Date   

Re: To install 21.3

Chris
 

Just update over the older version, and most add-ons have been updated to comply with 21.3 in any case

 

 

 

From: Howard Traxler
Sent: 08 December 2021 22:19
To: NVDA
Subject: [nvda] To install 21.3

 

Hello all,

I'm still using 21.1 because an addon I use does not work under version

2.  I've now found a replacement for the addon and I'd like to install

21.3.  Must I remove the old version or just install over it?  I'd like

to use the OCR addon but someone said it takes 21.3. Maybe it's time to

move forward.

 

Howard

 

 

 

 

 


Re: new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

Gene
 

I wasn’t talking about whether there are features such as headings or if its just text.  I have no objection to documents that read as just text.  I was considering documents that have columns on the pages and where the columns aren’t properly placed.  I was saying, perhaps not clearly, that I don’t know how many PDF documents have columns that cause problems.  The PDF documents ai’ve read are generally accessible as you are describing, but I haven’t worked with enough to generalize.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2021 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.
 
On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 03:46 PM, Gene wrote:
But without experience of a large number of PDF documents, I wouldn’t assume that.
 
-
Gene, I can say, with complete honesty, that I cannot count the number of PDF documents I've dealt with, and in the context of a screen reader.  The general hierarchy of accessibility has been:

1. Image Scanned - Inaccessible unless OCRed, and if OCRed, much depends on when as far as how well that works.

2. OCR processed by something designed to do so -  If it's a fairly modern OCR engine, things like columnar text are generally handled with very good flow.  If it was an early OCR engine, not so much.  Document will not have, to quote Mr. Moxley, "proper heading structure, table structures (with appropriately marked headers), accessible links, alt text etc."  OCR engines are generally not that sophisticated, though most can detect tables these days and set them up as such.

3. Created as PDF in a PDF Editor or MS-Word:  100% basic accessibility, but not necessarily "prettified" with all of the above noted features.  I've created quite a few tutorials in MS-Word that I've then saved as PDF that are one to maybe three pages long, and step by step, and I certainly never go to that level of elaboration because of what the content is and how it's to be accessed.  People creating things like church bulletins, flyers, and lots of other simple documents that are often of a "read once and then done" nature are unlikey to ever do so, either.

3. Created as PDF in a PDF Editor and of significant length, and intended for publication and/or a long archival life:  100% maximally accessible with all the features Mr. Moxley noted.

The fact of the matter is that I don't disagree with him, one bit, about what needs to be done to create a maximally accessible PDF if one is creating it from scratch and it is of any significant length.  What I do disagree with is that this is necessary for the vast majority of very short PDFs out there that may or may not have been created as such.

When it comes to PDFs, and particularly PDFs of unknown origin, it's completely unrealistic to call them inaccessible if they don't have the prettification.  I have scanned, and with OCR scanning at the time of scan, things like owner's manuals and service manuals that are hundreds of pages long.  They will not ever have all of the prettification because it's just not possible, but their text content is complete, and searchable.  That's accessible, and in most instances way more than just minimally accessible.

It's way faster for me to find what I'm looking for in these scanned PDFs because they are searchable than it is to find it using the source material, as often certain bits of information are put where you really wouldn't expect to find it and there's noting in the table of contents nor index or indices that would indicate that.  But if you know the term you're looking for, you can blaze through hundreds of pages very quickly using search functionality.  That's accessible whether you're doing this the sighted way or using a screen reader to do the same thing.  It may not be as nice as it would be had the source material been created as PDF, but there will never come a time where every PDF started out life that way nor where whatever was used to OCR it could possibly produce something with all the features in characteristic of PDF born as PDF.
 
There's basic accessibility and publisher-layout-quality accessibility.  They're not the same thing.  We should, of course, constantly encourage the use of publisher-layout-quality with regard to accessibility where such is warranted.  My 2-page flyer for next week's picnic, as a fictional example, would not be one of those times.  If it's entirely readable, in the expected order, that's good enough.

The perfect should never be the enemy of the good.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

 


Re: new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

 

On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 03:46 PM, Gene wrote:
But without experience of a large number of PDF documents, I wouldn’t assume that.
 
