Date   

Apology to list members

Don H
 

I want to apologize to the list for breaking the list rules. My continuing recovery from Covid has messed up my judgement.


Re: NVDA announcing shortcut keys

 

On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 06:44 PM, Don H wrote:
Last time I told Brian v not to do something he read me the riot act to
Never Never tell him what to do.
-
You really don't seem to understand that questioning moderation decisions in public is just not done.

For any other member who believes that the above is appropriate, I suggest you read Nimer Jaber's Administrative Notice entitled, List Updates: Please Read  (Sent April 11, 2020).  It explicitly states the following:

  • This list is not a democracy.
    • A list member took liberties with questioning a moderator on a topic in public, and questioning why topics are locked. Let me be quite clear: It is not acceptable to question a moderator on list in respect of a thread being locked, or any other reason [related to group administration]. If a thread is locked, this is not out of a desire to infringe on your rights... As participants on this list, you are bound by the Groups.io terms of service. Furthermore, you are bound by any rules that I, the list owner, along with Brian, the list moderator, and NVAccess decide to impose. Even if the rule is something you disagree with. If you disagree with it, or you cannot abide by it, please unsubscribe. This isn't to say that policies we enact will be unreasonable, however it is your choice whether you are able to follow the rules imposed by an entity when you use a service or product that entity provides.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Re: NVDA announcing shortcut keys

Gtt North Bay
 

Sorry but I think you have the wrong Brian B.

Thanks,
Brian B.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Don H
Sent: January 16, 2022 6:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA announcing shortcut keys

Last time I told Brian v not to do something he read me the riot act to Never Never tell him what to do.

On 1/16/2022 5:03 PM, Gtt North Bay wrote:
Brian and Gene, can we kill this topic or take it off list.

To much back and forth.

Thanks,

Brian B.

*From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *Gene
*Sent:* January 16, 2022 5:15 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA announcing shortcut keys

I didn't say what I said to say that one screen-reader is better. I'm
saying that Window-eyes, in this respect, is superior because settings
aren't automatically saved. But beyond that, I'm not making any
general statements in my message.

Gene

On 1/16/2022 3:48 PM, Arlene wrote:

Hi there: I can’t argue here. I used Jaws since I got a computer. I
did try a demo of window eyes. I found it too bulkie. I ran home to
JFW because I didn’t know window eyes. In my neck of the woods in
Canada British Columbia. There wasn’t a vender I knew of that
supported it. They were big on JFW. Later I did find a vender that
did support Window eyes. I don’t know if they exist. They were based
out of Victoria. Now, for me to get JFW, I have to go to another
Vender for JFW. Our local venders do not support it. There’s one
in Langley and another in Vancouver. They support system Access.
This is why I use NVDA. I can get it online. Not have to go to a
vender to get it! I have both it and Jaws on my system. Some things
I’ll use NVDA. Some I’ll use Jaws. Don’t worry I wont use them at
the same time. Lol

Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
Windows

*From: *Gene <mailto:gsasner@...>
*Sent: *January 16, 2022 11:51 AM
*To: *nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject: *Re: [nvda] NVDA announcing shortcut keys

I'll point out, though arguing from authority doesn't prove a thing
is right, that still, one of the most respected instructors in the
field expressed the opinion that Window-eyes was better than JAWS in
this respect because users were more free to experiment.

People may differ with me all they like, but why is the current
default better than my proposal?

Gene

On 1/16/2022 1:42 PM, Gene wrote:

I can state an opinion about what should be the case without
always qualifying it by saying something like others may
disagree, etc. This sort of thing is done constantly. See
editorial pages and opinion columns for innumerable examples.
When I write in such a way, I assume that it is generally
understood that I am expressing an opinion.

This is not a question of taste, usual or not. It isn't a
question of I like chocolate ice cream. It is a question of
which better serves users.

Aside from that, Openbook does not automatically save settings.
Window-eyes didn't. I don't think Kurzweil does. These
designers may have had good reasons for what they did.

In the case of Window-eyes, the reason was so that users could
experiment with settings, then not accidentally have them be
saved. I suspect that also, in the cases of all three of these
programs, this was done so users could change settings, then
change them back if the changes were intended to be temporary
such as temporarily changing a contrast setting. It was
evidently intended that these settings would not be accidentally
saved on exit.

