Date   

locked Re: control names

Rowen Cary
 

Hi,

I understand what you're saying, but when we use the up and down arrows to browse the web page, NVDA will report the word "link" first, and then report the text of the link, which is inefficient as some people say. If I remember correctly, there is also a discussion about this in NVDA's Issue, can you share your opinion? Why didn't NVAccess make some improvements to this?

Grateful On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 12:54 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi all,

Brian's reasons are very convincing. Now let me give you a more convincing reason:

Short answer: Don, I'm sorry, but your suggestion cannot become reality without "warping reality itself."

Explanation: internally, NVDA uses several functions to obtain control properties such as name (label), role, state, selection status, among other things. These functions pass around two things:

  • Object properties: a dictionary of property names and their current (or sometimes, cached) values. For example, one of the properties is "role", which records NVDA's understanding of the role of the object (as reported by accessibility API's).
  • Speech sequence: object properties are then sequenced to give you the speech you hear, typically in the following order: name, role, custom role text 9if defined by contrls and web documents), state, description, value, table coordinate information (if appropriate), and other properties. Speech sequences are stored as a list of strings and are added (concatenated) together to present control information in a variety of forms, including speech and braille.

As Brian observed, the words "start button" carries two control properties: label (Start) and role (button). In reality, the Start button includes other properties, but to NVDA, what's more important in this case are label and role. The process involved in NVDA saying "Start button" is:

  1. NVDA notices that you have moved system focus to a button named "Start".
  2. NVDA will create an internal representation of this control and ask accessibility API's for information such as label and role. NVDA gathers other things such as button location, but these are not important.
  3. NVDA will represent object properties in a format that can be understood by various output processors. This is when object properties dictionary is passed to speech, braille, and other output modules.
  4. The speech output processor will construct a speech sequence based on object properties given. The sequence will contain the terms "name: Start" and "role: button" (at a high-level, but it is represented differently internally). This sequence is then gathered and added together to produce the words "Start button".
  5. Similarly, braille output processor will format these properties for display on a braille display, except role names are shortened. As a result, braille users will see "Start btn" on their displays.

Now what will it take to "warp reality?" I'll leave that up to you (hint: it isn't easy not just because you need to test a lot, but also thanks to philosophical discussions). Until next time...

P.S. I feel that, lately, I've become some kind of a historian or something. If only I can travel back to the 1980's (Stranger Things, anyone?).

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: Add-on Updater and Windows App Essentials 22.02 released #addonrelease

 

Which web browser are you using?
If you're using Firefox, there should be a dialog prompting you to save the file.


A quick question about mathematics and navigating them with in MS Word

cisco
 

Hello everyone,

I'd like to ask if  there is a way, with or without add-ons, to navigate math equations hierarchically  in MS Word 365 like you'd do with mathml content.

I'm using MS Word 365 with Windows 11 insider build 22543, the latest one as of now, and NVDA 2021.3.1

If there is a way, how would I go about doing that?

Thank you and best regards.

Francisco.


locked Re: control names

Gene
 

I'm not saying that if something is in a piece of software, that means that it should be incorporated into another just because it is there.  But it is my impression that, for some reason, some users want to change the order, for example, hearing the text spoken before the word link. 


I'll read Joseph Lee's message again.  At present, I don't understand it enough to know if and how it bears on what I said. 


Gene

On 1/29/2022 11:03 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Sat, Jan 29, 2022 at 11:58 PM, Gene wrote:
it was definable in Window-eyes.
-
The following is not aimed at you, Gene, but at the fact you stated above:  So what?

There are bad design decisions all the time in myriad pieces of software.  Spreading them around is not a good idea.

If between what I gave the demonstration for and Joseph explained in depth with regard to "how things work under the hood" is not enough to make the wisdom of what Window Eyes allowed questionable, nothing will.

I wouldn't endorse spreading NVDA's method of continuing processing of a dictionary after the first match and replacement has made, passing the replacement along for further matching and replacement, to other software, either.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Re: NVDA announcing Capital letters

Gene
 

Here is part of a message from the archive.  You may solve the problem this way, though its cumbersome.


Despite having say cap on capital letters being unchecked NVDA still says cap with capital letters being typed and read.
I went into the defauld dictionary and added a entry for Capital A replacing it with a lower case a making it capital sensitive and set for anywhere.
Now when I type a Capital a I only hear the letter a at a raised pitch. Does this provide any reason for the problem of NVDA saying capital before each capital letter?  If this is a possible solution is there a way to do it besides making 26 entries in the default dictionary thus covering the entire alphabet?


I'm not sure if you hear cap or capital but adjust the procedure accordingly.


