Date   

Re: Selecting Groups of Cells in Word Tables

 

Bhavya,

The simple answer to your question is, "Yes."  But this also depends on your comfort with selecting additional rows below the first one you've selected without an announcement from NVDA that it's happening.

I will try to describe this process as best I can.

Position yourself in R2C2, preferably at the far right side of whatever data has already been entered.  Hit SHIFT + Right Arrow and you wll get an announcement that the cell is selected.  If you happen to put yourself somewhere other than the far right side of your typed data, as you hit SHIFT + Right Arrow you will hear character by character being selected, until you hit the end of the cell content, then that next SHIFT + Right Arrow will just say "selected" and all characters in the cell will be selected.  For example, if you have a cell with 25.8 in it, and start with the cursor to the right of the 8, when you hit SHIFT + Right Arrow you will hear twenty-five point eight selected.   will let you play with putting your cursor in the middle, or to the left of the value and hitting SHIFT + Right Arrow to see how things vary.

Presuming R2C2 contains 25.8, and you've selected the cell in one fell swoop, if you keep SHIFT + Right Arrowing it will successively select each full cell to the right of the one that you last selected.  So if you'd selected R2C2, then SHIFT + Right Arrowed again, it would select the cell to the right, and if that cell contained 18.7, it NVDA immediately says 18.7 selected (and that is, of course, R2C3).

This is where the "you've got to be comfortable with silence and trust in how selection works parts come in.  Once you have R2C2 and R2C3 selected, SHIFT + Down Arrow will add to the selection R3C2 and R3C3 but not announce anything (usually, anyway).  Each successive SHIFT + DOWN Arrow press will select the corresponding two columns beneath the row you are currently sitting on.

The SHIFT + UP/DOWN/LEFT/RIGHT Arrow Key can be used to select and unselect cell "clumps", and if you overshoot, say you hit SHIFT + DOWN Arrow after you'd already selected R3C2 and R3C3 snagging their R4 analogs into your selection, you can unselect those both with a simple SHIFT + Up Arrow.

You'll have to play with this to get the feel.

I'm not sure where or how you intend to paste what you've selected and, I presume, copied.  Once I have some idea of what you intend to do, I can check out how various paste options would work depending on the context where they're being pasted.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 


Re: NVDA and LibreOffice Calc

 

Cearbhall,

A couple more general observations:

1.  Although LibreOffice is accessible, by and large, it is not as "nicely accessible" as Microsoft Office is.

2.  Microsoft Office, being the de facto standard Office suite of the world (and anyone who wants to argue that with me, don't bother, I've been in the private and public sector in the USA and paying attention to users overseas in these very forums - Microsoft Office vastly predominates) the various screen reader developers focus on compatibility with it, first, for very good reason.  When you've got limited resources, you focus where they have the most impact.

3.  Screen readers are directly dependent on what the software they're working with exposes to them for auditory presentation.  It doesn't matter if it's an XLSX file if LibreOffice does not expose certain elements of the file structure to NVDA (or JAWS, or whatever screen reader) for presentation to the user.  There's a lot of "handshaking" type information exchange, and if one hand is not extended, the other can't grab it.

My guess is that it's item number three in my above observations that accounts for the difference in what NVDA is able to present when using precisely the same file in MS-Excel versus LibreOffice.  It likely lies in what Excel versus LibreOffice exposes to NVDA.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 


Selecting Groups of Cells in Word Tables

Bhavya shah
 

Dear all,

I am using NVDA 2021.3 Beta 2, Word for Microsoft 365, and Windows 10.
I am working with multi-row and multi-column tables in a Word
document, and was wondering if there is a way to do the following (and
thereby similar tasks) without needing to copy contents over to Excel.
Consider a 4X4 table. I would like to select the central square of 4
cells, i.e. R2C2, R2C3, R3C2, and R3C3.

I would truly appreciate any inputs or thoughts on this.

Best Regards,
Bhavya Shah
Stanford University | Class of 2024
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bhavyashah125/


Re: Interview with Bhavya Shah - part 1

Mani Iyer
 

Hello Bhavya,
I read your interview and all I can say is as a former denizen of Mumbai I am very proud of you and wish you the very best in your career. Unlike you, I am trying to learn Windows and NVDA at a much later stage in life and look forward to this mailing list for support.
I also look forward to Part 3 and 3 of your interview. :)

Warmly,
mani

On Nov 19, 2021, at 4:11 PM, Bhavya shah <bhavya.shah125@...> wrote:

Dear all,

I just wanted to express my genuine gratitude for all that the NVDA
community has taught me over the years and for the kind words in this
thread. It is much appreciated.

