Date   

Re: News – NV Access - NVDA 2021.3 Released #nvaccessnewsfeed

Quentin Christensen
 

Hi Niranjan,

Firstly thank you for your support!  We really appreciate it.

We haven't changed anything on the site from our end.  I did have another user from India contact me recently who was unable to donate.  What we found was that there had been changes in the rules in India around donations.  The user had to enter or update their tax identification number into PayPal, and then they could donate.  Could you please log into your PayPal account and check if there is anything like that you can update they might want?

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Thu, Dec 9, 2021 at 3:50 AM Niranjan Vala <niranjan.v.94@...> wrote:
Hello Quentin, I am Niranjan from India and I would like to inquire about the donation options on nvaccess.org. When I tried the single donation option and tried payment via paypal, It said "Payments are not accepted from this country yet". It even doesn't work if I try to pay via credit or debit card options. What should we Indians do if we want to donate?

On Wed, 8 Dec 2021 at 17:43, nvda@nvda.groups.io Integration <nvda@nvda.groups.io> wrote:

NVDA 2021.3 Released

By Reef Turner

NV Access is pleased to announce that version 2021.3 of NVDA, the free screen reader for Microsoft Windows, is now available for download. We encourage all users to upgrade to this version.

Highlights

This release introduces support for the new HID Braille specification. This specification aims to standardize support for Braille Displays without needing individual drivers. There are updates to eSpeak-NG and LibLouis, including new Russian and Tshivenda tables. Error sounds can be enabled in stable builds of NVDA via a new advanced settings option. Say all in Word now scrolls the view to keep the current position visible. There are lots of improvements when using Office with UIA. One UIA fix is that Outlook now ignores more types of layout tables in messages.

Important Note: Due to an update to our security certificate, a small number of users get an error when NVDA 2021.2 checks for updates. NVDA now asks Windows to update security certificates, which will prevent this error in the future. Affected users will need to download this update manually.

Please note, after updating any software, it is a good idea to restart the computer. Restart by going to the Shutdown dialog, selecting “restart” and pressing ENTER. Updating software can change files which are in use. This can lead to instability and strange behaviour which is resolved by rebooting. This is the first thing to try if you do notice anything odd after updating.

Links

While downloading NVDA, please consider becoming a monthly donor. Contributions like yours help NV Access continue our important work.

We also have a range of training material in the NV Access Shop to help you increase your skills with NVDA. Start with the popular Basic Training for NVDA in electronic text, audio and braille. Save with the NVDA Productivity Bundle. This includes Basic Training, all our Microsoft Office training, and telephone support.

Close-up photograph of NVDA logo in notification area.

Close-up photograph of NVDA logo in notification area.



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Cheers,

Niranjan G Vala



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Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Re: Sometimes NVDA only reads first line of an email in Outlook 2019 : depends on state of Outlook?

Sarah k Alawami
 

I’ve never actually encountered this at all, but when I enter on a message I just hit caps lock a and read to my hart’s content.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Wednesday, December 8, 2021 2:46 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Sometimes NVDA only reads first line of an email in Outlook 2019 : depends on state of Outlook?

 

I don’t get the  same experience.

 

So long as I read an HTML message, for me, it is always read, but a text message, never.

 

In any event, NVDA is pretty naff with Outlook compared with JAWS I have to say, especially JAWS 2022, which is lightning fast and reads any Email as soon as it is open.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Milton Charlton
Sent: 08 December 2021 21:49
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Sometimes NVDA only reads first line of an email in Outlook 2019 : depends on state of Outlook?

 

With a little more sleuthing I found that when Outlook is first started, NVDA will read an entire email when that email is selected by hitting Enter. When I try to read the same email again, only the first line is read out.  Now, if I exit Outlook and restart Outlook, that same email will be read out entirely but only the first time.  This behaviour is identical with HTML and with Plain Text emails.  It does not matter if the email is marked as Unread or not. Read All will read the entire email but only  after the first line is read out  so I get the first line twice.
The behaviour is not affected by disabling Outlook Extended addon.

NVDA  2021.3
Windows 10 Pro Version 10.0.19044 Build 19044

 


Re: new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

Sarah k Alawami
 

Actually, I have used one thing that did create the correct tables and charts in a scanned pdf that my teacher gave me. The program is no more now but I  successfully used this program to write and site correct page numbers of these scanned pdfs, and some were quite old. I dunno how it did it, but it tagged everything correctly. Ok, it didn’t describe the images that were present in the images but I didn’t need that at the time, just the text which was perfect. All headings were correct, tables, charts, etc. if anyone is interested the app was called docuscan. It has now been replaced by I forget what, but it just came out this year and I get the feeling I might need to use this in my studies over the next few years.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, December 8, 2021 1:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

 

On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 03:46 PM, Gene wrote:

But without experience of a large number of PDF documents, I wouldn’t assume that.

