Date   

Re: Configuration Profiles Limitation (Speech Dictionary)

 

On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 05:57 PM, Deenadayalan Moodley wrote:
Authors: Ricardo M. Leonarczyk and Rui Fontes
-
Also something changed with this.  Mr. Leonarczyk is still listed as the first author but the second is Łukasz Golonka.

https://github.com/RickLeon/applicationDictionary 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

 


Re: NVDA Chat Subgroup Addresses

 

NVDA Chat Subgroup Archive:  https://nvda.groups.io/g/chat/topics

NVDA Chat Subgroup Addresses

To join:  chat+subscribe@nvda.groups.io

To post:  chat@nvda.groups.io

To unsubscribe:  chat+unsubscribe@nvda.groups.io

To receive a message containing the group description, and a list of these commands:  chat+help@nvda.groups.io

To stop receiving messages via email (you may still read messages on the Web):  chat+nomail@nvda.groups.io

This can also be used to put a vacation stop on group messages, then use one of the addresses below to resume delivery in the format of your choice.

To receive each group messages individually:  chat+single@nvda.groups.io

This is the default delivery unless you send a message to one of the addresses that follows.

To receive group messages in an HTML formatted digest:  chat+fulldigest@nvda.groups.io

To receive group messages in a plain text digest:  chat+digest@nvda.groups.io

To receive a daily summary instead of individual messages:  chat+summary@nvda.groups.io

To receive only special messages:  chat+special@nvda.groups.io

To contact the group owner(s):  chat+owner@nvda.groups.io

--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

 


NVDA Chat Subgroup Addresses

Eduardo Fermiano Luccas
 

send me the addresses of the NVDA chat group and block this topic


Re: Configuration Profiles Limitation (Speech Dictionary)

 

I had not been aware of that add-on, and it is available via the NVDA Add-Ons Directory.

The latest version, however, is 1.4.  Download Link: https://nvda-addons.org/files/get.php?file=applicationdictionary 

I'd love to know how they implemented this "under the hood".
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

 


Re: File Explorer woes

Sarah k Alawami
 

Yeah, my trainers I had never differentiated  any of that.  They just gave use key strokes etc and never told us what was what. We had to figure that out ourselves. It took me 20 years? Ok maybe not 20 years, but it did take a while. A few years at least. I guess for me it just make sence and II never needed to know the difference. I never had the words as in my mind I just linked all of them to what they were Well, in all fairness, no one gave me the words until very very recently.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Monday, December 6, 2021 1:10 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] File Explorer woes

 

On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 02:46 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Hit alt tab, good, never have I heard of in my years of listening to other trainers, “hit alt tab, this is a windows keyboard shortcut.” Now hit capslock t. This is a screen reader shortcut.

-
And you probably never will at a keystroke by keystroke level, as that gets tedious very quickly.  But an instructor should introduce the concept of certain keystrokes being handled by Windows, your screen reader, and the application program being used, in that hierarchical order.  Then they should mention if you find yourself using the same keystroke almost literally everywhere, e.g., Tab, SHIFT + TAB, CTRL + X, CTRL + C, CTRL + V, you can pretty much know, because of the fact that they're the same, everywhere, that it's Windows (or, more generally, the operating system) that is processing those.  They don't change across contexts.

Screen reader commands are somewhat more obvious in that they only have an effect either on the screen reader behavior if they tweak settings, or only work if the screen reader is active, e.g., browse mode single letter shortcuts to jump between things like buttons, edit boxes, etc.  You don't have a screen reader running, they have zero effect.

And, finally, application shortcuts.  While I'll admit this is not necessarily clear cut all the time, most of the time it is.  Think of virtually anything that you do that isn't a ubiquitous Windows keyboard shortcut, or a screen reader shortcut, in any application you can name.  The things being done are specific to the application, turning on formatting, rewinding, deleting a file (or character), starting the ripping of a CD, and the list goes on and on.

I don't, with every keyboard shortcut, identify each and every one, each and every time, as to what processes it, as that often overwhelms as far as the student getting the actual result they need to be getting at that moment.  What I do is something like I said above, early on, and when the occasion arises where uncertainty exists, I make them reason out which of those three classes they believe the shortcut to fall into based upon exactly what it does and where it does it.  Most pick up on this very quickly indeed, and it makes their lives much easier over the long run.

