Date   

Re: NVDA Features feedback

 

On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 01:59 PM, Mani Iyer wrote:
And as you know, line and stanza breaks are very important to poetry.  I know I will get used to the silence but technically, it baffles me as to why the carriage return or newline was singled out. 
And the funny thing is NVDA does speak it when you use the left arrow key to read the text backward across lines. 
-
Well, if I had my druthers, space would be omitted, too, except in character by character contexts, and blank lines would not be read out as "blank" but with a very quick tone to let you know you've hit one.

I know what you're saying about formatting line and stanza breaks, but I cannot fathom, really, not knowing whether you've hit Enter or not, and how many times, when writing.  Also, when I'm writing anything for public consumption, I will be going back and checking and rechecking formatting after the initial writing pass and in most subsequent editing/revising passes in the areas I've tweaked.

I guess some of it depends on whether you're a touch typist, and how good you are.  I am a far from perfect touch typist, but I am good enough to generally recognize when I've fat fingered a letter, but not always.  I can't even recall the last time I have ever accidentally pressed, or failed to press, either the spacebar or the enter key.  I can, however, get tripped up with tab because it's easy to activate CAPS LOCK instead of Tab if you're rushing and your pinky reach is "iffy."

I certainly wouldn't object to having a setting where you could choose to have enter announced, but if such were to be created I'd hope the default state would be off.  I'm very much of the same mind as Gene in that I think "full verbosity" on screen readers is gross overkill for almost any routine user of same, but what out of that "gross overkill" that each user wants to shut up and never hear again can be quite different.  I can't make those choices, Gene can't make those choices, even AI should not be making those choices.  Each user needs to make them because only they can know what they want and need from the smorgasbord that's available.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

       ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

 


Re: NVDA Features feedback

 

On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 01:58 PM, Gene wrote:
I do object to the amount of verbosity when in web ;pages.  Why is bloc quote on?  I question how many people want to know information about lists.  There may be other notifications most people don’t care about and I think it would be useful to have a survey about that. 
-
The thing is, Gene, if history is any indicator, the maximum verbosity out of the box is not about "most people," but, as I said, beginners.

Block quote, particularly in the contexts where it's in use, can make it much easier to navigate between the various levels of blocks of quoted text, or past them.

And I don't think there is ever going to come a day when "most users" are going to be the consideration for the "out of the box" state of verbosity on any screen reader.  It's maximized because those new to screen readers need to know way more precisely what's happening at the outset than either you or I do, and we should also know how to turn off verbosity we don't want.

Discussion regarding announcements that don't allow choice of any sort is an entirey different subject.  And there will be times where the choice made will not make you happy, and others where it will, and that's for the generic you.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

       ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

 


Re: NVDA Features feedback

 

On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 02:06 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I was taught that return and a new line are not the same thing.
-
I forgot to mention that newline, as it's commonly used, refers to a CR (carriage return) LF (line feed) combo.  What we get when we hit Enter or Return on a keyboard.

While the straight carriage return character still exists, I haven't heard anyone refer to it as "return," while I have often heard both return and enter used interchangeably because, what those do from a keyboard is precisely the same.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

       ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

 


Re: NVDA Features feedback

 

On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 02:06 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I was taught that return and a new line are not the same thing.
-
That both is, and is not, true based upon the context.  I am probably one of "the oldsters" here, just a hair shy of 60, and started in computing when punchcards were still in use as were tractor feed printers.

And most of the differences came into play when talking about a tractor feed printer.  

There was the carriage return, usually referred to with CR, which did just that: Move the print head (carriage) back to the left margin of the current line without feeding the paper.

There was the line feed, usually referred to with LF, which did just that: Feed the paper without moving the print head position.

There was the CR-LF combo, what we now think of and get, in practice, if we hit the Enter or Return key (and they are labeled as both, it depends on the keyboard).  There is, of course, no paper involved, but conceptually you are returning the carriage to its leftmost position and feeding the virtual paper up by a single line (or however your line spacing is set).  In writing systems that read right to left, substitute right for left.

