Date   

Re: backing up NVDA settings

Gene
 

I've read something about profiles and I've played a bit with a test profile.  If there is something I don't understand or am not taking into account, please let me know.


I think that any time any change is made anywhere, the dialog would come up.  Its up to the user to remember what changes he/she made and where.  As far as I can see, my proposal changes only one thing, that the user is asked so as not to accidentally or unintentionally have settings saved.  Whether the changes are made in a profile, the main program, or more than one profiles, I don't see how my proposal changes any behavior other than that the user approves or doesn't approve the saving.


It would be the same dialog.  It wouldn't specify whether the savings are in a profile or the main program nor in how many areas changes have been made.  The intent is to do nothing but prevent accidental or unintended saving of settings.


Gene

On 1/17/2022 1:43 PM, Gene wrote:

I'm not sure I understand your comments about profiles.  Are you saying that someone might change something in a profile, then go to another profile or back to the main program but they would be prompted when the program closes? 


Gene

On 1/17/2022 1:33 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi all,

A few things:

  1. Backing up settings somewhere: there is a facility in NVDA that will let add-ons react to settings save action. Using this facility, it is possible to create an add-on that will save settings to somewhere else so you can restore it later. However, this isn't effective when NVDA is exiting as add-ons will be gone by the time NVDA closes.
  2. Configuration profiles: one issue I have (as I also noted in a subsequent GitHub issue) is configuration profiles. Suppose a setting is introcued to alert users of settings changes when NVDA exits. What if the user exits NVDA while a profile other than normal configuration is active, and what if multiple profiles were edited? You might end up with a situation where you would save the wrong profile and discard the correct profile in regards to saving settings.
  3. Unexpected NVDA restart: suppose you change an important setting needed to resolve an issue you are having, and told NVDA to not save settings automatically. But suppose somehow NVDA restarts unexpectedly - perhaps an add-on has crashed NVDA (it is possible to crash NVDA with add-ons if they override functions provided by NVDA somehow or a DLL file performs unexpected things).

To focus on the original question at hand: a while ago it was proposed on GitHub and elsewhere to create a cloud backup feature to NVDA - that is, back up settings to the cloud and restore it later. The responses to this centers on possibility and logistics: it is possible to exchange data over the Internet, but how will NV Access keep track of which settings belongs to whom.

As for a related discussion on saving settings by default, if you think about it carefully, modern apps (Windows Settings, for example) will apply changes immediately. Even when we think about classic apps, save dialog applies to main content, not settings (tell us if changing view settings in Notepad without writing anything prompts a dialog to save settings). Even in Windows, unless you edit startup options or run Windows Preinstallation Environment (WinPE), settings are saved to Windows Registry even after you click OK to change settings. I won't go furtyher into this as the original question deals with backing up things, but I hope you get the idea.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: backing up NVDA settings

 

Hi,

Saving configuration is done in five steps:

  1. NVDA will see if it should save settings when exiting.
  2. If told to save settings, NVDA will first notify add-ons and other components that settings are about to be saved. This allows add-ons and other components to perform actions such as evaluating their own settings.
  3. Normal configuration is saved. This is mandatory.
  4. Modified configuration profiles are saved, if any.
  5. NVDA informs add-ons and other components that NVDA settings were saved. Add-ons will then perform actions such as saving their own settings.

A potential confusion can arise if NVDA is told to show config save prompt and:

  1. Multiple profiles other than normal configuration were edited.
  2. At least one of the modified profiles have multiple settings not saved yet.

Adding to the confusion is that:

  1. Internally, settings are stored as Python dictionaries, and settings (keys) are defined with text that are not easily translated for users. For example, show exit options is internally known as "askToExit", but in general settings it is labeled "Show exit options when exiting NVDA". Not all options are like this - in object presentation settings, "report notifications" is internally called "reportHelpBalloons". This is why the wording between nvda.ini is not the same as the ones shown in Settings screen.
  2. A setting may rely on more than one underlying configuration representation. For example, report indentation setting from document formatting panel relies on two flags: the actual line indentation reporting flag, and a flag indicating indentation announcement with tones. A bitwise operation is used to configure these flags for a total of four options: indentation off, indentation speech, indentation tone, indentation speech and tone.

Imagine a user is told about profile name and the exact setting that's different, and suppose the internal option names are used. Moreover, imagine the primary language of this user is not English. I hope you understand what I'm talking about.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: Microsoft Edge Suddenly Less Accessible with NVDA

Shawn
 

Search boxes like google have been becoming unreadable lately with Brave as well at times. The trick is to resize the window maximize or restore and it comes back until next time.