Gene

On 1/16/2022 12:53 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 01:04 PM, Gene wrote:

This should not be the default behavior.

-
Again, Gene, this is your opinion. It is not mine.

In almost all programs, including NVDA, when people change
settings they want those changes "to stick" and actually
expect it unless they deliberately arrange it otherwise.
This has been a convention for decades, and across types of
software.

You know how to turn this off. If you don't like that
default, then do that. Your tastes, which are sometimes
unusual, don't hold sway. All the time you state,
unequivocally, that they should. Sorry, but, no.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

/*The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit
group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it
becomes inessential what these ideals are.*/

/* ~ */Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

.


Re: NVDA announcing shortcut keys

Don H
 

Last time I told Brian v not to do something he read me the riot act to
Never Never tell him what to do.

On 1/16/2022 5:03 PM, Gtt North Bay wrote:
Brian and Gene, can we kill this topic or take it off list.

To much back and forth.

Thanks,

Brian B.

*From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *Gene
*Sent:* January 16, 2022 5:15 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA announcing shortcut keys

I didn't say what I said to say that one screen-reader is better.  I'm
saying that Window-eyes, in this respect, is superior because settings
aren't automatically saved.  But beyond that, I'm not making any general
statements in my message.

Gene

On 1/16/2022 3:48 PM, Arlene wrote:

Hi there: I can’t argue here. I used Jaws since I got a computer. I
did try a demo of window eyes. I found it too bulkie. I ran home to
JFW because I didn’t know window eyes.  In my neck of the woods in
Canada British Columbia.  There wasn’t a vender I knew of that
supported it. They were big on JFW. Later I did find a vender that
did support Window eyes. I don’t know if they exist. They were based
out of Victoria.  Now, for me to get JFW, I have to go to another
Vender for JFW.  Our local venders do not support it.  There’s one
in Langley and another in Vancouver.  They support system Access.
This is why I use NVDA. I can get it online. Not have to go to a
vender to get it! I have both it and Jaws on my system. Some things
I’ll use NVDA. Some I’ll use Jaws. Don’t worry I wont use them at
the same time. Lol

Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
Windows

*From: *Gene <mailto:gsasner@...>
*Sent: *January 16, 2022 11:51 AM
*To: *nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject: *Re: [nvda] NVDA announcing shortcut keys

I'll point out, though arguing from authority doesn't prove a thing
is right, that still, one of the most respected instructors in the
field expressed the opinion that Window-eyes was better than JAWS in
this respect because users were more free to experiment.

People may differ with me all they like, but why is the current
default better than my proposal?

Gene

On 1/16/2022 1:42 PM, Gene wrote:

I can state an opinion about what should be the case without
always qualifying it by saying something like others may
disagree, etc.  This sort of thing is done constantly.  See
editorial pages and opinion columns for innumerable examples.
When I write in such a way, I assume that it is generally
understood that I am expressing an opinion.

This is not a question of taste, usual or not.  It isn't a
question of I like chocolate ice cream.  It is a question of
which better serves users.

Aside from that, Openbook does not automatically save settings.
Window-eyes didn't.  I don't think Kurzweil does. These
designers may have had good reasons for what they did.

In the case of Window-eyes, the reason was so that users could
experiment with settings, then not accidentally have them be
saved.  I suspect that also, in the cases of all three of these
programs, this was done so users could change settings, then
change them back if the changes were intended to be temporary
such as temporarily changing a contrast setting.  It was
evidently intended that these settings would not be accidentally
saved on exit.

Gene

On 1/16/2022 12:53 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 01:04 PM, Gene wrote:

This should not be the default behavior.

-
Again, Gene, this is your opinion.  It is not mine.

In almost all programs, including NVDA, when people change
settings they want those changes "to stick" and actually
expect it unless they deliberately arrange it otherwise.
This has been a convention for decades, and across types of
software.

You know how to turn this off.  If you don't like that
default, then do that.  Your tastes, which are sometimes
unusual, don't hold sway.  All the time you state,
unequivocally, that they should.  Sorry, but, no.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

/*The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit
group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it
becomes inessential what these ideals are.*/

/*       ~ */Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

.


Re: NVDA announcing shortcut keys

 

On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 06:03 PM, Gtt North Bay wrote:

Brian and Gene, can we kill this topic or take it off list.