There is really no point in trying to separate out Return or Enter in any modern computing context.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

       ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

 


Re: new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

 

On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 03:55 PM, Chris Mullins wrote:
The developers of the NAO addon are currently testing a version that automatically puts the recognised text into a text file
-
God bless 'em!  I have always preferred the, "Dump result into Notepad," method over a virtual buffer.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

       ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

 


Re: If you ever want a message deleted from the archive after you've posted, and replies to same blocked #adminnotice

 

On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 03:40 PM, Louise Pfau wrote:
How do you delete the contents of the thread if people haven't quoted the content from previous messages?
-
Louise,

I'm not quite certain what you're asking here.  If you are a group owner or a moderator with sufficient privilege, you can use the "More" button below individual messages to do all sorts of things including, but not limited to, deleting, editing, re-titling (Topic Properties), making sticky for the forum web interface, viewing the HTML source, splitting a topic into two using the message with focus as the split point, and more.

What I described earlier was using the Edit Message option, and manually selecting the bottom quoted material that was Quentin's that he did not wish to have in the archive, and deleting it.  I have had to do this numerous times for that particular topic, as most people responding just leave all bottom quoted material in place without trimming it.

But I created this topic so that people could have any accidentally posted messages removed in such a way that they can't just keep reappearing if people reply to a topic.  I can go in to any given message (and so can its original composer) and delete the actual message body itself.  Then I can lock the topic.  That leaves a blank place holder to prevent any replies to that original topic while also removing the original message.  Usually, after a sufficient time has passed, I'll even eventually delete the locked place holder once the likelihood of any replies have long passed.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

       ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

 


Re: Sluggishness with LibraOffice Calc

Chris Mullins
 

Hi

NVDA and LO.Calc is not a match made in heaven but I can generally cope with it.  The fact that the full file path and file name is spoken when moving between cells is an annoyance that can be silenced with the control key.  I don’t seem to get the sluggishness you are encountering, I tend to have “Speak typed characters” on so the numbers are read out as I type, then I press the right arrow to exit the cell, then if necessary, press left arrow to move focus back to the cell just input to check the value.  Sounds a bit clunky I know but the left/right arrows do react quickly for me.

 

Cheers

Chris   

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Richard B. McDonald
Sent: 15 December 2021 16:49
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Sluggishness with LibraOffice Calc

 

Hi!

 

I am using Windows 10, LibraOffice 7.2.4 and NVDA 2021.3.  with Calc, there is a great amount of sluggishness, as outlined below:

 

- With a spreadsheet open, each time I enter a number into a cell, there is like a 15 second delay before NVDA responds with the number entered.

 

- When using the enter or arrow keys after entering a number into a cell to move to a new cell, it takes like 15 seconds before NVDA responds.

 

- Generally, after performing any of the two above actions, the full file path and file name is spoken.

 

I do not have any special settings in either NVDA or LO.  When using JAWS and Excel, I experience none of this sluggishness.  So, what is causing this?

 

Thanks,

Richard

 


Re: new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

Chris Mullins
 

Hi

You can copy the recognised text to the clipboard, however if you have the Clipspeak addon enabled, this will cause the select and copy operation to fail.  If you disable the Clipspeak add on, then run the NAO addon, you could use Control+a to select the whole file, then Control+c to copy it to clipboard, then paste it into a text file

 

The same issue occurs with some versions of the NVDA Global Commands Extension addon but if you update it to version 10.3, the bug is fixed in that version.  

 

The developers of the NAO addon are currently testing a version that automatically puts the recognised text into a text file instead of a virtual buffer, so hopefully, the addon incompatibilities will disappear.

 

Cheers

Chris

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Dave Grossoehme
Sent: 15 December 2021 19:46
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

 

What happens if you go to the applications key and arrow down.  Do you have a copy option in there?  If so, can you copy the information from your OCR screen?  This is just a guess to try.

Dave G

 

On 12/8/2021 3:24 PM, Jay Pellis wrote:

Hello all

This add on is amazing, did a scan of a pdf I've been having trouble with and it got all of the information I was missing using other programs like kurzweil.  I assume there is no way to copy and paste the information from the results area?  I tried using control shift end from the beginning and it said characters were selected but copy/paste unfortunately did nothing.  Can this perhaps be included in a future update?

Thank you so much to the developers for your time and effort.

Regards

Jay

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of benmoxey@...
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2021 2:17 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

 

Hi everyone

 

First, a big thank you to all of the developers who freely give their time to create these excellent additions to NVDA. I’m looking forward to trying this one. 😊

 

Second, Joseph’s comment about educating content creators about the importance of accessibility is extremely relevant. It is simply not true that documents that are originally created as PDFs are generally accessible.

