Date   

Re: NVDA Features feedback

 

On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 06:45 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
The problem though is the time it takes to look at a web page if you just use arrows and tab etc.
-
Yep.  And there really aren't that many browse mode single letter keyboard shortcuts (23, listed below) and most people will only use some of them with great frequency, so knowing even 5 of them can speed things up immensely.  My chosen 5 would be H, U, V, B, E and, for good measure, probably the 1 through 6 so that you can jump to specific heading levels.

  • h: heading
  • l: list
  • i: list item
  • t: table
  • k: link
  • n: nonLinked text
  • f: form field
  • u: unvisited link
  • v: visited link
  • e: edit field
  • b: button
  • x: checkbox
  • c: combo box
  • r: radio button
  • q: block quote
  • s: separator
  • m: frame
  • g: graphic
  • d: landmark
  • o: embedded object (audio and video player, application, dialog, etc.)
  • 1 to 6: headings at levels 1 to 6 respectively
  • a: annotation (comment, editor revision, etc.)
  • w: spelling error

The Quick Commands Reference can be brought up with the press of NVDA + N, H, Q, when you need to find any seldom used command you either think may exist, or know exists but can't remember it.

No one memorizes every possible command in a program like NVDA, Word, or an operating system like Windows.  But NVDA's Quick Commands Reference, and its analog in other screen readers, is an incredible quick aid and one of the commands one should memorize very early on is the one needed to bring it up for review.  You will have many, many occasions where you'll need to do so to find that command you use maybe once a year, if that.  But it's also a godsend for neophytes to NVDA, too.  You make quite a bit of reference to it earlier on and less as time marches on. 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment.

        ~ Dorothy Nevill

 


Re: Question about an add-on

Gene
 

No add-on is needed.  If you are using the desktop layout, the command to move from object review to screen review is numpad insert numpad 7.  To return to object navigation, which you should do when you are finished in screen review, the command is numpad insert numpad 1.  Others will provide the laptop command.
 
But in NVDA, when you use either object navigation or screen review, it isn’t the same as the JAWS cursor.  There are certain keys used and you don’t use ordinary movement commands.  If you use such commands such as the arrow keys or control home and end, for example, you will still be moving the application cursor. 
 
Gene
 

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 8:53 AM
Subject: [nvda] Question about an add-on
 
Hi everybody!

This is my very first letter, I am still new to the list, so I greet
everyone very much. I use the two screen readers alternately for now,
but I would like to use NVDA more intensively and efficiently. I have a
question about an add-on: is there an add-on that works with keyboard
shortcuts like switching the jaws and pc cursors, so can I use the
numpad plus and minus keys to switch between cursors? Thank you very
much in advance for your reply and help!

With Best Regards,
Tibor






locked Re: GMail Basic Setting With NVDA

 

On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 09:37 AM, Dzhovani wrote:
If GMail cannot use HTML as intended,
-
What does that even mean?  The Gmail webmail platform is very accessible and well-laid out.

Gene has put it well.  You learn the keyboard shortcuts for the programs you wish to use, and the specific shortcuts in that program that you use frequently.  That always has been, and always will be.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment.

        ~ Dorothy Nevill

 


Question about an add-on

 

Hi everybody!

This is my very first letter, I am still new to the list, so I greet everyone very much. I use the two screen readers alternately for now, but I would like to use NVDA more intensively and efficiently. I have a question about an add-on: is there an add-on that works with keyboard shortcuts like switching the jaws and pc cursors, so can I use the numpad plus and minus keys to switch between cursors? Thank you very much in advance for your reply and help!

With Best Regards,
Tibor


Re: Sluggishness with LibraOffice Calc

Richard B. McDonald
 

Hi Stuart!

 

Do I understand your below to mean that you *are not* experiencing this sluggishness?

 

I confirmed that I have the “speak characters as you type” option “on” in NVDA.  My Windows version is 20H2.  Although different from yours (21H2), I do not think that this makes a difference.  However, I am indeed experiencing this sluggishness.

 

I tried it with JAWS (2020) and Narrator.  Basically, I experienced the same sluggishness; although it was a bit worse with JAWS and a bit less with Narrator.  The file I am working with is in Excel (.xlsx) format.