Shawn Klein

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: tim
Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2022 2:12 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Microsoft Edge Suddenly Less Accessible with NVDA

 

Try going through the settings and make sure they are what you want.

 

Because they have made updates to edge.

 

On 1/15/2022 12:12 PM, Rich DeSteno wrote:

> I have been using the current version of NVDA with the current version

> of Microsoft Edge on both Windows 10 and 11 with great success until

> recently.  Within the last few days, NVDA will no longer read the

> search term that I type in the search edit field. Also, when I press

> the Space Bar on a compressed listing of what other people ask, the

> contents open in a new window, so I must alt-tab to the other window

> to read the contents.  I assume these changes are either related to

> changes in Edge or NVDA.  Is anyone else aware of this or whether

> these problems will be corrected, or should I just give up and switch

> to Google Chrome?

 

 

 

 

 


Re: NVDA 2021.3.1 cursor doesn't move in Google product edit fields

Louise Pfau
 

Hi.  I just tried typing into a Google product search edit field with add-ons disabled, and I was able to replicate the issue.  I should note that the password edit fields appear to behave correctly.

Louise


Re: backing up NVDA settings

Gene
 

I've done almost nothing with profiles and I don't remember the little I did years ago.  I might have to read about profiles again to properly understand what you are saying.


As things are now, when you change a setting in a profile, then close NVDA whether you are in that profile or not, is the setting saved?  Are all changes everywhere automatically saved when using the default?  If so, how does the dialog change anything?  The user would answer yes or no and savings anywhere would be saved.  But if that isn't how profiles work, then the dialog might present problems and confusions I don't know about.


If the question is too involved to answer and I need to read about profiles to properly understand it, please let me know.


Gene

On 1/17/2022 2:08 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

As for profiles comment, consider the following scenario:

Imagine a user creates two configuration profiles: a manual profile, and an app-specific profile. With this set up, three profiles will be used: normal configuration, manual profile, and app-specific profile. Now suppose a feature to notify users about unsaved settings is implemented.

Now suppose this user activates the manual profile, called "profile 1". Then the user switches to the app-specific profile for an app, say Windows Terminal because the user needs to read terminal output, which takes place as soon as system focus moves to Windows Terminal window. now suppose the user opens object presentation settings panel from Windows Terminal window and tells NVDA to not announce object descriptions (by default, this setting is on).

Scenario 1: after changing settings, user exits NVDA while focused on Windows Terminal. NVDA says the current profile is not saved and offers to save changes.

Scenario 2: after changing settings, user moves to a different app and exits NVDA. NVDA will prompt to save settings.

Scenario 3: after changing settings, not only the user moves to a different app, but deactivates profile 1, the manual configuration profile, and then exits NVDA.

Scenario 4: after changing settings, not only the user moves to a different app and deactivates manual profile, the user creates a new profile and activates it. Then the user changes Windows OCR language and does not save settings, then exits NVDA.

Think carefully:

  • Scenario 1 is straightforward - at least the user thinks NVDA is presenting config save dialog while "focused" on Windows Terminal when in fact Windows Terminal profile is deactivated. Why? Because exit dialog is part of NVDA itself, not Windows Terminal, therefore the app is different and the Windows Terminal profile is deactivated.
  • Scenario 2 is a bit easier to understand on the surface but may confuse users without specifying exactly which profile is not saved.
  • Scenario 3 is similar to scenario 2 but with an important caveat: what if the user changes something from manual profile without saving it? If the setting is not changed, NVDA would have an easier time because only one profile needs to be saved. But if you do not save settings in more than one profile, then NVDA must present settings for multiple profiles.
  • Scenario 4 is perhaps the most complicated set up and demonstrates the question raised from scenario 3.

These complications arise due to how configuration profiles are organized and handled from NVDA, something I hope to write about when given a chance to do so. But suffice to say that configuration profiles handling uses at least three components: configuration maps, settings scope, and profile switch detection.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: backing up NVDA settings

 

Well maybe for profiles, each profile could be its own ini file with all the settings for that app in it would that work?



