Date   

Re: update error message

 

Hi,

The bridge is incomplete, I'm afraid. Please decorate the bridge with your current NVDA version, Windows release, and errors from the log if any.

By the way, I advise against using nvda-project.org in favor of nvaccess.org; in reality, nvda-project.org will redirect you to nvaccess.org.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: Can't uninstall NVDA 2021.2 from Windows 10 21h1

 

Hi,

It is a typical text file - one can open the log by pressing NVDA+F1 (although that command is meant for developers, it has also found useful for troubleshooting, too).

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: Can't uninstall NVDA 2021.2 from Windows 10 21h1

 

Well I have had it where I have people that under do, they can't fix whatever so they give it to a friend to help.

That friend does in fact help, they read all the things on the net including all the adds and loads what looks cool.

Here is the thing.

What looks cool usually isn't necessarily cool.

Or they may load all sorts of things to fix 1 issue.

I had both cases.

The first one ended with a reformat because there was to much dammage to fix in a reasonable time.

The next almost did.

I had the thing sitting on a table cleaning junk and reinstalling security software and stuff.

I've had one repeat user and I have had worse than that though not recently.





On 14/01/2022 8:09 am, mike mcglashon wrote:

Brian quoted:

Being on the remote support end of things with a relatively tech-illiterate to tech-phobic client is no picnic!  I can relate.  But sometimes you just have to give them a push to do what you tell them and it works.  They tend to overthink and worry way too much that, "I can't."  Well, in my extensive experience, in almost all cases, "Yes, you can, and with just a bit of guidance and a smidge of trust."

End quote:

 

Believe me, I am one of those tech illiterate guys who just has to trust what the doc says and do it;

As long as he tells me what buttons to push,

I am good;

But, … I still have to push the buttons to make it do what we want  it to do;

 

 

Please advise as you like.

 

Mike M.

 

Mike mcglashon

Email: Michael.mcglashon@...

Ph: 618 783 9331

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 1:59 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can't uninstall NVDA 2021.2 from Windows 10 21h1

 

On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 01:31 PM, George McCoy wrote:

He'll never get through DISM and SFC.

-
If he can copy and paste, he can get through these.  There's nothing that the end user does but issue the commands and wait.

Being on the remote support end of things with a relatively tech-illiterate to tech-phobic client is no picnic!  I can relate.  But sometimes you just have to give them a push to do what you tell them and it works.  They tend to overthink and worry way too much that, "I can't."  Well, in my extensive experience, in almost all cases, "Yes, you can, and with just a bit of guidance and a smidge of trust."
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Re: for people that don't like ribbon in office, new addon: ribbon explorer

 

Hi all,

I wrote about the below thought briefly on add-ons list but I think it would be helpful to share:

Although I personally believe that it is important to work with the native interface, I also think it is important to let people showcase their skills through an add-on like this; who knows, some people would appreciate this add-on. Looking at the source code level (because that's how I review add-ons), it is one of those rare gems that is worthy of preservation simply because it is well documented at the source code level; plus, it gives a good justification for developers and taught me something to think about for parts of my own add-ons. Apart from license (the add-on is licensed under GNU general public license 3 as opposed to NVDA which is licensed under GPL 2), I think the add-on will be well received, similar to SystrayList add-on (particularly for people who were used to other screen readers).

Cheers,

Joseph


update error message

Ame
 

I didn’t know there was any kind of a fix.  Where can you get the installer for the newest NVDA update.  I looked at nvda-project.org which is where I used to get it.  I’ve never had to go back because it always looks for updates.  Is that where you still go?


Re: Can't uninstall NVDA 2021.2 from Windows 10 21h1

George McCoy
 

Thank you very much, Joseph. I will try your suggestions. What is the NVDA log filespec?