To much back and forth.

-
So, you're the moderator now.  I don't think so.

Well, I am, and the following is being stated in that role, so don't argue with me about it:  Use the Mute this Topic function that Groups.io supplies for you for any topic you do not wish to see.  Period, end of sentence.

It is up to the Group Owner or Moderator to decide whether there has been "Too much back and forth."  If I member believes this, and feels it warrants reporting, then a message to the Group Owner address is the appropriate method for doing so.  The Group Owner may or may not agree, so reporting it will not necessarily result in something being stopped.

But, in general, it is up to the individual member to mute topics they've become bored with.  The amount of back and forth can and will vary in topics over time, and what's "too much" to you may be "not yet enough" for someone else.

Use the tools this service provides you, don't demand that an active topic, that is on-topic with regard to how NVDA works, and arguments about same, are not to your personal liking.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Re: NVDA announcing shortcut keys

Gtt North Bay
 

Brian and Gene, can we kill this topic or take it off list.

To much back and forth.

 

Thanks,

Brian B.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: January 16, 2022 5:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA announcing shortcut keys

 

I didn't say what I said to say that one screen-reader is better.  I'm saying that Window-eyes, in this respect, is superior because settings aren't automatically saved.  But beyond that, I'm not making any general statements in my message.

 

Gene

On 1/16/2022 3:48 PM, Arlene wrote:

Hi there: I can’t argue here. I used Jaws since I got a computer. I did try a demo of window eyes. I found it too bulkie. I ran home to JFW because I didn’t know window eyes.  In my neck of the woods in Canada British Columbia.  There wasn’t a vender I knew of that supported it. They were big on JFW. Later I did find a vender that did support Window eyes. I don’t know if they exist. They were based out of Victoria.  Now, for me to get JFW, I have to go to another Vender for JFW.  Our local venders do not support it.  There’s one in Langley and another in Vancouver.  They support system Access. This is why I use NVDA. I can get it online. Not have to go to a vender to get it! I have both it and Jaws on my system. Some things I’ll use NVDA. Some I’ll use Jaws. Don’t worry I wont use them at the same time. Lol   

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Gene
Sent: January 16, 2022 11:51 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA announcing shortcut keys

 

I'll point out, though arguing from authority doesn't prove a thing is right, that still, one of the most respected instructors in the field expressed the opinion that Window-eyes was better than JAWS in this respect because users were more free to experiment.

 

People may differ with me all they like, but why is the current default better than my proposal?

 

Gene

On 1/16/2022 1:42 PM, Gene wrote:

I can state an opinion about what should be the case without always qualifying it by saying something like others may disagree, etc.  This sort of thing is done constantly.  See editorial pages and opinion columns for innumerable examples.  When I write in such a way, I assume that it is generally understood that I am expressing an opinion.

 

This is not a question of taste, usual or not.  It isn't a question of I like chocolate ice cream.  It is a question of which better serves users. 

 

Aside from that, Openbook does not automatically save settings.  Window-eyes didn't.  I don't think Kurzweil does. These designers may have had good reasons for what they did. 

 

In the case of Window-eyes, the reason was so that users could experiment with settings, then not accidentally have them be saved.  I suspect that also, in the cases of all three of these programs, this was done so users could change settings, then change them back if the changes were intended to be temporary such as temporarily changing a contrast setting.  It was evidently intended that these settings would not be accidentally saved on exit.

 

Gene

On 1/16/2022 12:53 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 01:04 PM, Gene wrote:

This should not be the default behavior.

-
Again, Gene, this is your opinion.  It is not mine.

In almost all programs, including NVDA, when people change settings they want those changes "to stick" and actually expect it unless they deliberately arrange it otherwise.  This has been a convention for decades, and across types of software.

You know how to turn this off.  If you don't like that default, then do that.  Your tastes, which are sometimes unusual, don't hold sway.  All the time you state, unequivocally, that they should.  Sorry, but, no.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 

 

.


Re: NVDA announcing shortcut keys

Gene
 

I didn't say what I said to say that one screen-reader is better.  I'm saying that Window-eyes, in this respect, is superior because settings aren't automatically saved.  But beyond that, I'm not making any general statements in my message.