On 18/01/2022 8:33 am, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi all,

A few things:

  1. Backing up settings somewhere: there is a facility in NVDA that will let add-ons react to settings save action. Using this facility, it is possible to create an add-on that will save settings to somewhere else so you can restore it later. However, this isn't effective when NVDA is exiting as add-ons will be gone by the time NVDA closes.
  2. Configuration profiles: one issue I have (as I also noted in a subsequent GitHub issue) is configuration profiles. Suppose a setting is introcued to alert users of settings changes when NVDA exits. What if the user exits NVDA while a profile other than normal configuration is active, and what if multiple profiles were edited? You might end up with a situation where you would save the wrong profile and discard the correct profile in regards to saving settings.
  3. Unexpected NVDA restart: suppose you change an important setting needed to resolve an issue you are having, and told NVDA to not save settings automatically. But suppose somehow NVDA restarts unexpectedly - perhaps an add-on has crashed NVDA (it is possible to crash NVDA with add-ons if they override functions provided by NVDA somehow or a DLL file performs unexpected things).

To focus on the original question at hand: a while ago it was proposed on GitHub and elsewhere to create a cloud backup feature to NVDA - that is, back up settings to the cloud and restore it later. The responses to this centers on possibility and logistics: it is possible to exchange data over the Internet, but how will NV Access keep track of which settings belongs to whom.

As for a related discussion on saving settings by default, if you think about it carefully, modern apps (Windows Settings, for example) will apply changes immediately. Even when we think about classic apps, save dialog applies to main content, not settings (tell us if changing view settings in Notepad without writing anything prompts a dialog to save settings). Even in Windows, unless you edit startup options or run Windows Preinstallation Environment (WinPE), settings are saved to Windows Registry even after you click OK to change settings. I won't go furtyher into this as the original question deals with backing up things, but I hope you get the idea.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: Apology to list members

Louise Pfau
 

Hi.  I hope you feel better soon.

Louise


Re: backing up NVDA settings

 

On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 02:33 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Configuration profiles: one issue I have (as I also noted in a subsequent GitHub issue) is configuration profiles. Suppose a setting is introcued to alert users of settings changes when NVDA exits. What if the user exits NVDA while a profile other than normal configuration is active, and what if multiple profiles were edited? You might end up with a situation where you would save the wrong profile and discard the correct profile in regards to saving settings.
-
All of your points are excellent, but when it comes down to it something this complicated is unlikely to be solved programattically.

This is one reason I believe that when one is tweaking settings, it is best done "a few at a time" and an assessment done after each of those few to see if they work.  If so, a manual save should be done.

There are just some things that require thought on the part of the user, and in a situation as complicated as the one you outline, that's the case.  No matter what would end up being done by NVDA in a situation like that, someone's not going to be happy.  But those someone's do have the ability to ensure that what they want is saved as soon as they know it is what they want, and that's what they should be doing.

There would be no way for NVDA to guess "what's most important" to someone in a scenario like that one, and even trying to do so is contraindicated.

(As a not entirely humorous aside, this is why I think the predictions of AI taking over the world are overhyped.  There are just too many things that require "shades of gray" that I have yet to see any AI come close to emulating.  But what it can do already is plenty scary enough in a number of contexts.  It is "better than a human" in some of those contexts where there's less preference and way more analysis of available information to take "the optimal path with the information available" while taking emotion out of it.)
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Re: backing up NVDA settings

 

Hi,

As for profiles comment, consider the following scenario:

Imagine a user creates two configuration profiles: a manual profile, and an app-specific profile. With this set up, three profiles will be used: normal configuration, manual profile, and app-specific profile. Now suppose a feature to notify users about unsaved settings is implemented.

Now suppose this user activates the manual profile, called "profile 1". Then the user switches to the app-specific profile for an app, say Windows Terminal because the user needs to read terminal output, which takes place as soon as system focus moves to Windows Terminal window. now suppose the user opens object presentation settings panel from Windows Terminal window and tells NVDA to not announce object descriptions (by default, this setting is on).

Scenario 1: after changing settings, user exits NVDA while focused on Windows Terminal. NVDA says the current profile is not saved and offers to save changes.

Scenario 2: after changing settings, user moves to a different app and exits NVDA. NVDA will prompt to save settings.

Scenario 3: after changing settings, not only the user moves to a different app, but deactivates profile 1, the manual configuration profile, and then exits NVDA.

Scenario 4: after changing settings, not only the user moves to a different app and deactivates manual profile, the user creates a new profile and activates it. Then the user changes Windows OCR language and does not save settings, then exits NVDA.