 

-
Gene, I can say, with complete honesty, that I cannot count the number of PDF documents I've dealt with, and in the context of a screen reader.  The general hierarchy of accessibility has been:

1. Image Scanned - Inaccessible unless OCRed, and if OCRed, much depends on when as far as how well that works.

2. OCR processed by something designed to do so -  If it's a fairly modern OCR engine, things like columnar text are generally handled with very good flow.  If it was an early OCR engine, not so much.  Document will not have, to quote Mr. Moxley, "proper heading structure, table structures (with appropriately marked headers), accessible links, alt text etc."  OCR engines are generally not that sophisticated, though most can detect tables these days and set them up as such.

3. Created as PDF in a PDF Editor or MS-Word:  100% basic accessibility, but not necessarily "prettified" with all of the above noted features.  I've created quite a few tutorials in MS-Word that I've then saved as PDF that are one to maybe three pages long, and step by step, and I certainly never go to that level of elaboration because of what the content is and how it's to be accessed.  People creating things like church bulletins, flyers, and lots of other simple documents that are often of a "read once and then done" nature are unlikey to ever do so, either.

3. Created as PDF in a PDF Editor and of significant length, and intended for publication and/or a long archival life:  100% maximally accessible with all the features Mr. Moxley noted.

The fact of the matter is that I don't disagree with him, one bit, about what needs to be done to create a maximally accessible PDF if one is creating it from scratch and it is of any significant length.  What I do disagree with is that this is necessary for the vast majority of very short PDFs out there that may or may not have been created as such.

When it comes to PDFs, and particularly PDFs of unknown origin, it's completely unrealistic to call them inaccessible if they don't have the prettification.  I have scanned, and with OCR scanning at the time of scan, things like owner's manuals and service manuals that are hundreds of pages long.  They will not ever have all of the prettification because it's just not possible, but their text content is complete, and searchable.  That's accessible, and in most instances way more than just minimally accessible.

It's way faster for me to find what I'm looking for in these scanned PDFs because they are searchable than it is to find it using the source material, as often certain bits of information are put where you really wouldn't expect to find it and there's noting in the table of contents nor index or indices that would indicate that.  But if you know the term you're looking for, you can blaze through hundreds of pages very quickly using search functionality.  That's accessible whether you're doing this the sighted way or using a screen reader to do the same thing.  It may not be as nice as it would be had the source material been created as PDF, but there will never come a time where every PDF started out life that way nor where whatever was used to OCR it could possibly produce something with all the features in characteristic of PDF born as PDF.
 
There's basic accessibility and publisher-layout-quality accessibility.  They're not the same thing.  We should, of course, constantly encourage the use of publisher-layout-quality with regard to accessibility where such is warranted.  My 2-page flyer for next week's picnic, as a fictional example, would not be one of those times.  If it's entirely readable, in the expected order, that's good enough.

The perfect should never be the enemy of the good.
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The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

 


Re: Sometimes NVDA only reads first line of an email in Outlook 2019 : depends on state of Outlook?

Steve Nutt
 

I don’t get the  same experience.

 

So long as I read an HTML message, for me, it is always read, but a text message, never.

 

In any event, NVDA is pretty naff with Outlook compared with JAWS I have to say, especially JAWS 2022, which is lightning fast and reads any Email as soon as it is open.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Milton Charlton
Sent: 08 December 2021 21:49
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Sometimes NVDA only reads first line of an email in Outlook 2019 : depends on state of Outlook?

 

With a little more sleuthing I found that when Outlook is first started, NVDA will read an entire email when that email is selected by hitting Enter. When I try to read the same email again, only the first line is read out.  Now, if I exit Outlook and restart Outlook, that same email will be read out entirely but only the first time.  This behaviour is identical with HTML and with Plain Text emails.  It does not matter if the email is marked as Unread or not. Read All will read the entire email but only  after the first line is read out  so I get the first line twice.
The behaviour is not affected by disabling Outlook Extended addon.

NVDA  2021.3
Windows 10 Pro Version 10.0.19044 Build 19044

 


Re: new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

Steve Nutt
 

Too many keystrokes.

In JAWS I can press Insert Space, then O, then A, select my scanner and scan away.

Would be nice to have it in NVDA too.

