as you move down it. Firefox shows this
new material when it appears. Chrome-based browsers don’t.
This article is an example:
https://www.britannica.com/art/television-in-the-United-States/The-late-Golden-Age

Search from the top of the page for the word nervous. If you down arrow in
Firefox, the text continues after some items, perhaps three or four.
Chrome-based browsers don’t load new material at least not accessibly to
screen-readers.

Chrome-based browsers don’t see comments on Youtube pages where videos are
streamed. Firefox does. Because the page changes as you move down it, you
have to move down the page to see the comments. You can’t just search for
the word comment to get to the section.

I’ll add that all these comments are for my specific machine but I expect
they will be generally experienced. Verification, however, is necessary.

Are these problems with Chrome, with NVDA, or both? I suspect that these
problems are not improper implementation of accessibility. Those questions,
however, would require technically knowledgeable investigation to be
resolved.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Gene
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 11:00 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google
Chrome

Since Firefox sees the checkboxes, I don’t know that its valid to assume
what the problem is and that it is improper design. Also, there may be
cases where you will hear explanatory text that accompanies a structure read
if you tab into the structure rather than move to it in some other way. I
haven’t compared Chrome-based and not Chrome-based browsers in these cases
but again, is this improper design or just the complexity of design?

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Jackie
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 10:55 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google
Chrome

Yeah well, I'm not trying to be obscene here, but it's because the web
designers didn't use checkboxes that expose themselves, or, perhaps to
put it just a bit more succinctly, expose their state. & it is a royal
pita, & it's not unique to NVDA, though having said thus, sometimes
Jaws actually allows labeling of these graphics, whereas NVDA doesn't.
& it's not an issue specific to Chrome, either. It's actually called a
"clickable element" as opposed to a checkbox. Sighted folks generally
cant distinguish these from standard checkboxes, but they sure create
problems for us.

On 11/15/21, Tyler Zahnke <programmer651@...> wrote:
Hello NVDA community! Why does NVDA not read some checkboxes in Google
Chrome? NVDA reads a lot of them, but some sites have a "remember me"
checkbox on their login screen that just says "clickable"; when you
press Enter where it says clickable, the box checks, but NVDA doesn't
tell you this. I have seen websites that contain both accessible and
inaccessible checkboxes, why is this? And several times (I have a
memory of seeing this on the login screen of Palai), it doesn't read
some of the checkboxes, such as "remember me", at all. It actually got
to the point where I thought they had removed the checkbox from their
site because it completely didn't read it, but users of other devices
claimed they still saw the checkbox, but several of us Chrome and NVDA
users noticed the missing checkbox. And as soon as I tried the same
site with Firefox and NVDA, I saw the checkbox, but it said "remember
me clickable" and therefore, though you could check and uncheck it,
NVDA wouldn't tell you, while on Chrome, NVDA skips over the box. This
was a problem with a website that I actually had to help out as far as
accessibility; their site had some regular checkboxes on the form and
screen readers could read it just fine, but then some checkboxes said
"clickable" or didn't say anything at all, yet the Enter key worked on
them but the screen reader didn't say. I've probably seen variations
on this issue for a few years, some checkbox not displaying in Chrome.
Often I would try it again with Firefox, and at least in the
checkbox-related cases, it usually worked. And in the case of the
website I helped make accessible, I even looked at the HTML for the
checkboxes, and even the inaccessible checkboxes were still coded like
checkboxes though they may have had some extra styling on them. So
what's the deal with checkboxes?






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Re: NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

Gene
 

I am increasingly finding cases where Firefox either sees things or does things that Chrome doesn’t when used with NVDA.  I don’t use JAWS and my demo is far too old to evaluate whether the same things occur.  But I think the question of whether Chrome-based browsers are working properly with sites in terms of accessibility should be systematically addressed.
 
Here are two examples:
First is this article from The New York Times;.
If you are at the top of the page and press s to move by separator, you will immediately move to cards giving background information on the story.
In Firefox, you see, at the end of the card, a button for previous card, unavailable since you are on the first card, and a button for next card.
Activating this button works.  It moves you to the next card.
To easily get to this card in a proper position to read it, press page up, then s for separator.
The previous and next card buttons both work correctly for this card and, I assume, for all other cards.
 
I tested with Chrome and Brave and neither of these Chrome-based browsers saw either button. I could read the first card below the separator but no buttons are displayed.

I’ve recently been looking up material on occasion using the Encyclopedia Britannica online.  When reading with Firefox, the page being read automatically shows new material as you move down it.  Firefox shows this new material when it appears.  Chrome-based browsers don’t. 
This article is an example:
 
Search from the top of the page for the word nervous.  If you down arrow in Firefox, the text continues after some items, perhaps three or four.  Chrome-based browsers don’t load new material at least not accessibly to screen-readers.
 