Thanks.

On 11/14/21, Eduardo Fermiano Luccas <25102008luccas@...> wrote:
it would be nice without background music, it would be like a pody cast

Em seg., 15 de nov. de 2021 às 00:15, Quentin Christensen <
quentin@...> escreveu:

Thanks Marilyn!

Re the music - it's a tricky balance - some people prefer something and
some prefer silence. I try to keep it fairly soft and unobtrusive. It's
good to hear what people do and don't like though, thank you!

Quentin.

On Fri, Nov 12, 2021 at 4:11 PM Marilyn and Don Bilderback <
djbilderback@...> wrote:

Great interview. But, I could do without the background music! It
wasn’t too loud or energetic, I just don’t like distractions to hearing
the
main thing. And that is the words we hear. It is especially important
with interviewees who do not have English as their first language.



I loved hearing Bhavya’s voice and his wonderful story. I didn’t think
this type of interview was too long.



I think both of you did very well with questions and answers and I look
forward to the next one. By the way, quentin, you have an interesting
voice too!



*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *Quentin
Christensen
*Sent:* Thursday, November 11, 2021 5:17 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* [nvda] Interview with Bhavya Shah - part 1



Hi everyone,



Today I am excited to bring you another in our NVDA user stories series
-
this one the start of its own series! I chatted with community
contributor
Bhavya Shah recently, about how he came to NVDA and how he uses it, and
some of the many other aspects of his busy life. It was such a great
interview, that we didn't want to cut too much out to keep it short, so
instead we're making it a three part series. Part 1 is available now:



https://www.nvaccess.org/post/bhavya-shah-from-india-to-the-usa-part-1/



As always I'm interested in feedback, but also particularly this time,
on
the longer series format and whether that works for you or not?



Kind regards



Quentin.



--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager



Web: www.nvaccess.org

Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Web: www.nvaccess.org
Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/
User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>







--
Best Regards,
Bhavya Shah
Stanford University | Class of 2024
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bhavyashah125/





Re: keystroke for copy and pasting dialog boxes

Gene
 

And I think it’s worth noting that using caps lock as an NVDA key is off by default in both layouts and that it is very useful in the desktop layout if you turn it on there.  It isn’t just intended for use in the laptop layout. 
 
I use the desktop layout and I find execution of a number of NVDA commands much more convenient using the caps lock.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2021 3:33 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] keystroke for copy and pasting dialog boxes
 
Just to get up on my recent soapbox in several venues, it cannot (and I'd say should not) be presumed that any random laptop user is actually using laptop keyboard layout.

NVDA uses desktop layout by default on any laptop on which I've installed it and the majority of laptops have been sporting a full-size desktop type keyboard for some time now.

Laptops with classic laptop keyboard layout are the exception, not the rule.

Keyboard layout depends on the keyboard itself, not the thing it's connected to or built into.

One can use laptop layout with a full-size keyboard, but not vice versa.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 


Re: keystroke for copy and pasting dialog boxes

 

Just to get up on my recent soapbox in several venues, it cannot (and I'd say should not) be presumed that any random laptop user is actually using laptop keyboard layout.

NVDA uses desktop layout by default on any laptop on which I've installed it and the majority of laptops have been sporting a full-size desktop type keyboard for some time now.

Laptops with classic laptop keyboard layout are the exception, not the rule.

Keyboard layout depends on the keyboard itself, not the thing it's connected to or built into.

One can use laptop layout with a full-size keyboard, but not vice versa.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 


Re: Interview with Bhavya Shah - part 1

Bhavya shah
 

Dear all,

I just wanted to express my genuine gratitude for all that the NVDA
community has taught me over the years and for the kind words in this
thread. It is much appreciated.

Thanks.

On 11/14/21, Eduardo Fermiano Luccas <25102008luccas@...> wrote:
it would be nice without background music, it would be like a pody cast

Em seg., 15 de nov. de 2021 às 00:15, Quentin Christensen <
quentin@...> escreveu:

Thanks Marilyn!

Re the music - it's a tricky balance - some people prefer something and
some prefer silence. I try to keep it fairly soft and unobtrusive. It's
good to hear what people do and don't like though, thank you!

Quentin.

On Fri, Nov 12, 2021 at 4:11 PM Marilyn and Don Bilderback <
djbilderback@...> wrote:

Great interview. But, I could do without the background music! It
wasn’t too loud or energetic, I just don’t like distractions to hearing
the
main thing. And that is the words we hear. It is especially important
with interviewees who do not have English as their first language.