All the best

Steve

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-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Cearbhall O'Meadhra
Sent: 08 December 2021 21:25
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

Steve,

In my setup, using Windows 10 and a canon flatbed scanner, I just press the scan button on my flatbed; this automatically passes to the PC as an image file held as a.pdf which is immediately thrown into focus, no matter what other application is open. I can then turn to the PC, press NVDA+Shift+r and convert the image into a txt virtual file that can be quickly highlighted and saved to clipboard from which it can be pasted into a simple text file.

The only thing a batch tool could do for me is to activate the OCR command. So, I'm happy!


All the best,

Cearbhall

m +353 (0)833323487 Ph: _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@...


-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Wednesday, December 8, 2021 5:01 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

Hi,

Great stuff well done.

All you need now is an option to scan from a camera or flatbed scanner connected to the computer. Could be NVDA Shift A for Acquire image from camera or scanner? Then you have a complete scanning package for NVDA.

All the best

Steve

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-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Simone Dal Maso
Sent: 08 December 2021 09:10
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

Hello,

I am part of a developer team of a new addon.


I'd like to inform you that yesterday we published the first version of Nao, NVDA Advanced OCR.

I paste the little readme file and at last I put the link for download.

Feedback and suggestions are welcome!


Nao is an addon that improves the standard OCR capabilities that NVDA provides on modern Windows versions. While NVDA standard command uses Windows OCR to recognize the screen, NAO is able to make the OCR on files saved on your hard drive or USB devices. Use NVDA-Shift-R to recognize any sorts of images and pdf! Simply put the focus / cursor on the file you desire, don't open it, but hit NVDA-Shift-r. The document will be recognized and a simple text editfield will appear, allowing you to read the entire content. Nao is able to handle also multipage pdf, so if you have a not accessible document, don't worry, Windows OCR will be able to make yhr entire work.


System Requirements
The addon works on Windows 10 and Windows 11 systems, since they have OCR capabilities builtin. Nao is compatible from NVDA version 2021.2, so don't use older versions of the screen reader. Note that Nao works with Windows Explorer, on desktop, or with Total Commander filemanager; don't use other software like 7zip or Winrar , since they are not supported.

Features and commands
• NVDA + Shift + R: recognize any sorts of images and pdf from file system; ◦ PgUp / PgDown: move the cursor between real pages of a multipages document.
◦ NVDA + Shift + P: report page number related to the cursor position, in a multipage document.
• NVDA + Shift + Ctrl + R: take a full screen shot and recognize it.


Github repository:

https://github.com/sharkboyto/nao

Latest version:

https://github.com/sharkboyto/nao/releases/download/v_2021.1.07/nao-2021.1.07.nvda-addon














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Re: Problem with Say All in Word stopping seems to be resolved

Quentin Christensen
 

Thanks Robert, glad to hear it is behaving now!

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 11:39 PM Robert Portal <portalrm56@...> wrote:

Dear Quentin,

 

I reported a problem with Say all in Word some time ago where, in a large text file Say all always stopped after about 5 or 6 minutes reading. I had assumed that this was something peculiar to my system especially since it happened in Jaws as well as in NVDA (and I do have a number of programmes which might conflict with each other – it would take too long to explain why I keep it that way).

 

The problem seems to have been resolved in the 2021.3 release and I assume it is likely to be connected with NVDA now scrolling the Word view to keep up with the text being read while in Say all.

 

Many thanks for the good work

 

Robert

 

 

 

Da: nvda@nvda.groups.io Per conto di Quentin Christensen
Inviato: mercredi 8 décembre 2021 12:28
A: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Oggetto: [nvda] NVDA 2021.3 Released!

 

Hi everyone,

 

NV Access is pleased to announce that version 2021.3 of NVDA, the free screen reader for Microsoft Windows, is now available for download. We encourage all users to upgrade to this version.

Highlights:
This release introduces support for the new HID Braille specification. This specification aims to standardize support for Braille Displays without needing individual drivers. There are updates to eSpeak-NG and LibLouis, including new Russian and Tshivenda tables. Error sounds can be enabled in stable builds of NVDA via a new advanced settings option. Say all in Word now scrolls the view to keep the current position visible. There are lots of improvements when using Office with UIA. One UIA fix is that Outlook now ignores more types of layout tables in messages.

Read the full details, and download from: https://www.nvaccess.org/post/nvda-2021-3/

 

Kind regards

 

Quentin.

 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 



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Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Re: new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Brian,

 

I think they read better in Chrome than DC to be honest.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 08 December 2021 20:30
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

 

On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 03:17 PM, <benmoxey@...> wrote:

In fact, if tagged correctly, you get the best reading experience when loaded in Adobe Reader DC; they navigate like a well-designed website.