Think carefully:

  • Scenario 1 is straightforward - at least the user thinks NVDA is presenting config save dialog while "focused" on Windows Terminal when in fact Windows Terminal profile is deactivated. Why? Because exit dialog is part of NVDA itself, not Windows Terminal, therefore the app is different and the Windows Terminal profile is deactivated.
  • Scenario 2 is a bit easier to understand on the surface but may confuse users without specifying exactly which profile is not saved.
  • Scenario 3 is similar to scenario 2 but with an important caveat: what if the user changes something from manual profile without saving it? If the setting is not changed, NVDA would have an easier time because only one profile needs to be saved. But if you do not save settings in more than one profile, then NVDA must present settings for multiple profiles.
  • Scenario 4 is perhaps the most complicated set up and demonstrates the question raised from scenario 3.

These complications arise due to how configuration profiles are organized and handled from NVDA, something I hope to write about when given a chance to do so. But suffice to say that configuration profiles handling uses at least three components: configuration maps, settings scope, and profile switch detection.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: backing up NVDA settings

 

On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 02:32 PM, Jackie wrote:
1 of the things I used to do when I was doing A T was to
actually let students get themselves in trouble, because eventually
it's gonna happen, & learning how to listen to the directions the
program is providing that in many cases will help get them extricated
is a skill that needs to be learned early.
-
Amen, Jackie!!   I'm sure we both gauged "how much trouble" and "how deep" depending on the student and when we'd intervene, but the general principal applied.

Sometimes I will cue a student into the fact that they've missed an error because they weren't listening and that, at the early stages of the game, you must listen to everything.  But, just like there is "muscle memory" there is ear memory and you can, and should, learn what you don't have to listen to with care as time goes on.  I doubt that there's any one of us, regardless of the sensory modality involved, that doesn't develop an "auto pilot" setting where what we always hear or see just becomes so much background, but when something out of the ordinary occurs in the announcement stream or visually, you suddenly snap to attention.  That really is a very basic skill that needs to be learned.  Another one, and it's not really related, but that I've always found needs to be explicitly stated is that it's perfectly fine to use CTRL or Esc to make the screen reader STFU.  With the advent of very human sounding synthesizers, I've observed many who are new to screen readers reacting to what they're saying as though it's a real human saying it, and not interrupting out of typical human politeness.  I disabuse them of the notion that they need to be polite to the screen reader software very promptly.

I've learned a lot more by being allowed to make mistakes, by intent by the instructor, and having them give me the absolute minimum feedback possible both when making the mistake and when extricating myself, than I ever have by being told what to do.  I also tend to remember, much better, things that I had to "figure out by myself or almost by myself."  It also teaches you that it is well nigh impossible to really break, as in it just can't be fixed, anything related to a computer when it comes to something you can do as a user with software.  Everything can be reversed, and just knowing that, and knowing you can do that, even if you don't have the immediate means to do it, can take a heap off your mind.

All of the above said, in 2022, Backup, Backup, Backup!! is also a basic skill that anyone who cares about their own work and data must do.  It's the absolute cheapest insurance for both your data and your sanity.  Sadly it all too often takes having lost everything, and it being unrecoverable even in professional data recovery facilities, for some to accept this and actually do it.  Massive backup drives (local ones - USB connected) can be had for very well under $100 these days, and cloud storage, if you have internet fast enough to backup to it, is also really, really cheap.  Back up your full system image, at a minimum, and do separate user data backups (which can include things like NVDA settings) as well.  When you need each kind of backup differs, and getting to one file in a straight user data backup archive is usually a lot easier than trying to use the utilities to pick it out of a full system image backup.  (As Sarah's earlier post clearly suggests, the XCOPY or ROBOCOPY command under Command Prompt can be used to very quicky create a user data backup of whatever "scope of files" you might want.)
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Re: backing up NVDA settings

hurrikennyandopo ...
 

Hi


It depends if you are using a portable or a installed version of nvda.


The nvda.ini file is for the installer version found at on a windows pc press the windows key then go to all apps then go to nvda folder a sub menu will come off it. Locate the explore nvda user configuration directory. Then locate the nvda.ini file and save it some where..


On a portable locate it go into the folder what ever you named it in my case nvda. Locate the nvda user configuration folder go inside of it then locate the nvda.ini file. Then save it some where.


I can if it helps put directions up on the website to find the nvda.ini file or have it so they can save addons etc which are all in the same area.