-
Gene, I can say, with complete honesty, that I cannot count the number of PDF documents I've dealt with, and in the context of a screen reader.  The general hierarchy of accessibility has been:

1. Image Scanned - Inaccessible unless OCRed, and if OCRed, much depends on when as far as how well that works.

2. OCR processed by something designed to do so -  If it's a fairly modern OCR engine, things like columnar text are generally handled with very good flow.  If it was an early OCR engine, not so much.  Document will not have, to quote Mr. Moxley, "proper heading structure, table structures (with appropriately marked headers), accessible links, alt text etc."  OCR engines are generally not that sophisticated, though most can detect tables these days and set them up as such.

3. Created as PDF in a PDF Editor or MS-Word:  100% basic accessibility, but not necessarily "prettified" with all of the above noted features.  I've created quite a few tutorials in MS-Word that I've then saved as PDF that are one to maybe three pages long, and step by step, and I certainly never go to that level of elaboration because of what the content is and how it's to be accessed.  People creating things like church bulletins, flyers, and lots of other simple documents that are often of a "read once and then done" nature are unlikey to ever do so, either.

3. Created as PDF in a PDF Editor and of significant length, and intended for publication and/or a long archival life:  100% maximally accessible with all the features Mr. Moxley noted.

The fact of the matter is that I don't disagree with him, one bit, about what needs to be done to create a maximally accessible PDF if one is creating it from scratch and it is of any significant length.  What I do disagree with is that this is necessary for the vast majority of very short PDFs out there that may or may not have been created as such.

When it comes to PDFs, and particularly PDFs of unknown origin, it's completely unrealistic to call them inaccessible if they don't have the prettification.  I have scanned, and with OCR scanning at the time of scan, things like owner's manuals and service manuals that are hundreds of pages long.  They will not ever have all of the prettification because it's just not possible, but their text content is complete, and searchable.  That's accessible, and in most instances way more than just minimally accessible.

It's way faster for me to find what I'm looking for in these scanned PDFs because they are searchable than it is to find it using the source material, as often certain bits of information are put where you really wouldn't expect to find it and there's noting in the table of contents nor index or indices that would indicate that.  But if you know the term you're looking for, you can blaze through hundreds of pages very quickly using search functionality.  That's accessible whether you're doing this the sighted way or using a screen reader to do the same thing.  It may not be as nice as it would be had the source material been created as PDF, but there will never come a time where every PDF started out life that way nor where whatever was used to OCR it could possibly produce something with all the features in characteristic of PDF born as PDF.
 
There's basic accessibility and publisher-layout-quality accessibility.  They're not the same thing.  We should, of course, constantly encourage the use of publisher-layout-quality with regard to accessibility where such is warranted.  My 2-page flyer for next week's picnic, as a fictional example, would not be one of those times.  If it's entirely readable, in the expected order, that's good enough.

The perfect should never be the enemy of the good.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

 


Re: Sometimes NVDA only reads first line of an email in Outlook 2019 : depends on state of Outlook?

Milton Charlton
 

With a little more sleuthing I found that when Outlook is first started, NVDA will read an entire email when that email is selected by hitting Enter. When I try to read the same email again, only the first line is read out.  Now, if I exit Outlook and restart Outlook, that same email will be read out entirely but only the first time.  This behaviour is identical with HTML and with Plain Text emails.  It does not matter if the email is marked as Unread or not. Read All will read the entire email but only  after the first line is read out  so I get the first line twice.
The behaviour is not affected by disabling Outlook Extended addon.

NVDA  2021.3
Windows 10 Pro Version 10.0.19044 Build 19044
 


Re: Associations with edit boxes and labels

 

On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 04:10 PM, Greg Williams wrote:
I am guessing that this was a mistake in the coding given the effort to make the other form fields accessible. Unfortunately, both methods for associating a label with a form field failed in these instances.
-
We're in complete agreement.  Part of my first comment in this topic was, "I'm not good enough at HTML code to know where "the start of the problem" is, but I suspect something in how the page is coded has, effectively, rendered some of the edit box labels invisible to the screen reader and, as a result, it's not reading them."