-
And this comes back to what one defines as accessible.

There are plenty of PDFs that "aren't pretty," that I won't deny, but you can read the content with a screen reader.  That's accessible.

If we want to talk about maximally accessible and nicely formatted, that's something else entirely than "just accessible."
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The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

 


Re: new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

Steve Nutt
 

And this should be quite do-able through the TWAIN interface, but you’d need a combo box to allow you to select the scanner source before starting the scan.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 08 December 2021 18:54
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

 

On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 01:08 PM, Mani Iyer wrote:

In case of a flat bed scanner, wouldn’t the scanner software be able to create a PDF of the scan?

-
Yes, but that means firing up the scanner software and actually creating a PDF file that's unlikely to be wanted over the long term.

What I'm saying is that it would be lovely to be able to plop say, your water bill, on your scanner or under your camera, run an NVDA OCR on it, get whatever you need at that moment, then just let the result disappear, as you'll never refer to it again.  There are cameras that don't create image files if a scanner function is part of them, they just "scan" differently.

It would just be really handy for quick and dirty, one-time reads on documents that need to be scanned and without the need to involve other software or to potentially have to save results you really don't want to save.
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Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

 


Re: new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

Steve Nutt
 

What scanner software? I was talking about using the add-on to access the camera or scanner directly through its software interface, bypassing the need to use it. JAWS does this very successfully.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mani Iyer via groups.io
Sent: 08 December 2021 18:08
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

 

Brian,

In case of a flat bed scanner, wouldn’t the scanner software be able to create a PDF of the scan?  And the camera would create the image file.  So it looks like the add-on can be used as a mail reader. Am I missing something?

 

Mani

 on. 

 



On Dec 8, 2021, at 12:05 PM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

 

On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 12:01 PM, Steve Nutt wrote:

All you need now is an option to scan from a camera or flatbed scanner connected to the computer.

-
That would be great, wouldn't it?  Would certainly make dealing with daily mail easier (among other things).
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

 

 


Re: new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Brian,

 

The problem I see with accepting OCR’d PDFs is you generally lose formatting with OCR, unless the app you use is very good.

 

This is also true of JAWS and NVDA’s OCR models, they both lose formatting when you OCR the text, because they stick them in a virtual buffer, not caring about formatting.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 08 December 2021 17:30
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

 

On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 12:13 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

For PDF files, provided that they are generated with accessibility in mind,

-
Joseph,

I haven't seen any PDF originally created as PDF that's not accessible, fully accessible, with the possible exception of the lack of Alt Text for images.

That being said, I always presume these OCR functions are going to need to exist for a very long time simply because there exist so many image scanned PDF files that were created long before OCR became a standard part of scanning (or even existed).

I'll tell you what I told several of my former clients who were grad students, and who routinely were handed ancient image scanned PDFs that have been in use for years to decades:  OCR process them, save the text layer with the file itself, then try like the dickens to get whoever it is that maintains the archive from which the original was pulled to ditch that original and replace it with the OCRed version.

It's really not anyone's fault that inaccessible PDFs exist that were scanned in "another era."  But those documents can easily be made accessible via OCR done so that the result can be saved as part of the source file.  Those who are the digital archivists should be willing to replace inaccessible versions with accessible ones with just the slightest bit of vetting of the result.  And if they don't want to accept an OCRed version from someone else, a system needs to be in place to report image scanned PDFs for permanent OCR processing by staff, and that it be done promptly.  This isn't time intensive when you're working on demand, rather than a search and destroy mission for every PDF that might be image scanned.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

 


accessibility versus usability

mike mcglashon
 

Hi guys:

 

First, I changed the subject line because this writing has nothing to do with the “new addon” that has been hot on the press this day.

 

Well, I guess I’ll weigh in and you can tell me where I fall on the “accessibility spectrum”

I read a lot of law school textbooks which are divided “intensively sectioned” along with chapters, subchapters, and cases and notes within each of these;

 

I have received both very “accessible and usable” books where all the headings are marked and I can see that sections are within one another and so on; and

I have received “bad books” where there are no headings, no subsection labels, nor case names in headings, so a “search” will only work if I know specifically what I am looking for.

However, if I want to get the lay of the land of a textbook of this nature, and it isn’t marked up “usably” then I could be screwed;

Please let me know your feedback on this;

It seems in the latter case, I have to take sometimes hours to actually put all the headers in the book in order to make a book of this nature “interactive”.

Thank you very much for allowing me to speak on this topic.

 

 

Please advise as you like.

 

Mike M.