George

On 1/13/2022 2:09 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi all,

A few things come to my mind:

  1. User Account Control: usually there is a time limit when it comes to responding to UAC prompt. This happens when you install NVDA, too. If the user does not respond to UAC prompts, Windows will prevent NVDA from being installed and NVDA will report an error to that effect (the actual error is stored in NVDA log). This is a bit complicated if the system is part of a domain and a password is required to respond to UAC prompts. For consumers, responding to UAC is the best solution, but for enterprises, an IT professional should be contacted.
  2. Restarting the computer and transferring NVDA from portable copy to installed copy: this requires that a portable copy of NVDA is stored in an easy to access path (say, documents/NVDA folder). After restarting the computer, run the portable copy of NVDA and see if installation is possible (NVDA menu/Tools/Install). This is the method I personally use when installing NVDA on a new computer.
  3. File in use: sometimes some DLL's used by NVDA is used in other apps, particularly when interacting with 64-bit applications. IN this case, one way to resolve this is logging out and back in, as it then allows apps that are using some NVDA DLL's to terminate. Note that this procedure requires use of Narrator at the login screen, so for convenience, restart the computer.
  4. DISM might help but as a last resort: this assumes that it is more than just NVDA that is stuck.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: update error message

Sarah k Alawami
 

Wasn’t there a fix  for nvda that you had to get manually due to some cert expiring etc? Can you try downloading the installer manually and running it? If this does not make sence, my lunch is talking back at me and it’s wanting me to sleep on the  job today. I hope downloading and running the installer will help.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ame
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 12:31 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] update error message

 

Hi all!

 

Just thought I’d see if there’s a new update so I went to the help menu and clicked check for updates.  I got an error.  All it said was “error checking for update.”  Is this a common thing lately?  Is there anything I can do?  This is the first time I’ve ever encountered this issue in my nearly 12 years using NVDA.   

 

Thanks a bunch.  I’ll appreciate any help you can give me.


update error message

Ame
 

Hi all!

 

Just thought I’d see if there’s a new update so I went to the help menu and clicked check for updates.  I got an error.  All it said was “error checking for update.”  Is this a common thing lately?  Is there anything I can do?  This is the first time I’ve ever encountered this issue in my nearly 12 years using NVDA.   

 

Thanks a bunch.  I’ll appreciate any help you can give me.


Re: Filling PDF Forms

 

On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 02:48 PM, Mohib Anwar Rafay wrote:
Generally it can be done by converting the pdf document into MS Word
doc using ABBYY fine reader, it will not disturb its structure and
entries.
-
Just as an FYI, if you have Office 2013 or newer (I think, it might be 2016 or newer) the step with ABBYY Fine Reader is likely unnecessary.  Word is now capable of opening PDF files and auto converting them to Word format when doing so, and then saving them again as PDFs if you so desire.

There are occasional, and usually tiny, format changes but that's characteristic of any conversion process.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Re: Can't uninstall NVDA 2021.2 from Windows 10 21h1

 

On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 03:09 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
DISM might help but as a last resort: this assumes that it is more than just NVDA that is stuck.
-
While I absolutely agree with the latter, the use of DISM does assume that more than just NVDAmay be stuck, I vehemently disagree with the former.

Neither DISM nor SFC are, or can be, destructive.  I'm not saying anyone has to run them, or even that DISM needs to be run first, but not destructive "system scan and correct" utilities should never be feared nor considered "a last resort" simply because the worst they can do is nothing.  Often they do fix things you may have had no idea were wrong (and which, I'll admit, may not fix the issue that triggered you to run them in the first place).
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Re: Can't uninstall NVDA 2021.2 from Windows 10 21h1

 

On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 02:09 PM, mike mcglashon wrote:
Please advise as you like.
-
What's to advise?  You'll do as you're told or you won't get my help, even when you're paying for it!!

[By the way, for those confused by the above:

1.  I know that "Please advise as you like" is a part of Mike's standard signature.
2.  Mike does precisely what he reports, and does as asked, even if he asks questions, and intelligent ones, before doing so.
3.  We have worked together on a paid professional basis, so he knows that the above is meant as an inside joke.

Now you all know.]
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Re: Can't uninstall NVDA 2021.2 from Windows 10 21h1

 

Hi all,

A few things come to my mind:

  1. User Account Control: usually there is a time limit when it comes to responding to UAC prompt. This happens when you install NVDA, too. If the user does not respond to UAC prompts, Windows will prevent NVDA from being installed and NVDA will report an error to that effect (the actual error is stored in NVDA log). This is a bit complicated if the system is part of a domain and a password is required to respond to UAC prompts. For consumers, responding to UAC is the best solution, but for enterprises, an IT professional should be contacted.
  2. Restarting the computer and transferring NVDA from portable copy to installed copy: this requires that a portable copy of NVDA is stored in an easy to access path (say, documents/NVDA folder). After restarting the computer, run the portable copy of NVDA and see if installation is possible (NVDA menu/Tools/Install). This is the method I personally use when installing NVDA on a new computer.
  3. File in use: sometimes some DLL's used by NVDA is used in other apps, particularly when interacting with 64-bit applications. IN this case, one way to resolve this is logging out and back in, as it then allows apps that are using some NVDA DLL's to terminate. Note that this procedure requires use of Narrator at the login screen, so for convenience, restart the computer.
  4. DISM might help but as a last resort: this assumes that it is more than just NVDA that is stuck.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: Filling PDF Forms