 

When a PDF is created accessibly, they have a proper heading structure, table structures (with appropriately marked headers), accessible links, alt text etc. In fact, if tagged correctly, you get the best reading experience when loaded in Adobe Reader DC; they navigate like a well-designed website. The reason that loading PDFs in a web browser has become so popular in the blind community is because they are so often created with little accessibility in mind. The browser presents the documents contents the way it thinks it’s supposed to be displayed. This is why you often notice that there’s a heading structure that doesn’t really make sense, no images  and no tables.

 

I think this is an important point to make because there is a bit of a perception out there that being able to access some information is good enough. We in the blind community deserve better and it starts with education. These add-ons are a very valuable and appreciated work-around in the meantime.

 

All the best.

 

Ben

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, 9 December 2021 4:30 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

 

On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 12:13 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

For PDF files, provided that they are generated with accessibility in mind,

-
Joseph,

I haven't seen any PDF originally created as PDF that's not accessible, fully accessible, with the possible exception of the lack of Alt Text for images.

That being said, I always presume these OCR functions are going to need to exist for a very long time simply because there exist so many image scanned PDF files that were created long before OCR became a standard part of scanning (or even existed).

I'll tell you what I told several of my former clients who were grad students, and who routinely were handed ancient image scanned PDFs that have been in use for years to decades:  OCR process them, save the text layer with the file itself, then try like the dickens to get whoever it is that maintains the archive from which the original was pulled to ditch that original and replace it with the OCRed version.

It's really not anyone's fault that inaccessible PDFs exist that were scanned in "another era."  But those documents can easily be made accessible via OCR done so that the result can be saved as part of the source file.  Those who are the digital archivists should be willing to replace inaccessible versions with accessible ones with just the slightest bit of vetting of the result.  And if they don't want to accept an OCRed version from someone else, a system needs to be in place to report image scanned PDFs for permanent OCR processing by staff, and that it be done promptly.  This isn't time intensive when you're working on demand, rather than a search and destroy mission for every PDF that might be image scanned.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

 

 


Re: If you ever want a message deleted from the archive after you've posted, and replies to same blocked #adminnotice

Sarah k Alawami
 

When you reply, you can actually select the text below yours and hit delete. It's been a while since I've done this, but that's waht I remember from the last tiem.


Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. .

For more info go to our website. . to subscribe to the feed click here

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On 15 Dec 2021, at 12:40, Louise Pfau wrote:

Hi.  How do you delete the contents of the thread if people haven't quoted the content from previous messages?  I've never had to do this through the

groups.io interface, so I don't know how.


Re: If you ever want a message deleted from the archive after you've posted, and replies to same blocked #adminnotice

Louise Pfau
 

Hi.  How do you delete the contents of the thread if people haven't quoted the content from previous messages?  I've never had to do this through the groups.io interface, so I don't know how.

Thanks,

Louise


Re: new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

Dave Grossoehme
 

What happens if you go to the applications key and arrow down.  Do you have a copy option in there?  If so, can you copy the information from your OCR screen?  This is just a guess to try.

Dave G


On 12/8/2021 3:24 PM, Jay Pellis wrote:

Hello all

This add on is amazing, did a scan of a pdf I've been having trouble with and it got all of the information I was missing using other programs like kurzweil.  I assume there is no way to copy and paste the information from the results area?  I tried using control shift end from the beginning and it said characters were selected but copy/paste unfortunately did nothing.  Can this perhaps be included in a future update?

Thank you so much to the developers for your time and effort.

Regards

Jay

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of benmoxey@...
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2021 2:17 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

 

Hi everyone

 

First, a big thank you to all of the developers who freely give their time to create these excellent additions to NVDA. I’m looking forward to trying this one. 😊

 

Second, Joseph’s comment about educating content creators about the importance of accessibility is extremely relevant. It is simply not true that documents that are originally created as PDFs are generally accessible.

 

When a PDF is created accessibly, they have a proper heading structure, table structures (with appropriately marked headers), accessible links, alt text etc. In fact, if tagged correctly, you get the best reading experience when loaded in Adobe Reader DC; they navigate like a well-designed website. The reason that loading PDFs in a web browser has become so popular in the blind community is because they are so often created with little accessibility in mind. The browser presents the documents contents the way it thinks it’s supposed to be displayed. This is why you often notice that there’s a heading structure that doesn’t really make sense, no images  and no tables.

 

I think this is an important point to make because there is a bit of a perception out there that being able to access some information is good enough. We in the blind community deserve better and it starts with education. These add-ons are a very valuable and appreciated work-around in the meantime.