 

Thanks,

Richard

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of V Stuart Foote
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2021 12:17 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Sluggishness with LibraOffice Calc

 

With Win10 (21H2) no NVDA sluggishness  with LibreOffice Calc build 7.2.4

Sounding typed characters as typed is found in NVDA --> Preferences --> Settings --> Keyboard   -->  "Speak typed characters"


locked Re: GMail Basic Setting With NVDA

Gene
 

You learned shortcut commands to use your e-mail program.  Do you complain about that?  This is a case where a site is serving as an e-mail platform and, of course, it is to one’s great advantage to learn certain shortcuts.  And the shortcuts may have been intentionally designed to be similar, where possible and practical, to those typically used in e-mail programs.  Perhaps alt r is reply.  That’s very similar to control r. 
 
While I don’t often use e-mail in web interfaces, it is a logical assumption that you would learn the small number of shortcuts such as compose, reply, and a small number of others that you would use regularly.  And if you don’t want to learn a shortcut you don’t use often, you can get to what you want in other ways.  For example, there may be a shortcut to go to the trash folder.  What if I don’t know it?  I can use the screen-reader’s search to search for trash.  But if I use the trash folder often, it would be to my advantage to learn the shortcut. 
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Dzhovani
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 8:37 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] GMail Basic Setting With NVDA
 
Life is too short to learn every website's preferred way to use their product. If GMail cannot use HTML as intended, I'll pointedly use something else. My limited brain capacity is reserved for stuff where remembering 20 unique key combinations, there effects, and side effects actually matter.


locked Re: GMail Basic Setting With NVDA

Dzhovani
 

Life is too short to learn every website's preferred way to use their product. If GMail cannot use HTML as intended, I'll pointedly use something else. My limited brain capacity is reserved for stuff where remembering 20 unique key combinations, there effects, and side effects actually matter.


Re: NVDA Features feedback

Steve Nutt
 

The problem though is the time it takes to look at a web page if you just use arrows and tab etc.

If you know that H jumps to a heading, that isn't "many" commands.

All the best

Steve

--
To subscribe to our News and Special Offers list, go to https://www.comproom.co.uk/subscribe

Computer Room Services
77 Exeter Close
Stevenage
Hertfordshire
SG1 4PW
T: +44(0)1438-742286
M: +44(0)7956-334938
F: +44(0)1438-759589
E: steve@...
W: https://www.comproom.co.uk

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Martin J. Dürst
Sent: 17 December 2021 09:41
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback

There are also many seeing people who only use 10 or less percent of a program's functionality. I tend to be in this group. Some people feel more at ease with a small number of commands that they can repeat and combine, others feel more at ease with a large number of commands.

Often, learning a few more commands may improve speed, but it can add to cognitive load. Put maybe a bit too directly, people may want to concentrate on the content of a Web page, not on how to read it most efficiently. But everybody is different, and having many functions available is gives people a chance to find the combination that works best for them.

Regards, Martin.

On 2021-12-17 18:06, Steve Nutt via groups.io wrote:

Yes, my own statistic, not backed up by anything scientific, is that blind people only know about 10 percent of their screen reader functions.



The amount of people that only use arrows and tab to traverse the web, amazes me. They get there, but it is o so slow.



All the best


Steve



--

To subscribe to our News and Special Offers list, go to
<https://www.comproom.co.uk/subscribe>
https://www.comproom.co.uk/subscribe



Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

T: +44(0)1438-742286

M: +44(0)7956-334938

F: +44(0)1438-759589

E: <mailto:steve@...> steve@...

W: <https://www.comproom.co.uk> https://www.comproom.co.uk


Re: NVDA Features feedback

Gene
 

What does works best mean?  I think your analogy is a bad one.  A lot of sighted people know little about programs they use but they can do things efficiently knowing little.  Computers and popular operating systems are consumer products.  As such, they are designed to be the easiest to use with the least knowledge.  It is often obvious to a sighted person what to point at and click to do something.  They don’t require a good deal of training to use computers nor to memorize various commands to do so quickly and efficiently. 
 
