Date   

locked Re: GMail Basic Setting With NVDA

Nimer Jaber
 

Does NVDA have the type of tutorials that you are talking about here below?
I am not aware of an NVDA tutorial covering the use of web apps put out by nvaccess, but others in the community have done this. I've put out a few tutorials for web apps at my YouTube channel, for example. Check out the channel and any videos on that channel at youtube.com/blindtechadventures. There are videos there for accessing Gmail with standard mode, accessing Facebook, using Google Docs, etc.


locked Re: GMail Basic Setting With NVDA

Gene
 

I don’t know what is causing the problem.  Others may have an idea.  I don’t think this should matter but I seldom have used Internet site keyboarde shortcuts and I may be wrong.  Have you tried them both with browse mode on and off? 
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Beaver
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 11:44 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] GMail Basic Setting With NVDA
 

Yep, I had done that already but just double checked and it says keyboard shortcuts are on.  Still no response to the keys though.


Do I need to use another key with the indicated shortcut keys?  I have tried alt and ctrl but still nothing.


Dan Beaver

On 12/17/2021 12:16 PM, Gene wrote:
You have to turn keyboard shortcuts on.
  This is a Google web page snippet.  If you have problems doing what is directed, let us know.
 
1
Open Gmail .
2
At the top right, click Settings. See all settings.
3
Scroll to the Keyboard shortcuts section and select Keyboard shortcuts on.
4
At the bottom, click Save Changes.
 
Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Beaver
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] GMail Basic Setting With NVDA
 

I have tried to use the standard view and have tried using the shortcut keys they publish.  however, I can't get the shortcuts to work. When I press them I get no response and no action from Firefox on the google page at all.  I have tried them on the gmail page as well.

 

Are the shortcut keys supposed to be combined with some other keys or something?

 

Thanks.

 

Dan Beaver

On 12/17/2021 10:58 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Yeah j  for next, k for next, * plus a for select all, number  for move to j junk. If you hit the ? you will get a list of keys. Read with all punctuation on so you can get the one I posted. It is actually a very good experience.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 6:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] GMail Basic Setting With NVDA

 

You learned shortcut commands to use your e-mail program.  Do you complain about that?  This is a case where a site is serving as an e-mail platform and, of course, it is to one’s great advantage to learn certain shortcuts.  And the shortcuts may have been intentionally designed to be similar, where possible and practical, to those typically used in e-mail programs.  Perhaps alt r is reply.  That’s very similar to control r. 

 

While I don’t often use e-mail in web interfaces, it is a logical assumption that you would learn the small number of shortcuts such as compose, reply, and a small number of others that you would use regularly.  And if you don’t want to learn a shortcut you don’t use often, you can get to what you want in other ways.  For example, there may be a shortcut to go to the trash folder.  What if I don’t know it?  I can use the screen-reader’s search to search for trash.  But if I use the trash folder often, it would be to my advantage to learn the shortcut. 

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

From: Dzhovani

Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 8:37 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] GMail Basic Setting With NVDA

 

Life is too short to learn every website's preferred way to use their product. If GMail cannot use HTML as intended, I'll pointedly use something else. My limited brain capacity is reserved for stuff where remembering 20 unique key combinations, there effects, and side effects actually matter.

-- 
Dan Beaver (KA4DAN)
-- 
Dan Beaver (KA4DAN)


locked Re: GMail Basic Setting With NVDA

Nimer Jaber
 

Do I need to use another key with the indicated shortcut keys?
No, you don't. Be sure that you are using NVDA with focus mode, not browse mode. Also, be sure that you are not in an edit field when attempting to use the shortcuts, as otherwise, you will be typing in text.

Thanks.



locked Re: GMail Basic Setting With NVDA

Dan Beaver
 

Yep, I had done that already but just double checked and it says keyboard shortcuts are on.  Still no response to the keys though.


Do I need to use another key with the indicated shortcut keys?  I have tried alt and ctrl but still nothing.


Dan Beaver

On 12/17/2021 12:16 PM, Gene wrote:
You have to turn keyboard shortcuts on.
  This is a Google web page snippet.  If you have problems doing what is directed, let us know.
 
1
Open Gmail .
2
At the top right, click Settings. See all settings.
3
Scroll to the Keyboard shortcuts section and select Keyboard shortcuts on.
4
At the bottom, click Save Changes.
 
Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Beaver
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] GMail Basic Setting With NVDA
 

I have tried to use the standard view and have tried using the shortcut keys they publish.  however, I can't get the shortcuts to work. When I press them I get no response and no action from Firefox on the google page at all.  I have tried them on the gmail page as well.


Are the shortcut keys supposed to be combined with some other keys or something?


Thanks.


Dan Beaver

On 12/17/2021 10:58 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Yeah j  for next, k for next, * plus a for select all, number  for move to j junk. If you hit the ? you will get a list of keys. Read with all punctuation on so you can get the one I posted. It is actually a very good experience.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 6:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] GMail Basic Setting With NVDA

 

You learned shortcut commands to use your e-mail program.  Do you complain about that?  This is a case where a site is serving as an e-mail platform and, of course, it is to one’s great advantage to learn certain shortcuts.  And the shortcuts may have been intentionally designed to be similar, where possible and practical, to those typically used in e-mail programs.  Perhaps alt r is reply.  That’s very similar to control r. 

 

While I don’t often use e-mail in web interfaces, it is a logical assumption that you would learn the small number of shortcuts such as compose, reply, and a small number of others that you would use regularly.  And if you don’t want to learn a shortcut you don’t use often, you can get to what you want in other ways.  For example, there may be a shortcut to go to the trash folder.  What if I don’t know it?  I can use the screen-reader’s search to search for trash.  But if I use the trash folder often, it would be to my advantage to learn the shortcut. 

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

From: Dzhovani

Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 8:37 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] GMail Basic Setting With NVDA

 

Life is too short to learn every website's preferred way to use their product. If GMail cannot use HTML as intended, I'll pointedly use something else. My limited brain capacity is reserved for stuff where remembering 20 unique key combinations, there effects, and side effects actually matter.

-- 
Dan Beaver (KA4DAN)
-- 
Dan Beaver (KA4DAN)


locked Re: GMail Basic Setting With NVDA

Laurie Mehta
 

Hi Nimer and others,

Does NVDA have the type of tutorials that you are talking about here below?

Thanks for any information on these!

-LM

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 8:15 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] GMail Basic Setting With NVDA

 

If GMail cannot use HTML as intended, I'll pointedly use something else.

Web apps are relatively new, and provide screen reader users enhancements above and beyond what basic HTML offers. Web apps allow you to get a much less cluttered experience, which in many cases, is more efficient. Consider, for instance, facebook.com as an example. While it is true that you can arrow throughout the entire site, and you can navigate by HTML elements, you will immediately find that you get overwhelmed if you do so, because of all the stuff on the page. However, if you use its built-in keyboard shortcuts in web app mode, you will discover that you can easily jump between posts, comment on one with a single letter command, post a status with a single letter command, etc. This goes for Twitter, YouTube and YouTube Music, Gmail, Office 365, and a growing number of other sites. Simply making the statement that you're happy using the web in HTML mode will make you less productive, less efficient, and will make you want to rip your hairs out with a very many number of sites.

 

Please, I urge you, consider getting training on the use of web apps. If your trainer doesn't know about, care about, or bother to teach them, give them a bad review and request another. If you learn best without a trainer, then please consider looking up information on how to access your web app of choice with its built-in keyboard commands.

 

I do think that screen reader vendors need to also build in specific tutorials and guides in their manuals specific to web apps, as they have done for Word, Excel, and some other apps, and as they have done with the web in general. Freedom Scientific is ahead on this, as they've put together some tutorials on some common web apps like Gmail.

 

Nonetheless, I cannot emphasize any more than I already am, the vital importance that learning and getting comfortable with web apps will impact your screen reader usage on a growing number of sites.


locked Re: GMail Basic Setting With NVDA

Gene
 

You have to turn keyboard shortcuts on.
  This is a Google web page snippet.  If you have problems doing what is directed, let us know.
 
1
Open Gmail .
2
At the top right, click Settings. See all settings.
3
Scroll to the Keyboard shortcuts section and select Keyboard shortcuts on.
4
At the bottom, click Save Changes.
 
Gene
-----Original Message-----

From: Dan Beaver
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] GMail Basic Setting With NVDA
 

I have tried to use the standard view and have tried using the shortcut keys they publish.  however, I can't get the shortcuts to work. When I press them I get no response and no action from Firefox on the google page at all.  I have tried them on the gmail page as well.