 

All the best.

 

Ben

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, 9 December 2021 4:30 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] new addon: NVDA Advanced OCR.

 

On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 12:13 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

For PDF files, provided that they are generated with accessibility in mind,

-
Joseph,

I haven't seen any PDF originally created as PDF that's not accessible, fully accessible, with the possible exception of the lack of Alt Text for images.

That being said, I always presume these OCR functions are going to need to exist for a very long time simply because there exist so many image scanned PDF files that were created long before OCR became a standard part of scanning (or even existed).

I'll tell you what I told several of my former clients who were grad students, and who routinely were handed ancient image scanned PDFs that have been in use for years to decades:  OCR process them, save the text layer with the file itself, then try like the dickens to get whoever it is that maintains the archive from which the original was pulled to ditch that original and replace it with the OCRed version.

It's really not anyone's fault that inaccessible PDFs exist that were scanned in "another era."  But those documents can easily be made accessible via OCR done so that the result can be saved as part of the source file.  Those who are the digital archivists should be willing to replace inaccessible versions with accessible ones with just the slightest bit of vetting of the result.  And if they don't want to accept an OCRed version from someone else, a system needs to be in place to report image scanned PDFs for permanent OCR processing by staff, and that it be done promptly.  This isn't time intensive when you're working on demand, rather than a search and destroy mission for every PDF that might be image scanned.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

 


Re: NVDA Features feedback

Gene
 

I’m not saying it shouldn’t be available but in every case I’ve come across, such symbols are eye candy.  And the only way I can cause them not to be spoken is to set the verbosity level of them higher than the level of punctuation I usually use.  That is the kind of thing a lot of users will never learn about.  If you are going to add more and more verbosity to web pages, there should be simple commands to adjust the amount of verbosity spoken. 
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2021 1:03 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
 

Actually the left triangle can can indicate depending on the site and the layout of the page  an arrow, that can be useful if the thing can be clicked. I would want that  spoken if the sighted person tells me to click where the left triangle is.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2021 10:58 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback

 

I don’t object to the amount of verbosity in screen-readers for general use.  And even you said you expect there to be different levels of verbosity settings in NVDA, which there aren’t.  I do object to the amount of verbosity when in web ;pages.  Why is bloc quote on?  I question how many people want to know information about lists.  There may be other notifications most people don’t care about and I think it would be useful to have a survey about that. 

 

And there is still no way to turn figure out of figure notifications off, nor to turn off, on the fly, announcements of symbols on web [pages.  It doesn’t benefit me at all to hear left pointing triangle when I’m reading a web

page and on some pages, I hear such information repeatedly.  Recently, I discovered another new or rather new addition.  I don’t remember the wording, but it was something like emphasis area.  It was thoroughly distracting, and because the portion of the page had such material close together, I kept hearing in and out of emphasis area.  This is not at all helpful.  Perhaps it is something different like marked area.  Others may remember. 

 

There seems to be an attitude that the more verbosity on web pages, the better.  I think its time that this be discussed.  And its not because I mind adjusting verbosity myself.  I just think the approach is wrong and that many people won’t learn enough to know how to control it.

 

If there is going to be this amount of verbosity, and it keeps being added to, I think users should be surveyed.  On what basis are such decisions made now?

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

From: Brian Vogel

Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2021 12:03 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback

 

On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 12:06 PM, Gene wrote:

That’s one reason I object to so much verbosity being on by default.

-
Gene, I'm sorry, but the only response to this complaint is:  Get over it, and get on with tweaking your configurations.

I do not know of a single screen reader that is not set to "maximum verbosity" in its out of the box state with the clear intention of making things maximally easy for neophyte users.

Long term users of software, not just screen readers, need to know how to tweak settings to their personal preferences.  You do this, but far, far, far too many will not.  If one-tenth the time spent complaining about things "not liked" that are resettable were spent actually asking about whether such were resettable, and then resetting them once the information is presented, most of the complaining would vanish.

If you are using any complex piece of software, ignorance is no excuse for endless complaining.  Ignorance can be easily cured by asking, but it's never cured by complaining and making assertions (and they're far too frequent) that thing X or thing Y can't be done because you've not lifted a finger to research or inquire about whether they can be done.