Mohib Anwar Rafay
 

Generally it can be done by converting the pdf document into MS Word
doc using ABBYY fine reader, it will not disturb its structure and
entries. After filling the info, it can again be saved as pdf
document.

On 1/13/22, Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@...> wrote:
No I just heard text. But everyone else and my agent were writing this
in edge and saving it as a pdf etc. I can't show you guys as this was
for a private thign we were doing, and I'm not really aloud to
distribute those, besides this was sometime last year.



------
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Our [discord](http://tiny.cc/d-tffp) is where you will know when we go
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early access episodes plus no adds. If you cannot do that, then leave a
5 star rating on our podcast using your podcast directory's rating
system.

On 12 Jan 2022, at 8:26, Gene wrote:

Before the agent did this, when you moved through the form, was there
any indication that they were fillable or did you just hear text, as
though the intent was to print the document?

Gene

From: Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 10:22 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Filling PDF Forms

I had one such case. The aira agent was able to click into the form
fields and I was able to type into them, all this while using edge
btw, I really don’t know how they did it.



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 7:59 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Filling PDF Forms



If I understand your question, it is how you fill out a PDF document
with no form fields. I would think in such a case, the expectation is
that you would print it and return a paper copy or perhaps fax it.



If you did OCR a PDF file and then fill out answers by inserting text
in the document, I don’t know if that would be accepted or if some
other way would be required. Again, it may be expected that the
document be printed and returned.



I don’t know if a PDF document can have form fields that aren’t
seen by a screen-reader, using an appropriate program that should show
them. If that occurs, then the document isn’t accessible. You
would thhen need sighted assistance or you would need to work
something out with the person or entity that sent you the form.



Gene

-----Original Message-----

I don’t know if there are cases in which a PDF document wouldn’t
show fillable fields if they are present. If that

Gene

-----Original Message-----

From: Bhavya shah

Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 9:31 AM

To: nvda

Subject: [nvda] Filling PDF Forms



Dear all,

One of the tasks I use sighted assistance for but suspect can be done
independently is filling out PDF forms. Properly tagged PDFs which
have editable form fields right in the document, of course, aren't a
problem. Inversely, I understand that scanned, image-based PDF forms
would be a challenge to read let alone fill. However, the kinds of
documents I am referring to right now are generally accessible PDFs
which can either (i) be printed out and physically filled or (ii) be
edited directly and digitally filled. What are methods and software to
edit such PDFs independently using NVDA without accidentally altering
its structure or formatting?

I would truly appreciate your inputs and suggestions on this.

Best Regards,
Bhavya Shah
Stanford University | Class of 2024
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bhavyashah125/












--
Mohib Anwar Rafay

Phone: 9999996464, +919 555 555 765


Re: Can't uninstall NVDA 2021.2 from Windows 10 21h1

mike mcglashon
 

Brian quoted:

Being on the remote support end of things with a relatively tech-illiterate to tech-phobic client is no picnic!  I can relate.  But sometimes you just have to give them a push to do what you tell them and it works.  They tend to overthink and worry way too much that, "I can't."  Well, in my extensive experience, in almost all cases, "Yes, you can, and with just a bit of guidance and a smidge of trust."

End quote:

 

Believe me, I am one of those tech illiterate guys who just has to trust what the doc says and do it;

As long as he tells me what buttons to push,

I am good;

But, … I still have to push the buttons to make it do what we want  it to do;

 

 

Please advise as you like.

 

Mike M.

 

Mike mcglashon

Email: Michael.mcglashon@...

Ph: 618 783 9331

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 1:59 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Can't uninstall NVDA 2021.2 from Windows 10 21h1

 

On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 01:31 PM, George McCoy wrote:

He'll never get through DISM and SFC.

-
If he can copy and paste, he can get through these.  There's nothing that the end user does but issue the commands and wait.