If it takes a blind person a minute or longer to listen to all the navigation links before finally getting to what he/she wants to read, that is inefficient.  You can say that the blind person is using the program as he/she wants and avoiding cognitive overload but I think that most of the time, the person simply either doesn’t know better or doesn’t know how to find out how to use the program better. 
 
For reasons I’m not sure of, it appears to me that the Internet is one of the most poorly used computer activities by the most blind people.  I should say that that was how things seemed to me perhaps fifteen years ago when I did an Internet tutorial to try to improve matters.  Judging from comments I’ve seen recently, it appears to still be the case, or largely so. 
 
And taking inordinate amounts of time to find content on page after page will discourage use.  If someone repeatedly wades through a lot of content and finally gets to what he/she wants, that may contribute to less retention, more frustration, and fatigue so the person is concentrating less on the web page. 
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
 
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 3:41 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
 
There are also many seeing people who only use 10 or less percent of a
program's functionality. I tend to be in this group. Some people feel
more at ease with a small number of commands that they can repeat and
combine, others feel more at ease with a large number of commands.

Often, learning a few more commands may improve speed, but it can add to
cognitive load. Put maybe a bit too directly, people may want to
concentrate on the content of a Web page, not on how to read it most
efficiently. But everybody is different, and having many functions
available is gives people a chance to find the combination that works
best for them.

Regards,   Martin.

On 2021-12-17 18:06, Steve Nutt via groups.io wrote:

> Yes, my own statistic, not backed up by anything scientific, is that blind people only know about 10 percent of their screen reader functions.
>
>  
>
> The amount of people that only use arrows and tab to traverse the web, amazes me. They get there, but it is o so slow.
>
>  
>
> All the best
>
>
> Steve
>
>  
>
> --
>
> To subscribe to our News and Special Offers list, go to  <https://www.comproom.co.uk/subscribe> https://www.comproom.co.uk/subscribe
>
>  
>
> Computer Room Services
>
> 77 Exeter Close
>
> Stevenage
>
> Hertfordshire
>
> SG1 4PW
>
> T: +44(0)1438-742286
>
> M: +44(0)7956-334938
>
> F: +44(0)1438-759589
>
> E:  <mailto:steve@...> steve@...
>
> W:  <https://www.comproom.co.uk> https://www.comproom.co.uk






Re: NVDA Features feedback

Martin J. Dürst <duerst@...>
 

There are also many seeing people who only use 10 or less percent of a program's functionality. I tend to be in this group. Some people feel more at ease with a small number of commands that they can repeat and combine, others feel more at ease with a large number of commands.

Often, learning a few more commands may improve speed, but it can add to cognitive load. Put maybe a bit too directly, people may want to concentrate on the content of a Web page, not on how to read it most efficiently. But everybody is different, and having many functions available is gives people a chance to find the combination that works best for them.

Regards, Martin.

On 2021-12-17 18:06, Steve Nutt via groups.io wrote:

Yes, my own statistic, not backed up by anything scientific, is that blind people only know about 10 percent of their screen reader functions.
The amount of people that only use arrows and tab to traverse the web, amazes me. They get there, but it is o so slow.
All the best
Steve
--
To subscribe to our News and Special Offers list, go to <https://www.comproom.co.uk/subscribe> https://www.comproom.co.uk/subscribe
Computer Room Services
77 Exeter Close
Stevenage
Hertfordshire
SG1 4PW
T: +44(0)1438-742286
M: +44(0)7956-334938
F: +44(0)1438-759589
E: <mailto:steve@...> steve@...
W: <https://www.comproom.co.uk> https://www.comproom.co.uk


Re: NVDA speaking numbers

Steve Nutt
 

Ah, this is when you press the read character key several times quickly.

 

It first reads out the character, then it reads out the ANSI value of that character.

 

All the best


Steve

 

--

To subscribe to our News and Special Offers list, go to https://www.comproom.co.uk/subscribe

 

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

T: +44(0)1438-742286

M: +44(0)7956-334938

F: +44(0)1438-759589

E: steve@...

