Date   

Re: A very slightly revised object navigation tutorial

Gene
 

This is the third one.  I doubt there will be more.  But it would be a good idea to have it hosted somewhere where new versions could replace the old ones using the same link.


If anyone who hosts tutorials developed by various people wishes, its fine with me if they host this one.  People might find it who visit the site and are looking around.


I'll talk with you if I need such a service.


Thank you.


Gene

On 2/24/2022 4:29 PM, Luke Davis wrote:
Gene wrote:

I am releasing a new version of the tutorial.  The changes are very minor.
Gene

I don't want to detract from your valuable work in any way, or offer any discouragement. In fact the opposite--I think my suggestion below, if implemented, would improve access to your work.

Wouldn't it make more sense to put this (and documents like it) on a web page, and update that? Then just re-post the URL when you make changes?
That seems preferable to having a dozen or so versions of it floating around in the archives to confuse people. (Between you posting it and others posting it)

As a single example: I have kept this, each time you have posted it, in my NVDA help folder, in case someone needs it at some point. Each time you have posted a revision (and if I recall it was three times in one day at one point), I have had to save the new one, then go back and find the old one and delete that, to make sure I had only the most current copy.

I'm not trying to detract any from your excellent contributions, just pointing out that this is a rather inefficient distribution mechanism.

If you don't have a website, talk to me off list and I'm sure we can figure something out; I have plenty of server capacity and domain names available.

But that aside, you could even host them in a reasonable text form on your GitHub account, or make a tinyurl to a dropbox shared file or the like. With which things I would also be happy to help you if desired.

Plenty of options that do not require multiple versions being posted to the list.

Luke




Re: A very slightly revised object navigation tutorial

Luke Davis
 

Gene wrote:

I am releasing a new version of the tutorial.  The changes are very minor. 
Gene

I don't want to detract from your valuable work in any way, or offer any discouragement. In fact the opposite--I think my suggestion below, if implemented, would improve access to your work.

Wouldn't it make more sense to put this (and documents like it) on a web page, and update that? Then just re-post the URL when you make changes?
That seems preferable to having a dozen or so versions of it floating around in the archives to confuse people. (Between you posting it and others posting it)

As a single example: I have kept this, each time you have posted it, in my NVDA help folder, in case someone needs it at some point. Each time you have posted a revision (and if I recall it was three times in one day at one point), I have had to save the new one, then go back and find the old one and delete that, to make sure I had only the most current copy.

I'm not trying to detract any from your excellent contributions, just pointing out that this is a rather inefficient distribution mechanism.

If you don't have a website, talk to me off list and I'm sure we can figure something out; I have plenty of server capacity and domain names available.

But that aside, you could even host them in a reasonable text form on your GitHub account, or make a tinyurl to a dropbox shared file or the like. With which things I would also be happy to help you if desired.

Plenty of options that do not require multiple versions being posted to the list.

Luke


locked Re: Admin's Note: Community Letter #adminnotice

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Matthew,


I too am praying for peace in the Ucrane. My heart goes out to those poor people in that nation.


Rosemarie



On 2/24/2022 1:18 PM, matthew dyer wrote:

Hi,

 

 

Amen!  Prair is something that we need at this point.  Ucrane is a Christion nation.  I pray that god will bring  piece to all invaulved. 

 

Matthew

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Lino Morales
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2022 1:43 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Note: Community Letter #adminnotice

 

All I have to say about all this. Putan and all of our world leaders need to be saved by the blood of Jesus Christ the only begotten son of my papa God. Ban me off this list if you wish.

On 2/24/2022 1:33 PM, Angela Delicata wrote:

Leaving the logic of the sides, we should understand the origin of this war, analyzing it, understanding it, starting, for example, with some questions.
Where was the West when children lived in basements in the Donbass villages?  Where was it in the summer of 2014, when the Donetsk and Lugansk regions were subjected to air raids or on May 2, when the Nazis of Pravy Sektor carried out the slaughter in the Odessa House of Syndicates, breaking bones and burning alive those who demonstrated for a federal system in Donbass?  Where was it  when the leader of a party with the Nazi wolf tooth emblem became president of the Ukrainian parliament?