Being on the remote support end of things with a relatively tech-illiterate to tech-phobic client is no picnic!  I can relate.  But sometimes you just have to give them a push to do what you tell them and it works.  They tend to overthink and worry way too much that, "I can't."  Well, in my extensive experience, in almost all cases, "Yes, you can, and with just a bit of guidance and a smidge of trust."
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Re: Can't uninstall NVDA 2021.2 from Windows 10 21h1

 

On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 01:31 PM, George McCoy wrote:
He'll never get through DISM and SFC.
-
If he can copy and paste, he can get through these.  There's nothing that the end user does but issue the commands and wait.

Being on the remote support end of things with a relatively tech-illiterate to tech-phobic client is no picnic!  I can relate.  But sometimes you just have to give them a push to do what you tell them and it works.  They tend to overthink and worry way too much that, "I can't."  Well, in my extensive experience, in almost all cases, "Yes, you can, and with just a bit of guidance and a smidge of trust."
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Re: Can't uninstall NVDA 2021.2 from Windows 10 21h1

George McCoy
 

The trouble is, I'm not onsite so I can't see the error message and the owner is not at all competant when things get sticky.

He'll never get through DISM and SFC. I got a portable copy to work so I might be able to deploy the utilities through that.


Thanks for your help, though.

George


On 1/13/2022 9:42 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
You need to supply error messages.

Failure to install is a completely different thing than failure to upgrade from within.

One thing I always suggest when any "weirdness" is occurring under Windows 8 or later is:  Using DISM (Deployment Imaging Servicing and Management) and SFC (System File Checker) to Repair Windows 8 & 10

If you're still unable to install error messages from Windows would be the next thing an assistant would need to know.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Re: for people that don't like ribbon in office, new addon: ribbon explorer

 

On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 01:07 PM, Gene wrote:
They [split buttons] are used in ribbons but they are used elsewhere as well.
-
Just want to reinforce this point.  Split buttons, while used in ribbons, are also used all over the place and have been around for a very long time.

It's worth reading Gene's tutorial just for the split button part if you feel unfamiliar or uncomfortable with split buttons.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Re: for people that don't like ribbon in office, new addon: ribbon explorer

Gene
 

I explain split buttons as the first thing in my tutorial.  If you don’t understand them, even if you don’t want to learn ribbons or already know them, the first section would help you understand split buttons.  They are used in ribbons but they are used elsewhere as well.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] for people that don't like ribbon in office, new addon: ribbon explorer
 

Hi Gene,

 

Thanks for this. I’ve never really understood split buttons.

 

Janet

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: January 13, 2022 8:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] for people that don't like ribbon in office, new addon: ribbon explorer

 

I strongly object to methods to avoid using ribbons.  If people have problems learning and using ribbons, it is usually because they were not taught to do so properly.  I created a tutorial which teaches ribbons.  It is a short tutorial.  While it may take some time and practice, I don’t think that, with the proper instruction, people in general should find this particularly difficult to learn and use.  I’ll provide the tutorial below my signature.

 

You are cutting yourself off from instructional material as one disadvantage in avoiding ribbons.  Tutorials for blind computer users use standard ribbons in programs where ribbons are used.  Also, on lists like this, when people discuss how to do things, if a ribbon is involved, instructions are given using standard ribbons. 

 

Also, there may be inconveniences in using methods to avoid ribbons.  I’m not assuming that is the case with this add-on but it is a problem you may run into using this or that method to do so.

 

I hope people will try using my tutorial before deciding whether or not they want to avoid the standard ribbon interface.

 

Under mhy signature is my tutorial 

 

Gene

 

I'll provide a brief tutorial based on what I wrote years ago of how to work with ribbons. 

 

I've added a little to it here.

 

I don't know how the organization of Windows has changed in Windows 10 but this description should allow you to look through the Windows ribbons, or any other

 

ribbons, and see how things are organized.  Ribbons are ribbons, just as menus are menus.

 

First, I'll discuss a structure found in later versions of Windows that you need to know about, the split button. 

One thing you will see as you look around ribbons and in other places in Windows are split buttons. A split button often allows you to see more options than just the

 

default action.  Let's take an example. 