W: https://www.comproom.co.uk

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of JinYoun
Sent: 16 December 2021 17:44
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA speaking numbers

 

Hi, I'm not sure how to best explain it. Sometimes, I'm not sure if it is because I pressed the wrong key combination, but instead of NVDA speaking out charactors and words, it seems to be reading things out in wierd numbers... 
I hope I make sense... 


Re: NVDA Features feedback

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Tim,

 

Yes, my own statistic, not backed up by anything scientific, is that blind people only know about 10 percent of their screen reader functions.

 

The amount of people that only use arrows and tab to traverse the web, amazes me. They get there, but it is o so slow.

 

All the best


Steve

 

--

To subscribe to our News and Special Offers list, go to https://www.comproom.co.uk/subscribe

 

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

T: +44(0)1438-742286

M: +44(0)7956-334938

F: +44(0)1438-759589

E: steve@...

W: https://www.comproom.co.uk

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of tim
Sent: 16 December 2021 15:15
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback

 

That is why screen readers have ways to turn on or off what you want to hear.

The main problem is people don't want to learn there screen reader. They want it handed to them pre customized to fit them.

With new features coming out in html and code programing I want it to say everything.

Then I can turn off what I don't want.

You learn that by reading the manual and help files for what ever screen reader your using.

Do that and will answer at least 99% of the questions asked on lists.

I have ben using screen readers for over 30 years and still don't know everything  in a screen reader. That is only because most of the features I don't need. When I do need them. I read and see if manual has something and if not then I ask on list.

Most of the time the answer is in the manual or help files.

 

On 12/15/2021 5:54 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

I've stayed out of this discussion, but I have to say that in large measure, I agree with Gene. I do not care about figures, lists, block quotes, as well as any other nonfunctional symbols, and I want them gone from my screen reading experience. Reading articles with all that garbage is painful. also email messages. List with one item. List with one item. Why have a list with one item, please? I get that some of these can be useful in some situations. But those of us who have been around the web for longer than a couple of years managed quite well without all this and I for one would like to go back there, and only access something like a list if it is actually worth something, i.e. it really is a list, perhaps one of many on a page that I might wish to navigate among with a quicknav key. But bullets and figures and block quotes, forget it. I'm smart enough to figure stuff out from context. Been doing it for decades and I don't need or want the time consuming verbosity. I want to be able to shut everything off that I don't want and I'd like to find it all in one place if possible in settings. 

On 12/15/2021 2:44 PM, Gene wrote:

You said:

The thing is, Gene, if history is any indicator, the maximum verbosity out of the box is not about "most people," but, as I said, beginners.

 

While that is true in various instances, I don’t think it is true when it comes to web ;pages. 

 

This is something I wouldn’t assume in terms of what a lot of users change.  When I see parts of web pages pasted from even many experienced users, I see all the deffault information unchanged.  Block quotes, list notices, etc.  While many people change these things, I suspect far more than you might suspect don’t. 

 

At present, the NVDA philosophy, I don’t know about other screen-readers appears to be, the more default verbosity the better.  IN the Punctuation/symbol pronunciation settings dialog are all sorts of structures of all sorts of shapes.  They are almost all set to be spoken at the none level so you will hear then no matter what level of punctuation you use.  I’ve seen web pages where a shape symbol doesn’t just occur once but is repeated many times.  And even if once, why hear it if it is only a visual symbol directing the eye to something? 

 

The announcement of figure, out of figure adds nothing to my understanding or comprehension.  Its just more words.  It is not user definable. 

 

I’m not saying these options shouldn’t be available.  But I don’t think we need to hear about every shape symbol on a web page by default. 

 

Since I have bloc quote notification turned off, I don’t know how often I come across them.  I looked them up and here is the relevant part of a Google web snippet":

Block quotes are used for direct quotations that are longer than 40 words. They should be offset from the main text and do not include quotation marks. Introduce the block quote on a new line.

 

In short, I could be reading all sorts of articles and come across block quotes a lot.  If I’m reading something, I generally want to read bloc quotes because they are integral parts of the text.  If someone wants them on for some reason, fine but why by default?  And how many people even know what they are and what they will skip if they skip one?  I doubt most people know, so for most people, its just words.

 

I’d really like to see a survey of users to see what elements they actually use and how many most people don’t. 