Gene

On 1/16/2022 3:48 PM, Arlene wrote:

Hi there: I can’t argue here. I used Jaws since I got a computer. I did try a demo of window eyes. I found it too bulkie. I ran home to JFW because I didn’t know window eyes.  In my neck of the woods in Canada British Columbia.  There wasn’t a vender I knew of that supported it. They were big on JFW. Later I did find a vender that did support Window eyes. I don’t know if they exist. They were based out of Victoria.  Now, for me to get JFW, I have to go to another Vender for JFW.  Our local venders do not support it.  There’s one in Langley and another in Vancouver.  They support system Access. This is why I use NVDA. I can get it online. Not have to go to a vender to get it! I have both it and Jaws on my system. Some things I’ll use NVDA. Some I’ll use Jaws. Don’t worry I wont use them at the same time. Lol   

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Gene
Sent: January 16, 2022 11:51 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA announcing shortcut keys

 

I'll point out, though arguing from authority doesn't prove a thing is right, that still, one of the most respected instructors in the field expressed the opinion that Window-eyes was better than JAWS in this respect because users were more free to experiment.

 

People may differ with me all they like, but why is the current default better than my proposal?

 

Gene

On 1/16/2022 1:42 PM, Gene wrote:

I can state an opinion about what should be the case without always qualifying it by saying something like others may disagree, etc.  This sort of thing is done constantly.  See editorial pages and opinion columns for innumerable examples.  When I write in such a way, I assume that it is generally understood that I am expressing an opinion.

 

This is not a question of taste, usual or not.  It isn't a question of I like chocolate ice cream.  It is a question of which better serves users. 

 

Aside from that, Openbook does not automatically save settings.  Window-eyes didn't.  I don't think Kurzweil does. These designers may have had good reasons for what they did. 

 

In the case of Window-eyes, the reason was so that users could experiment with settings, then not accidentally have them be saved.  I suspect that also, in the cases of all three of these programs, this was done so users could change settings, then change them back if the changes were intended to be temporary such as temporarily changing a contrast setting.  It was evidently intended that these settings would not be accidentally saved on exit.

 

Gene

On 1/16/2022 12:53 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 01:04 PM, Gene wrote:

This should not be the default behavior.

-
Again, Gene, this is your opinion.  It is not mine.

In almost all programs, including NVDA, when people change settings they want those changes "to stick" and actually expect it unless they deliberately arrange it otherwise.  This has been a convention for decades, and across types of software.

You know how to turn this off.  If you don't like that default, then do that.  Your tastes, which are sometimes unusual, don't hold sway.  All the time you state, unequivocally, that they should.  Sorry, but, no.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 

 

.


Re: NVDA announcing shortcut keys

Gene
 

Yes, what you say is correct about programs in general but a screen-reader is somewhat different than typical programs.  In a screen-reader, people often want to change settings temporarily and not have them accidentally  saved permanently.  You may want to change the speech rate, perhaps you are reading something you want to concentrate on more and slow the screen-reader, perhaps you want to change punctuation temporarily, or change what is or isn't spoken on a certain web page.  Perhaps you want to change the voice.  I imagine people would tend to change one setting usually but I also suspect there are times when people might want to change two or three, but you don't want any of these changes to be permanent.  If your computer spontaneously reboots, the changed settings will be permanently saved.  While this doesn't happen often, it does happen.  Because you may have set them a long time ago, you may not recall the numerical values of the settings and you may find it annoying to reset them.  You may be doing something after making one or more changes and decide to switch screen-readers.  Without thinking about reverting before shutdown, you close NVDA.  The old settings have been lost and the new ones saved. 


And in the case of those learning NVDA I believe it gives students more confidence in

experimenting with NVDA settings if they know they won't accidentally be saved.  They can change as many settings as they want and none of them will be permanently saved, unless intentionally.


I believe that programs like Openbook and Kurzweil are in this category of program as well. 


Gene

On 1/16/2022 3:30 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 02:51 PM, Gene wrote:
People may differ with me all they like, but why is the current default better than my proposal?
-
Gene,

I suggest you look at how the Settings under Windows 10 & 11, Microsoft Office, most web browsers, and the list goes on and on these days work.  The era of having to hit even so much as a Save key to finalize your choices has, quite often, disappeared.  Even a Cancel button has become rarer.  The settings take effect, immediately, and stay as you set them until or unless you set them back.  It has become the most common convention.