Windows, Android, JAWS, NVDA, Narrator, MS-Word, MS-Excel, and the list goes on and on will never be "easy to use" if you want to exploit them to their maximum extent and get your cyber world working in a way that's most pleasing to you.  Large amounts of customization are required.  This is one of the reasons, among many, that I and all professional computer techs insist that all users should be doing system image backups on a regular, cyclic basis.  There is a massive amount of time and effort put into getting one's computing environment just as one likes it, and it generally occurs over years and in such a way that you have no memory of a great deal of how certain specific things came to be.  If you have a system drive failure or any one of a number of other disasters, all of that is lost in one fell swoop with very little chance that it can ever be recovered.  If you have a backup, you can get it all back, quickly, and with a minimum of muss and fuss (and that's even if you need to engage a tech to do the actual work).
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

       ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

 


Re: NVDA Features feedback

Sarah k Alawami
 

I was taught that return and a new line are not the same thing. Theirs both a soft return and a hard return which are generated by two different keystrokes. One is shift enter or control enter and one of them is just enter. I can hear the difference on my operating systems I use. They also do not do the same thing, not technically. The CR is  generated by enter and is a true carage return. Google for both.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2021 11:01 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback

 

Yes, but people who receive anything like reasonably good training should know that enter in a word processor or text editor places a hard return in the text.  Since you are pressing enter I think it should be identified as enter.  You are placing a return in the text but you are using the enter key, not the return key, there is no such key, to do this. 

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2021 12:08 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback

 

Gene,

I will try to make this short. In my humble opinion, unlike the control characters, the carriage return(\r) is generated  by the enter/return  key. It is a whitespace character like the tab or blank which are correctly spoken by NVDA.

 

Mani

 

On Dec 15, 2021, at 11:22 AM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

 

If its going to say anything, I would think enter is what should be said.  Return is only the effect of pressing enter in certain contexts.  And what about people who want to hear it not just in word or text writing applications?  I think the solution is to have a definable speak commands key function.  Now, the user can’t define what is or isn’t spoken.;  Every key, the arrow keys, enter, tab, nvda key when used with another modifier such as control, backspace every time you press it before the letter being removed is announced, control when used with other keys, and I would imagine others ai haven’t thought of, are spoken.  Its maddening unless you require to hear all this for some reason.  It makes the feature useless for most people.

 

If adding this definability is easy and requires little work, the following doesn’t matter.  If it would be enough work to amount to something, it might be a good idea to take a poll of users to see if the demand justifies the work when compared with the need for other work to be done. 

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2021 9:44 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback

 

Hello,

Speak the carriage return character at all times when entering or reading text.   You can say ‘carriage return’ or ’new line’.


Mani
 





 


Re: NVDA Features feedback

Sarah k Alawami
 

Actually the left triangle can can indicate depending on the site and the layout of the page  an arrow, that can be useful if the thing can be clicked. I would want that  spoken if the sighted person tells me to click where the left triangle is.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2021 10:58 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback

 

I don’t object to the amount of verbosity in screen-readers for general use.  And even you said you expect there to be different levels of verbosity settings in NVDA, which there aren’t.  I do object to the amount of verbosity when in web ;pages.  Why is bloc quote on?  I question how many people want to know information about lists.  There may be other notifications most people don’t care about and I think it would be useful to have a survey about that. 

 

And there is still no way to turn figure out of figure notifications off, nor to turn off, on the fly, announcements of symbols on web [pages.  It doesn’t benefit me at all to hear left pointing triangle when I’m reading a web

page and on some pages, I hear such information repeatedly.  Recently, I discovered another new or rather new addition.  I don’t remember the wording, but it was something like emphasis area.  It was thoroughly distracting, and because the portion of the page had such material close together, I kept hearing in and out of emphasis area.  This is not at all helpful.  Perhaps it is something different like marked area.  Others may remember. 

 

There seems to be an attitude that the more verbosity on web pages, the better.  I think its time that this be discussed.  And its not because I mind adjusting verbosity myself.  I just think the approach is wrong and that many people won’t learn enough to know how to control it.

 

If there is going to be this amount of verbosity, and it keeps being added to, I think users should be surveyed.  On what basis are such decisions made now?

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2021 12:03 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback

 

On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 12:06 PM, Gene wrote:

That’s one reason I object to so much verbosity being on by default.

-
Gene, I'm sorry, but the only response to this complaint is:  Get over it, and get on with tweaking your configurations.

I do not know of a single screen reader that is not set to "maximum verbosity" in its out of the box state with the clear intention of making things maximally easy for neophyte users.