 

An interesting example is the one brought up by Sarah.  Does Sarah’s example of clicking on a triangle occur often enough to justify it being on as a default setting?  I’ve seen web pages with various shapes that do nothing functional.  I haven’t seen one with a functional symbol. 

 

Is there a way NVDA could discriminate between functionless shape symbols and functional symbols and be set to announce only functional shape ones?  ``

 

I think these things should be discussed among developers and users. 

 

If the topic doesn’t generate much response, then perhaps a lot of people don’t care. 

 

It can be argued that if someone is a student writing something like a term paper who might want all this verbosity on, How do you make it likely that people who need to know about verbosity settings will know about them?  I’m not sure about the answer but also, is it reasonable to have those who don’t use such structures and who are reading to read hear them?

Gene

Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2021 3:42 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback

 

On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 01:58 PM, Gene wrote:

I do object to the amount of verbosity when in web ;pages.  Why is bloc quote on?  I question how many people want to know information about lists.  There may be other notifications most people don’t care about and I think it would be useful to have a survey about that.

-
The thing is, Gene, if history is any indicator, the maximum verbosity out of the box is not about "most people," but, as I said, beginners.

Block quote, particularly in the contexts where it's in use, can make it much easier to navigate between the various levels of blocks of quoted text, or past them.

And I don't think there is ever going to come a day when "most users" are going to be the consideration for the "out of the box" state of verbosity on any screen reader.  It's maximized because those new to screen readers need to know way more precisely what's happening at the outset than either you or I do, and we should also know how to turn off verbosity we don't want.

Discussion regarding announcements that don't allow choice of any sort is an entirey different subject.  And there will be times where the choice made will not make you happy, and others where it will, and that's for the generic you.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

       ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

 


Re: NVDA Features feedback

Martin J. Dürst <duerst@...>
 

What Brian says below is most of the story about CR and LF, but there's some additional twist. The distinction between CR and LF isn't used on modern systems, but it's still present as a difference between Operating Systems.

Windows usually uses a CR-LF sequence where Unix/Linux uses only LF. Originally, the Mac used CR only as far as I remember, but switched to LF. Various Internet standards require CR-LF, others are more lenient and work with the various combinations.

Advanced plaintext editors and similar software can handle all conventions, and have functionality to detect, maintain, or change the convention. But some plaintext editors, in particular Notepad on Windows, don't. So if you open a file from Linux in Notepad, it will look as if it doesn't have any line breaks.

Regards, Martin.

On 2021-12-16 06:33, Brian Vogel via groups.io wrote:
On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 02:06 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:


I was taught that return and a new line are not the same thing.
-
That both is, and is not, true based upon the context.  I am probably one of "the oldsters" here, just a hair shy of 60, and started in computing when punchcards were still in use as were tractor feed printers.
And most of the differences came into play when talking about a tractor feed printer.
There was the carriage return, usually referred to with CR, which did just that: Move the print head (carriage) back to the left margin of the current line without feeding the paper.
There was the line feed, usually referred to with LF, which did just that: Feed the paper without moving the print head position.
There was the CR-LF combo, what we now think of and get, in practice, if we hit the Enter or Return key (and they are labeled as both, it depends on the keyboard).  There is, of course, no paper involved, but conceptually you are returning the carriage to its leftmost position and feeding the virtual paper up by a single line (or however your line spacing is set).  In writing systems that read right to left, substitute right for left.
There is really no point in trying to separate out Return or Enter in any modern computing context.
--
Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043
*Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.*
~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States ( https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/23/health/anti-vaccination-movement-us.html ) , September 23, 2019


Re: If you ever want a message deleted from the archive after you've posted, and replies to same blocked #adminnotice

Sarah k Alawami
 

I think if you hit the quote reply then delete the reply that is there that you are quoting it should in theory work. You can try it the next time you want to try what brian suggested.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Louise Pfau
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2021 1:38 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] If you ever want a message deleted from the archive after you've posted, and replies to same blocked #adminnotice

 