Yes, none of the above is specific to NVDA, but it is so important to working with NVDA in the context of Windows and the applications you use it to access that I'm granting myself a special dispensation in order to make that information known, and plain (I hope).
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

 


Re: Configuration Profiles Limitation (Speech Dictionary)

Deenadayalan Moodley
 

Hi,

 

Have you looked at the application dictionaries addon? This allows you to create dictionaries for specific applications.

 

 

Here’s the original message sent to this list:

Hello friends!

 

Application Dictionary

Informations

• Authors: Ricardo M. Leonarczyk and Rui Fontes

• Version: 1.3

• Download stable version

• Compatibility: NVDA: 2019.1 to 2020.1

 

Usage

 

This simple add-on makes possible to create application-specific dictionaries for NVDA.

To use the add-on, just go to the application for wich you want a dictionary for, and press NVDA+shift+p. The normal NVDA dictionary dialog will open for you to add entries valid only for the active application (the application name should appear in the dialog title). The default add-on shortcut can be changed through NVDA's input gestures dialog: under configuration node, expand the node that says "Shows the application-specific dictionary dialog".

Command

 

"NVDA+Shift+p": Shows the application-specific dictionary dialog

 

Rui Fontes and Ricardo M. Leonarczyk


Re: Configuration Profiles Limitation (Speech Dictionary)

 

Thomas,

Given the level of sophistication you already seem to possess in regard to the dictionaries, could you not just create a "permanent" temporary voice or default dictionary file that you could move in to where it needs to be in the NVDA dictionary file hierarchy, unload NVDA, then reload it so that it has the entries you need for the given situation, then flip flop that with your original dictionary when you're done?

I get why you're asking what you're asking, but as far as NVDA being improved to allow it, that would likely be a long way off even if an issue were put in GitHub as I doubt the demand for such is very high.  That's not to say it wouldn't be useful, but it's not likely to be high priority.

A couple of simple batch files or powershell files would allow you to exit the running NVDA, move the existing dictionary to a storage spot, move the context specific dictionary to the necessary NVDA spot, then fire up NVDA again.  You would, of course, be reversing the swap in one (or more, depending on how many "specialty dictionaries" you have or need) of the batch files.

There seem to me to be ways to accomplish what you want using a single TTS, but they will involve workarounds that involve what NVDA itself loads when it's starting up as far as dictionaries go.

Just a thought.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

 


Re: a problem with speech dictionaries again.

 

On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 03:13 PM, Dan Beaver wrote:
Actually, I am trying to get it not to say the brackets.
-
What is your punctuation level set to?

NVDA is not reading the brackets, at all, for me.  It just says Blind Tee.

See section 12.2.2 of the NVDA user guide.  I strongly suspect this is linked somehow to your synth or, quoting from that section:  ""

The language for which symbol pronunciation is being edited will be shown in the dialog's title. Note that this dialog respects the "Trust voice's language for processing symbols and characters" option found in the Speech category of the NVDA Settings dialog; i.e. it uses the voice language rather than the NVDA global language setting when this option is enabled.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

 


Re: a problem with speech dictionaries again.

Dan Beaver
 

If I use anywhere instead of whole word and the replacement string is spelled out with no brackets then yes it works.  I just don't understand why it doesn't work with the type set to whole word.  The pattern string is definitely following a space and followed by a space.  Should work as a word.


Dan Beaver

On 12/6/2021 5:03 PM, Gene wrote:
Did the dictionary entry you made do that?  I’ve never tried to control punctuation with a dictionary entry.
 
Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Beaver
Sent: Monday, December 06, 2021 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] a problem with speech dictionaries again.
 

Well, I really only want them suppressed when they are in the subject of emails.  Sounds dumb I know but I hate having to listen to brackets around things in subject lines because I get so many emails from mailing lists with them.


Dan Beaver

On 12/6/2021 3:33 PM, Gene wrote:
This is an example of why it is important for people to provide details of what they want to do and not just ask how to do something when trying to solve a problem.  The method may not be what the person thinks or there may be a much better one.  You can change punctuation levels sso a specific punctuation mark won’t be spoken at a certain level or so that it will.  For example, if you are using the most level and you don’t want brackets spoken, you can set the level to all.  That will mean that it won’t be spoken at the most level but will when you are using the all level. 
 
