Date   

Re: Another annoyance that can't be turned off

Gene
 

I'm perfectly willing to consider reasons people think the sound is a good idea.  I even said at the outset that I was writing in part to see what people think. 


Having said that, adding a sound like this, I think, may annoy a lot of people and there should be a logical and clear way to turn it off.  There isn't now. 


I've never seen this discussed, but I suspect there are enough users who don't want the screen-reader to make any sounds that there should be a no sound option in general settings.


Gene

On 2/3/2022 10:02 AM, Robin Frost wrote:

Hi,

Gene said:

"And why have this sound in the first place?  It tells us nothing of any use.  The start menu has been used for over a decade
with no one feeling a need for such a sound." 
I find this assertion truly troubling.

What if for instance the existence of such was thought about to aid those who might use NVDA but might also have some other disabilities like those who might struggle with language processing or might have what some refer to as auditory dyslexia. I.E. verbal information is often scrambled by the time it gets to their brains. Thus a simple sound to indicate something might work better for them than a verbal cue.

Just because something night not seem useful to me I always try to keep in mind that it may be of significant value and helpfulness to someone else.

Further, I don't imagine that in the case of a highly specialized piece of software such as NVDA meant for a very targeted audience things are added simply on a whim or for the purposes of just being gimmicky.

Just my $0.02 no one asked for.

Take good care.

Robin


On 2/3/2022 9:12 AM, Gene wrote:

That's good to know but who would think to look in object presentation?  It seems to me that placing the setting there is a real stretch of logic, perhaps tangentially accurate but useless to the typical user.  There should be a setting in general settings, where I looked that simply says, no sound or sounds, however it might be worded.   And why have this sound in the first place?  It tells us nothing of any use.  The start menu has been used for over a decade with no one feeling a need for such a sound. 


Gene

On 2/3/2022 4:37 AM, hurrikennyandopo ... wrote:

Hi


I am guessing you a talking about the following.


Press the windows key and type in  say a letter or 2 so it brings up some search suggestions which makes a whirl sound?


If you look under object presentation it can be turned off there look for the following called Play a sound when auto-suggestions appear


If un checked there will be no sound.



Gene nz


.

On 3/02/2022 11:28 pm, Gene wrote:

I'm thinking of opening a Github ticket about this.  I'm discussing it here to see what people think and because others who are annoyed by this new form of useless noise will know how I stopped it. 


I don't know just when this was introduced, but somewhere in the last two full versions, it evidently was.  I hadn't updated NVDA for awhile but I decided to now.  When I used the start menu, I heard a new whooshing sound when suggestions opened and when they closed.  I didn't know if this was some new Windows sound so I tested with my older portable version.  There was no sound.


I found nothing doing a Google search.  I solved the problem by changing the wav extension for the suggestions opened and closed files.  There is no way to turn these sounds off in the user interface. 


I fail to see what possible useful purpose they serve.  Are people really so incompetent that they need a sound to tell them when start menu results begin to be read? 


Please devise some better system for deciding when something should be added.  Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.


Gene


locked Re: control names

 

On Thu, Feb 3, 2022 at 10:07 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

I think we aree getting confused here Brian.

 

Redefining the order of information read on the screen, doesn’t need to be processed by a dictionary.

-
No, Steve, I'm not getting confused.  I listed two separate things.

I think NVDA dictionary processing, which moves through from beginning to end of the entire dictionary, and where something substituted by "entry 5" can be later substituted again by "entry 7," then that substitution for the substitution can again be substituted by "entry 23," is insane.  I know of no other dictionary processing for speech to work this way.

What makes sense, to me, is that once you hit a case where "word X" is replaced by "word Y" the processing stops and "word Y" is passed to the synthesizer.