 

Mike mcglashon

Email: Michael.mcglashon@...

Ph: 618 783 9331

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, December 8, 2021 5:17 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

 

I wasn’t talking about whether there are features such as headings or if its just text.  I have no objection to documents that read as just text.  I was considering documents that have columns on the pages and where the columns aren’t properly placed.  I was saying, perhaps not clearly, that I don’t know how many PDF documents have columns that cause problems.  The PDF documents ai’ve read are generally accessible as you are describing, but I haven’t worked with enough to generalize.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2021 3:52 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

 

On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 03:46 PM, Gene wrote:

But without experience of a large number of PDF documents, I wouldn’t assume that.

 

-
Gene, I can say, with complete honesty, that I cannot count the number of PDF documents I've dealt with, and in the context of a screen reader.  The general hierarchy of accessibility has been:

1. Image Scanned - Inaccessible unless OCRed, and if OCRed, much depends on when as far as how well that works.

2. OCR processed by something designed to do so -  If it's a fairly modern OCR engine, things like columnar text are generally handled with very good flow.  If it was an early OCR engine, not so much.  Document will not have, to quote Mr. Moxley, "proper heading structure, table structures (with appropriately marked headers), accessible links, alt text etc."  OCR engines are generally not that sophisticated, though most can detect tables these days and set them up as such.

3. Created as PDF in a PDF Editor or MS-Word:  100% basic accessibility, but not necessarily "prettified" with all of the above noted features.  I've created quite a few tutorials in MS-Word that I've then saved as PDF that are one to maybe three pages long, and step by step, and I certainly never go to that level of elaboration because of what the content is and how it's to be accessed.  People creating things like church bulletins, flyers, and lots of other simple documents that are often of a "read once and then done" nature are unlikey to ever do so, either.

3. Created as PDF in a PDF Editor and of significant length, and intended for publication and/or a long archival life:  100% maximally accessible with all the features Mr. Moxley noted.

The fact of the matter is that I don't disagree with him, one bit, about what needs to be done to create a maximally accessible PDF if one is creating it from scratch and it is of any significant length.  What I do disagree with is that this is necessary for the vast majority of very short PDFs out there that may or may not have been created as such.

When it comes to PDFs, and particularly PDFs of unknown origin, it's completely unrealistic to call them inaccessible if they don't have the prettification.  I have scanned, and with OCR scanning at the time of scan, things like owner's manuals and service manuals that are hundreds of pages long.  They will not ever have all of the prettification because it's just not possible, but their text content is complete, and searchable.  That's accessible, and in most instances way more than just minimally accessible.

It's way faster for me to find what I'm looking for in these scanned PDFs because they are searchable than it is to find it using the source material, as often certain bits of information are put where you really wouldn't expect to find it and there's noting in the table of contents nor index or indices that would indicate that.  But if you know the term you're looking for, you can blaze through hundreds of pages very quickly using search functionality.  That's accessible whether you're doing this the sighted way or using a screen reader to do the same thing.  It may not be as nice as it would be had the source material been created as PDF, but there will never come a time where every PDF started out life that way nor where whatever was used to OCR it could possibly produce something with all the features in characteristic of PDF born as PDF.
 
There's basic accessibility and publisher-layout-quality accessibility.  They're not the same thing.  We should, of course, constantly encourage the use of publisher-layout-quality with regard to accessibility where such is warranted.  My 2-page flyer for next week's picnic, as a fictional example, would not be one of those times.  If it's entirely readable, in the expected order, that's good enough.

The perfect should never be the enemy of the good.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

 


Re: To install 21.3

Chris
 

Just update over the older version, and most add-ons have been updated to comply with 21.3 in any case

 

 

 

From: Howard Traxler
Sent: 08 December 2021 22:19
To: NVDA
Subject: [nvda] To install 21.3

 

Hello all,

I'm still using 21.1 because an addon I use does not work under version

2.  I've now found a replacement for the addon and I'd like to install

21.3.  Must I remove the old version or just install over it?  I'd like

to use the OCR addon but someone said it takes 21.3. Maybe it's time to

move forward.

 

Howard

 

 

 

 

 


Re: new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

Gene
 

I wasn’t talking about whether there are features such as headings or if its just text.  I have no objection to documents that read as just text.  I was considering documents that have columns on the pages and where the columns aren’t properly placed.  I was saying, perhaps not clearly, that I don’t know how many PDF documents have columns that cause problems.  The PDF documents ai’ve read are generally accessible as you are describing, but I haven’t worked with enough to generalize.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2021 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.
 