Gene nz

On 18/01/2022 5:45 am, Don H wrote:
Running latest NVDA on latest Win10 system.  Totally my fault I hit some unknown key combinations that messed up my NVDA settings.  Then I did the totally wrong thing and restarted NVDA which caused my messed up settings to be saved.  Is there a file or folder that can be backed up to save your NVDA settings?  This would save dummies like from me from losing the good settings.
Thanks




Re: backing up NVDA settings

Don H
 

When you change the NVDA settings there are two files only within the
appdata/roaming/nvda folder being changed. So only backing up those two
files would work rather than backing up the whole nvda folder at that
location.

On 1/17/2022 1:18 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 01:54 PM, Chris wrote:

But more often than not users are left scratching their arse when
something that was working before shutting down and now its
completely screwed up today!

-
Chris,

The problem being that I have heard both, and plenty.

In the end, there is no solution here, there is just personal preference
and optimal design as far as how users are, or are not, prompted.

I have long ago gotten over the idea that you can please all of the
people all of the time, or that users will even bother to learn a lot of
the basics of whatever it is they happen to be using.  I've also come to
the conclusion that the computing version of, "Ignorance of the law is
no excuse," applies.

Everything, absolutely everything, has default settings and behaviors.
If you (the generic you) are going to use them, then it is incumbent on
you to take the time to learn what those are.  And it usually doesn't
take very long to do so.  No one is expecting anyone to RTFM from cover
to cover for something like Windows, NVDA, JAWS, MS-Word, MS-Excel, or
similar.  But at least having read and digested the quick start guides
would be a very good starting point.  And I will add, in the case of
NVDA, the entire user guide is not very long at all and huge sections of
it can be skipped over if you know you aren't using, for instance, a
Braille display.  It is comprehensible, and even if you don't (and,
believe me, you don't) memorize each and every thing just having the
knowledge, in the back of your head, that "something about how to do
{insert thing you want to do at a later date here}" was discussed is
very helpful indeed when you decide you actually want to do it.

I am just so over the idea that it's OK for users to not know how to
reference the various pieces of documentation for whatever they use.
And I'd say I'm even more adamant about that for screen reading software
in particular.  I don't know of anyone, including myself, who knows it
all and has it all memorized.  I'd say that for well over 90% of the
"more esoteric" questions I answer on this very group the way I get the
answer is opening the NVDA Commands Quick Reference and/or NVDA User
Guide and using just one or two key words from the original question,
and, voilà, there it is.

In the year 2022, it is completely unacceptable for anyone to believe
that not being able to seek out readily available information,
independently, is just A-OK.  It's not, and if you don't know how the
first thing you should set about doing is learning by asking, "How do I
go about finding . . . ?," rather than asking for an answer.  Teach a
man or woman to fish . . .

None of the above should be a surprise to anyone who's been reading me
over time, either, and is the very reason I've pretty much stopped
giving direct answers to queries along the lines of, "What's the
command/keystroke for . . .?," opting instead to give the instructions
for opening the Commands Quick Reference along with the search word or
phrase that gets the questioner straight to the answer or very, very
near to it.  That gives both the answer, and teaches a skill.
--

Brian -Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

*/The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting
for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what
these ideals are./*

*/       ~/*Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)


Re: backing up NVDA settings

Gene
 

I'm not sure I understand your comments about profiles.  Are you saying that someone might change something in a profile, then go to another profile or back to the main program but they would be prompted when the program closes? 


Gene

On 1/17/2022 1:33 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi all,

A few things:

  1. Backing up settings somewhere: there is a facility in NVDA that will let add-ons react to settings save action. Using this facility, it is possible to create an add-on that will save settings to somewhere else so you can restore it later. However, this isn't effective when NVDA is exiting as add-ons will be gone by the time NVDA closes.
  2. Configuration profiles: one issue I have (as I also noted in a subsequent GitHub issue) is configuration profiles. Suppose a setting is introcued to alert users of settings changes when NVDA exits. What if the user exits NVDA while a profile other than normal configuration is active, and what if multiple profiles were edited? You might end up with a situation where you would save the wrong profile and discard the correct profile in regards to saving settings.
  3. Unexpected NVDA restart: suppose you change an important setting needed to resolve an issue you are having, and told NVDA to not save settings automatically. But suppose somehow NVDA restarts unexpectedly - perhaps an add-on has crashed NVDA (it is possible to crash NVDA with add-ons if they override functions provided by NVDA somehow or a DLL file performs unexpected things).