It should never be that "word X" is replaced by "word Y", "word Y" is now being used as "the original," and being passed along the rest of the dictionary for processing and it could be replaced later by "word Z," lather, rinse, repeat.  I've seen (or heard) for myself what madness this can and does cause.  Quite a while back when this was being discussed on this very group Quentin Christiansen gave an excellent, and clearly intentionally engineered, example of where this can lead that he sent to me privately, and which I had his permission to share, which I did in message  back in March of 2021.
 
I still maintain that what can happen is just insane.  But, I'm not the one in charge of NVDA dictionary processing and, heaven only knows, there could be users out there who have structured their dictionaries to rely on the exact side effect I think is insane.  I just deal with it.
--

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The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Re: Another annoyance that can't be turned off

Brian Moore
 

Actually, it is super useful imho. Sometimes, particularly on my work computer, those suggestions take time to come up so it is helpful to know when they appear


Contact me on skype: brian.moore
follow me on twitter:
http://www.twitter.com/bmoore123
On 2022-02-03 5:28 a.m., Gene wrote:

I'm thinking of opening a Github ticket about this.  I'm discussing it here to see what people think and because others who are annoyed by this new form of useless noise will know how I stopped it. 


I don't know just when this was introduced, but somewhere in the last two full versions, it evidently was.  I hadn't updated NVDA for awhile but I decided to now.  When I used the start menu, I heard a new whooshing sound when suggestions opened and when they closed.  I didn't know if this was some new Windows sound so I tested with my older portable version.  There was no sound.


I found nothing doing a Google search.  I solved the problem by changing the wav extension for the suggestions opened and closed files.  There is no way to turn these sounds off in the user interface. 


I fail to see what possible useful purpose they serve.  Are people really so incompetent that they need a sound to tell them when start menu results begin to be read? 


Please devise some better system for deciding when something should be added.  Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.


Gene


Re: Another annoyance that can't be turned off

Sarah k Alawami
 

No, you force your opinion on others, or at least it’s implied, your tone is rather abrupt, worse than mine at times, all the time actually?

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 3, 2022 7:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Another annoyance that can't be turned off

 

If I state something strongly and others disagree, that's fine.  That's one of the points of the list.  I didn't respond to anyone by telling them they shouldn't want the sound.  Others responding, depending on their responses, may make a case for the sound remaining or not remaining. 

 

Gene


Re: Another annoyance that can't be turned off

Robin Frost
 

Hi,

Gene said:

"And why have this sound in the first place?  It tells us nothing of any use.  The start menu has been used for over a decade
with no one feeling a need for such a sound." 
I find this assertion truly troubling.

What if for instance the existence of such was thought about to aid those who might use NVDA but might also have some other disabilities like those who might struggle with language processing or might have what some refer to as auditory dyslexia. I.E. verbal information is often scrambled by the time it gets to their brains. Thus a simple sound to indicate something might work better for them than a verbal cue.

Just because something night not seem useful to me I always try to keep in mind that it may be of significant value and helpfulness to someone else.

Further, I don't imagine that in the case of a highly specialized piece of software such as NVDA meant for a very targeted audience things are added simply on a whim or for the purposes of just being gimmicky.

Just my $0.02 no one asked for.

Take good care.

Robin


On 2/3/2022 9:12 AM, Gene wrote:

That's good to know but who would think to look in object presentation?  It seems to me that placing the setting there is a real stretch of logic, perhaps tangentially accurate but useless to the typical user.  There should be a setting in general settings, where I looked that simply says, no sound or sounds, however it might be worded.   And why have this sound in the first place?  It tells us nothing of any use.  The start menu has been used for over a decade with no one feeling a need for such a sound. 


Gene

On 2/3/2022 4:37 AM, hurrikennyandopo ... wrote:

Hi


I am guessing you a talking about the following.


Press the windows key and type in  say a letter or 2 so it brings up some search suggestions which makes a whirl sound?


If you look under object presentation it can be turned off there look for the following called Play a sound when auto-suggestions appear


If un checked there will be no sound.



Gene nz


.