I find that in more cases than not it's sloppy HTML that lies at the root of issues like this.  And, sometimes, even "sloppy" is way too strong.  It's very easy to skip your own standard practices with regard to accessibility when something is rushed or if you're otherwise distracted.  It's an "oops."
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

 


will station playlist's latest version work now

ken lawrence
 

Hi ken here one of my fello DJs with TAFN radio recently tried to update to station playlist version 6.0 and it didn’t work with NVDA she had to roll all the way back to 2019 and back up to 5.5 station playlist I just got the latest update for NVDA 2021.3 can my friend move up to SPL 6.0 now? A recent add on update did have a new SPL extention. 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 


Re: new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

Cearbhall O'Meadhra
 

Steve,

In my setup, using Windows 10 and a canon flatbed scanner, I just press the scan button on my flatbed; this automatically passes to the PC as an image file held as a.pdf which is immediately thrown into focus, no matter what other application is open. I can then turn to the PC, press NVDA+Shift+r and convert the image into a txt virtual file that can be quickly highlighted and saved to clipboard from which it can be pasted into a simple text file.

The only thing a batch tool could do for me is to activate the OCR command. So, I'm happy!


All the best,

Cearbhall

m +353 (0)833323487 Ph: _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@...

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Wednesday, December 8, 2021 5:01 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

Hi,

Great stuff well done.

All you need now is an option to scan from a camera or flatbed scanner connected to the computer. Could be NVDA Shift A for Acquire image from camera or scanner? Then you have a complete scanning package for NVDA.

All the best

Steve

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-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Simone Dal Maso
Sent: 08 December 2021 09:10
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

Hello,

I am part of a developer team of a new addon.


I'd like to inform you that yesterday we published the first version of Nao, NVDA Advanced OCR.

I paste the little readme file and at last I put the link for download.

Feedback and suggestions are welcome!


Nao is an addon that improves the standard OCR capabilities that NVDA provides on modern Windows versions. While NVDA standard command uses Windows OCR to recognize the screen, NAO is able to make the OCR on files saved on your hard drive or USB devices. Use NVDA-Shift-R to recognize any sorts of images and pdf! Simply put the focus / cursor on the file you desire, don't open it, but hit NVDA-Shift-r. The document will be recognized and a simple text editfield will appear, allowing you to read the entire content. Nao is able to handle also multipage pdf, so if you have a not accessible document, don't worry, Windows OCR will be able to make yhr entire work.


System Requirements
The addon works on Windows 10 and Windows 11 systems, since they have OCR capabilities builtin. Nao is compatible from NVDA version 2021.2, so don't use older versions of the screen reader. Note that Nao works with Windows Explorer, on desktop, or with Total Commander filemanager; don't use other software like 7zip or Winrar , since they are not supported.

Features and commands
• NVDA + Shift + R: recognize any sorts of images and pdf from file system; ◦ PgUp / PgDown: move the cursor between real pages of a multipages document.
◦ NVDA + Shift + P: report page number related to the cursor position, in a multipage document.
• NVDA + Shift + Ctrl + R: take a full screen shot and recognize it.


Github repository:

https://github.com/sharkboyto/nao

Latest version:

https://github.com/sharkboyto/nao/releases/download/v_2021.1.07/nao-2021.1.07.nvda-addon














--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


Re: Associations with edit boxes and labels

Greg Williams
 


On 12/6/2021 11:48 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
What's really interesting is that three edit boxes, full name, email address, and twitter name are the boxes sans any labels announced, but when you land in the edit box for Any extra things you think we should know and are in auto switch mode and it switches to focus mode it is announced.  Truly weird in terms of accessibility in a form.

-

As Jonathan mentioned, most of the input fields have aria-label attributes which are announced when tabbing. For some reason, these three do not have an aria-label. They also do not have an ID attribute which matches the for attribute in the label tag; this means that even though there is a label, it is not announced when tabbing. I am guessing that this was a mistake in the coding given the effort to make the other form fields accessible. Unfortunately, both methods for associating a label with a form field failed in these instances.