To focus on the original question at hand: a while ago it was proposed on GitHub and elsewhere to create a cloud backup feature to NVDA - that is, back up settings to the cloud and restore it later. The responses to this centers on possibility and logistics: it is possible to exchange data over the Internet, but how will NV Access keep track of which settings belongs to whom.

As for a related discussion on saving settings by default, if you think about it carefully, modern apps (Windows Settings, for example) will apply changes immediately. Even when we think about classic apps, save dialog applies to main content, not settings (tell us if changing view settings in Notepad without writing anything prompts a dialog to save settings). Even in Windows, unless you edit startup options or run Windows Preinstallation Environment (WinPE), settings are saved to Windows Registry even after you click OK to change settings. I won't go furtyher into this as the original question deals with backing up things, but I hope you get the idea.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: backing up NVDA settings

 

Hi all,

A few things:

  1. Backing up settings somewhere: there is a facility in NVDA that will let add-ons react to settings save action. Using this facility, it is possible to create an add-on that will save settings to somewhere else so you can restore it later. However, this isn't effective when NVDA is exiting as add-ons will be gone by the time NVDA closes.
  2. Configuration profiles: one issue I have (as I also noted in a subsequent GitHub issue) is configuration profiles. Suppose a setting is introcued to alert users of settings changes when NVDA exits. What if the user exits NVDA while a profile other than normal configuration is active, and what if multiple profiles were edited? You might end up with a situation where you would save the wrong profile and discard the correct profile in regards to saving settings.
  3. Unexpected NVDA restart: suppose you change an important setting needed to resolve an issue you are having, and told NVDA to not save settings automatically. But suppose somehow NVDA restarts unexpectedly - perhaps an add-on has crashed NVDA (it is possible to crash NVDA with add-ons if they override functions provided by NVDA somehow or a DLL file performs unexpected things).

To focus on the original question at hand: a while ago it was proposed on GitHub and elsewhere to create a cloud backup feature to NVDA - that is, back up settings to the cloud and restore it later. The responses to this centers on possibility and logistics: it is possible to exchange data over the Internet, but how will NV Access keep track of which settings belongs to whom.

As for a related discussion on saving settings by default, if you think about it carefully, modern apps (Windows Settings, for example) will apply changes immediately. Even when we think about classic apps, save dialog applies to main content, not settings (tell us if changing view settings in Notepad without writing anything prompts a dialog to save settings). Even in Windows, unless you edit startup options or run Windows Preinstallation Environment (WinPE), settings are saved to Windows Registry even after you click OK to change settings. I won't go furtyher into this as the original question deals with backing up things, but I hope you get the idea.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: backing up NVDA settings

Jackie
 

Absolutely! 1 of the things I used to do when I was doing A T was to
actually let students get themselves in trouble, because eventually
it's gonna happen, & learning how to listen to the directions the
program is providing that in many cases will help get them extricated
is a skill that needs to be learned early. Some folks got really
really mad at me, but many said they felt it was the most valuable
part of their learning. & those who got P O'd really never did succeed
at using the computer well, tbh. Learning how to listen to the screen
reader & read docs/find information are absolutely the 2 most valuable
skills a computer user can acquire.

On 1/17/22, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 01:54 PM, Chris wrote:


But more often than not users are left scratching their arse when
something that was working before shutting down and now its completely
screwed up today!
-
Chris,

The problem being that I have heard both, and plenty.

In the end, there is no solution here, there is just personal preference and
optimal design as far as how users are, or are not, prompted.

I have long ago gotten over the idea that you can please all of the people
all of the time, or that users will even bother to learn a lot of the basics
of whatever it is they happen to be using.  I've also come to the conclusion
that the computing version of, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse,"
applies.

Everything, absolutely everything, has default settings and behaviors.  If
you (the generic you) are going to use them, then it is incumbent on you to
take the time to learn what those are.  And it usually doesn't take very
long to do so.  No one is expecting anyone to RTFM from cover to cover for
something like Windows, NVDA, JAWS, MS-Word, MS-Excel, or similar.  But at
least having read and digested the quick start guides would be a very good
starting point.  And I will add, in the case of NVDA, the entire user guide
is not very long at all and huge sections of it can be skipped over if you
know you aren't using, for instance, a Braille display.  It is
comprehensible, and even if you don't (and, believe me, you don't) memorize
each and every thing just having the knowledge, in the back of your head,
that "something about how to do {insert thing you want to do at a later date
here}" was discussed is very helpful indeed when you decide you actually
want to do it.