I’ll write a description later today if that is indeed what you want, to change the punctuation level for the brackets but leave everything else alone.
 
Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Beaver
Sent: Monday, December 06, 2021 2:13 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] a problem with speech dictionaries again.
 

Actually, I am trying to get it not to say the brackets.  If I could get it to do that I would be happy to live with "blind-t".  It does not do this if I select whole word as the type. I just sort of randomly chose blind tech just because they discuss tech for the blind on that list.

 

Dan Beaver

On 12/6/2021 3:07 PM, Gene wrote:
Your screen-reader is saying blind-t correctly.  You evidently want it to say blindtech.  Of course, you may have it do so but that is a completely different list.
 
Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Beaver
Sent: Monday, December 06, 2021 2:01 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] a problem with speech dictionaries again.
 

Here you go Brian,

 

posting 1:

Sender: blind-t@groups.io
Subject: Re: [blind-t] Another sort of, audible? question

 

 

posting 2:

Sender: blind-t@groups.io
Subject: Re: [blind-t] iPhone Status Bar

Dan Beaver

On 12/6/2021 12:32 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Dan,

It would be immensely helpful if you would post two items in relation to this issue:

1. The "From" address of one of the messages that is not being read as you'd like it to be.

2. The full, unaltered, Subject line from the same message.

Post two of each, though the From should be the same, if it's easy enough to do.  This is a problem that's not going to be solved in the abstract and where having concrete, actual examples helps in finding a solution.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

 

-- 
Dan Beaver (KA4DAN)
-- 
Dan Beaver (KA4DAN)
-- 
Dan Beaver (KA4DAN)
-- 
Dan Beaver (KA4DAN)


Re: Configuration Profiles Limitation (Speech Dictionary)

Thomas N. Chan
 

Hi Brian,
just as I guess. The only way to accomplish  that is through another TTS.

Temporary will not work because I use putty and reading of specific apps on the day to day bases. 
What I did was I put all those entry on  the default and use this particular portable NVDA while I am reading those logs. When I am done, I just open the other copy while I am reading email.

The configuration profile for my case is set to automatic to the specific program I will be using for this task.

The purpose for this configuration profile, in my opinion, is so that I can change certain  parameters or certain things I would like to read in a certain way and not be restricted to just  TTS parameters etc.

While reading tables on the website which you frequently   visit, you might not even want to read the column or row header, but in some cases, you might need to.
I am just pulling out example of situation I would use

thanks for your pointer of this matter
Regards,
Thomas N. Chan


On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 3:29 AM Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
Thomas,

The following is not meant to be snarky in any way, but on the whole, no, it doesn't make sense.

Configuration profiles can be set up to either be manually triggered (which is usually the exception) or automatically triggered (more common) when you land in an application.  The things specific to that profile will only apply when that profile is active.

Now, on to what I think you're asking (and I could be wrong):  If you're looking for the same Synth to pronounce the exact same thing differently depending on what application you're in, would only be possible using "clever trickery."  The dictionaries, temporary, default, and voice are separate.  Both the temporary, which vanishes if you restart NVDA and default apply no matter what voice and what app  you're in.  Now, the voice dictionary applies in any app you're in where you happen to use the specific voice, so if you were willing to change voices based upon the application you're currently using, you could limit substitutions to occurring only when that specific voice is in use.  I'm not sure if a change in voice, as opposed to a change in synth, can be made automatic in a profile, but the change in synth can, and you could just make sure you're using a specific voice with that synth for which you created the necessary voice dictionary entries.

I hope this helped, and I hope I've managed to actually get at what you were hoping to do.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

 


Re: File Explorer woes

 

On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 05:01 PM, Gene wrote:
I think that mentioning the importance of listening for information about the control or structure you are in in unfamiliar settings is important.
-
It's not just important, it's critical!

Joseph Lee coined the term "information blackout" to describe the fact that there are parts of a screen (or dialog, or whatever) that the sighted just take in as a part of the whole that a screen reader user has no idea even exists unless the screen reader is allowed to go on for long enough to announce it.  This really cannot be fixed in any meaningful sense.