Are the shortcut keys supposed to be combined with some other keys or something?


Thanks.


Dan Beaver

On 12/17/2021 10:58 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Yeah j  for next, k for next, * plus a for select all, number  for move to j junk. If you hit the ? you will get a list of keys. Read with all punctuation on so you can get the one I posted. It is actually a very good experience.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 6:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] GMail Basic Setting With NVDA

 

You learned shortcut commands to use your e-mail program.  Do you complain about that?  This is a case where a site is serving as an e-mail platform and, of course, it is to one’s great advantage to learn certain shortcuts.  And the shortcuts may have been intentionally designed to be similar, where possible and practical, to those typically used in e-mail programs.  Perhaps alt r is reply.  That’s very similar to control r. 

 

While I don’t often use e-mail in web interfaces, it is a logical assumption that you would learn the small number of shortcuts such as compose, reply, and a small number of others that you would use regularly.  And if you don’t want to learn a shortcut you don’t use often, you can get to what you want in other ways.  For example, there may be a shortcut to go to the trash folder.  What if I don’t know it?  I can use the screen-reader’s search to search for trash.  But if I use the trash folder often, it would be to my advantage to learn the shortcut. 

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

From: Dzhovani

Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 8:37 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] GMail Basic Setting With NVDA

 

Life is too short to learn every website's preferred way to use their product. If GMail cannot use HTML as intended, I'll pointedly use something else. My limited brain capacity is reserved for stuff where remembering 20 unique key combinations, there effects, and side effects actually matter.

-- 
Dan Beaver (KA4DAN)


locked Re: GMail Basic Setting With NVDA

Dan Beaver
 

I have tried to use the standard view and have tried using the shortcut keys they publish.  however, I can't get the shortcuts to work. When I press them I get no response and no action from Firefox on the google page at all.  I have tried them on the gmail page as well.


Are the shortcut keys supposed to be combined with some other keys or something?


Thanks.


Dan Beaver

On 12/17/2021 10:58 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Yeah j  for next, k for next, * plus a for select all, number  for move to j junk. If you hit the ? you will get a list of keys. Read with all punctuation on so you can get the one I posted. It is actually a very good experience.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 6:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] GMail Basic Setting With NVDA

 

You learned shortcut commands to use your e-mail program.  Do you complain about that?  This is a case where a site is serving as an e-mail platform and, of course, it is to one’s great advantage to learn certain shortcuts.  And the shortcuts may have been intentionally designed to be similar, where possible and practical, to those typically used in e-mail programs.  Perhaps alt r is reply.  That’s very similar to control r. 

 

While I don’t often use e-mail in web interfaces, it is a logical assumption that you would learn the small number of shortcuts such as compose, reply, and a small number of others that you would use regularly.  And if you don’t want to learn a shortcut you don’t use often, you can get to what you want in other ways.  For example, there may be a shortcut to go to the trash folder.  What if I don’t know it?  I can use the screen-reader’s search to search for trash.  But if I use the trash folder often, it would be to my advantage to learn the shortcut. 

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

From: Dzhovani

Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 8:37 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] GMail Basic Setting With NVDA

 

Life is too short to learn every website's preferred way to use their product. If GMail cannot use HTML as intended, I'll pointedly use something else. My limited brain capacity is reserved for stuff where remembering 20 unique key combinations, there effects, and side effects actually matter.

-- 
Dan Beaver (KA4DAN)


Re: Problem while connected orbit reader with USB Hid Mode... with latest nvda version

Ali Colak
 

Turning off emulate vario ultra and switching to regular HİD seems
to do the trick.

On 12/14/21, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:
Hi,

Can you try NVDA 2021.3.1 RC 1 and see if that makes a difference?

Cheers,

Joseph






Re: NVDA Features feedback

 

On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 11:49 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
Actually it’s not a preference.
-
Sarah,

For the love of heaven, please pay attention to what you're replying to.

You wrote, of someone else, "They know how to use most of nvda and other screen reader functions but they prefer the arrows."

To which I responded that this is a preference, and it's not a problem, so long as they're aware of their options.

You also wrote, of yourself, in another topic, message   : I stick to screen review everywhere

That's as direct a statement as there is.  Yes, it could have been a write-o where you meant avoid rather than stick to, but as written it directly states a strong preference for screen review.