Greg



Re: new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

Gene
 

For people having this problem, using the desktop layout, Numpad plus, the long key immediately above numpad enter, will read all the text in an object.  It will probably read the entire document if you wish.  My guess is that it is one single object. 
 
I don’t know the laptop layout command.
 
The object navigator moves as text is spoken and you can move using object navigation movement keys and begin reading where you move to.  Also, if you stop reading because of some interruption or to do something, and you don’t move the position of the navigator, you can resume reading where you left off.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2021 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.
 
Good day Simone,

After testing the NAO addon, the following can be reported:
1. Once a document is recognised and you get the results virtual buffer, pressing your arrows exits the results buffer.
2. If you use the review cursor, the entire document can be read.

Great work and I hope this will only make it better.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Simone Dal Maso
Sent: Wednesday, 08 December 2021 11:10
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

Hello,

I am part of a developer team of a new addon.


I'd like to inform you that yesterday  we published the first version of Nao, NVDA Advanced OCR.

I paste the little readme file and at last I put the link for download.

Feedback and suggestions are welcome!


Nao is an addon that improves the standard OCR capabilities that NVDA provides on modern Windows versions. While NVDA standard command uses Windows OCR to recognize the screen, NAO is able to make the OCR on files saved on your hard drive or USB devices. Use NVDA-Shift-R to recognize any sorts of images and pdf! Simply put the focus / cursor on the file you desire, don't open it, but hit NVDA-Shift-r. The document will be recognized and a simple text editfield will appear, allowing you to read the entire content. Nao is able to handle also multipage pdf, so if you have a not accessible document, don't worry, Windows OCR will be able to make yhr entire work.


System Requirements
The addon works on Windows 10 and Windows 11 systems, since they have OCR capabilities builtin. Nao is compatible from NVDA version 2021.2, so don't use older versions of the screen reader. Note that Nao works with Windows Explorer, on desktop, or with Total Commander filemanager; don't use other software like 7zip or Winrar , since they are not supported.

Features and commands
• NVDA + Shift + R: recognize any sorts of images and pdf from file system; ◦ PgUp / PgDown: move the cursor between real pages of a multipages document.
◦ NVDA + Shift + P: report page number related to the cursor position, in a multipage document.
• NVDA + Shift + Ctrl + R: take a full screen shot and recognize it.


Github repository:

https://github.com/sharkboyto/nao

Latest version:

https://github.com/sharkboyto/nao/releases/download/v_2021.1.07/nao-2021.1.07.nvda-addon











Re: new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

Gene
 

I haven’t worked with enough PDF documents to say how many read properly.  I have seen discussions now and then where people perform OCR on PDF documents containing text in columns on pages because the text is better decolumnized by the OCR program.  I’ve had the same experience working with PDF documents of librettos containing such columns.
 
It may be that the majority, perhaps most, PDF documents read properly in that the text appears in logical order.  But without experience of a large number of PDF documents, I wouldn’t assume that.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2021 2:30 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.
 
On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 03:17 PM, <benmoxey@...> wrote:
In fact, if tagged correctly, you get the best reading experience when loaded in Adobe Reader DC; they navigate like a well-designed website.
-
And this comes back to what one defines as accessible.

There are plenty of PDFs that "aren't pretty," that I won't deny, but you can read the content with a screen reader.  That's accessible.

If we want to talk about maximally accessible and nicely formatted, that's something else entirely than "just accessible."
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

 


Re: new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

 

On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 03:41 PM, <benmoxey@...> wrote:
I respectfully disagree, but that is all I will say on the topic because I realise that the thought you may be incorrect has never occurred to you.
-
So, you don't respectfully disagree.  And that's fine, but cut the BS.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

 


Re: new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

abdul muhamin
 

Well, thanks for the response, keep up the good work.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Simone Dal Maso
Sent: Wednesday, December 8, 2021 8:45 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

 

 

Il 08/12/2021 15:43, abdul muhamin ha scritto:

Hi, I tried to read the file, but the processing is taking too much time, specially for the large pdf files. can you make it a bit faster?