I loved hearing Bhavya’s voice and his wonderful story. I didn’t think
this type of interview was too long.



I think both of you did very well with questions and answers and I look
forward to the next one. By the way, quentin, you have an interesting
voice too!



*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *Quentin
Christensen
*Sent:* Thursday, November 11, 2021 5:17 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* [nvda] Interview with Bhavya Shah - part 1



Hi everyone,



Today I am excited to bring you another in our NVDA user stories series
-
this one the start of its own series! I chatted with community
contributor
Bhavya Shah recently, about how he came to NVDA and how he uses it, and
some of the many other aspects of his busy life. It was such a great
interview, that we didn't want to cut too much out to keep it short, so
instead we're making it a three part series. Part 1 is available now:



https://www.nvaccess.org/post/bhavya-shah-from-india-to-the-usa-part-1/



As always I'm interested in feedback, but also particularly this time,
on
the longer series format and whether that works for you or not?



Kind regards



Quentin.



--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager



Web: www.nvaccess.org

Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Web: www.nvaccess.org
Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/
User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>






--
Best Regards,
Bhavya Shah
Stanford University | Class of 2024
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bhavyashah125/


Re: NVDA and LibreOffice Calc

Cearbhall O'Meadhra
 

Brian,

 

Thanks for taking a shot at this, I appreciate the careful detail that you suggest.

 

I should explain that I am advising someone else who created this spreadsheet so my detail is somewhat limited.

The spreadsheet was created in LibreOffice calc. The person who created this is a recently established user of NVDA. He applied the NVDA + shift + c and NVDA + shift + r commands to try to set up the first row and column as column and row headers respectively. NVDA did not confirm them as being established. In fact, NVDA would only read out the cell coordinates even though he has Tables, Row and column headings and cell coordinates all checked in the Document settings of NVDA.

He saved the newly created spreadsheet as a .xlx which Calc indicated was an excel format.

 

He could not confirm whether the column and row headings had been set because his NVDA would only give him the cell coordinates and nothing about headings.

 

He subsequently sent the .xlsx format of the spreadsheet to me where I uploaded it into a full excel 2019 application. I found the row and column headings had, indeed, been set by him and worked perfectly with NVDA in my Excel program.

 

It is a mystery as to how he managed to set the row and column headings since NVDA refuses to speak them in the same spreadsheet in calc.

 

For the reasons outlined above, we are now asking if:

  1. Should NVDA be able to operate in LibreOffice Calc ;
  2. Are there NVDA keystrokes that will cause the row and column headings to be spoken in LibreOffice calc;
  3. Failing a positive answer to the last two questions, is there any way in LibreOffice calc to determine if the row and column headings have been successfully set?

 

 

All the best,

 

Cearbhall

 

m +353 (0)833323487 Ph: _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@...

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2021 6:36 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Libre Office Calc

 

Cearbhall,

I hate even giving this response, but it's a suggestion based on a hunch.  The commands you give from NVDA are, if memory serves, NVDA specific and are used on an Excel spreadsheet where the person who created the spreadsheet did not use the Excel row and column heading feature that carries this information along with the xlsx file itself so that other users don't have to go "the screen reader route" of defining these each time the file is opened.

Have you tried using the Excel built-in heading definition function, then opening a file saved with same in Calc to see if it makes any difference in what NVDA can pick up under Calc?
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 




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Quoting via the Groups.io Web Forum Interface [Spin-Off from Re: NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome]

 

On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 02:07 PM, Louise Pfau wrote:
It took me a while to figure out how to quote messages using the web interface.
-
Ah, another rare web interface user!!  Glad to see you here.

Since what follows is about how to use Groups.io itself, and I've always allowed "special dispensations" for this sort of off-topic topic, I'm allowing one for myself.

The easiest way to describe this, for those new to the web interface, is simply to highlight the portion of the previous message that you wish to quote, and by default the automatic quotation will be top quoted, then activate the reply button.  You can selectively quote as little as you need to or want to with ease just by highlighting that portion before hitting reply.

When you land in the reply box your insert cursor will already bee sitting below the inserted quoted material.  Another web interface user told me that it was confusing for him to determine where the actual quote ended, and my replies began, because the auto-quote feature does not put any text marker after the block quote.  That is how I've come to consistently put a single hyphen, on its own line, to serve the purpose of a marker after which the reply begins.  It seems to have worked based on his reports back to me.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 


Re: keystroke for copy and pasting dialog boxes

Gene
 

I don’t use the laptop layout so I’ll let others discuss that. 
 