Gene

On 1/29/2022 10:14 AM, Don H wrote:
Running latest released versions of win 10 and NVDA.
Have been reporting that NVDA is saying capital before each uppercase letter.
I think this is being caused by having the following speech settings
Say cap before capital letters unchecked
use spelling functionality if supported is also unchecked
With these two settings unchecked my system says capital before each uppercase letter
Now if you have
Say cap before capital letters checked anduse spelling functionality if supported also checked on my system NVDA spells out cap before uppercase letters.
Can anyone else duplicate this?






locked Re: control names

 

On Sat, Jan 29, 2022 at 11:58 PM, Gene wrote:
it was definable in Window-eyes.
-
The following is not aimed at you, Gene, but at the fact you stated above:  So what?

There are bad design decisions all the time in myriad pieces of software.  Spreading them around is not a good idea.

If between what I gave the demonstration for and Joseph explained in depth with regard to "how things work under the hood" is not enough to make the wisdom of what Window Eyes allowed questionable, nothing will.

I wouldn't endorse spreading NVDA's method of continuing processing of a dictionary after the first match and replacement has made, passing the replacement along for further matching and replacement, to other software, either.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


locked Re: control names

Gene
 

I didn't say the name of the control should be user definable.  I hadn't thought about that.  But as to whether the name such as start is spoken first or the class such as button, should be definable, it was definable in Window-eyes.  I don't know if it is definable in JAWS. 


I don't have strong opinions about that, but I believe the order should be definable.


Gene

On 1/29/2022 9:38 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Sat, Jan 29, 2022 at 09:38 PM, Gene wrote:
The following isn't to say that this should not be user definable, it should. 
-
Actually, I disagree, and strongly.  

These things are defined by, and exposed to, the screen reader by Windows itself.  And I have little doubt (though there is a tiny scintilla) that NVDA does not even route things that are exposed by Windows that are Windows controls and dialogs, etc., through the dictionary processor.

They're not "text" in any conventional sense of the phrase, and shouldn't be treated as such.  OS control names, and how they are announced, should not be user definable.  All hell could easily break loose were that permitted.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


locked Re: control names

 

Hi all,

Brian's reasons are very convincing. Now let me give you a more convincing reason:

Short answer: Don, I'm sorry, but your suggestion cannot become reality without "warping reality itself."

Explanation: internally, NVDA uses several functions to obtain control properties such as name (label), role, state, selection status, among other things. These functions pass around two things:

  • Object properties: a dictionary of property names and their current (or sometimes, cached) values. For example, one of the properties is "role", which records NVDA's understanding of the role of the object (as reported by accessibility API's).
  • Speech sequence: object properties are then sequenced to give you the speech you hear, typically in the following order: name, role, custom role text 9if defined by contrls and web documents), state, description, value, table coordinate information (if appropriate), and other properties. Speech sequences are stored as a list of strings and are added (concatenated) together to present control information in a variety of forms, including speech and braille.

As Brian observed, the words "start button" carries two control properties: label (Start) and role (button). In reality, the Start button includes other properties, but to NVDA, what's more important in this case are label and role. The process involved in NVDA saying "Start button" is:

  1. NVDA notices that you have moved system focus to a button named "Start".
  2. NVDA will create an internal representation of this control and ask accessibility API's for information such as label and role. NVDA gathers other things such as button location, but these are not important.
  3. NVDA will represent object properties in a format that can be understood by various output processors. This is when object properties dictionary is passed to speech, braille, and other output modules.
  4. The speech output processor will construct a speech sequence based on object properties given. The sequence will contain the terms "name: Start" and "role: button" (at a high-level, but it is represented differently internally). This sequence is then gathered and added together to produce the words "Start button".
  5. Similarly, braille output processor will format these properties for display on a braille display, except role names are shortened. As a result, braille users will see "Start btn" on their displays.

Now what will it take to "warp reality?" I'll leave that up to you (hint: it isn't easy not just because you need to test a lot, but also thanks to philosophical discussions). Until next time...

P.S. I feel that, lately, I've become some kind of a historian or something. If only I can travel back to the 1980's (Stranger Things, anyone?).

Cheers,

Joseph


locked Re: control names

 

The sentence in that last post should have been:  The start button is one of the primary controls of Windows.

If you use what I typed, "buttion," in the original the desired "messy outcome" is not going to occur.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


locked Re: control names

 

I've just proven my theory about control text not being sent through the dictionary processing wrong.

If you want to see "fun with dictionary replacement" for the start button, try putting this in the temporary dictionary, the part before the pipe character being the match afterward the replacement.

start button|button start
start|begin
button|control

then route to the start button in the taskbar.  Then have NVDA read the following sentence:

The start buttion is one of the primary controls of Windows.