 

Hello,

I think it depends from the file size.

Normally, the speed is about 1 page per second.

But if you for example have a scanned pdf of 50 or more  megabytes, it takes more time and you can wait 30 seconds.

We can think a procedure for big file, thank you for your report.

 

 

 


Re: new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

benmoxey@...
 

Hi Brian

 

I respectfully disagree, but that is all I will say on the topic because I realise that the thought you may be incorrect has never occurred to you.

 

All the best.

 

Ben

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, 9 December 2021 7:30 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

 

On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 03:17 PM, <benmoxey@...> wrote:

In fact, if tagged correctly, you get the best reading experience when loaded in Adobe Reader DC; they navigate like a well-designed website.

-
And this comes back to what one defines as accessible.

There are plenty of PDFs that "aren't pretty," that I won't deny, but you can read the content with a screen reader.  That's accessible.

If we want to talk about maximally accessible and nicely formatted, that's something else entirely than "just accessible."
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

 


Re: new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

abdul muhamin
 

Hello, I’m neither complaining, nor criticizing the developer or the addon, I’m just giving my suggestion that’s all. Its free, it doesn’t mean it cannot fulfil the expectations, it will be more better then the paid one, if we give suggestions to the dev.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Nimer Jaber
Sent: Wednesday, December 8, 2021 7:51 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

 

I suggest you make it faster. Or, better yet, stop complaining about something you're getting for free that other tools don't give you. Nobody forces you to use it.

 

On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 6:43 AM abdul muhamin <abdulmuhamin600@...> wrote:

Hi, I tried to read the file, but the processing is taking too much time, specially for the large pdf files. can you make it a bit faster?

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Brian Moore
Sent: Wednesday, December 8, 2021 5:57 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

 

Hi.  I have no tried this on several files, all pdf and get exactly the same result.  The ocr process happens and I hear "result document" and the first line of the file but as soon as I press an arrow key to read the rest, the result vanishes and I am taken back to the folder from where I initiated the ocr.

 

Brian.

Contact me on skype: brian.moore
follow me on twitter:
http://www.twitter.com/bmoore123

On 2021-12-08 7:52 a.m., Brian Moore wrote:

Hi.  sure, will try a different file.

I am using

Version 21H1 (OS Build 19043.1348)

 

Will test other files and report back.

Brian.

Contact me on skype: brian.moore
follow me on twitter:
http://www.twitter.com/bmoore123

On 2021-12-08 7:45 a.m., Eduardo Fermiano Luccas wrote:

i think brian is using windows 10 21h1

 

Em qua., 8 de dez. de 2021 às 09:42, Simone Dal Maso <simone.dalmaso@...> escreveu:


Il 08/12/2021 12:31, Brian Moore ha scritto:
> I press an arrow key, I am taken back to the contents of my downloads
> folder and not the ocr result.  Anyone else had a similar experience?


Hello Brian, this never happened during test, so it is quite interesting.

Can you try with other files?

We should investigate about this, so please if you make other tests
don't esitate to write!

What you are using? win10/11?

Thank you.







 


 

--

Best,

Nimer Jaber

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free, open-source, and versatile screen reader for Windows, visit nvaccess.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

Thank you, and have a great day!

 


Re: new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

Deenadayalan Moodley
 

Good day Simone,

After testing the NAO addon, the following can be reported:
1. Once a document is recognised and you get the results virtual buffer, pressing your arrows exits the results buffer.
2. If you use the review cursor, the entire document can be read.

Great work and I hope this will only make it better.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Simone Dal Maso
Sent: Wednesday, 08 December 2021 11:10
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

Hello,

I am part of a developer team of a new addon.


I'd like to inform you that yesterday we published the first version of Nao, NVDA Advanced OCR.

I paste the little readme file and at last I put the link for download.

Feedback and suggestions are welcome!