Several messages later ( ) you say just the opposite, which was not even present when I made my response.  You really need to watch what you're writing for consistency, as this is an example of a bloody mess.  No one can follow it.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment.

        ~ Dorothy Nevill

 


Re: NVDA Features feedback

Sarah k Alawami
 

Actually it’s not a preference. I don’t use screen review at all, unless I have to, I just, well, see the prior subject  as I can’t explain it at all.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 8:14 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback

 

On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 10:56 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

They know how to use most of nvda and other screen reader functions but they prefer the arrows.

-
In which case, they've made an informed choice that suits them.  Chacun à son goût.

It's ignorance of one's options that's almost never good.  But choosing any one of them in full knowledge of what options exist is not up for debate.  Witness your own strong preference for screen review and only screen review.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment.

        ~ Dorothy Nevill

 


Re: Question about an add-on

Sarah k Alawami
 

No, I don’t even use screen review. I can’t really explain it, but I really don’t see a difference. I use up and down arrow with the keyboard everywhere I go. I only use object nav in screen review mode to get around if I really must. I never could explain what I meant all these years. Arrows work correctly no matter where you are. So there really is no difference in how you navigate. Again I’m really struggling for words here so bare with me. I navigate notepad, jarte, etc, outlook with the arrows, and not object or screen review. I navigate qrz.com with  document view as there are things that the arrows will miss for what ever reason.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 8:09 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about an add-on

 

On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 11:01 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Actually I never switch views. I stick to screen review  everywhere I to. I don’t find myself having a different experience in each when I use arrows. I’m not sure why it is suggested to switch back and forth like this as for me there really is no difference, at all.

-
And that could be because you've trained yourself to "get to everything I want to" using screen review mode.  And there's nothing wrong with that.

But I do think that someone new to NVDA does need to be aware of the modes and play around with each before settling on the one they prefer, or using toggling as Gene suggests.

The only "right way" here is whatever suits you best after you've had a chance to acquaint yourself with the available modes and how they behave.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment.

        ~ Dorothy Nevill

 


Re: Question about an add-on

Gene
 

Object navigation, I think, is hard to learn by seeing a description.  I think that some basic things need to be described, such as an object being inside of another object, but in terms of really understanding it and learning it from teaching, I think a tutorial approach should be taken where you are told to be in a certain place and instructed to take certain actions so you can see what happens.
 
Screen review, on the other hand is about the same as using the JAWS cursor but you use different commands. 
 
As far as the layout of a screen or program, screen review may give you a feel for that but I’m not sure how much object navigation corresponds to what you see on screen.  I suspect some of it does, or more or less, and some of it doesn’t.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about an add-on
 
No  you cannot. I would consult the quick start and read about object navigation. It is actually a very easy concept to understand if you take the time to learn it. It can mostly give you the layout of a screen and program etc.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tibor Hermann
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 6:53 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Question about an add-on

Hi everybody!

This is my very first letter, I am still new to the list, so I greet everyone very much. I use the two screen readers alternately for now, but I would like to use NVDA more intensively and efficiently. I have a question about an add-on: is there an add-on that works with keyboard shortcuts like switching the jaws and pc cursors, so can I use the numpad plus and minus keys to switch between cursors? Thank you very much in advance for your reply and help!

With Best Regards,
Tibor












locked Re: GMail Basic Setting With NVDA

Nimer Jaber
 

If GMail cannot use HTML as intended, I'll pointedly use something else.
Web apps are relatively new, and provide screen reader users enhancements above and beyond what basic HTML offers. Web apps allow you to get a much less cluttered experience, which in many cases, is more efficient. Consider, for instance, facebook.com as an example. While it is true that you can arrow throughout the entire site, and you can navigate by HTML elements, you will immediately find that you get overwhelmed if you do so, because of all the stuff on the page. However, if you use its built-in keyboard shortcuts in web app mode, you will discover that you can easily jump between posts, comment on one with a single letter command, post a status with a single letter command, etc. This goes for Twitter, YouTube and YouTube Music, Gmail, Office 365, and a growing number of other sites. Simply making the statement that you're happy using the web in HTML mode will make you less productive, less efficient, and will make you want to rip your hairs out with a very many number of sites.

Please, I urge you, consider getting training on the use of web apps. If your trainer doesn't know about, care about, or bother to teach them, give them a bad review and request another. If you learn best without a trainer, then please consider looking up information on how to access your web app of choice with its built-in keyboard commands.