This is why I don't think:
1. OS controls should have their names dictionary processed.
2. That the dictionary processing should continue after a match has been made.  On match, substitute, then drop out.  Don't process the substitute against the remainder of the dictionary.

-------
If you used the temporary dictionary, if you restart NVDA, all of the above is gone, which is a good thing.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


locked Re: control names

 

On Sat, Jan 29, 2022 at 09:38 PM, Gene wrote:
The following isn't to say that this should not be user definable, it should. 
-
Actually, I disagree, and strongly.  

These things are defined by, and exposed to, the screen reader by Windows itself.  And I have little doubt (though there is a tiny scintilla) that NVDA does not even route things that are exposed by Windows that are Windows controls and dialogs, etc., through the dictionary processor.

They're not "text" in any conventional sense of the phrase, and shouldn't be treated as such.  OS control names, and how they are announced, should not be user definable.  All hell could easily break loose were that permitted.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


locked Re: control names

Gene
 

I was experimenting and it seems as though, for a technical reason, control names can't be changed by the speech dictionary. I can change how start is spoken, or what is said in its place but when I make an entry for the word button, that has no effect on how button is spoken when it is spoken as a control.  Out of curiosity, I wonder why that is.


Gene

On 1/29/2022 8:38 PM, Gene wrote:
The following isn't to say that this should not be user definable, it should.  I don't know why what you tried didn't work but try leaving it as it is for a week.  I think you will get used to it and it won't bother you.  And on web pages and dialogs, you will hear the same order.  As I said, hearing the control class first is less efficient.  I don't want to hear button OK.  I want to hear OK button.  When I hear OK, I know its a button.  When have you ever heard OK in a dialog when it wasn't.  Hearing button first doesn't tell you what the button is first.  It tells you that you are on a button.


And in other cases, if I'm moving through a web page by link, using the letter k, I know I'm moving to a link.  I want to hear the text of the link first.  I don't want to hear the word link before the text of every link.  I can skip the link without hearing link first every time I get to a link.  If the first number of words tell me the link isn't something I want to hear further, I can skip it without another unnecessary word.


That sort of thing adds up over time and, for me, is very annoying.


Gene

On 1/29/2022 8:21 PM, Don H wrote:
Having been a Window Eyes user for many many years there was a option to
change such things.  I tried putting start button in the default
dictionary to be replaced with button start and it did not work.

On 1/29/2022 8:13 PM, Gene wrote:
Unless there is an add-on I am not familiar with, there is no setting to
say the kind of control first.  You might be able to change this in the
speech dictionary.  Why do you want to make such a change.  It is less
efficient to hear the word button before what it is.


Gene

On 1/29/2022 6:11 PM, Don H wrote:
When I tab through all the areas of my desktop i hear for example
Start Button.  Is there a way to change this from within NVDA to say
Button Start instead of what is now saying Start  Button?
Thanks










locked Re: control names

Gene
 

The following isn't to say that this should not be user definable, it should.  I don't know why what you tried didn't work but try leaving it as it is for a week.  I think you will get used to it and it won't bother you.  And on web pages and dialogs, you will hear the same order.  As I said, hearing the control class first is less efficient.  I don't want to hear button OK.  I want to hear OK button.  When I hear OK, I know its a button.  When have you ever heard OK in a dialog when it wasn't.  Hearing button first doesn't tell you what the button is first.  It tells you that you are on a button.


And in other cases, if I'm moving through a web page by link, using the letter k, I know I'm moving to a link.  I want to hear the text of the link first.  I don't want to hear the word link before the text of every link.  I can skip the link without hearing link first every time I get to a link.  If the first number of words tell me the link isn't something I want to hear further, I can skip it without another unnecessary word.


That sort of thing adds up over time and, for me, is very annoying.


Gene

On 1/29/2022 8:21 PM, Don H wrote:
Having been a Window Eyes user for many many years there was a option to
change such things.  I tried putting start button in the default
dictionary to be replaced with button start and it did not work.

On 1/29/2022 8:13 PM, Gene wrote:
Unless there is an add-on I am not familiar with, there is no setting to
say the kind of control first.  You might be able to change this in the
speech dictionary.  Why do you want to make such a change.  It is less
efficient to hear the word button before what it is.


Gene

On 1/29/2022 6:11 PM, Don H wrote:
When I tab through all the areas of my desktop i hear for example
Start Button.  Is there a way to change this from within NVDA to say
Button Start instead of what is now saying Start  Button?
Thanks










locked Re: control names

Don H
 

Having been a Window Eyes user for many many years there was a option to
change such things. I tried putting start button in the default
dictionary to be replaced with button start and it did not work.