Chrome-based browsers don’t see comments on Youtube pages where videos are streamed.  Firefox does.  Because the page changes as you move down it, you have to move down the page to see the comments.  You can’t just search for the word comment to get to the section.
 
I’ll add that all these comments are for my specific machine but I expect they will be generally experienced.  Verification, however, is necessary.
 
Are these problems with Chrome, with NVDA, or both?  I suspect that these problems are not improper implementation of accessibility.  Those questions, however, would require technically knowledgeable investigation to be resolved.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Gene
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome
 
Since Firefox sees the checkboxes, I don’t know that its valid to assume what the problem is and that it is improper design.  Also, there may be cases where you will hear explanatory text that accompanies a structure read if you tab into the structure rather than move to it in some other way.  I haven’t compared Chrome-based and not Chrome-based browsers in these cases but again, is this improper design or just the complexity of design?
 
Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Jackie
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome
 
Yeah well, I'm not trying to be obscene here, but it's because the web
designers didn't use checkboxes that expose themselves, or, perhaps to
put it just a bit more succinctly, expose their state. & it is a royal
pita, & it's not unique to NVDA, though having said thus, sometimes
Jaws actually allows labeling of these graphics, whereas NVDA doesn't.
& it's not an issue specific to Chrome, either. It's actually called a
"clickable element" as opposed to a checkbox. Sighted folks generally
cant distinguish these from standard checkboxes, but they sure create
problems for us.

On 11/15/21, Tyler Zahnke <programmer651@...> wrote:
> Hello NVDA community! Why does NVDA not read some checkboxes in Google
> Chrome? NVDA reads a lot of them, but some sites have a "remember me"
> checkbox on their login screen that just says "clickable"; when you
> press Enter where it says clickable, the box checks, but NVDA doesn't
> tell you this. I have seen websites that contain both accessible and
> inaccessible checkboxes, why is this? And several times (I have a
> memory of seeing this on the login screen of Palai), it doesn't read
> some of the checkboxes, such as "remember me", at all. It actually got
> to the point where I thought they had removed the checkbox from their
> site because it completely didn't read it, but users of other devices
> claimed they still saw the checkbox, but several of us Chrome and NVDA
> users noticed the missing checkbox. And as soon as I tried the same
> site with Firefox and NVDA, I saw the checkbox, but it said "remember
> me clickable" and therefore, though you could check and uncheck it,
> NVDA wouldn't tell you, while on Chrome, NVDA skips over the box. This
> was a problem with a website that I actually had to help out as far as
> accessibility; their site had some regular checkboxes on the form and
> screen readers could read it just fine, but then some checkboxes said
> "clickable" or didn't say anything at all, yet the Enter key worked on
> them but the screen reader didn't say. I've probably seen variations
> on this issue for a few years, some checkbox not displaying in Chrome.
> Often I would try it again with Firefox, and at least in the
> checkbox-related cases, it usually worked. And in the case of the
> website I helped make accessible, I even looked at the HTML for the
> checkboxes, and even the inaccessible checkboxes were still coded like
> checkboxes though they may have had some extra styling on them. So
> what's the deal with checkboxes?
>
>
>
>
>
>


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Re: Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

Gene
 

Setting the caps lock key is independent of whether you use the desktop or laptop layout.  Each layout has a check box in its settings to use caps lock.  I use the desktop layout but I use the caps lock with down arrow to start read to end.  I find it cumbersome to use insert and the down arrow key. 
 
I use the caps lock key for NVDA key plus keys on the right side of the keyboard in general such as to change the punctuation level on the fly and how and if progress bars are announced.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 2:32 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key
 

I have always used the laptop layout for NVDA or any other screen reader!

I think it is easier to use with everything at your finger tips!

David Moore

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 12:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 12:07 PM, tim wrote:

i also use it every time i"m righting a email or word processor.

-
You use CAPS LOCK that much?   I've never seen any of your messages here be in ALL CAPS.

In the real world of computing, which I've been a part of since the mid-1980s, I have very seldom observed anyone, with the rarest of exceptions, make frequent use of CAPS LOCK as very few people ever want their material to be in all caps, all the time.

SHIFT gets used constantly; CAPS LOCK, not so much.  And nothing you can say about your own patterns changes the general pattern.  If you're using CAPS LOCK much other than as an NVDA modifier key in laptop keyboard layout, you are an outlier.  And even if you're using NVDA laptop keyboard layout, you are an outlier when the entire NVDA user base is considered.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 

 


Re: Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

David Moore
 

I have always used the laptop layout for NVDA or any other screen reader!