On 3/02/2022 11:28 pm, Gene wrote:

I'm thinking of opening a Github ticket about this.  I'm discussing it here to see what people think and because others who are annoyed by this new form of useless noise will know how I stopped it. 


I don't know just when this was introduced, but somewhere in the last two full versions, it evidently was.  I hadn't updated NVDA for awhile but I decided to now.  When I used the start menu, I heard a new whooshing sound when suggestions opened and when they closed.  I didn't know if this was some new Windows sound so I tested with my older portable version.  There was no sound.


I found nothing doing a Google search.  I solved the problem by changing the wav extension for the suggestions opened and closed files.  There is no way to turn these sounds off in the user interface. 


I fail to see what possible useful purpose they serve.  Are people really so incompetent that they need a sound to tell them when start menu results begin to be read? 


Please devise some better system for deciding when something should be added.  Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.


Gene


locked Re: control names

Sarah k Alawami
 

Yep I can customize this on the other OS I use as well. I don't, but it is there for anyone, you can even turn off the name of any controls as well to hear nothing when tabbing etc. I love don't like it, depends on my needs at that time.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rui Fontes
Sent: Thursday, February 3, 2022 7:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] control names

And even in TalkBack, the Android screen reader...


Rui Fontes


Às 15:01 de 03/02/2022, Steve Nutt escreveu:
Hi Gene,

This is a preference that people have. I like it as is, but some people want to hear the control name first, before the text. This should be available in NVdA, but it isn't. It is in JAWS and Supernova and indeed I believe it's even in Narrator.

All the best

Steve

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-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 30 January 2022 02:13
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] control names

Unless there is an add-on I am not familiar with, there is no setting to say the kind of control first. You might be able to change this in the speech dictionary. Why do you want to make such a change. It is less efficient to hear the word button before what it is.


Gene

On 1/29/2022 6:11 PM, Don H wrote:
When I tab through all the areas of my desktop i hear for example
Start Button. Is there a way to change this from within NVDA to say
Button Start instead of what is now saying Start Button?
Thanks














Re: Another annoyance that can't be turned off

Gene
 

If others disagree, that's fine.  But I disagree that stating strong opinions isn't a good idea.  It depends what you are discussing.  And if people disagree, that doesn't make me wrong.  There may be many people who have strong feelings about something who agree with me.  In such cases, discussion may lead to some sort of approach that is better than the one currently being taken. 


for example, in this case, the discussion has caused me to think of a way to improve the situation I hadn't thought of at the outset and which I wrote about earlier. 


While you might say the sound question is a preference, people have all sorts of strong opinions about preferences and products often take them into account. 


Gene

On 2/3/2022 9:48 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Thu, Feb 3, 2022 at 10:38 AM, Gene wrote:
If I state something strongly and others disagree, that's fine.
-
Gene, you need to learn that stating opinions, even strongly held ones, as absolutes is just plain foolish.  It is incredibly off-putting to a large number of people.

And I know whereof I speak, because I used to do precisely what you do, and was told, directly, on many occasions, that it actually makes those who might see things your way resist because they are not absolutist.

But your opinion, as stated, as soon as exception is taken, is wrong.  All it takes is a single counterexample to falsify any argument.
 
--

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The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Re: Another annoyance that can't be turned off

Sarah k Alawami
 

I don’t get this sound when I open my start menu and search.  And if I do I’m used to it, this lets me know quickly that there is something there, for, when I make a mistake, I might not hear that sound. I hear it in settings and explorer.exe as well.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 3, 2022 2:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Another annoyance that can't be turned off

 

I'm thinking of opening a Github ticket about this.  I'm discussing it here to see what people think and because others who are annoyed by this new form of useless noise will know how I stopped it. 

 

I don't know just when this was introduced, but somewhere in the last two full versions, it evidently was.  I hadn't updated NVDA for awhile but I decided to now.  When I used the start menu, I heard a new whooshing sound when suggestions opened and when they closed.  I didn't know if this was some new Windows sound so I tested with my older portable version.  There was no sound.