It's funny, but one of the problems I find I have when teaching those new to a screen reader, and particularly if a synth with a very human sounding voice is in use, is getting them to understand that it's perfectly OK to hit CTRL or ESC to shut the screen reader up.  They treat screen reader output as though a real human is reading it to them rather than software.  While I understand why that is, you also have to stop thinking that way or you end up wasting a ton of time.

But the converse is also true, particularly when someone is entering "new territory."  I know that for "old territory" you neither need nor want to listen to the screen reader blithely babble on about what you already know, and know well.  But when something is entirely fresh, and particularly if that something is likely to be repeatedly visited as time goes on, spending a bit of preliminary time to get the full lay of the land is time well spent.  Once you know what you're skipping/missing by interrupting the screen reader, that's fine, but not so much before.  I've had way more than one, "I never knew that was there," declaration because the user had never once allowed the screen reader to read through, from beginning to end.  And this was often after years of having used the venue where that previously unknown thing has always been present.

I guess this is a meta version of "tool to task."  When something's new, taking the time to listen more than you ever will again is often helpful.  When something's not new, shushing the screen reader and getting straight to where you want to be is most often the better course of action.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

 


Re: a problem with speech dictionaries again.

Gene
 

Did the dictionary entry you made do that?  I’ve never tried to control punctuation with a dictionary entry.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Beaver
Sent: Monday, December 06, 2021 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] a problem with speech dictionaries again.
 

Well, I really only want them suppressed when they are in the subject of emails.  Sounds dumb I know but I hate having to listen to brackets around things in subject lines because I get so many emails from mailing lists with them.


Dan Beaver

On 12/6/2021 3:33 PM, Gene wrote:
This is an example of why it is important for people to provide details of what they want to do and not just ask how to do something when trying to solve a problem.  The method may not be what the person thinks or there may be a much better one.  You can change punctuation levels sso a specific punctuation mark won’t be spoken at a certain level or so that it will.  For example, if you are using the most level and you don’t want brackets spoken, you can set the level to all.  That will mean that it won’t be spoken at the most level but will when you are using the all level. 
 
I’ll write a description later today if that is indeed what you want, to change the punctuation level for the brackets but leave everything else alone.
 
Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Beaver
Sent: Monday, December 06, 2021 2:13 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] a problem with speech dictionaries again.
 

Actually, I am trying to get it not to say the brackets.  If I could get it to do that I would be happy to live with "blind-t".  It does not do this if I select whole word as the type. I just sort of randomly chose blind tech just because they discuss tech for the blind on that list.

 

Dan Beaver

On 12/6/2021 3:07 PM, Gene wrote:
Your screen-reader is saying blind-t correctly.  You evidently want it to say blindtech.  Of course, you may have it do so but that is a completely different list.
 
Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Beaver
Sent: Monday, December 06, 2021 2:01 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] a problem with speech dictionaries again.
 

Here you go Brian,

 

posting 1:

Sender: blind-t@groups.io
Subject: Re: [blind-t] Another sort of, audible? question

 

 

posting 2:

Sender: blind-t@groups.io
Subject: Re: [blind-t] iPhone Status Bar

Dan Beaver

On 12/6/2021 12:32 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Dan,

It would be immensely helpful if you would post two items in relation to this issue:

1. The "From" address of one of the messages that is not being read as you'd like it to be.

2. The full, unaltered, Subject line from the same message.

Post two of each, though the From should be the same, if it's easy enough to do.  This is a problem that's not going to be solved in the abstract and where having concrete, actual examples helps in finding a solution.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

 

-- 
Dan Beaver (KA4DAN)
-- 
Dan Beaver (KA4DAN)
-- 
Dan Beaver (KA4DAN)


Re: File Explorer woes

Gene
 

You seem to be implying something that is worth briefly mentioning.  A lot of the time, if you hear something a program or Windows is doing, such as if you move to a list or bring up a menu, you will hear something announced like list or edit field.   A lot of people have problems because they don’t let everything read in unfamiliar dialogs or structures so they don’t know how they can move or what they can do where they are when they move. 
 