Nao is an addon that improves the standard OCR capabilities that NVDA provides on modern Windows versions. While NVDA standard command uses Windows OCR to recognize the screen, NAO is able to make the OCR on files saved on your hard drive or USB devices. Use NVDA-Shift-R to recognize any sorts of images and pdf! Simply put the focus / cursor on the file you desire, don't open it, but hit NVDA-Shift-r. The document will be recognized and a simple text editfield will appear, allowing you to read the entire content. Nao is able to handle also multipage pdf, so if you have a not accessible document, don't worry, Windows OCR will be able to make yhr entire work.


System Requirements
The addon works on Windows 10 and Windows 11 systems, since they have OCR capabilities builtin. Nao is compatible from NVDA version 2021.2, so don't use older versions of the screen reader. Note that Nao works with Windows Explorer, on desktop, or with Total Commander filemanager; don't use other software like 7zip or Winrar , since they are not supported.

Features and commands
• NVDA + Shift + R: recognize any sorts of images and pdf from file system; ◦ PgUp / PgDown: move the cursor between real pages of a multipages document.
◦ NVDA + Shift + P: report page number related to the cursor position, in a multipage document.
• NVDA + Shift + Ctrl + R: take a full screen shot and recognize it.


Github repository:

https://github.com/sharkboyto/nao

Latest version:

https://github.com/sharkboyto/nao/releases/download/v_2021.1.07/nao-2021.1.07.nvda-addon


Re: new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

 

On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 03:17 PM, <benmoxey@...> wrote:
In fact, if tagged correctly, you get the best reading experience when loaded in Adobe Reader DC; they navigate like a well-designed website.
-
And this comes back to what one defines as accessible.

There are plenty of PDFs that "aren't pretty," that I won't deny, but you can read the content with a screen reader.  That's accessible.

If we want to talk about maximally accessible and nicely formatted, that's something else entirely than "just accessible."
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

 


Re: new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

 

On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 03:17 PM, <benmoxey@...> wrote:
It is simply not true that documents that are originally created as PDFs are generally accessible.
-
Seriously, show me one.  PDFs created as PDFs are text based.  The PDF Editors are creating something akin to what a word processor does, but intended for publishing.  That's what "originally created as PDFs" means.

Scanned PDFs, whether image scanned or OCR scanned, were not originally created as PDFs.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

 


new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

Jay Pellis
 

Hello all

This add on is amazing, did a scan of a pdf I've been having trouble with and it got all of the information I was missing using other programs like kurzweil.  I assume there is no way to copy and paste the information from the results area?  I tried using control shift end from the beginning and it said characters were selected but copy/paste unfortunately did nothing.  Can this perhaps be included in a future update?

Thank you so much to the developers for your time and effort.

Regards

Jay

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of benmoxey@...
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2021 2:17 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

 

Hi everyone

 

First, a big thank you to all of the developers who freely give their time to create these excellent additions to NVDA. I’m looking forward to trying this one. 😊

 

Second, Joseph’s comment about educating content creators about the importance of accessibility is extremely relevant. It is simply not true that documents that are originally created as PDFs are generally accessible.

 

When a PDF is created accessibly, they have a proper heading structure, table structures (with appropriately marked headers), accessible links, alt text etc. In fact, if tagged correctly, you get the best reading experience when loaded in Adobe Reader DC; they navigate like a well-designed website. The reason that loading PDFs in a web browser has become so popular in the blind community is because they are so often created with little accessibility in mind. The browser presents the documents contents the way it thinks it’s supposed to be displayed. This is why you often notice that there’s a heading structure that doesn’t really make sense, no images  and no tables.

 

I think this is an important point to make because there is a bit of a perception out there that being able to access some information is good enough. We in the blind community deserve better and it starts with education. These add-ons are a very valuable and appreciated work-around in the meantime.

 

All the best.

 

Ben

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, 9 December 2021 4:30 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

 

On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 12:13 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

For PDF files, provided that they are generated with accessibility in mind,

-
Joseph,

I haven't seen any PDF originally created as PDF that's not accessible, fully accessible, with the possible exception of the lack of Alt Text for images.

That being said, I always presume these OCR functions are going to need to exist for a very long time simply because there exist so many image scanned PDF files that were created long before OCR became a standard part of scanning (or even existed).