I am just so over the idea that it's OK for users to not know how to
reference the various pieces of documentation for whatever they use.  And
I'd say I'm even more adamant about that for screen reading software in
particular.  I don't know of anyone, including myself, who knows it all and
has it all memorized.  I'd say that for well over 90% of the "more esoteric"
questions I answer on this very group the way I get the answer is opening
the NVDA Commands Quick Reference and/or NVDA User Guide and using just one
or two key words from the original question, and, voilà, there it is.

In the year 2022, it is completely unacceptable for anyone to believe that
not being able to seek out readily available information, independently, is
just A-OK.  It's not, and if you don't know how the first thing you should
set about doing is learning by asking, "How do I go about finding . . . ?,"
rather than asking for an answer.  Teach a man or woman to fish . . .

None of the above should be a surprise to anyone who's been reading me over
time, either, and is the very reason I've pretty much stopped giving direct
answers to queries along the lines of, "What's the command/keystroke for . .
.?," opting instead to give the instructions for opening the Commands Quick
Reference along with the search word or phrase that gets the questioner
straight to the answer or very, very near to it.  That gives both the
answer, and teaches a skill.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

*The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for
common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these
ideals are.*

*~* Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)





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Re: backing up NVDA settings

 

On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 01:54 PM, Chris wrote:
But more often than not users are left scratching their arse when something that was working before shutting down and now its completely screwed up today!
-
Chris,

The problem being that I have heard both, and plenty.

In the end, there is no solution here, there is just personal preference and optimal design as far as how users are, or are not, prompted.

I have long ago gotten over the idea that you can please all of the people all of the time, or that users will even bother to learn a lot of the basics of whatever it is they happen to be using.  I've also come to the conclusion that the computing version of, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse," applies.

Everything, absolutely everything, has default settings and behaviors.  If you (the generic you) are going to use them, then it is incumbent on you to take the time to learn what those are.  And it usually doesn't take very long to do so.  No one is expecting anyone to RTFM from cover to cover for something like Windows, NVDA, JAWS, MS-Word, MS-Excel, or similar.  But at least having read and digested the quick start guides would be a very good starting point.  And I will add, in the case of NVDA, the entire user guide is not very long at all and huge sections of it can be skipped over if you know you aren't using, for instance, a Braille display.  It is comprehensible, and even if you don't (and, believe me, you don't) memorize each and every thing just having the knowledge, in the back of your head, that "something about how to do {insert thing you want to do at a later date here}" was discussed is very helpful indeed when you decide you actually want to do it.

I am just so over the idea that it's OK for users to not know how to reference the various pieces of documentation for whatever they use.  And I'd say I'm even more adamant about that for screen reading software in particular.  I don't know of anyone, including myself, who knows it all and has it all memorized.  I'd say that for well over 90% of the "more esoteric" questions I answer on this very group the way I get the answer is opening the NVDA Commands Quick Reference and/or NVDA User Guide and using just one or two key words from the original question, and, voilà, there it is.

In the year 2022, it is completely unacceptable for anyone to believe that not being able to seek out readily available information, independently, is just A-OK.  It's not, and if you don't know how the first thing you should set about doing is learning by asking, "How do I go about finding . . . ?," rather than asking for an answer.  Teach a man or woman to fish . . .

None of the above should be a surprise to anyone who's been reading me over time, either, and is the very reason I've pretty much stopped giving direct answers to queries along the lines of, "What's the command/keystroke for . . .?," opting instead to give the instructions for opening the Commands Quick Reference along with the search word or phrase that gets the questioner straight to the answer or very, very near to it.  That gives both the answer, and teaches a skill.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Re: backing up NVDA settings

 

Yeah, had that happen quite a lot.

I do a lot of repairs, if you can track it to a broken hardware, busted drivers, a user error, something like them wanting something and then getting a bunch of spyware and then having to fix that, that I can understand.

One user did that with a conference recorder.

He loaded a free one.

It wasn't free at all.

I pay for a conversion suite that has that functionality.

It was a snap to spend the 9 bucks to get him the right module.

I had the same with the same user with a busted wireless card, took out his sound drivers, user account a bunch of spyware got in.

The card was not only busted the manufacturer no longer existed.

But I have had users that load the same things constantly.

I had to give up on those.