There is an add-on which may let you do what you want.  You can read about it here. 
but it still is a good idea and, at times necessary, to know the actual review commands in NVDA itself. 
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2021 1:40 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] keystroke for copy and pasting dialog boxes
 
Alas, I don't know of this mode. How does it work and what are the laptop keystrokes? As I'm on a laptop here.

On 19 Nov 2021, at 19:35, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:


You can, buut do you know the review keys using the numpad in the desktop layout or the equivalent when in laptop layout?  At this point, I don’t know how much or just what explanation would be necessary.
 
Gene
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2021 12:47 PM
Subject: [nvda] keystroke for copy and pasting dialog boxes
 
Hello all


With nvda, is it possible to copy and paste dialog boxes content? If so,
I would greatly appreciate learning this.


The objective being, to copy and paste an error message to do with nvda
which I will detail in a new message.


Thanking you in advance.


Daniel






Re: keystroke for copy and pasting dialog boxes

Daniel McGee
 

Alas, I don't know of this mode. How does it work and what are the laptop keystrokes? As I'm on a laptop here. 

On 19 Nov 2021, at 19:35, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:


You can, buut do you know the review keys using the numpad in the desktop layout or the equivalent when in laptop layout?  At this point, I don’t know how much or just what explanation would be necessary.
 
Gene
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2021 12:47 PM
Subject: [nvda] keystroke for copy and pasting dialog boxes
 
Hello all


With nvda, is it possible to copy and paste dialog boxes content? If so,
I would greatly appreciate learning this.


The objective being, to copy and paste an error message to do with nvda
which I will detail in a new message.


Thanking you in advance.


Daniel






Re: NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

Gene
 

I sent it and I did send it to the wrong thread. 
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2021 1:07 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome
 
On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 01:11 AM, Gene wrote:
Not shared computers.  I’m saying that one person, as I understand it, isn’t allowed to have more than one phone on the same account.  I know that other people can share accounts if they have different phones, each with its own number.  But that isn’t what is wanted here.  The person wants another phone to move the sim card to and use if the main phone isn’t working.
This is the message that looks like it was sent to the wrong thread.  It took me a while to figure out how to quote messages using the web interface.  Sorry about that.

Louise


Re: keystroke for copy and pasting dialog boxes

Gene
 

You can, buut do you know the review keys using the numpad in the desktop layout or the equivalent when in laptop layout?  At this point, I don’t know how much or just what explanation would be necessary.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2021 12:47 PM
Subject: [nvda] keystroke for copy and pasting dialog boxes
 
Hello all


With nvda, is it possible to copy and paste dialog boxes content? If so,
I would greatly appreciate learning this.


The objective being, to copy and paste an error message to do with nvda
which I will detail in a new message.


Thanking you in advance.


Daniel






Re: NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

Louise Pfau
 

On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 01:11 AM, Gene wrote:
Not shared computers.  I’m saying that one person, as I understand it, isn’t allowed to have more than one phone on the same account.  I know that other people can share accounts if they have different phones, each with its own number.  But that isn’t what is wanted here.  The person wants another phone to move the sim card to and use if the main phone isn’t working.
This is the message that looks like it was sent to the wrong thread.  It took me a while to figure out how to quote messages using the web interface.  Sorry about that.

Louise


Re: Icon that appears on selecting a table in Word

Bhavya shah
 

Dear Quentin,

Thanks for the clear explanation. I think the floating toolbar that
appears on left-clicking that icon is what I was hoping to pull up.
While there are alternative ways to access those options, I think
there still is value to accessing these icons, and I was wondering if
there is a GitHub ticket reporting this. If not, would you be willing
to file one?

Thanks.

On 11/18/21, Quentin Christensen <quentin@...> wrote:
When you hover over a table or the focus is in a table, there is an icon at
the top left which is square with the move (four way arrows) symbol. You
can click on this and drag to move the table. I don't think there is an
equivalent keyboard command, aside from selecting, cutting and pasting.

If you left click on this icon, it brings up a kind of floating toolbar,
where you can select some of the font and paragraph options, some options
for deleting or inserting, as well as adding a comment or opening table
styles.

While the order is different, you can get to most of these options from the
context menu, and the rest (standard font and paragraph options) from the
ribbon.

There is a plain white square at the bottom right corner of the table.
Clicking and dragging it resizes the table, which you can otherwise do from
the Table Layout ribbon - alt, then j, then l. If you click on this
without dragging, it opens the same floating toolbar as described for the
other icon.