That matters.  People come to expect this sort of behavior ecosystem wide as it has come to predominate.

It's not even a matter of personal preference, really, so much as a matter of establishing a consistent convention and sticking with it.  There are programs, and they are relatively few and NVDA is one of them, that allow you to actually control when/if settings changes are saved.  It gives you the control if you want to set an exception to what has become common convention.

But in all cases, whether I necessarily like what the common convention is, personally, I recognize the value in following it.  Knowing what to expect, in most cases, has a great value even if I so happen to hate whatever that thing is.  At least I know and I know that if it's possible for me to change it then it is up to me to make that change.  It makes it a conscious deviation from the common convention.

NVDA is adhering to modern conventions, and should continue to do so.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Re: Microsoft Edge Suddenly Less Accessible with NVDA

Arlene
 

Same here, I’m using the latest version of NVDA, JFW 2021 on this windows ten computer!

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Mário Navarro
Sent: January 16, 2022 3:03 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Microsoft Edge Suddenly Less Accessible with NVDA

 

 

hi.

 

 

Yes, this happens to me too.

With jaws, this issue stops being real.

Cheers.

 

Às 17:12 de 15/01/2022, Rich DeSteno escreveu:

> I have been using the current version of NVDA with the current version

> of Microsoft Edge on both Windows 10 and 11 with great success until

> recently.  Within the last few days, NVDA will no longer read the

> search term that I type in the search edit field. Also, when I press

> the Space Bar on a compressed listing of what other people ask, the

> contents open in a new window, so I must alt-tab to the other window

> to read the contents.  I assume these changes are either related to

> changes in Edge or NVDA.  Is anyone else aware of this or whether

> these problems will be corrected, or should I just give up and switch

> to Google Chrome?

--

A acção pode nem sempre ser felicidade, mas não há felicidade sem acção...

 

 

 

 

 

 


Re: NVDA announcing shortcut keys

Arlene
 

Hi there: I can’t argue here. I used Jaws since I got a computer. I did try a demo of window eyes. I found it too bulkie. I ran home to JFW because I didn’t know window eyes.  In my neck of the woods in Canada British Columbia.  There wasn’t a vender I knew of that supported it. They were big on JFW. Later I did find a vender that did support Window eyes. I don’t know if they exist. They were based out of Victoria.  Now, for me to get JFW, I have to go to another Vender for JFW.  Our local venders do not support it.  There’s one in Langley and another in Vancouver.  They support system Access. This is why I use NVDA. I can get it online. Not have to go to a vender to get it! I have both it and Jaws on my system. Some things I’ll use NVDA. Some I’ll use Jaws. Don’t worry I wont use them at the same time. Lol   

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Gene
Sent: January 16, 2022 11:51 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA announcing shortcut keys

 

I'll point out, though arguing from authority doesn't prove a thing is right, that still, one of the most respected instructors in the field expressed the opinion that Window-eyes was better than JAWS in this respect because users were more free to experiment.

 

People may differ with me all they like, but why is the current default better than my proposal?

 

Gene

On 1/16/2022 1:42 PM, Gene wrote:

I can state an opinion about what should be the case without always qualifying it by saying something like others may disagree, etc.  This sort of thing is done constantly.  See editorial pages and opinion columns for innumerable examples.  When I write in such a way, I assume that it is generally understood that I am expressing an opinion.

 

This is not a question of taste, usual or not.  It isn't a question of I like chocolate ice cream.  It is a question of which better serves users. 

 

Aside from that, Openbook does not automatically save settings.  Window-eyes didn't.  I don't think Kurzweil does. These designers may have had good reasons for what they did. 

 

In the case of Window-eyes, the reason was so that users could experiment with settings, then not accidentally have them be saved.  I suspect that also, in the cases of all three of these programs, this was done so users could change settings, then change them back if the changes were intended to be temporary such as temporarily changing a contrast setting.  It was evidently intended that these settings would not be accidentally saved on exit.

 

Gene

On 1/16/2022 12:53 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 01:04 PM, Gene wrote:

This should not be the default behavior.

-
Again, Gene, this is your opinion.  It is not mine.