 

I found nothing doing a Google search.  I solved the problem by changing the wav extension for the suggestions opened and closed files.  There is no way to turn these sounds off in the user interface. 

 

I fail to see what possible useful purpose they serve.  Are people really so incompetent that they need a sound to tell them when start menu results begin to be read? 

 

Please devise some better system for deciding when something should be added.  Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

 

Gene


Re: Another annoyance that can't be turned off

 

On Thu, Feb 3, 2022 at 10:38 AM, Gene wrote:
If I state something strongly and others disagree, that's fine.
-
Gene, you need to learn that stating opinions, even strongly held ones, as absolutes is just plain foolish.  It is incredibly off-putting to a large number of people.

And I know whereof I speak, because I used to do precisely what you do, and was told, directly, on many occasions, that it actually makes those who might see things your way resist because they are not absolutist.

But your opinion, as stated, as soon as exception is taken, is wrong.  All it takes is a single counterexample to falsify any argument.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Re: Ad-ins

 

The easiest starting point is the NVDA Add-Ons Directory.  And make sure that you use the dropdown for Compatible from NVDA version in addition to your other search criteria and select 2021.1 if you only want add-ons compatible with 2021.1 and later releases.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Re: Another annoyance that can't be turned off

Gene
 

If I state something strongly and others disagree, that's fine.  That's one of the points of the list.  I didn't respond to anyone by telling them they shouldn't want the sound.  Others responding, depending on their responses, may make a case for the sound remaining or not remaining. 


Gene

On 2/3/2022 9:30 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Thu, Feb 3, 2022 at 09:12 AM, Gene wrote:
It tells us nothing of any use.
-
Gene,

Several people have already stated, clearly, that it is of use to them.

Your assertions because things are not "of use" to you that they are "nothing of any use" is one of the most annoying things you do.  And you do it again, and again, and again, and again.

Your opinion does not hold sway over NVDA and its developers.  Just like I mentioned to someone else moments ago:  Deal with it!

These complaints sound like something from petulant children.  Not each and every feature of each and every piece of software you use is going to meet your personal preferences no matter what those happen to be.  And a great many of them (but not this one) will NOT be customizable.

I do not know where the idea has arizen that any complex piece of software is supposed to fit any individual user like a custom-tailored suit has arisen, but it's always been patently false.

Some things can be customized, some can't.  And some things are, relatively speaking, easy to change, some aren't.  But in the end no piece of software is being made for you, and you alone, unless you make it.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Re: Google Docs and Browse Mode

 

I wonder if something weird is going on with Google Docs itself.

I was just trying to help someone out who was trying to read a PDF file using Google Docs and the original is about 150 pages in length, which is not "immensely large" for a PDF.  But when you open it in Google Docs, only roughly half of the pages load, and then it stops.  It opens fine in regular PDF reading programs, and even in Word 2016.

I can't imagine this having been the default behavior in Google Docs for any period of time without a big stink being made about it, but I don't use Google Docs online editing often enough to know.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


Re: Another annoyance that can't be turned off

 
Edited

On Thu, Feb 3, 2022 at 09:12 AM, Gene wrote:
It tells us nothing of any use.
-
Gene,

Several people have already stated, clearly, that it is of use to them.

Your assertions because things are not "of use" to you that they are "nothing of any use" is one of the most annoying things you do.  And you do it again, and again, and again, and again.

Your opinion does not hold sway over NVDA and its developers.  Just like I mentioned to someone else moments ago:  Deal with it!

These complaints sound like something from petulant children.  Not each and every feature of each and every piece of software you use is going to meet your personal preferences no matter what those happen to be.  And a great many of them (but not this one) will NOT be customizable.

I do not know where the idea has arisen that any complex piece of software is supposed to fit any individual user like a custom-tailored suit, but it's always been patently false.