I do think that screen reader vendors need to also build in specific tutorials and guides in their manuals specific to web apps, as they have done for Word, Excel, and some other apps, and as they have done with the web in general. Freedom Scientific is ahead on this, as they've put together some tutorials on some common web apps like Gmail.

Nonetheless, I cannot emphasize any more than I already am, the vital importance that learning and getting comfortable with web apps will impact your screen reader usage on a growing number of sites.


Re: NVDA Features feedback

 

On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 10:56 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
They know how to use most of nvda and other screen reader functions but they prefer the arrows.
-
In which case, they've made an informed choice that suits them.  Chacun à son goût.

It's ignorance of one's options that's almost never good.  But choosing any one of them in full knowledge of what options exist is not up for debate.  Witness your own strong preference for screen review and only screen review.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment.

        ~ Dorothy Nevill

 


Re: Question about an add-on

 

On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 11:01 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
Actually I never switch views. I stick to screen review  everywhere I to. I don’t find myself having a different experience in each when I use arrows. I’m not sure why it is suggested to switch back and forth like this as for me there really is no difference, at all.
-
And that could be because you've trained yourself to "get to everything I want to" using screen review mode.  And there's nothing wrong with that.

But I do think that someone new to NVDA does need to be aware of the modes and play around with each before settling on the one they prefer, or using toggling as Gene suggests.

The only "right way" here is whatever suits you best after you've had a chance to acquaint yourself with the available modes and how they behave.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment.

        ~ Dorothy Nevill

 


Re: Question about an add-on

Sarah k Alawami
 

Actually I never switch views. I stick to screen review  everywhere I to. I don’t find myself having a different experience in each when I use arrows. I’m not sure why it is suggested to switch back and forth like this as for me there really is no difference, at all.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 7:20 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about an add-on

 

No add-on is needed.  If you are using the desktop layout, the command to move from object review to screen review is numpad insert numpad 7.  To return to object navigation, which you should do when you are finished in screen review, the command is numpad insert numpad 1.  Others will provide the laptop command.

 

But in NVDA, when you use either object navigation or screen review, it isn’t the same as the JAWS cursor.  There are certain keys used and you don’t use ordinary movement commands.  If you use such commands such as the arrow keys or control home and end, for example, you will still be moving the application cursor. 

 

Gene

 

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 8:53 AM

Subject: [nvda] Question about an add-on

 

Hi everybody!

This is my very first letter, I am still new to the list, so I greet
everyone very much. I use the two screen readers alternately for now,
but I would like to use NVDA more intensively and efficiently. I have a
question about an add-on: is there an add-on that works with keyboard
shortcuts like switching the jaws and pc cursors, so can I use the
numpad plus and minus keys to switch between cursors? Thank you very
much in advance for your reply and help!

With Best Regards,
Tibor





Re: Question about an add-on

Sarah k Alawami
 

No you cannot. I would consult the quick start and read about object navigation. It is actually a very easy concept to understand if you take the time to learn it. It can mostly give you the layout of a screen and program etc.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tibor Hermann
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 6:53 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Question about an add-on

Hi everybody!

This is my very first letter, I am still new to the list, so I greet everyone very much. I use the two screen readers alternately for now, but I would like to use NVDA more intensively and efficiently. I have a question about an add-on: is there an add-on that works with keyboard shortcuts like switching the jaws and pc cursors, so can I use the numpad plus and minus keys to switch between cursors? Thank you very much in advance for your reply and help!

With Best Regards,
Tibor


locked Re: GMail Basic Setting With NVDA

Sarah k Alawami
 

Yeah j  for next, k for next, * plus a for select all, number  for move to j junk. If you hit the ? you will get a list of keys. Read with all punctuation on so you can get the one I posted. It is actually a very good experience.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 6:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] GMail Basic Setting With NVDA

 

You learned shortcut commands to use your e-mail program.  Do you complain about that?  This is a case where a site is serving as an e-mail platform and, of course, it is to one’s great advantage to learn certain shortcuts.  And the shortcuts may have been intentionally designed to be similar, where possible and practical, to those typically used in e-mail programs.  Perhaps alt r is reply.  That’s very similar to control r. 