I don’t want to make too much of what we are discussing and make it appear more difficult than it is.  As you learn, you will develop a good idea of what commands are what but I think that mentioning the importance of listening for information about the control or structure you are in in unfamiliar settings is important.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, December 06, 2021 3:33 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] File Explorer woes
 
On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 04:22 PM, Gene wrote:
category of screen-reader keys are those that provide information a blind user can’t get or can’t get with any convenience in other ways.
-
Gene, not disagreeing with you at all.  But I'll use my prior paradigm, if you try these with a screen reader off, or with a screen reader other than the one you actually use on (which would be the more likely scenario), do they do the same thing, something different, or nothing?

Although I know there is plenty of overlap in certain screen readers and their informational commands, it's not perfect.

You're 100% correct about there being this class of command, but if you're used to applying logic to try to figure out "who's handling what" based on my prior paradigm, in almost all cases, you will settle on "screen reader" pretty darned quickly.  And you can eliminate Windows very, very quickly as well, as most of these commands are not only screen reader commands, but screen reader commands that work only in selected contexts.  And that's why it is sometimes difficult to know whether it may be a screen reader command versus an application program command, as the possibility that the screen reader is just reading something you've triggered from the application is a distinct possibility.

But you and I have long been "on the same page" about it being essential to know about the various levels of keyboard command processing and how to figure out which is at play when you're uncertain.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

 


Re: NVDA not always reading cell contents in MS Excel?

Louis Maher
 

You are welcome Louise.

 

Regards

Louis Maher

Phone: 713-444-7838

E-mail: ljmaher03@...

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Louise Pfau
Sent: Monday, December 6, 2021 2:18 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA not always reading cell contents in MS Excel?

 

On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 04:31 AM, Louis Maher wrote:

This problem comes up periodically.  You can try unchecking the box which says “allow editing directly in cells”.  In Excel 365, do this:

Open an Excel spreadsheet. 

Type alt + f. Up arrow to options, hit enter. Down arrow to advanced. Tab until you find the box which says “allow editing directly in cells. Uncheck that

box. Shift + Tab until you reach OK. Hit enter.

I'm glad to know this is happening in newer versions of Excel as well, and I'm not the only one.  Thanks for the specific instructions.  I knew the setting had been mentioned in prior topics (not necessarily on this list), but I don't recall if there were specific instructions on how to find it.  I hope this fixes the problem I'm having with editing too.  The wording for the command sounds counterintuitive, because the box has to be unchecked to allow editing in cells.

Thanks,

Louise


Re: a problem with speech dictionaries again.

Dan Beaver
 

Well, I really only want them suppressed when they are in the subject of emails.  Sounds dumb I know but I hate having to listen to brackets around things in subject lines because I get so many emails from mailing lists with them.


Dan Beaver

On 12/6/2021 3:33 PM, Gene wrote:
This is an example of why it is important for people to provide details of what they want to do and not just ask how to do something when trying to solve a problem.  The method may not be what the person thinks or there may be a much better one.  You can change punctuation levels sso a specific punctuation mark won’t be spoken at a certain level or so that it will.  For example, if you are using the most level and you don’t want brackets spoken, you can set the level to all.  That will mean that it won’t be spoken at the most level but will when you are using the all level. 
 
I’ll write a description later today if that is indeed what you want, to change the punctuation level for the brackets but leave everything else alone.
 
Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Beaver
Sent: Monday, December 06, 2021 2:13 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] a problem with speech dictionaries again.
 

Actually, I am trying to get it not to say the brackets.  If I could get it to do that I would be happy to live with "blind-t".  It does not do this if I select whole word as the type. I just sort of randomly chose blind tech just because they discuss tech for the blind on that list.


Dan Beaver

On 12/6/2021 3:07 PM, Gene wrote:
Your screen-reader is saying blind-t correctly.  You evidently want it to say blindtech.  Of course, you may have it do so but that is a completely different list.
 
Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Beaver
Sent: Monday, December 06, 2021 2:01 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] a problem with speech dictionaries again.
 