On 1/29/2022 8:13 PM, Gene wrote:
Unless there is an add-on I am not familiar with, there is no setting to
say the kind of control first.  You might be able to change this in the
speech dictionary.  Why do you want to make such a change.  It is less
efficient to hear the word button before what it is.


Gene

On 1/29/2022 6:11 PM, Don H wrote:
When I tab through all the areas of my desktop i hear for example
Start Button.  Is there a way to change this from within NVDA to say
Button Start instead of what is now saying Start  Button?
Thanks







locked Re: control names

Gene
 

Unless there is an add-on I am not familiar with, there is no setting to say the kind of control first.  You might be able to change this in the speech dictionary.  Why do you want to make such a change.  It is less efficient to hear the word button before what it is.


Gene

On 1/29/2022 6:11 PM, Don H wrote:
When I tab through all the areas of my desktop i hear for example Start Button.  Is there a way to change this from within NVDA to say Button Start instead of what is now saying Start  Button?
Thanks




locked Announcement Only: Windows 11 #adminnotice

 
Edited

Although this is the NVDA Group, it would be ill-advised to ignore the rollout of Windows 11, as it's the next Windows ecosystem that anyone staying with Windows is going to have to transition to.

On the JFW-Users group, several have raised the concern that a message saying that not all features available in Windows 10 will be available in Windows 11 shows when the upgrade is offered.  This is, in my opinion, another instance where how Microsoft has chosen to phrase something makes it appear to be much more substantial than it actually is, so off I went to do research. My conclusion is that it's highly doubtful that these features that are no longer available will be of concern to virtually anyone, or that they're even what one would consider a "feature."  But you need not believe me, but read for yourself.  Straight from Microsoft:  https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/answers/questions/609748/some-windows-10-features-aren39t-available-in-wind.html.  Toward the end of that reference, a link to the actual list of those features:  https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11-specifications#table3.

In addition, Joseph Lee has written an incredibly detailed message regarding Windows 11 on the Windows Access with Screen Readers Group, and I encourage our members to read it in whatever size chunks you can digest at one time, but to go through it all as time allows:  Windows 11 advisory letter for screen reader users, early 2022 edition: Windows 11 deployment, changes from Windows 10 to 11, updated screen reader compatibility and other FAQ's (groups.io)

The long and the short of it is that my standard advice about upgrading to a new feature update or version of Windows applies:
1. There is no need to rush it.  Let sufficient time pass for the initial growing pains of every version of Windows get shaken out.

2. Make sure that whatever assistive technologies you use have been stated as being compatible with Windows 11.

3. Don't resist upgrading to Windows 11 because Windows 10 will remain in support until October 2025 if you have Windows 11 compatible hardware.  Had Microsoft not put in place specific hardware requirements for Windows 11 that even many recently manufactured machines that run Windows 10 cannot meet, Windows 10 would be being phased out much sooner than it is.  There is benefit to being a part of a transition when you're going along with a large number of others at the same time.

4. Windows 11 started out its development life intended to be Windows 10, Version 21H2, well before the decision to spin off Windows 11 was made.  While there are changes, anyone familiar with Windows 10 will feel very comfortable with Windows 11, as the vast majority of what most of us do on a routine basis remains the same under both.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


locked control names

Don H
 

When I tab through all the areas of my desktop i hear for example Start Button. Is there a way to change this from within NVDA to say Button Start instead of what is now saying Start Button?
Thanks


Re: Add-on Updater and Windows App Essentials 22.02 released #addonrelease

Louise Pfau
 

Hi.  I had no problem downloading either of the add-on files by pressing ENTER while focused on the links.  I did have trouble activating the "Save as" split button though, and I'm not sure what finally worked.  I tried navigating to the button by using TAB and SHIFT+TAB while on the "Downloads" page, and pressing both ENTER and SPACE multiple times.  I'm using NVDA 2021.3.1 with Microsoft Edge.

Louise


Re: NVDA Crashes on launch, log:OSError: [WinError 193]

Armando L. Vias
 

I sometimes get the same error message as well.

On Jan 29, 2022, at 4:23 PM, bpurvis@... wrote:

Hi Tyler
Thanks for the reply. 

When I launch ndvaHelperRemoteLoarder the following popup window appears.
Title: nvdaHelperRemote (injection_terminate)
Body: Error waiting for the local thread to die, already dead or not responding.
Option Button: OK


Re: NVDA Crashes on launch, log:OSError: [WinError 193]

bpurvis@...
 

HI Quentin
Email has been sent. Thanks.

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