Let's say you come across a split button that says shut down Windows.  If you press enter on that button, Windows will shut down.  That is the default action.  Split

 

buttons often show more options if you either right arrow while on the button or down arrow.  As an example, if you are on the shut down split button, you can right

 

arrow and a list of options will open.  the items in the list include sleep, hibernate, restart, and others.  You up or down arrow through the list or use the short

 

cut commands you hear announced as you move through the list.  the letter shortcuts often take actions without pressing enter so be careful when using them, just as

 

you are in menus. 

 

So, let's review.  You find a split button that says shut down.  If you press enter, the computer will shut down. If you right arrow, other options may be displayed.

 

Or if you down arrow, other options may be displayed.  A split button won't work with both methods.  One method, either right arrowing or down arrowing will do so

 

if it can be done with the button.  Try both methods if you don't know which one might work.  If you are on a tool bar which extends across the screen from left to

 

right, down arrowing will open additional options.  If you think about this, it makes sense.  If you are in a menu, down arrowing will move you to the next item in

 

the menu.  So you right arrow on the split button to cause it to display more options.  In a tool bar that extends across the screen from left to right, right

 

arrowing will move you to the next item in the tool bar.  So you down arrow when on the split button to cause it to display more options.  But some tool bars run up

 

and down the screen, as menus do.  And at times, you may not be sure which way a structure extends on screen.  So, as I said, if you are not sure or don't know, try

 

both methods of causing the split button to display more options.  Often, one of them will work. If you open the options a split button offers and don't want to work

 

with them, arrow in the opposite direction to move out of them.  For example, if you right arrowed to open more options, left arrow. 

Some split buttons don't do anything when you right arrow or down arrow.  In that case, open them with alt down arrow.  Then tab through the additional options. 

 

I've almost never worked in this way with split buttons but if you want to close a split button, try alt up arrow if you've used alt down arrow to open it.

 

Now, to ribbons themselves.

 

Regarding ribbons, much of the complaining about them is not warranted if you understand how they work and how to use short cut commands effectively and efficiently.

 

and I would strongly recommend against using the JAWS virtual menus, no matter what the JAWS training material says about ribbons being difficult to use.  the

 

training material is just plain wrong and using virtual menus, you will be unnecessarily dependent on one screen-reader.  There are other disadvantages to using them

 

which I won't go into here.

 

Try looking at ribbons and doing what is described below in wordpad.  Everyone with Windows 7 has Wordpad on their machine.  Wordpad provides a good environment to

 

look at and practice working with ribbons.  

 

The essence of working with ribbons is this:

Press alt to move to the upper ribbon.

You will probably be on an item that says home tab. Items on the upper ribbon are announced as tabs such as home tab, view tab, etc. 

To see what ribbons are available, right or left arrow repeatedly to move through the ribbons.  Move in one

direction to move through all of them, just as you would to move through all the menus.

 

For this demonstration, just so we are all doing the same thing, move with the right arrow. When you get back to where you started, you can keep right arrowing to

 

move through the items again, if you wish.  You can move through all the items as many times as you want. Or you can move with the left arrow whenever you want to

 

move in the opposite direction.  

 

Stop on view.  Then start tabbing.  You will move through all items in what is called the lower ribbon that are in the view ribbon. 

 

In other words you tab to see the items in a ribbon once you move to it.  Tab moves you forward through the items, shift tab moves you backword.

So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow. 

 

Many items in the lower ribbon are buttons.  Use either the space bar or enter to activate the button. You may find a button that opens a menu and if you press enter

 

or the space bar, you will then be in a menu.

 

Each time you move to an item, you will hear the short cut command to work with that item. 

But JAWS has a bug and you often won't.  To hear the short cut, use the command JAWS key tab.  If you are using the default JAWS key, it is either insert.

 

Try tabbing to an item in a Wordpad ribbon and using the command insert tab.  You will hear some extraneous information.  The last thing you will hear is the short

 

cut sequence.  You can repeat the information by repeating the command as often as you want.

 

Let's look at an item which is usually called the application menu.  Return to the main program window in wordpad by closing the ribbons.  You can either press

 

escape repeatedly, if necessary, or you can press alt once.  Now, open the ribbons again with alt. 

Start right arrowing until you get to the application menu.

You will hear application menu and then something like button drop down grid.  Never mind drop down grid.  It's a description you don't have to worry about.  The

 

important things are that you are on a button and at the application menu.  Press enter or the space bar to activate the button.  Activating the button opens the

 

menu.  Start down arrowing. you will hear all the short cut commands necessary to open an item or take an action.  When you got to the menu item, you heard alt f. 