In almost all programs, including NVDA, when people change settings they want those changes "to stick" and actually expect it unless they deliberately arrange it otherwise.  This has been a convention for decades, and across types of software.

You know how to turn this off.  If you don't like that default, then do that.  Your tastes, which are sometimes unusual, don't hold sway.  All the time you state, unequivocally, that they should.  Sorry, but, no.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 

 


Re: NVDA announcing shortcut keys

 

On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 02:51 PM, Gene wrote:
People may differ with me all they like, but why is the current default better than my proposal?
-
Gene,

I suggest you look at how the Settings under Windows 10 & 11, Microsoft Office, most web browsers, and the list goes on and on these days work.  The era of having to hit even so much as a Save key to finalize your choices has, quite often, disappeared.  Even a Cancel button has become rarer.  The settings take effect, immediately, and stay as you set them until or unless you set them back.  It has become the most common convention.

That matters.  People come to expect this sort of behavior ecosystem wide as it has come to predominate.

It's not even a matter of personal preference, really, so much as a matter of establishing a consistent convention and sticking with it.  There are programs, and they are relatively few and NVDA is one of them, that allow you to actually control when/if settings changes are saved.  It gives you the control if you want to set an exception to what has become common convention.

But in all cases, whether I necessarily like what the common convention is, personally, I recognize the value in following it.  Knowing what to expect, in most cases, has a great value even if I so happen to hate whatever that thing is.  At least I know and I know that if it's possible for me to change it then it is up to me to make that change.  It makes it a conscious deviation from the common convention.

NVDA is adhering to modern conventions, and should continue to do so.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Re: Microsoft Edge Suddenly Less Accessible with NVDA

tim
 

Try going through the settings and make sure they are what you want.

Because they have made updates to edge.

On 1/15/2022 12:12 PM, Rich DeSteno wrote:
I have been using the current version of NVDA with the current version of Microsoft Edge on both Windows 10 and 11 with great success until recently.  Within the last few days, NVDA will no longer read the search term that I type in the search edit field. Also, when I press the Space Bar on a compressed listing of what other people ask, the contents open in a new window, so I must alt-tab to the other window to read the contents.  I assume these changes are either related to changes in Edge or NVDA.  Is anyone else aware of this or whether these problems will be corrected, or should I just give up and switch to Google Chrome?


Re: NVDA announcing shortcut keys

Gene
 

I didn't say I am always right.  But when I express an opinion, if I think it is right, I will state it and stand by it unless I am convinced by opinions and/or facts that it is wrong. 


Gene

On 1/16/2022 1:49 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 02:42 PM, Gene wrote:

It is a question of which better serves users. 

 

-

And, Gene, your beliefs about this are not, contrary to your own opinion, always right.  Therein lies the problem, even though your don't see it as one.

And no, you need not qualify everything with, "It's my opinion that . .  ."   And I don't have to qualify my opinion, "You're wrong," either.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Re: NVDA announcing shortcut keys

Gene
 

I'll point out, though arguing from authority doesn't prove a thing is right, that still, one of the most respected instructors in the field expressed the opinion that Window-eyes was better than JAWS in this respect because users were more free to experiment.


People may differ with me all they like, but why is the current default better than my proposal?


Gene

On 1/16/2022 1:42 PM, Gene wrote:

I can state an opinion about what should be the case without always qualifying it by saying something like others may disagree, etc.  This sort of thing is done constantly.  See editorial pages and opinion columns for innumerable examples.  When I write in such a way, I assume that it is generally understood that I am expressing an opinion.


This is not a question of taste, usual or not.  It isn't a question of I like chocolate ice cream.  It is a question of which better serves users. 


Aside from that, Openbook does not automatically save settings.  Window-eyes didn't.  I don't think Kurzweil does. These designers may have had good reasons for what they did. 


In the case of Window-eyes, the reason was so that users could experiment with settings, then not accidentally have them be saved.  I suspect that also, in the cases of all three of these programs, this was done so users could change settings, then change them back if the changes were intended to be temporary such as temporarily changing a contrast setting.  It was evidently intended that these settings would not be accidentally saved on exit.


Gene
On 1/16/2022 12:53 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 01:04 PM, Gene wrote:
This should not be the default behavior.
-
Again, Gene, this is your opinion.  It is not mine.