Hi Brian.  I'm referencing points raised in several messages in this thread, so I'm not quoting a specific message.  I'm not a group owner, but I've seen the "More" submenus you've described.  When I reply to messages using the web interface, I don't quote a post using the "quote post" button on the toolbar unless I actually want to quote something for context.  There is a collapsed button at the bottom of each message in the web interface that says "Show quoted text", but I don't expand it either.  When I used my E-mail client to post and reply to messages, I tried to remember to select and delete the previous information from the thread unless I was quoting, but I don't know of a way to do that using the web interface because the only text that appears in the message body edit field when composing a reply is the text that I myself have typed.

thanks,

Louise


Re: Reading of MMC in windows

Thomas N. Chan
 

What I do right now is to type in an extra command in the elevated  command prompt with admin's rights, since I need to do things on it.
I also created a batch file to pull up NVDA and also MMC at the same time. maybe before MMC is executed.
does what I want, so I will just leave this as it is


Regards,
Thomas N. Chan


On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 4:00 AM Richard Wells <richwels@...> wrote:

Thomas: What I would do is run NVDA portable as administrator. Then all of that elevated stuff would read. Others may say that this is not a good idea, but for some tasks, this is just what I have to do if I don't want an installed NVDA and need admin access.

On 12/16/2021 2:05 AM, Thomas N. Chan wrote:

Hi all,

I notice one lack of NVDA portable copy which I am using.

Whether in windows 7 or 10, this problem still occur.

If you would type in devmgmt.msc in run box and bring up device manager.

NVDA is not reading any of the stuff

 

Even in MMC and create your own MMC snap-in.

Type in mmc in run box

Then you hit add snap-in ctrl – m

 

NVDA is not reading anything.

 

So you can imagine in windows server, all these is not reading, hard to manage those server pool without all these features  working.

 

Do I need to change any settings?

 

 

--------------------
regards
Thomas N. Chan


Re: How to copy NVDA user settings before logging into windows without the need for add-ons that are installed in NVDA?

 

On Thu, Dec 16, 2021 at 01:35 AM, Ján Kulik wrote:
Is there another way to copy custom settings before logging in to Windows without having to ignore the installed add-ons in NVDA?
-
Can you please rephrase and clarify?

What I get from the reply from Nikos is that a way is wanted to copy all customized NVDA user settings without also picking up all of the add-ons that may also have been installed.

But I don't know how you would propose to do that, or anything, really, on a particular machine prior to Windows being started since you don't have access to anything on the machine unless you are within a running Windows instance to gain access to it.

It would also help to have specifics about what, exactly, you mean by, "the add-ons I had to remove to avoid conflicts with NVDA before logging in to Windows can cause a security risk."  What is flagging this "security risk" and what could be identifying it prior to logging into Windows?

Additional information and clarification is required about what it is you're doing that is causing difficulty, as a starting point.  Then a clear description of what it is you're trying to accomplish. 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

       ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

 


Re: If you ever want a message deleted from the archive after you've posted, and replies to same blocked #adminnotice

 

Louise (and anyone else who uses, or may be interested in learning about using, the Groups.io web interface),

Blessedly, the Groups.io web interface does not do what most email clients do, and that's bottom quoting everything that's in the message to which you're replying.  In fact, it doesn't automatically quote anything.  When you want to retain some snippet from the message you're replying to, you select the text you wish to be TOP quoted prior to hitting the Reply link and that material, and only that material, will be block quoted at the top and your insert cursor placed below it.  Someone, and I cannot recall who, told me at one point that it wasn't easy for him to tell where the block quoted material ended and my reply began, so I have adopted the practice of putting a hyphen alone on its own line before starting my own reply content when I am retaining top quoted material for context.  So your observation, "because the only text that appears in the message body edit field when composing a reply is the text that I myself have typed," is spot on if you did not intentionally select any text in the message to which you're replying before hitting the Reply link.

I almost never use the block quote button in the compose window (and that's what it shows when i hover over it, but it's possible it could be announced as quote post, but that would be misleading if it did).  It's handy if you really need to do a quote-response-quote-response style reply such that you can keep block quoting single lines or small portions from several prior messages.  If I want to do this style for a single message, I just select the whole thing before hitting Reply, then placing my cursor where I want to break the whole block quoted portion into a "reply piece" above and then do my hyphen and respond below it.  Then it's lather, rinse, repeat for all the subsequent chunks.  This is a case where the screen reader announcing block quote is, to me, very handy, as it tells you when one starts and, if it happens to be long, lets you jump out of the block quote to the next fresh response text with the Q browsing single-letter NVDA shortcut.