Regards

Quentin

On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 11:33 AM Bhavya shah <bhavya.shah125@...>
wrote:

Dear all,

I am currently using NVDA 2021.3 Beta 2 and Word for Microsoft 365 on
a Windows 10 machine. From a sighted person I am working with, I have
learnt that when I select an entire table (by going to browse mode and
setting start and end markers), a certain icon shows up which contains
several options. This icon gives options different from that which I
get on pressing the Applications key. If you have followed my question
so far, do you know of a way to access and click this icon
independently?

I would greatly appreciate any assistance.

Best Regards,
Bhavya Shah
Stanford University | Class of 2024
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bhavyashah125/





--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Web: www.nvaccess.org
Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/
User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>





--
Best Regards,
Bhavya Shah
Stanford University | Class of 2024
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bhavyashah125/


keystroke for copy and pasting dialog boxes

Daniel McGee
 

Hello all


With nvda, is it possible to copy and paste dialog boxes content? If so, I would greatly appreciate learning this.


The objective being, to copy and paste an error message to do with nvda which I will detail in a new message.


Thanking you in advance.


Daniel


Re: Question about updating from NVDA 2021.2 to 2021.3 with Windows 10 21H2

Louise Pfau
 

Hi.  There was a post on the Windows Access with screen readers list that looked like it came from another list detailing the problem with JAWS.  I didn't want to cross-post it so I figured I'd just ask a direct question.

Thanks,

Louise


Re: NVDA and Libre Office Calc

 

Cearbhall,

I hate even giving this response, but it's a suggestion based on a hunch.  The commands you give from NVDA are, if memory serves, NVDA specific and are used on an Excel spreadsheet where the person who created the spreadsheet did not use the Excel row and column heading feature that carries this information along with the xlsx file itself so that other users don't have to go "the screen reader route" of defining these each time the file is opened.

Have you tried using the Excel built-in heading definition function, then opening a file saved with same in Calc to see if it makes any difference in what NVDA can pick up under Calc?
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 


NVDA and Libre Office Calc

Cearbhall O'Meadhra
 

Hi,

 

Can NVDA work with Libre Office calc in the same way that it does with Microsoft Excel?

 

I particularly, need to use the row and column heading feature: NVDA + shift + c and NVDA + shift + r. These work fine in Excel but they do not seem to work in Calc even when I have saved the spread sheet as a .xlsx file.

 

All advice welcome.

 

All the best,

 

Cearbhall

 

m +353 (0)833323487 Ph: _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@...

 

 




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Re: NVDA's handling of checkboxes especially in Google Chrome

 

On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 12:05 PM, Steve Nutt wrote:
I sometimes wish I could get a handle on the “visual” layout of the screen, so said sighted person could say to me “It’s at top left”, but because we have no concept of where anything is on a web page visually, it does cause a barrier somewhat.
-
Steve,

I was going to send this reply as a private message, but reconsidered, since it could be of use to more than yourself.

When I was working at the Virginia School for the Deaf and the Blind, I was fairly "up close and personal" at times with both O&M instruction as well as things like classroom math instruction where tactile diagrams were in use.  In all of those cases, but particularly tactile diagrams, orientation in 2D space was used, and extensively, but access was by touch, of course.

But the basic concepts apply to the computer screen as well, if you think of it as a page, which in reality the screen really is.  Mind you, I doubt it's very useful to you to know that something you cannot access with the senses you possess is at "the upper left" but the concept of "the upper left" as a location is the same for a screen as it is for a physical page.  This allows you to have some rough, and very rough, ability to "pin down" the location that someone has described visually.  If you want to get into playing games with someone where that would not lead to possible disaster, you could use that knowlege to "point out" the rough location on the screen and, on occasion, you may hit the exact target.  But if you have a sighted assistant who wants to work with you with exactitude, it's not difficult for them to describe something as being "near the top left, about one inch down and two inches in," which, again, may be of no help to you directly, but can be of help to you if you need to give that same information to someone who's sighted who is not present at that moment and where you know you'll be making reference to the exact same material at a later point in time.  And you can really weird them out if you just casually toss out, "That {insert specific button, object, etc. here} is the red one thats about an inch down and two inches over from the upper left corner of the screen."  The slack-jawed, "How could you know that reaction," that you might get back, at least the first time you do this to someone sighted, can be quite amusing.  Practical jokes can be most amusing, particularly when they get played from very unexpected angles, and some are way more unexpected than others.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.

         ~ John F. Kennedy

 

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