Here you go Brian,

 

posting 1:

Sender: blind-t@groups.io
Subject: Re: [blind-t] Another sort of, audible? question

 

 

posting 2:

Sender: blind-t@groups.io
Subject: Re: [blind-t] iPhone Status Bar

Dan Beaver

On 12/6/2021 12:32 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Dan,

It would be immensely helpful if you would post two items in relation to this issue:

1. The "From" address of one of the messages that is not being read as you'd like it to be.

2. The full, unaltered, Subject line from the same message.

Post two of each, though the From should be the same, if it's easy enough to do.  This is a problem that's not going to be solved in the abstract and where having concrete, actual examples helps in finding a solution.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

 

-- 
Dan Beaver (KA4DAN)
-- 
Dan Beaver (KA4DAN)
-- 
Dan Beaver (KA4DAN)


Re: File Explorer woes

 

On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 04:22 PM, Gene wrote:
category of screen-reader keys are those that provide information a blind user can’t get or can’t get with any convenience in other ways.
-
Gene, not disagreeing with you at all.  But I'll use my prior paradigm, if you try these with a screen reader off, or with a screen reader other than the one you actually use on (which would be the more likely scenario), do they do the same thing, something different, or nothing?

Although I know there is plenty of overlap in certain screen readers and their informational commands, it's not perfect.

You're 100% correct about there being this class of command, but if you're used to applying logic to try to figure out "who's handling what" based on my prior paradigm, in almost all cases, you will settle on "screen reader" pretty darned quickly.  And you can eliminate Windows very, very quickly as well, as most of these commands are not only screen reader commands, but screen reader commands that work only in selected contexts.  And that's why it is sometimes difficult to know whether it may be a screen reader command versus an application program command, as the possibility that the screen reader is just reading something you've triggered from the application is a distinct possibility.

But you and I have long been "on the same page" about it being essential to know about the various levels of keyboard command processing and how to figure out which is at play when you're uncertain.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

 


Re: File Explorer woes

Gene
 

Also, lists, by their nature, can’t teach Windows basics well.  Lists answer various questions but they don’t present a body of knowledge in an organized manner.  I took the time to answer the question not to criticize you for asking it, but to explain important information about how to learn Windows well and save a lot of trouble now and later.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, December 06, 2021 2:57 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] File Explorer woes
 
On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 03:48 PM, Mani Iyer wrote:
I am sorry I asked this question.
-
Mani,

Truly, there is nothing to apologize for.   It seems like you are a neophyte, and the best thing you can do in that situation is to ask questions where you believe answers will be forthcoming.

Sometimes what's forthcoming is a reference to somewhere else that is likely to be a better information source than your chosen starting point.  That's not an attack on you, nor to make you feel bad, but to point you to the best resources.

As you learn more, the expectations do change.  As you develop additional sophistication in using Windows, NVDA, and various application programs it's expected that more forethought will go into both the asking of questions and where you elect to ask them.  Right now, you're just starting out, so people are trying to help you out the best ways they know how.  Sometimes that means sending you elsewhere for help that they cannot give.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

 


Re: File Explorer woes

Gene
 

Another category of screen-reader keys are those that provide information a blind user can’t get or can’t get with any convenience in other ways.  The read title bar command is such a command.  It gives the user information a sighted person can just look at but since the title bar is displayed information and there is no command for a sighted person to access it since all the person does is look at the screen, a screen-reader command is provided to announce what it says. 
 
Read status line is another such command. 
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, December 06, 2021 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] File Explorer woes
 
On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 02:46 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
Hit alt tab, good, never have I heard of in my years of listening to other trainers, “hit alt tab, this is a windows keyboard shortcut.” Now hit capslock t. This is a screen reader shortcut.
-
And you probably never will at a keystroke by keystroke level, as that gets tedious very quickly.  But an instructor should introduce the concept of certain keystrokes being handled by Windows, your screen reader, and the application program being used, in that hierarchical order.  Then they should mention if you find yourself using the same keystroke almost literally everywhere, e.g., Tab, SHIFT + TAB, CTRL + X, CTRL + C, CTRL + V, you can pretty much know, because of the fact that they're the same, everywhere, that it's Windows (or, more generally, the operating system) that is processing those.  They don't change across contexts.

Screen reader commands are somewhat more obvious in that they only have an effect either on the screen reader behavior if they tweak settings, or only work if the screen reader is active, e.g., browse mode single letter shortcuts to jump between things like buttons, edit boxes, etc.  You don't have a screen reader running, they have zero effect.