 

When you open the menu and move through it, you will hear all the letters announced.  for example, if you down arrow to save as, you will hear alt f a.  that means

 

that, when you are in the main program window, you open the menu as you always did, alt f, then type a.  Alt f opens the menau and a then opens save as.  Ribbon

 

programs have one menu and you should look through it.  Many important and common commands and interfaces such as options may be there.  By options, I mean the kind

 

of options interface you used to find in the tools menu.

 

Now the we have seen the menu, let's look at the ribbons structure some more.

To review, and add more information, as you have seen, you can move to the ribbon interface with alt.  Then right and left arrow, just as you would move from menu to

 

menu. 

You can also move to a ribbon using alt and a letter.  So, alt h takes you to the home ribbon.  Alt v takes you to the view ribbon, etc.  Once you are on the ribbon

 

you want to work with, tab to move forward through the items in a ribbon.  Shift tab to move back through the items.  So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and

 

down arrow.

Ribbons are divided into categories which you will hear announced as you tab.  for example, in an e-mail program, a ribbon may have a category named respond.  You

 

may hear this announced as respond tool bar.  As you tab, you will hear commands such as reply and forward in the respond category.  When you hear a category

 

announced, don't tab until you hear everything spoken.  You will miss the first command in the category if you do.  I'm talking about working with an unfamiliar

 

ribbon. 

there are often many more commands and items in a ribbon than in a menu.  So memorize command sequences for items you know you will use regularly. 

As I said, there are different categories in ribbons to help organize items.  You can quickly jump from category to category in a ribbon to help you see if there is

 

a category you want to look through. 

Move to a ribbon in Wordpad.  For example, alt h for hhome or alt v for view.

Then repeatedly issue the command control right arrow to move forward from category to category and control left arrow to move back.  When you get to a category you

 

want to hear the items in, start tabbing.  Of course, you can shift tab to move back. 

 

Open a ribbon in Wordpad and tab through it to see how it is organized by moving through it. 

Then use control right arrow to move by category and tab to see what is in a category. 

 

Commands such as control o, control n, control s, control r, etc. are mostly retained in programs

that use ribbons, though you won't hear them announced. If you don't already know them, you'll have to find them in ways such as by looking at a list of keyboard

 

commands for the program.  Such lists are often available in the help for the program. If you already know the commands from having used an older version of the program, most or perhaps even all of the commands you know will work.  


Re: LibreOffice Calc Global Commands Extension add-on

Richard B. McDonald
 

Thanks, Chris!

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris Mullins
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 6:18 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] LibreOffice Calc Global Commands Extension add-on

 

Hi Richard

The “Global Commands Extension” is an NVDA add-on (similar to a Jaws Script), which adds functionality to the screen reader, over and above that provided by the NVDA core.  Add-ons are optional pieces of software providing additional functionality  covring a large variety of applications, so you can choose the add-ons to tailor NVDA to suit your own computing preferences.

 

The “Global Commands Extension” adds a whole host of additional functionality, including audio feedback from clipboard related commands.  Although the clipboard copy command works in terms of grabbing the cell contents from LO, the audio feedback it provides just says “No Selection”.

 

There is another NVDA add-on called “Clipspeak”, which does announce “Copied to clipboard” when used with LO but I think that the audio feedback is triggered by the fact that a clipboard related command has been issued, not it’s outcome.

 

Cheers

                Chris

From: Richard B. McDonald
Sent: 12 January 2022 22:35
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] LibreOffice Calc Global Commands Extension add-on

 

Hi Chris!

 

I replied separately to your other email on the LO accessibility email list.  About your below, what is the “Global Commands Extension?”

 

Thanks,

Richard  

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris Mullins
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 7:02 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] LibreOffice Calc Global Commands Extension add-on

 

Hi

When using LibreOffice Calc and I want to copy cell contents to the clipboard, pressing Control+c causes NVDA to say “No Selection” even though the data is copied successfully.  Is this because Libreoffice Calc accessibility is MSAA based rather than UIA?  Does the Global Commands Extension  add-on require a UIA notification event to trigger  the voicing of “Copy”?

Cheers

                Chris

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

 


Re: for people that don't like ribbon in office, new addon: ribbon explorer

Janet Brandly
 

Hi Gene,

 

Thanks for this. I’ve never really understood split buttons.