Long term users of software, not just screen readers, need to know how to tweak settings to their personal preferences.  You do this, but far, far, far too many will not.  If one-tenth the time spent complaining about things "not liked" that are resettable were spent actually asking about whether such were resettable, and then resetting them once the information is presented, most of the complaining would vanish.

If you are using any complex piece of software, ignorance is no excuse for endless complaining.  Ignorance can be easily cured by asking, but it's never cured by complaining and making assertions (and they're far too frequent) that thing X or thing Y can't be done because you've not lifted a finger to research or inquire about whether they can be done.

Windows, Android, JAWS, NVDA, Narrator, MS-Word, MS-Excel, and the list goes on and on will never be "easy to use" if you want to exploit them to their maximum extent and get your cyber world working in a way that's most pleasing to you.  Large amounts of customization are required.  This is one of the reasons, among many, that I and all professional computer techs insist that all users should be doing system image backups on a regular, cyclic basis.  There is a massive amount of time and effort put into getting one's computing environment just as one likes it, and it generally occurs over years and in such a way that you have no memory of a great deal of how certain specific things came to be.  If you have a system drive failure or any one of a number of other disasters, all of that is lost in one fell swoop with very little chance that it can ever be recovered.  If you have a backup, you can get it all back, quickly, and with a minimum of muss and fuss (and that's even if you need to engage a tech to do the actual work).
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

       ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

 


Re: NVDA Features feedback

Gene
 

Yes, but people who receive anything like reasonably good training should know that enter in a word processor or text editor places a hard return in the text.  Since you are pressing enter I think it should be identified as enter.  You are placing a return in the text but you are using the enter key, not the return key, there is no such key, to do this. 
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2021 12:08 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
 
Gene,
I will try to make this short. In my humble opinion, unlike the control characters, the carriage return(\r) is generated  by the enter/return  key. It is a whitespace character like the tab or blank which are correctly spoken by NVDA.
 
Mani
 
On Dec 15, 2021, at 11:22 AM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
 
If its going to say anything, I would think enter is what should be said.  Return is only the effect of pressing enter in certain contexts.  And what about people who want to hear it not just in word or text writing applications?  I think the solution is to have a definable speak commands key function.  Now, the user can’t define what is or isn’t spoken.;  Every key, the arrow keys, enter, tab, nvda key when used with another modifier such as control, backspace every time you press it before the letter being removed is announced, control when used with other keys, and I would imagine others ai haven’t thought of, are spoken.  Its maddening unless you require to hear all this for some reason.  It makes the feature useless for most people.
 
If adding this definability is easy and requires little work, the following doesn’t matter.  If it would be enough work to amount to something, it might be a good idea to take a poll of users to see if the demand justifies the work when compared with the need for other work to be done. 
 
Gene
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2021 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
 
Hello,

Speak the carriage return character at all times when entering or reading text.   You can say ‘carriage return’ or ’new line’.


Mani
 






 


Re: NVDA Features feedback

Mani Iyer
 

Hello Brian,
I write poetry. And as you know, line and stanza breaks are very important to poetry.  I know I will get used to the silence but technically, it baffles me as to why the carriage return or newline was singled out. 
And the funny thing is NVDA does speak it when you use the left arrow key to read the text backward across lines. 

Mani


mani

On Dec 15, 2021, at 1:20 PM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 01:09 PM, Mani Iyer wrote:
It is a whitespace character like the tab or blank which are correctly spoken by NVDA.
-
Tab cannot be distinguished from other whitespace unless announced.  Blank is generally only announced going character by character or line by line if a line is blank.

Newline is very simple to deduce by context, and I doubt that very many would ever want that announced as a routine matter.

Not that I need to understand, but I'd like to:  Why do you have such a desire for Enter/Carriage Return/Newline to be explicitly spoken?  And, as a follow up, how is it that you cannot deduce its presence in almost all cases?

Heaven knows I would not want enter echoed every time I type it just like I don't want space echoed in the vast majority of cases.  But that's me.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

       ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

 


Re: NVDA Features feedback

Gene
 

I don’t object to the amount of verbosity in screen-readers for general use.  And even you said you expect there to be different levels of verbosity settings in NVDA, which there aren’t.  I do object to the amount of verbosity when in web ;pages.  Why is bloc quote on?  I question how many people want to know information about lists.  There may be other notifications most people don’t care about and I think it would be useful to have a survey about that. 
 