I think it is easier to use with everything at your finger tips!

David Moore

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 12:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 12:07 PM, tim wrote:

i also use it every time i"m righting a email or word processor.

-
You use CAPS LOCK that much?   I've never seen any of your messages here be in ALL CAPS.

In the real world of computing, which I've been a part of since the mid-1980s, I have very seldom observed anyone, with the rarest of exceptions, make frequent use of CAPS LOCK as very few people ever want their material to be in all caps, all the time.

SHIFT gets used constantly; CAPS LOCK, not so much.  And nothing you can say about your own patterns changes the general pattern.  If you're using CAPS LOCK much other than as an NVDA modifier key in laptop keyboard layout, you are an outlier.  And even if you're using NVDA laptop keyboard layout, you are an outlier when the entire NVDA user base is considered.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 

 


Re: Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

David Moore
 

I just press the caps lock without thinking about doing so.

I can’t believe all of this discussion has been going on about something that trivial!

David Moore

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 12:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 12:01 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

I mean I can press the capslock twice

-
Or you could learn the desktop layout, an option which you adamantly refuse to do.

Choices have consequences, as you yourself have observed on many occasions.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 

 


Re: Not reading the conversation on messenger.com

Arlene
 

Hi list: I use facebook  and messenger on the phone. I find its way easier then the computer.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Sarah k Alawami
Sent: November 15, 2021 9:03 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Not reading the conversation on messenger.com

 

I use both facebook messenger on windows and on the phone. Both are very much accessible if you know how to use your screen reader's tools. I might do a podcast on it even though it's such a simple app, many people don't know how to use the appropriate modes to access some electron apps such as messenger.

 

-----Original Message-----

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of tim

Sent: Monday, November 15, 2021 9:01 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] Not reading the conversation on messenger.com

 

I use it only on my phone.

 

Because its totally accessible.

 

 

On 11/14/2021 9:06 PM, Robert Mendoza wrote:

> Not sure if anyone here uses messenger.com for website.

> When navigating through the conversation list the NEDA does not

> reading the name of certain person or group chat.

> so to speak it was unlabelled.

> Is there a way to mitigate this properly.

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Re: NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

 

On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 01:03 PM, Tyler Zahnke wrote:
Well, then why doesn't NVDA say "clicked" when a clickable element is clicked? One time my focus was out of focus and my enter key didn't
click it.
-
I truly do not know whether this behavior is by design or not as far as NVDA is concerned, or whether there may be a setting that would allow the announcement you seek.

 And while I understand why, when you're not focused on a clickable element and you attempt to activate (click) it, that doesn't work, that alone should be a big clue that your focus was off.  If you try again, once you've confirmed focus, and it still doesn't activate then we're back to "it's a problem with the page design."

There is no right or wrong as far as personal preferences as to how much or little auditory feedback about behavior you get from a screen reader, but I try to teach my students/clients not to rely on auditory feedback of the "clicked" type when, in the vast majority of cases, the actual behavior post activation tells you all you need to know.  You can infer things, when all is working as it should, without these kinds of action confirmation feedback.  You can also infer that all is not working as it should on those occasions where you need to do so.  Both of those become second nature once you're used to using "what was the result of my action" as your metric as to whether a given action was taken or not.

Some of this, though, may very well depend on whether you've always been blind or went blind later in life.  Most of my clients are the latter, and the action confirmations drive them to distraction, particularly early on.  They simply know that for example, if you've got something selected and hit CTRL + C, it is copied to the clipboard.  There are the rare occasions where you may have accidentally deselected before hitting copy, but you'll know that when you go to paste, and the end result would still be you need to go back and select and copy again.

There are a very large number of actions where, if you know you know the correct shortcut for them, that it's safe to take on faith have worked when what you do next serves as a confirmation that this prior step worked as expected or not.  It's just a matter of getting used to looking at the result of step 2 as your confirmation that step 1 did what you thought it should.  And for a skilled computer user, way more than 90% of the time, it will have.
-

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 


Re: NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

Jackie
 

Because if it's out of focus, NVDA doesnt know you wish to click it.
It, like me, bombed telepathy 101.

It's always good practice, if something doesn't work as expected, to
use keystrokes like shift+backspace or NVDA+backspace to move focus to
where it should be. Sometimes, even NVDA + f5 to refresh the site can
help bring things back to rights.

On 11/15/21, Tyler Zahnke <programmer651@...> wrote:
Well, then why doesn't NVDA say "clicked" when a clickable element is
clicked? One time my focus was out of focus and my enter key didn't
click it.