On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 03:46 PM, Gene wrote:
But without experience of a large number of PDF documents, I wouldn’t assume that.
 
-
Gene, I can say, with complete honesty, that I cannot count the number of PDF documents I've dealt with, and in the context of a screen reader.  The general hierarchy of accessibility has been:

1. Image Scanned - Inaccessible unless OCRed, and if OCRed, much depends on when as far as how well that works.

2. OCR processed by something designed to do so -  If it's a fairly modern OCR engine, things like columnar text are generally handled with very good flow.  If it was an early OCR engine, not so much.  Document will not have, to quote Mr. Moxley, "proper heading structure, table structures (with appropriately marked headers), accessible links, alt text etc."  OCR engines are generally not that sophisticated, though most can detect tables these days and set them up as such.

3. Created as PDF in a PDF Editor or MS-Word:  100% basic accessibility, but not necessarily "prettified" with all of the above noted features.  I've created quite a few tutorials in MS-Word that I've then saved as PDF that are one to maybe three pages long, and step by step, and I certainly never go to that level of elaboration because of what the content is and how it's to be accessed.  People creating things like church bulletins, flyers, and lots of other simple documents that are often of a "read once and then done" nature are unlikey to ever do so, either.

3. Created as PDF in a PDF Editor and of significant length, and intended for publication and/or a long archival life:  100% maximally accessible with all the features Mr. Moxley noted.

The fact of the matter is that I don't disagree with him, one bit, about what needs to be done to create a maximally accessible PDF if one is creating it from scratch and it is of any significant length.  What I do disagree with is that this is necessary for the vast majority of very short PDFs out there that may or may not have been created as such.

When it comes to PDFs, and particularly PDFs of unknown origin, it's completely unrealistic to call them inaccessible if they don't have the prettification.  I have scanned, and with OCR scanning at the time of scan, things like owner's manuals and service manuals that are hundreds of pages long.  They will not ever have all of the prettification because it's just not possible, but their text content is complete, and searchable.  That's accessible, and in most instances way more than just minimally accessible.

It's way faster for me to find what I'm looking for in these scanned PDFs because they are searchable than it is to find it using the source material, as often certain bits of information are put where you really wouldn't expect to find it and there's noting in the table of contents nor index or indices that would indicate that.  But if you know the term you're looking for, you can blaze through hundreds of pages very quickly using search functionality.  That's accessible whether you're doing this the sighted way or using a screen reader to do the same thing.  It may not be as nice as it would be had the source material been created as PDF, but there will never come a time where every PDF started out life that way nor where whatever was used to OCR it could possibly produce something with all the features in characteristic of PDF born as PDF.
 
There's basic accessibility and publisher-layout-quality accessibility.  They're not the same thing.  We should, of course, constantly encourage the use of publisher-layout-quality with regard to accessibility where such is warranted.  My 2-page flyer for next week's picnic, as a fictional example, would not be one of those times.  If it's entirely readable, in the expected order, that's good enough.

The perfect should never be the enemy of the good.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

 


Re: new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

 

On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 03:46 PM, Gene wrote:
But without experience of a large number of PDF documents, I wouldn’t assume that.
 
-
Gene, I can say, with complete honesty, that I cannot count the number of PDF documents I've dealt with, and in the context of a screen reader.  The general hierarchy of accessibility has been:

1. Image Scanned - Inaccessible unless OCRed, and if OCRed, much depends on when as far as how well that works.

2. OCR processed by something designed to do so -  If it's a fairly modern OCR engine, things like columnar text are generally handled with very good flow.  If it was an early OCR engine, not so much.  Document will not have, to quote Mr. Moxley, "proper heading structure, table structures (with appropriately marked headers), accessible links, alt text etc."  OCR engines are generally not that sophisticated, though most can detect tables these days and set them up as such.

3. Created as PDF in a PDF Editor or MS-Word:  100% basic accessibility, but not necessarily "prettified" with all of the above noted features.  I've created quite a few tutorials in MS-Word that I've then saved as PDF that are one to maybe three pages long, and step by step, and I certainly never go to that level of elaboration because of what the content is and how it's to be accessed.  People creating things like church bulletins, flyers, and lots of other simple documents that are often of a "read once and then done" nature are unlikey to ever do so, either.

3. Created as PDF in a PDF Editor and of significant length, and intended for publication and/or a long archival life:  100% maximally accessible with all the features Mr. Moxley noted.

The fact of the matter is that I don't disagree with him, one bit, about what needs to be done to create a maximally accessible PDF if one is creating it from scratch and it is of any significant length.  What I do disagree with is that this is necessary for the vast majority of very short PDFs out there that may or may not have been created as such.