And there is still no way to turn figure out of figure notifications off, nor to turn off, on the fly, announcements of symbols on web [pages.  It doesn’t benefit me at all to hear left pointing triangle when I’m reading a web
page and on some pages, I hear such information repeatedly.  Recently, I discovered another new or rather new addition.  I don’t remember the wording, but it was something like emphasis area.  It was thoroughly distracting, and because the portion of the page had such material close together, I kept hearing in and out of emphasis area.  This is not at all helpful.  Perhaps it is something different like marked area.  Others may remember. 
 
There seems to be an attitude that the more verbosity on web pages, the better.  I think its time that this be discussed.  And its not because I mind adjusting verbosity myself.  I just think the approach is wrong and that many people won’t learn enough to know how to control it.
 
If there is going to be this amount of verbosity, and it keeps being added to, I think users should be surveyed.  On what basis are such decisions made now?
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2021 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
 
On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 12:06 PM, Gene wrote:
That’s one reason I object to so much verbosity being on by default.
-
Gene, I'm sorry, but the only response to this complaint is:  Get over it, and get on with tweaking your configurations.

I do not know of a single screen reader that is not set to "maximum verbosity" in its out of the box state with the clear intention of making things maximally easy for neophyte users.

Long term users of software, not just screen readers, need to know how to tweak settings to their personal preferences.  You do this, but far, far, far too many will not.  If one-tenth the time spent complaining about things "not liked" that are resettable were spent actually asking about whether such were resettable, and then resetting them once the information is presented, most of the complaining would vanish.

If you are using any complex piece of software, ignorance is no excuse for endless complaining.  Ignorance can be easily cured by asking, but it's never cured by complaining and making assertions (and they're far too frequent) that thing X or thing Y can't be done because you've not lifted a finger to research or inquire about whether they can be done.

Windows, Android, JAWS, NVDA, Narrator, MS-Word, MS-Excel, and the list goes on and on will never be "easy to use" if you want to exploit them to their maximum extent and get your cyber world working in a way that's most pleasing to you.  Large amounts of customization are required.  This is one of the reasons, among many, that I and all professional computer techs insist that all users should be doing system image backups on a regular, cyclic basis.  There is a massive amount of time and effort put into getting one's computing environment just as one likes it, and it generally occurs over years and in such a way that you have no memory of a great deal of how certain specific things came to be.  If you have a system drive failure or any one of a number of other disasters, all of that is lost in one fell swoop with very little chance that it can ever be recovered.  If you have a backup, you can get it all back, quickly, and with a minimum of muss and fuss (and that's even if you need to engage a tech to do the actual work).
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

       ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

 


Re: NVDA Features feedback

 

On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 01:15 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I think there are other restrictions that, at least in a daily setting might not make a portable a good idea.
-
Not arguing this point, but it's a horrible idea to use out-of-support software of any sort that involves contact with cyberspace or any out-of-support operating system.

Most of the issue, as I'm seeing it discussed here, with how backward compatibility is dropped has to do with folks who are, even if forced by circumstance, using way out-of-support software.  I have no idea why that would not be expected "across the board" and where an old, and compatible, version of a given screen reader would be used as well.  I'm way too late to NVDA to even know whether a Windows XP compatible version existed, but if it did, I would expect that those who insist on using Windows XP would also continue to use whatever the last compatible NVDA version was when in that environment.  There should be no possible expectation that backward compatibility with XP, Vista, and the like will be maintained.  It's utterly impractical, and the proportion of the user base that benefits is infinitesimally small as time goes by.

There really must be arbitrary lines drawn.  There is no such thing as perpetual backward compatibility, and all software houses must focus on the now and the upcoming, not the long distant past, as a matter of both practicality and survival.

Most (though not NVDA) are not charities, either, and if a choice has to be made about allocating resources those are justly allocated with a focus on the effort to keep "going with the flow" and not trying to bring every prior user along if they are not doing the same, for whatever reason.  They've got to try to go with the flow, too.  And it's not like NVDA does not (or at least has, historically) had long periods of overlap in compatibility with older versions of Windows after they've gone out of support.  It's still compatible with Windows 7 at the moment, but it certainly won't be, and shouldn't be, forever.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

       ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

 


Re: NVDA Features feedback

 

On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 01:09 PM, Mani Iyer wrote:
It is a whitespace character like the tab or blank which are correctly spoken by NVDA.
-
Tab cannot be distinguished from other whitespace unless announced.  Blank is generally only announced going character by character or line by line if a line is blank.