 

While I don’t often use e-mail in web interfaces, it is a logical assumption that you would learn the small number of shortcuts such as compose, reply, and a small number of others that you would use regularly.  And if you don’t want to learn a shortcut you don’t use often, you can get to what you want in other ways.  For example, there may be a shortcut to go to the trash folder.  What if I don’t know it?  I can use the screen-reader’s search to search for trash.  But if I use the trash folder often, it would be to my advantage to learn the shortcut. 

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

From: Dzhovani

Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 8:37 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] GMail Basic Setting With NVDA

 

Life is too short to learn every website's preferred way to use their product. If GMail cannot use HTML as intended, I'll pointedly use something else. My limited brain capacity is reserved for stuff where remembering 20 unique key combinations, there effects, and side effects actually matter.


Re: NVDA Features feedback

Sarah k Alawami
 

Agreed. I don’t know all of nvda’s functions but I take the time to play, button mash, google, research, read manuals if I can and when I can. I know of someone who navigates with the arrows. It is slow, slow, slow. They know how to use most of nvda and other screen reader functions but they prefer the arrows.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 1:07 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback

 

Hi Tim,

 

Yes, my own statistic, not backed up by anything scientific, is that blind people only know about 10 percent of their screen reader functions.

 

The amount of people that only use arrows and tab to traverse the web, amazes me. They get there, but it is o so slow.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of tim
Sent: 16 December 2021 15:15
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback

 

That is why screen readers have ways to turn on or off what you want to hear.

The main problem is people don't want to learn there screen reader. They want it handed to them pre customized to fit them.

With new features coming out in html and code programing I want it to say everything.

Then I can turn off what I don't want.

You learn that by reading the manual and help files for what ever screen reader your using.

Do that and will answer at least 99% of the questions asked on lists.

I have ben using screen readers for over 30 years and still don't know everything  in a screen reader. That is only because most of the features I don't need. When I do need them. I read and see if manual has something and if not then I ask on list.

Most of the time the answer is in the manual or help files.

 

On 12/15/2021 5:54 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

I've stayed out of this discussion, but I have to say that in large measure, I agree with Gene. I do not care about figures, lists, block quotes, as well as any other nonfunctional symbols, and I want them gone from my screen reading experience. Reading articles with all that garbage is painful. also email messages. List with one item. List with one item. Why have a list with one item, please? I get that some of these can be useful in some situations. But those of us who have been around the web for longer than a couple of years managed quite well without all this and I for one would like to go back there, and only access something like a list if it is actually worth something, i.e. it really is a list, perhaps one of many on a page that I might wish to navigate among with a quicknav key. But bullets and figures and block quotes, forget it. I'm smart enough to figure stuff out from context. Been doing it for decades and I don't need or want the time consuming verbosity. I want to be able to shut everything off that I don't want and I'd like to find it all in one place if possible in settings. 

On 12/15/2021 2:44 PM, Gene wrote:

You said:

The thing is, Gene, if history is any indicator, the maximum verbosity out of the box is not about "most people," but, as I said, beginners.

 

While that is true in various instances, I don’t think it is true when it comes to web ;pages. 

 

This is something I wouldn’t assume in terms of what a lot of users change.  When I see parts of web pages pasted from even many experienced users, I see all the deffault information unchanged.  Block quotes, list notices, etc.  While many people change these things, I suspect far more than you might suspect don’t. 

 

At present, the NVDA philosophy, I don’t know about other screen-readers appears to be, the more default verbosity the better.  IN the Punctuation/symbol pronunciation settings dialog are all sorts of structures of all sorts of shapes.  They are almost all set to be spoken at the none level so you will hear then no matter what level of punctuation you use.  I’ve seen web pages where a shape symbol doesn’t just occur once but is repeated many times.  And even if once, why hear it if it is only a visual symbol directing the eye to something? 

 

The announcement of figure, out of figure adds nothing to my understanding or comprehension.  Its just more words.  It is not user definable. 

 

I’m not saying these options shouldn’t be available.  But I don’t think we need to hear about every shape symbol on a web page by default. 

 

Since I have bloc quote notification turned off, I don’t know how often I come across them.  I looked them up and here is the relevant part of a Google web snippet":

Block quotes are used for direct quotations that are longer than 40 words. They should be offset from the main text and do not include quotation marks. Introduce the block quote on a new line.