In almost all programs, including NVDA, when people change settings they want those changes "to stick" and actually expect it unless they deliberately arrange it otherwise.  This has been a convention for decades, and across types of software.

You know how to turn this off.  If you don't like that default, then do that.  Your tastes, which are sometimes unusual, don't hold sway.  All the time you state, unequivocally, that they should.  Sorry, but, no.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Re: NVDA announcing shortcut keys

 

On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 02:42 PM, Gene wrote:

It is a question of which better serves users. 

 

-

And, Gene, your beliefs about this are not, contrary to your own opinion, always right.  Therein lies the problem, even though your don't see it as one.

And no, you need not qualify everything with, "It's my opinion that . .  ."   And I don't have to qualify my opinion, "You're wrong," either.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Re: NVDA announcing shortcut keys

Gene
 

I can state an opinion about what should be the case without always qualifying it by saying something like others may disagree, etc.  This sort of thing is done constantly.  See editorial pages and opinion columns for innumerable examples.  When I write in such a way, I assume that it is generally understood that I am expressing an opinion.


This is not a question of taste, usual or not.  It isn't a question of I like chocolate ice cream.  It is a question of which better serves users. 


Aside from that, Openbook does not automatically save settings.  Window-eyes didn't.  I don't think Kurzweil does. These designers may have had good reasons for what they did. 


In the case of Window-eyes, the reason was so that users could experiment with settings, then not accidentally have them be saved.  I suspect that also, in the cases of all three of these programs, this was done so users could change settings, then change them back if the changes were intended to be temporary such as temporarily changing a contrast setting.  It was evidently intended that these settings would not be accidentally saved on exit.


Gene

On 1/16/2022 12:53 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 01:04 PM, Gene wrote:
This should not be the default behavior.
-
Again, Gene, this is your opinion.  It is not mine.

In almost all programs, including NVDA, when people change settings they want those changes "to stick" and actually expect it unless they deliberately arrange it otherwise.  This has been a convention for decades, and across types of software.

You know how to turn this off.  If you don't like that default, then do that.  Your tastes, which are sometimes unusual, don't hold sway.  All the time you state, unequivocally, that they should.  Sorry, but, no.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Re: Sleep mode question

 

Hi,

A better way might be to say that:

Sleep mode is application instance specific, or, in technical terms, process specific. There are programs that use one instance to display multiple windows, and there are programs that tie windows to instances of themselves. The former is the case with Edge, and the latter is the case with Notepad.

NVDA's own user guide states that sleep mode is active for the current application, which also is incomplete based on the logic used here. I would imagine it was stated like this with the assumption that one app meant one window and to simplify the concept of "processes" for users. Perhaps I didn't use an easy to understand terms in my previous message...

Speaking of processes, an overview for users: a process is an instance of a program (or an application) coming to life i.e. being run by a computer user. A process consists of an identifier commonly known as a process ID (PID for short), the actual code and data of the program itself, a collection of metadata about the program such as resources used by the program, and at least one thread (or thread of execution) responsible for running the program code. When you run a program, the operating system (in this case, Windows) will load the program into memory, create PID and other metadata, and create a thread to run the program code (at least these are the minimum steps to starting a program; it is more complicated than this but at least I hope you understand the idea).

It is perfectly possible for programs to specify whether they wish to run a single instance of itself for everything, or run multiple instances of themselves. In case of the former, only one process can represent the program, or the program can ask the operating system to run different programs for specific tasks (for example, specialized tasks within web browsers, and using a specialized program to allow NVDA to talk to 64-bit programs more effectively). In case of the latter, each instance of the program (application) is a different process, as demonstrated in this thread. To summarize, a process is a program (application/app) stored on disk coming to life when you run it (opening it from Start menu, clicking a file type associated with the program, etc.).

Hoipe this helps.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: NVDA announcing shortcut keys

 

On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 01:04 PM, Gene wrote:
This should not be the default behavior.
-
Again, Gene, this is your opinion.  It is not mine.

In almost all programs, including NVDA, when people change settings they want those changes "to stick" and actually expect it unless they deliberately arrange it otherwise.  This has been a convention for decades, and across types of software.

You know how to turn this off.  If you don't like that default, then do that.  Your tastes, which are sometimes unusual, don't hold sway.  All the time you state, unequivocally, that they should.  Sorry, but, no.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Re: NVDA announcing shortcut keys

David Goldfield
 

That's fine. My apologies as I somehow missed that message.