I'll tell you what I told several of my former clients who were grad students, and who routinely were handed ancient image scanned PDFs that have been in use for years to decades:  OCR process them, save the text layer with the file itself, then try like the dickens to get whoever it is that maintains the archive from which the original was pulled to ditch that original and replace it with the OCRed version.

It's really not anyone's fault that inaccessible PDFs exist that were scanned in "another era."  But those documents can easily be made accessible via OCR done so that the result can be saved as part of the source file.  Those who are the digital archivists should be willing to replace inaccessible versions with accessible ones with just the slightest bit of vetting of the result.  And if they don't want to accept an OCRed version from someone else, a system needs to be in place to report image scanned PDFs for permanent OCR processing by staff, and that it be done promptly.  This isn't time intensive when you're working on demand, rather than a search and destroy mission for every PDF that might be image scanned.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

 


Re: new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

benmoxey@...
 

Hi everyone

 

First, a big thank you to all of the developers who freely give their time to create these excellent additions to NVDA. I’m looking forward to trying this one. 😊

 

Second, Joseph’s comment about educating content creators about the importance of accessibility is extremely relevant. It is simply not true that documents that are originally created as PDFs are generally accessible.

 

When a PDF is created accessibly, they have a proper heading structure, table structures (with appropriately marked headers), accessible links, alt text etc. In fact, if tagged correctly, you get the best reading experience when loaded in Adobe Reader DC; they navigate like a well-designed website. The reason that loading PDFs in a web browser has become so popular in the blind community is because they are so often created with little accessibility in mind. The browser presents the documents contents the way it thinks it’s supposed to be displayed. This is why you often notice that there’s a heading structure that doesn’t really make sense, no images  and no tables.

 

I think this is an important point to make because there is a bit of a perception out there that being able to access some information is good enough. We in the blind community deserve better and it starts with education. These add-ons are a very valuable and appreciated work-around in the meantime.

 

All the best.

 

Ben

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, 9 December 2021 4:30 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

 

On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 12:13 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

For PDF files, provided that they are generated with accessibility in mind,

-
Joseph,

I haven't seen any PDF originally created as PDF that's not accessible, fully accessible, with the possible exception of the lack of Alt Text for images.

That being said, I always presume these OCR functions are going to need to exist for a very long time simply because there exist so many image scanned PDF files that were created long before OCR became a standard part of scanning (or even existed).

I'll tell you what I told several of my former clients who were grad students, and who routinely were handed ancient image scanned PDFs that have been in use for years to decades:  OCR process them, save the text layer with the file itself, then try like the dickens to get whoever it is that maintains the archive from which the original was pulled to ditch that original and replace it with the OCRed version.

It's really not anyone's fault that inaccessible PDFs exist that were scanned in "another era."  But those documents can easily be made accessible via OCR done so that the result can be saved as part of the source file.  Those who are the digital archivists should be willing to replace inaccessible versions with accessible ones with just the slightest bit of vetting of the result.  And if they don't want to accept an OCRed version from someone else, a system needs to be in place to report image scanned PDFs for permanent OCR processing by staff, and that it be done promptly.  This isn't time intensive when you're working on demand, rather than a search and destroy mission for every PDF that might be image scanned.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

 


NVDA 2021.3, Still no NLS E-Reader listed in the list of braille displays to choose from, what a bummer.

Shawn
 

Hi, the library swore up and down when I got the E-Reader that NLS E-reader  would be available in NVDA’s list of  braille displays, so I was hoping with the NVDA update it would finally appear, no dice. Anyone know what’s up with that? I can’t get on the mailing list for the E-Reader at all, so trying here again. I tried BRLTTY a couple months ago but it was useless. The reader refused to recognize it at all. If I set braille to automatic, standard hid display or HumanWare Brailliant BI/B series / BrailleNote Touch the reader just sits there with please wait forever. It used to actually show me braille when I chose automatic or HumanWare Brailliant BI/B series / BrailleNote Touch, but the keys on the e-reader would not advance to the next line in the document at all. They do so with the IPhone. I’ve tried with Bluetooth and USB with the same result.

Shawn Klein

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

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