When it comes to PDFs, and particularly PDFs of unknown origin, it's completely unrealistic to call them inaccessible if they don't have the prettification.  I have scanned, and with OCR scanning at the time of scan, things like owner's manuals and service manuals that are hundreds of pages long.  They will not ever have all of the prettification because it's just not possible, but their text content is complete, and searchable.  That's accessible, and in most instances way more than just minimally accessible.

It's way faster for me to find what I'm looking for in these scanned PDFs because they are searchable than it is to find it using the source material, as often certain bits of information are put where you really wouldn't expect to find it and there's noting in the table of contents nor index or indices that would indicate that.  But if you know the term you're looking for, you can blaze through hundreds of pages very quickly using search functionality.  That's accessible whether you're doing this the sighted way or using a screen reader to do the same thing.  It may not be as nice as it would be had the source material been created as PDF, but there will never come a time where every PDF started out life that way nor where whatever was used to OCR it could possibly produce something with all the features in characteristic of PDF born as PDF.
 
There's basic accessibility and publisher-layout-quality accessibility.  They're not the same thing.  We should, of course, constantly encourage the use of publisher-layout-quality with regard to accessibility where such is warranted.  My 2-page flyer for next week's picnic, as a fictional example, would not be one of those times.  If it's entirely readable, in the expected order, that's good enough.

The perfect should never be the enemy of the good.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

 


Re: Sometimes NVDA only reads first line of an email in Outlook 2019 : depends on state of Outlook?

Milton Charlton
 

With a little more sleuthing I found that when Outlook is first started, NVDA will read an entire email when that email is selected by hitting Enter. When I try to read the same email again, only the first line is read out.  Now, if I exit Outlook and restart Outlook, that same email will be read out entirely but only the first time.  This behaviour is identical with HTML and with Plain Text emails.  It does not matter if the email is marked as Unread or not. Read All will read the entire email but only  after the first line is read out  so I get the first line twice.
The behaviour is not affected by disabling Outlook Extended addon.

NVDA  2021.3
Windows 10 Pro Version 10.0.19044 Build 19044
 


Re: Associations with edit boxes and labels

 

On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 04:10 PM, Greg Williams wrote:
I am guessing that this was a mistake in the coding given the effort to make the other form fields accessible. Unfortunately, both methods for associating a label with a form field failed in these instances.
-
We're in complete agreement.  Part of my first comment in this topic was, "I'm not good enough at HTML code to know where "the start of the problem" is, but I suspect something in how the page is coded has, effectively, rendered some of the edit box labels invisible to the screen reader and, as a result, it's not reading them."

I find that in more cases than not it's sloppy HTML that lies at the root of issues like this.  And, sometimes, even "sloppy" is way too strong.  It's very easy to skip your own standard practices with regard to accessibility when something is rushed or if you're otherwise distracted.  It's an "oops."
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

 


will station playlist's latest version work now

ken lawrence
 

Hi ken here one of my fello DJs with TAFN radio recently tried to update to station playlist version 6.0 and it didn’t work with NVDA she had to roll all the way back to 2019 and back up to 5.5 station playlist I just got the latest update for NVDA 2021.3 can my friend move up to SPL 6.0 now? A recent add on update did have a new SPL extention. 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 


Re: new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

Cearbhall O'Meadhra
 

Steve,

In my setup, using Windows 10 and a canon flatbed scanner, I just press the scan button on my flatbed; this automatically passes to the PC as an image file held as a.pdf which is immediately thrown into focus, no matter what other application is open. I can then turn to the PC, press NVDA+Shift+r and convert the image into a txt virtual file that can be quickly highlighted and saved to clipboard from which it can be pasted into a simple text file.

The only thing a batch tool could do for me is to activate the OCR command. So, I'm happy!


All the best,

Cearbhall

m +353 (0)833323487 Ph: _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@...

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Wednesday, December 8, 2021 5:01 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

Hi,

Great stuff well done.

All you need now is an option to scan from a camera or flatbed scanner connected to the computer. Could be NVDA Shift A for Acquire image from camera or scanner? Then you have a complete scanning package for NVDA.

All the best

Steve

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-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Simone Dal Maso
Sent: 08 December 2021 09:10
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

Hello,

I am part of a developer team of a new addon.


I'd like to inform you that yesterday we published the first version of Nao, NVDA Advanced OCR.

I paste the little readme file and at last I put the link for download.

Feedback and suggestions are welcome!