 

Janet

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: January 13, 2022 8:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] for people that don't like ribbon in office, new addon: ribbon explorer

 

I strongly object to methods to avoid using ribbons.  If people have problems learning and using ribbons, it is usually because they were not taught to do so properly.  I created a tutorial which teaches ribbons.  It is a short tutorial.  While it may take some time and practice, I don’t think that, with the proper instruction, people in general should find this particularly difficult to learn and use.  I’ll provide the tutorial below my signature.

 

You are cutting yourself off from instructional material as one disadvantage in avoiding ribbons.  Tutorials for blind computer users use standard ribbons in programs where ribbons are used.  Also, on lists like this, when people discuss how to do things, if a ribbon is involved, instructions are given using standard ribbons. 

 

Also, there may be inconveniences in using methods to avoid ribbons.  I’m not assuming that is the case with this add-on but it is a problem you may run into using this or that method to do so.

 

I hope people will try using my tutorial before deciding whether or not they want to avoid the standard ribbon interface.

 

Under mhy signature is my tutorial 

 

Gene

 

I'll provide a brief tutorial based on what I wrote years ago of how to work with ribbons. 

 

I've added a little to it here.

 

I don't know how the organization of Windows has changed in Windows 10 but this description should allow you to look through the Windows ribbons, or any other

 

ribbons, and see how things are organized.  Ribbons are ribbons, just as menus are menus.

 

First, I'll discuss a structure found in later versions of Windows that you need to know about, the split button. 

One thing you will see as you look around ribbons and in other places in Windows are split buttons. A split button often allows you to see more options than just the

 

default action.  Let's take an example. 

Let's say you come across a split button that says shut down Windows.  If you press enter on that button, Windows will shut down.  That is the default action.  Split

 

buttons often show more options if you either right arrow while on the button or down arrow.  As an example, if you are on the shut down split button, you can right

 

arrow and a list of options will open.  the items in the list include sleep, hibernate, restart, and others.  You up or down arrow through the list or use the short

 

cut commands you hear announced as you move through the list.  the letter shortcuts often take actions without pressing enter so be careful when using them, just as

 

you are in menus. 

 

So, let's review.  You find a split button that says shut down.  If you press enter, the computer will shut down. If you right arrow, other options may be displayed.

 

Or if you down arrow, other options may be displayed.  A split button won't work with both methods.  One method, either right arrowing or down arrowing will do so

 

if it can be done with the button.  Try both methods if you don't know which one might work.  If you are on a tool bar which extends across the screen from left to

 

right, down arrowing will open additional options.  If you think about this, it makes sense.  If you are in a menu, down arrowing will move you to the next item in

 

the menu.  So you right arrow on the split button to cause it to display more options.  In a tool bar that extends across the screen from left to right, right

 

arrowing will move you to the next item in the tool bar.  So you down arrow when on the split button to cause it to display more options.  But some tool bars run up

 

and down the screen, as menus do.  And at times, you may not be sure which way a structure extends on screen.  So, as I said, if you are not sure or don't know, try

 

both methods of causing the split button to display more options.  Often, one of them will work. If you open the options a split button offers and don't want to work

 

with them, arrow in the opposite direction to move out of them.  For example, if you right arrowed to open more options, left arrow. 

Some split buttons don't do anything when you right arrow or down arrow.  In that case, open them with alt down arrow.  Then tab through the additional options. 

 

I've almost never worked in this way with split buttons but if you want to close a split button, try alt up arrow if you've used alt down arrow to open it.

 

Now, to ribbons themselves.

 

Regarding ribbons, much of the complaining about them is not warranted if you understand how they work and how to use short cut commands effectively and efficiently.

 

and I would strongly recommend against using the JAWS virtual menus, no matter what the JAWS training material says about ribbons being difficult to use.  the

 

training material is just plain wrong and using virtual menus, you will be unnecessarily dependent on one screen-reader.  There are other disadvantages to using them

 

which I won't go into here.

 

Try looking at ribbons and doing what is described below in wordpad.  Everyone with Windows 7 has Wordpad on their machine.  Wordpad provides a good environment to

 

look at and practice working with ribbons.  

 

The essence of working with ribbons is this:

Press alt to move to the upper ribbon.