And, finally, application shortcuts.  While I'll admit this is not necessarily clear cut all the time, most of the time it is.  Think of virtually anything that you do that isn't a ubiquitous Windows keyboard shortcut, or a screen reader shortcut, in any application you can name.  The things being done are specific to the application, turning on formatting, rewinding, deleting a file (or character), starting the ripping of a CD, and the list goes on and on.

I don't, with every keyboard shortcut, identify each and every one, each and every time, as to what processes it, as that often overwhelms as far as the student getting the actual result they need to be getting at that moment.  What I do is something like I said above, early on, and when the occasion arises where uncertainty exists, I make them reason out which of those three classes they believe the shortcut to fall into based upon exactly what it does and where it does it.  Most pick up on this very quickly indeed, and it makes their lives much easier over the long run.

Yes, none of the above is specific to NVDA, but it is so important to working with NVDA in the context of Windows and the applications you use it to access that I'm granting myself a special dispensation in order to make that information known, and plain (I hope).
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

 


Re: File Explorer woes

 

On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 02:46 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
Hit alt tab, good, never have I heard of in my years of listening to other trainers, “hit alt tab, this is a windows keyboard shortcut.” Now hit capslock t. This is a screen reader shortcut.
-
And you probably never will at a keystroke by keystroke level, as that gets tedious very quickly.  But an instructor should introduce the concept of certain keystrokes being handled by Windows, your screen reader, and the application program being used, in that hierarchical order.  Then they should mention if you find yourself using the same keystroke almost literally everywhere, e.g., Tab, SHIFT + TAB, CTRL + X, CTRL + C, CTRL + V, you can pretty much know, because of the fact that they're the same, everywhere, that it's Windows (or, more generally, the operating system) that is processing those.  They don't change across contexts.

Screen reader commands are somewhat more obvious in that they only have an effect either on the screen reader behavior if they tweak settings, or only work if the screen reader is active, e.g., browse mode single letter shortcuts to jump between things like buttons, edit boxes, etc.  You don't have a screen reader running, they have zero effect.

And, finally, application shortcuts.  While I'll admit this is not necessarily clear cut all the time, most of the time it is.  Think of virtually anything that you do that isn't a ubiquitous Windows keyboard shortcut, or a screen reader shortcut, in any application you can name.  The things being done are specific to the application, turning on formatting, rewinding, deleting a file (or character), starting the ripping of a CD, and the list goes on and on.

I don't, with every keyboard shortcut, identify each and every one, each and every time, as to what processes it, as that often overwhelms as far as the student getting the actual result they need to be getting at that moment.  What I do is something like I said above, early on, and when the occasion arises where uncertainty exists, I make them reason out which of those three classes they believe the shortcut to fall into based upon exactly what it does and where it does it.  Most pick up on this very quickly indeed, and it makes their lives much easier over the long run.

Yes, none of the above is specific to NVDA, but it is so important to working with NVDA in the context of Windows and the applications you use it to access that I'm granting myself a special dispensation in order to make that information known, and plain (I hope).
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

 


Re: Nvda and Libreoffice

Jarek.Krcmar
 

Hi David,

the cells in Microsoft Excel are in order, but if I open Libreoffice and there Libre calc, there I can't with arrows read the cells, Nvda is silent.


I have now the version of Libreoffice 7.2.4.

Jarek

Dne 06.12.2021 v 14:47 David Goldfield napsal(a):

Hello. From NVDA's Document Settings ensure that Cell Coordinates is checked.
Once I did this NVDA 2021.3 RC 1 identified the cell reference of Calc 7.2.3.


David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
JAWS Certified, 2019
Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive emails regarding news and events in the blindness assistive technology field.
Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jarek.Krcmar
Sent: Monday, December 6, 2021 8:20 AM
To: Nvda <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [nvda] Nvda and Libreoffice

Hello everyone,

I am an user of LibreOffice. Since Version 7.2.3 Nvda doesn't in the Libre Calc say the fields A1, B1, etc.

I don't know, where is an error.

Do you have an idea, please?

--
Jarek












__________ ESET Internet Security __________

Tato zprava byla zkontrolovana, a nebyly v ni nalezeny zadne hrozby.



Verze detekcniho jadra: 24409 (20211206)

https://www.eset.cz

--
Jarek

9141 - 9160 of 99467