Nao is an addon that improves the standard OCR capabilities that NVDA provides on modern Windows versions. While NVDA standard command uses Windows OCR to recognize the screen, NAO is able to make the OCR on files saved on your hard drive or USB devices. Use NVDA-Shift-R to recognize any sorts of images and pdf! Simply put the focus / cursor on the file you desire, don't open it, but hit NVDA-Shift-r. The document will be recognized and a simple text editfield will appear, allowing you to read the entire content. Nao is able to handle also multipage pdf, so if you have a not accessible document, don't worry, Windows OCR will be able to make yhr entire work.


System Requirements
The addon works on Windows 10 and Windows 11 systems, since they have OCR capabilities builtin. Nao is compatible from NVDA version 2021.2, so don't use older versions of the screen reader. Note that Nao works with Windows Explorer, on desktop, or with Total Commander filemanager; don't use other software like 7zip or Winrar , since they are not supported.

Features and commands
• NVDA + Shift + R: recognize any sorts of images and pdf from file system; ◦ PgUp / PgDown: move the cursor between real pages of a multipages document.
◦ NVDA + Shift + P: report page number related to the cursor position, in a multipage document.
• NVDA + Shift + Ctrl + R: take a full screen shot and recognize it.


Github repository:

https://github.com/sharkboyto/nao

Latest version:

https://github.com/sharkboyto/nao/releases/download/v_2021.1.07/nao-2021.1.07.nvda-addon














--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


Re: Associations with edit boxes and labels

Greg Williams
 


On 12/6/2021 11:48 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
What's really interesting is that three edit boxes, full name, email address, and twitter name are the boxes sans any labels announced, but when you land in the edit box for Any extra things you think we should know and are in auto switch mode and it switches to focus mode it is announced.  Truly weird in terms of accessibility in a form.

-

As Jonathan mentioned, most of the input fields have aria-label attributes which are announced when tabbing. For some reason, these three do not have an aria-label. They also do not have an ID attribute which matches the for attribute in the label tag; this means that even though there is a label, it is not announced when tabbing. I am guessing that this was a mistake in the coding given the effort to make the other form fields accessible. Unfortunately, both methods for associating a label with a form field failed in these instances.

Greg



Re: new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

Gene
 

For people having this problem, using the desktop layout, Numpad plus, the long key immediately above numpad enter, will read all the text in an object.  It will probably read the entire document if you wish.  My guess is that it is one single object. 
 
I don’t know the laptop layout command.
 
The object navigator moves as text is spoken and you can move using object navigation movement keys and begin reading where you move to.  Also, if you stop reading because of some interruption or to do something, and you don’t move the position of the navigator, you can resume reading where you left off.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2021 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.
 
Good day Simone,

After testing the NAO addon, the following can be reported:
1. Once a document is recognised and you get the results virtual buffer, pressing your arrows exits the results buffer.
2. If you use the review cursor, the entire document can be read.

Great work and I hope this will only make it better.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Simone Dal Maso
Sent: Wednesday, 08 December 2021 11:10
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

Hello,

I am part of a developer team of a new addon.


I'd like to inform you that yesterday  we published the first version of Nao, NVDA Advanced OCR.

I paste the little readme file and at last I put the link for download.

Feedback and suggestions are welcome!


Nao is an addon that improves the standard OCR capabilities that NVDA provides on modern Windows versions. While NVDA standard command uses Windows OCR to recognize the screen, NAO is able to make the OCR on files saved on your hard drive or USB devices. Use NVDA-Shift-R to recognize any sorts of images and pdf! Simply put the focus / cursor on the file you desire, don't open it, but hit NVDA-Shift-r. The document will be recognized and a simple text editfield will appear, allowing you to read the entire content. Nao is able to handle also multipage pdf, so if you have a not accessible document, don't worry, Windows OCR will be able to make yhr entire work.


System Requirements
The addon works on Windows 10 and Windows 11 systems, since they have OCR capabilities builtin. Nao is compatible from NVDA version 2021.2, so don't use older versions of the screen reader. Note that Nao works with Windows Explorer, on desktop, or with Total Commander filemanager; don't use other software like 7zip or Winrar , since they are not supported.

Features and commands
• NVDA + Shift + R: recognize any sorts of images and pdf from file system; ◦ PgUp / PgDown: move the cursor between real pages of a multipages document.
◦ NVDA + Shift + P: report page number related to the cursor position, in a multipage document.
• NVDA + Shift + Ctrl + R: take a full screen shot and recognize it.


Github repository:

https://github.com/sharkboyto/nao

Latest version:

https://github.com/sharkboyto/nao/releases/download/v_2021.1.07/nao-2021.1.07.nvda-addon










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