I have also had users just well get stuff and are not sure where they went.

Even though I try the same command and can't find an error.

Users especially the alderly can get distracted with buttons even though they should not to push that button.

Teens can do things to.

A shared computer unless everyone can be trusted is a headake.

But I have my limits.

Generally unless I need to I won't spend 3 days on an issue.

If its broken and I can't fix it easilly, I tend to take it right back to basics.

Note down everythhing, get their software, reformat, then build it up updating and checking as I go.

Eventually I find the issue or fix issues as I go.

Especially if its a new system it forces me to see what needs doing and other things.

I have had a couple stories with one user that had updated but left everything at defaults so no wander it broke.

I have also had another user with a game I had to work round.


Both users refused a format.

So a repair job for both took me 2 weeks for one user and a month for the other.

I was payed and charged accordingly, but I could have had both systems up within a week if I had started from basics.

Its

It is worth knowing though that 1 reason I didn't insist to much was that both systems had spinning main drives and I wanted to just sort them.

My brother had one such system.

Was always going, being patched and holding.

However its neever needed a reinstall because it was up for like 24-7 well it never got reloaded though it clearly needed it.

Then it was just to old.


Then it just didn't turn on.

Maybe since my brother refuses to pick it up I will use it for a doorstop.



On 18/01/2022 7:54 am, Chris via groups.io wrote:

But more often than not users are left scratching their arse when something that was working before shutting down and now its completely screwed up today!

 

How often have you heard that???

 

 

From: Brian Vogel
Sent: 17 January 2022 18:08
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] backing up NVDA settings

 

On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 12:10 PM, Chris wrote:

Your best option in the first place would be to uncheck the option to save configuration on exit!

That way any accidental setting change would not be saved unless of course you save the configuration manually

-
I am not trying to argue your central point, which is entirely valid, but I can say that I have seen, on more than one occasion, where those who've turned automatic save off wail mightily when hours of settings tweaks end up not being saved because they forgot to save them.

In the end, it is critical that you (the generic you), know and understand precisely how your NVDA on your machine(s) is configured.  It's the only way you can know what's necessary to either make sure that what you're doing is going to have the result you expect.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 

 


Re: backing up NVDA settings

Gene
 

That's what I have in mind, like the dialog in a word processor that only comes up when you close a document and don't save the changes.


Gene

On 1/17/2022 12:51 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 01:35 PM, Gene wrote:
Perhaps the best way to approach the problem is to keep the default behavior but have a dialog come up asking if you want to save the changes when the program shuts down.
-
Not that this couldn't work, but I can only imagine how annoying it would be and, even worse, how people would go into "autopilot mode" in regard to it and still mess things up by giving their "automatic response" or taking whatever the default is.

Personally, I do not like dialogs to appear all the time for something like this, only when a state change has been detected.  And if you were implying it should only come up if a settings change was made, then that could work perfectly.  It would only nag when getting the user's attention about making a critical decision is required.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Re: backing up NVDA settings

Chris
 

But more often than not users are left scratching their arse when something that was working before shutting down and now its completely screwed up today!

 

How often have you heard that???

 

 

From: Brian Vogel
Sent: 17 January 2022 18:08
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] backing up NVDA settings

 

On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 12:10 PM, Chris wrote:

Your best option in the first place would be to uncheck the option to save configuration on exit!

That way any accidental setting change would not be saved unless of course you save the configuration manually

-
I am not trying to argue your central point, which is entirely valid, but I can say that I have seen, on more than one occasion, where those who've turned automatic save off wail mightily when hours of settings tweaks end up not being saved because they forgot to save them.

In the end, it is critical that you (the generic you), know and understand precisely how your NVDA on your machine(s) is configured.  It's the only way you can know what's necessary to either make sure that what you're doing is going to have the result you expect.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 

 


Re: backing up NVDA settings

 

On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 01:35 PM, Gene wrote:
Perhaps the best way to approach the problem is to keep the default behavior but have a dialog come up asking if you want to save the changes when the program shuts down.
-
Not that this couldn't work, but I can only imagine how annoying it would be and, even worse, how people would go into "autopilot mode" in regard to it and still mess things up by giving their "automatic response" or taking whatever the default is.

Personally, I do not like dialogs to appear all the time for something like this, only when a state change has been detected.  And if you were implying it should only come up if a settings change was made, then that could work perfectly.  It would only nag when getting the user's attention about making a critical decision is required.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 

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