You will probably be on an item that says home tab. Items on the upper ribbon are announced as tabs such as home tab, view tab, etc. 

To see what ribbons are available, right or left arrow repeatedly to move through the ribbons.  Move in one

direction to move through all of them, just as you would to move through all the menus.

 

For this demonstration, just so we are all doing the same thing, move with the right arrow. When you get back to where you started, you can keep right arrowing to

 

move through the items again, if you wish.  You can move through all the items as many times as you want. Or you can move with the left arrow whenever you want to

 

move in the opposite direction.  

 

Stop on view.  Then start tabbing.  You will move through all items in what is called the lower ribbon that are in the view ribbon. 

 

In other words you tab to see the items in a ribbon once you move to it.  Tab moves you forward through the items, shift tab moves you backword.

So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow. 

 

Many items in the lower ribbon are buttons.  Use either the space bar or enter to activate the button. You may find a button that opens a menu and if you press enter

 

or the space bar, you will then be in a menu.

 

Each time you move to an item, you will hear the short cut command to work with that item. 

But JAWS has a bug and you often won't.  To hear the short cut, use the command JAWS key tab.  If you are using the default JAWS key, it is either insert.

 

Try tabbing to an item in a Wordpad ribbon and using the command insert tab.  You will hear some extraneous information.  The last thing you will hear is the short

 

cut sequence.  You can repeat the information by repeating the command as often as you want.

 

Let's look at an item which is usually called the application menu.  Return to the main program window in wordpad by closing the ribbons.  You can either press

 

escape repeatedly, if necessary, or you can press alt once.  Now, open the ribbons again with alt. 

Start right arrowing until you get to the application menu.

You will hear application menu and then something like button drop down grid.  Never mind drop down grid.  It's a description you don't have to worry about.  The

 

important things are that you are on a button and at the application menu.  Press enter or the space bar to activate the button.  Activating the button opens the

 

menu.  Start down arrowing. you will hear all the short cut commands necessary to open an item or take an action.  When you got to the menu item, you heard alt f. 

 

When you open the menu and move through it, you will hear all the letters announced.  for example, if you down arrow to save as, you will hear alt f a.  that means

 

that, when you are in the main program window, you open the menu as you always did, alt f, then type a.  Alt f opens the menau and a then opens save as.  Ribbon

 

programs have one menu and you should look through it.  Many important and common commands and interfaces such as options may be there.  By options, I mean the kind

 

of options interface you used to find in the tools menu.

 

Now the we have seen the menu, let's look at the ribbons structure some more.

To review, and add more information, as you have seen, you can move to the ribbon interface with alt.  Then right and left arrow, just as you would move from menu to

 

menu. 

You can also move to a ribbon using alt and a letter.  So, alt h takes you to the home ribbon.  Alt v takes you to the view ribbon, etc.  Once you are on the ribbon

 

you want to work with, tab to move forward through the items in a ribbon.  Shift tab to move back through the items.  So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and

 

down arrow.

Ribbons are divided into categories which you will hear announced as you tab.  for example, in an e-mail program, a ribbon may have a category named respond.  You

 

may hear this announced as respond tool bar.  As you tab, you will hear commands such as reply and forward in the respond category.  When you hear a category

 

announced, don't tab until you hear everything spoken.  You will miss the first command in the category if you do.  I'm talking about working with an unfamiliar

 

ribbon. 

there are often many more commands and items in a ribbon than in a menu.  So memorize command sequences for items you know you will use regularly. 

As I said, there are different categories in ribbons to help organize items.  You can quickly jump from category to category in a ribbon to help you see if there is

 

a category you want to look through. 

Move to a ribbon in Wordpad.  For example, alt h for hhome or alt v for view.

Then repeatedly issue the command control right arrow to move forward from category to category and control left arrow to move back.  When you get to a category you

 

want to hear the items in, start tabbing.  Of course, you can shift tab to move back. 

 

Open a ribbon in Wordpad and tab through it to see how it is organized by moving through it. 

Then use control right arrow to move by category and tab to see what is in a category. 

 

Commands such as control o, control n, control s, control r, etc. are mostly retained in programs

that use ribbons, though you won't hear them announced. If you don't already know them, you'll have to find them in ways such as by looking at a list of keyboard

 

commands for the program.  Such lists are often available in the help for the program. If you already know the commands from having used an older version of the program, most or perhaps even all of the commands you know will work.  

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