Newline is very simple to deduce by context, and I doubt that very many would ever want that announced as a routine matter.

Not that I need to understand, but I'd like to:  Why do you have such a desire for Enter/Carriage Return/Newline to be explicitly spoken?  And, as a follow up, how is it that you cannot deduce its presence in almost all cases?

Heaven knows I would not want enter echoed every time I type it just like I don't want space echoed in the vast majority of cases.  But that's me.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

       ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

 


Re: NVDA Features feedback

Sarah k Alawami
 

You can’t really do anything  that has admin rights in the portable version. I think there are other restrictions that, at least in a daily setting might not make a portable a good idea.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2021 8:02 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback

 

That’s true.  This might not matter for a good while, but as time goes by, it may become necessary or desirable to run the current version and an older version to support certain programs better.  I don’t recall what the portable version can’t do that the installed version can in enough detail to know if that might be a problem. 

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2021 6:26 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback

 

Hi Gene,

One fact though, if someone for some reason decided to use legacy apps, they could always continue to use an old version of NVDA.

On 12/14/2021 11:31 PM, Gene wrote:

I haven’t followed fixes in NVDA for unsupported programs.  But I think these questions need to be considered when deciding what to support:

How many people are using these old programs and why?  NVDA is used all over the world and blind people of all economic circumstances use it.  There may be good reasons some people are using old versions of programs and Windows.  Is fixing problems in how NVDA works with a specific program worth the time in terms of how many people benefit versus the things that are undone as a result?  At some point, even if the needs of people are taken into account, it may become so difficult and time consuming to fix problems or keep NVDA compatible that the effort would be given up even if [enough people would benefit to have justified such fixes in the past.  I suspect that at times, you can’t maintain compatibility with old programs or versions of Windows while making NVDA work well with new versions because of changes in the new programs.  But I don’t think you benefit people in the best way by applying an arbitrary rule.

 

Gene

Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2021 9:58 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback

 

better support for Microsoft office, especially the editor and spellcheck, fixes for performance losses.

Better support for Firefox, fixes for large table Firefox lags and other Firefox lags.

abandonment of legacy applications. I feel NVAccess should develop a support policy for applications that have no official support, and stick to it. There is no reason why anyone should be using Windows 7, office 2003/2007/2010 etc, and time shouldn't be spent on fixing bugs in obsolete technologies.

On 12/14/2021 5:34 AM, Rui Fontes wrote:

Hello!

 

1 - Better support for Libre Office or Open Office;

2 - Possibility of easily label controls not labelled by develloper;

3 - Better control of what is announced by pressing a key. Take as example Narrator.

 

Rui Fontes

 

Às 04:00 de 14/12/2021, Quentin Christensen escreveu:

I've collated the feedback I've gotten so far from Derek, Bhavya and Joseph.  I've included an overview below and a spreadsheet attached with the full responses:

 

Bhavya:
3 Areas:
- Microsoft Office support (content creation but did not elaborate) and responsiveness
- Freezes and crashes (frustratingly again without examples)
- Portable copies - no issues with it, it's one thing he has observed people LOVE about NVDA and suggests if there are suggestions or ways we could improve this, it would be worthwhile.


Derek:
- Web and Browse mode improvements, especially for modern features such as infinite lists, and why does a tree view hide everything from Browse mode?  Also not tolerant enough of where people have incorrectly marked things up which inadvertently make it impossible for all but very advanced users to navigate.
- Integration with other AT such as speech (input?) and switch access, building on things such as dictation bridge.  (Incorporated praise for features such as sticky keys out of the box which we are the only screen reader to do apparently).
- "Computer Vision" to do things like auto label buttons, auto OCR, present hidden content etc
- since live region abuse is so common, add the ability to block a live region.
- Better support for Google docs, eg quick nav mode.
- Start doing more with the speech refactor we put so much effort into.  For instance to replace some speech with earcons.
- Windows store version - both to prove we are modern and worthy of Windows continued support, and to reassure companies worried about security.

Joseph Lee:
- What we did well in 2021 was communication and keeping up with technology, and with improvements to documentation of issues etc, and our improvements to Office.
- Listening to stakeholders and especially the movement towards the add-on store is another great achievement.

Two key areas for 2022:
- Communication: More documentation through source code
- Research relevance (mostly in terms of people who are researching us or the history of screen readers?)

Anatoliy (Thinking and will get back to me)

 

 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 

8961 - 8980 of 99775