On the web interface, the show quoted text button is present (usually at the end of the current message, if it was sent by e-mail and the person who sent it bottom quoted anything) only if there exists quoted material that could be shown.  However, even when that material is hidden this way, it does exist in the message body.  This is done to make messages more clean and readable.  But it doesn't make them any "cleaner" when it comes to archives searches, where if you choose a phrase from the original message and it's been bottom-quoted, sometimes multiple times and multiple quote levels deep, all of the individual messages with that phrase in it are returned.  It makes it much more difficult to isolate source material, which is why I ask people to trim when nothing that's been said so far, or just a tiny bit of it, is needed in order to know who and/or what is being responded to in a given topic.

By the way, Gmail's web interface does something very similar in terms of its presentation of quoted material, but, and it's a really important but, Gmail automatically bottom quotes the whole prior message when you do a reply.  There is a small button at the bottom of the compose window, prior to your signature if you're using one, that appears as a thin button with three dots that, when I hover over it, shows, "Show trimmed content."  Why they use the term "trimmed content" I'm not quite certain, as it's not truly been trimmed, just hidden from view.  And in the case of Gmail, even just in regular mail exchanges, I will show that trimmed content and nuke it before replying so that it doesn't keep being dragged along if it's not needed.  Most email users these days (at least in the sighted world, and plenty in the blind and low vision world, too) use threaded or conversation view in their email or webmail clients.  That makes it easy to refer back to earlier messages when you need to, so having prior messages bottom quoted and hidden via the Show trimmed content feature doesn't really do much good.

You'll probably notice that all of my messages are absent a "Show Quoted Text" button at the bottom of the message in the Groups.io web interface.  And that's because it's following a convention that I have previously stated is common in "the sighted world" and that is the use of brief top quotes when you need to establish a clear context for what comes afterward.  Anything quoted at the bottom of a message is considered "flotsam and jetsam" that just so happens to have been left there, and it gets masked when it is.

In topics where there may be many participants, and we have quite a few of those, I don't want to have to search past the content of the current message in an attempt to figure out what it is in reply to when that is not instantly clear.  I want the "what it's in reply to" to be briefly quoted at the outset, with the new material following.  But it should be a brief quote.  It's obnoxious to top quote 5 paragraphs of material before you start your reply.  Anyone reading a topic has either been reading all along, or can go back to play catch up if they've made late entry into an ongoing discussion.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

       ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

 


Re: If you ever want a message deleted from the archive after you've posted, and replies to same blocked #adminnotice

Louise Pfau
 

Hi Brian.  I'm referencing points raised in several messages in this thread, so I'm not quoting a specific message.  I'm not a group owner, but I've seen the "More" submenus you've described.  When I reply to messages using the web interface, I don't quote a post using the "quote post" button on the toolbar unless I actually want to quote something for context.  There is a collapsed button at the bottom of each message in the web interface that says "Show quoted text", but I don't expand it either.  When I used my E-mail client to post and reply to messages, I tried to remember to select and delete the previous information from the thread unless I was quoting, but I don't know of a way to do that using the web interface because the only text that appears in the message body edit field when composing a reply is the text that I myself have typed.

thanks,

Louise


Re: How to copy NVDA user settings before logging into windows without the need for add-ons that are installed in NVDA?

Ján Kulik
 

Well, they mainly only solve mistakes, but nothing is said about the proposals.


Re: Sluggishness with LibraOffice Calc

Gene
 

It can also be toggled on and off with NVDA key ;plus number 2 on the main keyboard.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2021 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Sluggishness with LibraOffice Calc
 
With Win10 (21H2) no NVDA sluggishness  with LibreOffice Calc build 7.2.4

Sounding typed characters as typed is found in NVDA --> Preferences --> Settings --> Keyboard   -->  "Speak typed characters"

10281 - 10300 of 101168