David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive emails regarding news and events in the blindness assistive technology field.
Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2022 1:05 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA announcing shortcut keys

That's correct.  I said in my message something about if you haven't shut down NVDA for that reason.  Its also a reason that I strongly believe that the default setting should be changed.  By default, NVDA saves settings when you shut it down, which would mean when you restart or shut down Windows as instances.  You can turn this behavior off and manually save settings when you want to with Control+NVDA+c.


Because of this NVDA default behavior, I have twice lost every single one of my settings.  I had reverted to factory settings to check something, then I had forgotten that the factory settings would be automatically saved if I shut NVDA down.  When I rebooted again, I had lost all my settings and I had to manually reset them.


This should not be the default behavior.


Gene

On 1/16/2022 11:22 AM, David Goldfield wrote:
Pressing NVDA-ctrl-R isn't always a guarantee that you'll be able to revert back to a previous setting as a user could have saved a configuration, exited and then later restarted NVDA. In that case relying on the keystroke to revert to the previously saved configuration won't work.

David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive emails regarding news and events in the blindness assistive technology field.
Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.da
vidgoldfield.org%2F&amp;data=04%7C01%7C%7C8c847c5a449b49e7ecab08d9d91a
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CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1
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-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Don H
Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2022 12:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA announcing shortcut keys

Thanks this is the correct place to disable shortcut keys. I don't know what keystroke I accidently hit to mess up my settings. I will remember the insert control r for the next time these old stiff fingers hit the wrong keys.
Thanks

On 1/16/2022 10:32 AM, Gene wrote:
I haven't played with the setting to see if this is the applicable
one, but it appears to be in object presentation, report object shortcut keys.


Even if that is the applicable setting, you can see why using
control+NVDA+r is so much more convenient and efficient.


Gene

On 1/16/2022 10:27 AM, Gene wrote:
NVDA 4 is speak command keys on and off.  that isn't related to
announcing shortcuts.


Gene

On 1/16/2022 10:22 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
See Keyboard Settings in NVDA settings or try NVDA + 4, which I
believe toggles this announcement.
--

Brian -Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

*/The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group
fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes
inessential what these ideals are./*

*/       ~/*Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)








Re: NVDA announcing shortcut keys

Gene
 

That's correct.  I said in my message something about if you haven't shut down NVDA for that reason.  Its also a reason that I strongly believe that the default setting should be changed.  By default, NVDA saves settings when you shut it down, which would mean when you restart or shut down Windows as instances.  You can turn this behavior off and manually save settings when you want to with Control+NVDA+c.


Because of this NVDA default behavior, I have twice lost every single one of my settings.  I had reverted to factory settings to check something, then I had forgotten that the factory settings would be automatically saved if I shut NVDA down.  When I rebooted again, I had lost all my settings and I had to manually reset them.


This should not be the default behavior.


Gene

On 1/16/2022 11:22 AM, David Goldfield wrote:
Pressing NVDA-ctrl-R isn't always a guarantee that you'll be able to revert back to a previous setting as a user could have saved a configuration, exited and then later restarted NVDA. In that case relying on the keystroke to revert to the previously saved configuration won't work.

David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive emails regarding news and events in the blindness assistive technology field.
Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Don H
Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2022 12:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA announcing shortcut keys

Thanks this is the correct place to disable shortcut keys. I don't know what keystroke I accidently hit to mess up my settings. I will remember the insert control r for the next time these old stiff fingers hit the wrong keys.
Thanks

On 1/16/2022 10:32 AM, Gene wrote:
I haven't played with the setting to see if this is the applicable
one, but it appears to be in object presentation, report object shortcut keys.


Even if that is the applicable setting, you can see why using
control+NVDA+r is so much more convenient and efficient.


Gene

On 1/16/2022 10:27 AM, Gene wrote:
NVDA 4 is speak command keys on and off.  that isn't related to
announcing shortcuts.


Gene

On 1/16/2022 10:22 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
See Keyboard Settings in NVDA settings or try NVDA + 4, which I
believe toggles this announcement.
--

Brian -Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

*/The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group
fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes
inessential what these ideals are./*

*/       ~/*Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)






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