Some things can be customized, some can't.  And some things are, relatively speaking, easy to change, some aren't.  But in the end no piece of software is being made for you, and you alone, unless you make it.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


locked Re: control names

 

On Thu, Feb 3, 2022 at 10:12 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
Stop making excuses for NVDA’s inflexibility in this instance.
-
Stop whining about trivialities.  These kinds of complaints sound like children who don't get exactly what they want.

In plainer language:  Deal with it!
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


locked Re: control names

Steve Nutt
 

It’s called flexibility.

 

I’ll never use NVDA as my primary screen reader, while it lacks such basic controls.

 

Heck, you can’t even turn off blank line reading without an add-on.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 30 January 2022 18:40
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] control names

 

On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 01:18 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

I don't understand attitude that every isolated user request is supposed to translate into product change.  It has never been this way, ever, for anything, nor should it be.

-
By the way, even with the above having been said, there's definitely nothing wrong with asking for changes.  That's how certain types of progress have been made.

My beef is with the implied attitude that, "Because someone asked for it, that means it should be given heavy weight and should cause change."  For anything that one user might want, there are often thousands that don't.  Developers of any complex piece of software have to balance competing interests from various demographs within their user base as a matter of course when making decisions.

To quote the Rolling Stones, "You can't always get whatcha want, but you get whatcha need!"  But you'll never get either if you never ask for anything.
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Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


locked Re: control names

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Brian,

 

Stop making excuses for NVDA’s inflexibility in this instance.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 30 January 2022 18:19
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] control names

 

On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 12:22 PM, Rui Fontes wrote:

But, if it is possible to NV Access to decide the order, why not gave the same power to the user?

-
Because, quite simply, sometimes that does not make sense and, in my opinion, this is one of those times.

Not everything can be or should be user selectable.  Not everything can be or is user selectable, whether it's in NVDA or other things.

If someone is incapable of adjusting to something being announced as "{adjective} button" when it's landed on without using button navigation commands and the English language there are lots of bigger fish to fry than allowing that to be customized.

There are limited resources for development.  There are functions that certain very small groups may ask for, but that most of the user base does not.  Often what appears to be the most trivial of changes in program behavior does not involve trivial changes in the actual programming.

In the end, blind or not, we use the tools we have as they function.  We adjust our practices to the tools on many occasions, and do not expect the tools to change unless something causes a significant problem for the intended user base as a whole.  And when what's being asked for as far as changes really boils down to a change for personal preference, that's going to be very low on the priority list of development changes.

This is the very first request I've heard for this specific change in the years I've been around NVDA, and had never even known that Window Eyes could do this. Windows Eyes is gone, JAWS doesn't appear to do it, either, so that tells you that "demand" for this is from a very small contingent.

I don't understand attitude that every isolated user request is supposed to translate into product change.  It has never been this way, ever, for anything, nor should it be.
--

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The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

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locked Re: control names

Rui Fontes
 

And even in TalkBack, the Android screen reader...


Rui Fontes


Às 15:01 de 03/02/2022, Steve Nutt escreveu:

Hi Gene,

This is a preference that people have. I like it as is, but some people want to hear the control name first, before the text. This should be available in NVdA, but it isn't. It is in JAWS and Supernova and indeed I believe it's even in Narrator.

All the best

Steve

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-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 30 January 2022 02:13
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] control names

Unless there is an add-on I am not familiar with, there is no setting to say the kind of control first. You might be able to change this in the speech dictionary. Why do you want to make such a change. It is less efficient to hear the word button before what it is.


Gene

On 1/29/2022 6:11 PM, Don H wrote:
When I tab through all the areas of my desktop i hear for example
Start Button. Is there a way to change this from within NVDA to say
Button Start instead of what is now saying Start Button?
Thanks













locked Re: control names

Steve Nutt
 

I think we aree getting confused here Brian.