On 11/15/21, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 12:27 PM, Jackie wrote:


Truthfully, I don't think the vast majority of web devs know the
difference between clickable elements & checkboxes.
-
Jackie,

Even though his comment is meta-NVDA, I'll say not only is your
observation
accurate, but it's more than just checkboxes.  In the last couple of
years
it's become all the rage to present links not with click through text or
a
navigation structure, but such that they look identical to a button to a
sighted user.  The only way I know that many of these are links instead
of
buttons is that I've accustomed myself to looking at what shows up in the
browser status bar when I hover on them.

For someone such as myself, who tutors those new to screen readers,
imagine
how insane it was when that practice started, unnanounced, and I'm
saying,
"Navigate to the {insert what's presented here} button and activate it,"
when it wasn't a button and if the button quick navigation was being used
to
try to "bounce over" to it you'd never land on it.  Let us simply say
that
neither I, nor my students, were thrilled about this development.  Even
though I know about it, I'm still not.  Masking one type of element as
another is just not a good idea from purely a design perspective.

--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043

*The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.*

~ John F. Kennedy









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Re: NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

Tyler Zahnke <programmer651@...>
 

Well, then why doesn't NVDA say "clicked" when a clickable element is
clicked? One time my focus was out of focus and my enter key didn't
click it.

On 11/15/21, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 12:27 PM, Jackie wrote:


Truthfully, I don't think the vast majority of web devs know the
difference between clickable elements & checkboxes.
-
Jackie,

Even though his comment is meta-NVDA, I'll say not only is your observation
accurate, but it's more than just checkboxes.  In the last couple of years
it's become all the rage to present links not with click through text or a
navigation structure, but such that they look identical to a button to a
sighted user.  The only way I know that many of these are links instead of
buttons is that I've accustomed myself to looking at what shows up in the
browser status bar when I hover on them.

For someone such as myself, who tutors those new to screen readers, imagine
how insane it was when that practice started, unnanounced, and I'm saying,
"Navigate to the {insert what's presented here} button and activate it,"
when it wasn't a button and if the button quick navigation was being used to
try to "bounce over" to it you'd never land on it.  Let us simply say that
neither I, nor my students, were thrilled about this development.  Even
though I know about it, I'm still not.  Masking one type of element as
another is just not a good idea from purely a design perspective.

--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043

*The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.*

~ John F. Kennedy






Re: NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

Jackie
 

Exactly, Brian V. Sadly, I think a lot of web dev today is mostly
drag, point, click, w/very little knowledge &/or expertise of the
actual building blocks involved. & blind people using computers?
They're *really* in the dark about that--pun fully intended. &
furthermore, few give a rat's tail.

On 11/15/21, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 12:27 PM, Jackie wrote:


Truthfully, I don't think the vast majority of web devs know the
difference between clickable elements & checkboxes.
-
Jackie,

Even though his comment is meta-NVDA, I'll say not only is your observation
accurate, but it's more than just checkboxes.  In the last couple of years
it's become all the rage to present links not with click through text or a
navigation structure, but such that they look identical to a button to a
sighted user.  The only way I know that many of these are links instead of
buttons is that I've accustomed myself to looking at what shows up in the
browser status bar when I hover on them.

For someone such as myself, who tutors those new to screen readers, imagine
how insane it was when that practice started, unnanounced, and I'm saying,
"Navigate to the {insert what's presented here} button and activate it,"
when it wasn't a button and if the button quick navigation was being used to
try to "bounce over" to it you'd never land on it.  Let us simply say that
neither I, nor my students, were thrilled about this development.  Even
though I know about it, I'm still not.  Masking one type of element as
another is just not a good idea from purely a design perspective.

--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043

*The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.*

~ John F. Kennedy





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Re: Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 12:01 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I mean I can press the capslock twice
-
Or you could learn the desktop layout, an option which you adamantly refuse to do.

Choices have consequences, as you yourself have observed on many occasions.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 


Re: Improvements to the caps lock key and the NVDA key

 

On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 12:07 PM, tim wrote:
i also use it every time i"m righting a email or word processor.
-
You use CAPS LOCK that much?   I've never seen any of your messages here be in ALL CAPS.

In the real world of computing, which I've been a part of since the mid-1980s, I have very seldom observed anyone, with the rarest of exceptions, make frequent use of CAPS LOCK as very few people ever want their material to be in all caps, all the time.

SHIFT gets used constantly; CAPS LOCK, not so much.  And nothing you can say about your own patterns changes the general pattern.  If you're using CAPS LOCK much other than as an NVDA modifier key in laptop keyboard layout, you are an outlier.  And even if you're using NVDA laptop keyboard layout, you are an outlier when the entire NVDA user base is considered.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 

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