 

In short, I could be reading all sorts of articles and come across block quotes a lot.  If I’m reading something, I generally want to read bloc quotes because they are integral parts of the text.  If someone wants them on for some reason, fine but why by default?  And how many people even know what they are and what they will skip if they skip one?  I doubt most people know, so for most people, its just words.

 

I’d really like to see a survey of users to see what elements they actually use and how many most people don’t. 

 

An interesting example is the one brought up by Sarah.  Does Sarah’s example of clicking on a triangle occur often enough to justify it being on as a default setting?  I’ve seen web pages with various shapes that do nothing functional.  I haven’t seen one with a functional symbol. 

 

Is there a way NVDA could discriminate between functionless shape symbols and functional symbols and be set to announce only functional shape ones?  ``

 

I think these things should be discussed among developers and users. 

 

If the topic doesn’t generate much response, then perhaps a lot of people don’t care. 

 

It can be argued that if someone is a student writing something like a term paper who might want all this verbosity on, How do you make it likely that people who need to know about verbosity settings will know about them?  I’m not sure about the answer but also, is it reasonable to have those who don’t use such structures and who are reading to read hear them?

Gene

Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2021 3:42 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback

 

On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 01:58 PM, Gene wrote:

I do object to the amount of verbosity when in web ;pages.  Why is bloc quote on?  I question how many people want to know information about lists.  There may be other notifications most people don’t care about and I think it would be useful to have a survey about that.

-
The thing is, Gene, if history is any indicator, the maximum verbosity out of the box is not about "most people," but, as I said, beginners.

Block quote, particularly in the contexts where it's in use, can make it much easier to navigate between the various levels of blocks of quoted text, or past them.

And I don't think there is ever going to come a day when "most users" are going to be the consideration for the "out of the box" state of verbosity on any screen reader.  It's maximized because those new to screen readers need to know way more precisely what's happening at the outset than either you or I do, and we should also know how to turn off verbosity we don't want.

Discussion regarding announcements that don't allow choice of any sort is an entirey different subject.  And there will be times where the choice made will not make you happy, and others where it will, and that's for the generic you.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

       ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

 


Re: NVDA Features feedback

Sarah k Alawami
 

Yep. I've had that issue. Write a text file in mac os, open it in windows and all of it is on one line. I wrote something on my note taker in 2002, my dad printed it out and all of it was on one line, well, I mean there were no hard crs to tell when a paragraph had ended etc. that was a disaster. Is there a way to tell the difference between all of these with nvda in case we are caught flat footed?

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Martin J. Dürst
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 12:43 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback

What Brian says below is most of the story about CR and LF, but there's some additional twist. The distinction between CR and LF isn't used on modern systems, but it's still present as a difference between Operating Systems.

Windows usually uses a CR-LF sequence where Unix/Linux uses only LF.
Originally, the Mac used CR only as far as I remember, but switched to LF. Various Internet standards require CR-LF, others are more lenient and work with the various combinations.

Advanced plaintext editors and similar software can handle all conventions, and have functionality to detect, maintain, or change the convention. But some plaintext editors, in particular Notepad on Windows, don't. So if you open a file from Linux in Notepad, it will look as if it doesn't have any line breaks.

Regards, Martin.

On 2021-12-16 06:33, Brian Vogel via groups.io wrote:
On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 02:06 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:


I was taught that return and a new line are not the same thing.
-
That both is, and is not, true based upon the context. I am probably one of "the oldsters" here, just a hair shy of 60, and started in computing when punchcards were still in use as were tractor feed printers.

And most of the differences came into play when talking about a tractor feed printer.

There was the carriage return, usually referred to with CR, which did just that: Move the print head (carriage) back to the left margin of the current line without feeding the paper.

There was the line feed, usually referred to with LF, which did just that: Feed the paper without moving the print head position.

There was the CR-LF combo, what we now think of and get, in practice, if we hit the Enter or Return key (and they are labeled as both, it depends on the keyboard). There is, of course, no paper involved, but conceptually you are returning the carriage to its leftmost position and feeding the virtual paper up by a single line (or however your line spacing is set). In writing systems that read right to left, substitute right for left.

There is really no point in trying to separate out Return or Enter in any modern computing context.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043

*Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its
platform. Now, you simply declare your own truth.*

~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine
Sentiment Took Hold in the United States (
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/23/health/anti-vaccination-movement-us
.html ) , September 23, 2019

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