 

Redefining the order of information read on the screen, doesn’t need to be processed by a dictionary.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 30 January 2022 05:03
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] control names

 

On Sat, Jan 29, 2022 at 11:58 PM, Gene wrote:

it was definable in Window-eyes.

-
The following is not aimed at you, Gene, but at the fact you stated above:  So what?

There are bad design decisions all the time in myriad pieces of software.  Spreading them around is not a good idea.

If between what I gave the demonstration for and Joseph explained in depth with regard to "how things work under the hood" is not enough to make the wisdom of what Window Eyes allowed questionable, nothing will.

I wouldn't endorse spreading NVDA's method of continuing processing of a dictionary after the first match and replacement has made, passing the replacement along for further matching and replacement, to other software, either.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 


locked Re: control names

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Joseph,

 

So why do all other screen readers allow you to change the order of label and control?

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: 30 January 2022 04:55
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] control names

 

Hi all,

Brian's reasons are very convincing. Now let me give you a more convincing reason:

Short answer: Don, I'm sorry, but your suggestion cannot become reality without "warping reality itself."

Explanation: internally, NVDA uses several functions to obtain control properties such as name (label), role, state, selection status, among other things. These functions pass around two things:

  • Object properties: a dictionary of property names and their current (or sometimes, cached) values. For example, one of the properties is "role", which records NVDA's understanding of the role of the object (as reported by accessibility API's).
  • Speech sequence: object properties are then sequenced to give you the speech you hear, typically in the following order: name, role, custom role text 9if defined by contrls and web documents), state, description, value, table coordinate information (if appropriate), and other properties. Speech sequences are stored as a list of strings and are added (concatenated) together to present control information in a variety of forms, including speech and braille.

As Brian observed, the words "start button" carries two control properties: label (Start) and role (button). In reality, the Start button includes other properties, but to NVDA, what's more important in this case are label and role. The process involved in NVDA saying "Start button" is:

  1. NVDA notices that you have moved system focus to a button named "Start".
  2. NVDA will create an internal representation of this control and ask accessibility API's for information such as label and role. NVDA gathers other things such as button location, but these are not important.
  3. NVDA will represent object properties in a format that can be understood by various output processors. This is when object properties dictionary is passed to speech, braille, and other output modules.
  4. The speech output processor will construct a speech sequence based on object properties given. The sequence will contain the terms "name: Start" and "role: button" (at a high-level, but it is represented differently internally). This sequence is then gathered and added together to produce the words "Start button".
  5. Similarly, braille output processor will format these properties for display on a braille display, except role names are shortened. As a result, braille users will see "Start btn" on their displays.

Now what will it take to "warp reality?" I'll leave that up to you (hint: it isn't easy not just because you need to test a lot, but also thanks to philosophical discussions). Until next time...

P.S. I feel that, lately, I've become some kind of a historian or something. If only I can travel back to the 1980's (Stranger Things, anyone?).

Cheers,

Joseph


locked Re: control names

Steve Nutt
 

Ah this is different. I agree they shouldn’t be dictionary processed, but I do think that the order of information given should be user definable.

 

All the best


Steve

 

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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 30 January 2022 03:58
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] control names

 

I've just proven my theory about control text not being sent through the dictionary processing wrong.

If you want to see "fun with dictionary replacement" for the start button, try putting this in the temporary dictionary, the part before the pipe character being the match afterward the replacement.

start button|button start
start|begin
button|control

then route to the start button in the taskbar.  Then have NVDA read the following sentence:

The start buttion is one of the primary controls of Windows.

This is why I don't think:
1. OS controls should have their names dictionary processed.
2. That the dictionary processing should continue after a match has been made.  On match, substitute, then drop out.  Don't process the substitute against the remainder of the dictionary.

-------
If you used the temporary dictionary, if you restart NVDA, all of the above is gone, which is a good thing.
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Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The instinctive need to be the member of a closely-knit group fighting for common ideals may grow so strong that it becomes inessential what these ideals are.

       ~ Konrad Lorenz (1903-1989)

 

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