I am against war and imperialism, from both sides. I wish peace and cooperation amongst all populations. 

Angela from Italy

 

Il 24/02/2022 16:26, Nimer Jaber ha scritto:

Hello everyone,

 

First, if you are in or around the Ukraine, you are in my thoughts, and our community stands with you in whatever way we can. I am truly sorry for all that is being perpetrated against your nation. Please do what you can to stay safe, and reach out to nvda+owner@nvda.groups.io if there is anything you need, or if you just need to talk. This goes for anybody, but doubly for those dealing with present hardship.

 

I wrote this post earlier today, and believe that it is worth sharing here, as I do believe it impacts all of us. This is not intended to be a divisive post, and if you disagree with its content, please reach out to me off list.

 

I know that times right now may be a struggle for many of you, as it is for me. I know the World is in an uncertain place. Some are dealing with grief and loss, others with war, and still others with loneliness, anxiety, etc. Many have stressful jobs, some don't have enough to meet their needs, and others are just uncertain whether continuing to be here is even worth it.

 

In many ways, we are more connected than ever before. But that also can create more isolation as well. We are also being bombarded with so much stimuli... So many ads, so many brands, so many news stories about places thousands of miles away, so much negativity, so much division... It's ironic that we've used that ability to be connected to share all the negativity and terrible happenings of the World. Many of us internalize all of that, and don't know where to turn, how to be most effective in helping, seeing as there is just so much need.

 

Please reach out for those who can be there for you, embrace the humanity that is in each of us, and let's all do what we can to make this time a bit easier for one another. Focus on those around you, those you Love, your family, your neighbors. Some of us have gotten away from the idea of a village, gotten away from being acquainted with our neighbors. Some are frightened that their neighbor might be the next murderer... After all, if we turn on the TV, all we see is the terrible violence happening all around us, and not so close to us.

 

If there is anything I can do for you, please reach out, and I will see what I can do. Thank you to each of you, for allowing me to get to know you, to be or have been part of your life, for being a member of a group that I moderate or own. If times are difficult now, they will look brighter, especially if we can get past all of that which divides us, and unify around our humanity and Love of one another.

 

--

Best,

Nimer Jaber

Check out and subscribe to BlindTechAdventures in podcast audio form on YouTube for the latest happenings in tech.

 

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

Thank you, and have a great day!


locked Re: Admin's Note: Community Letter #adminnotice

matthew dyer
 

Hi,

 

 

Amen!  Prair is something that we need at this point.  Ucrane is a Christion nation.  I pray that god will bring  piece to all invaulved. 

 

Matthew

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Lino Morales
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2022 1:43 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Note: Community Letter #adminnotice

 

All I have to say about all this. Putan and all of our world leaders need to be saved by the blood of Jesus Christ the only begotten son of my papa God. Ban me off this list if you wish.

On 2/24/2022 1:33 PM, Angela Delicata wrote:

Leaving the logic of the sides, we should understand the origin of this war, analyzing it, understanding it, starting, for example, with some questions.
Where was the West when children lived in basements in the Donbass villages?  Where was it in the summer of 2014, when the Donetsk and Lugansk regions were subjected to air raids or on May 2, when the Nazis of Pravy Sektor carried out the slaughter in the Odessa House of Syndicates, breaking bones and burning alive those who demonstrated for a federal system in Donbass?  Where was it  when the leader of a party with the Nazi wolf tooth emblem became president of the Ukrainian parliament?

I am against war and imperialism, from both sides. I wish peace and cooperation amongst all populations. 

Angela from Italy

 

Il 24/02/2022 16:26, Nimer Jaber ha scritto:

Hello everyone,

 

First, if you are in or around the Ukraine, you are in my thoughts, and our community stands with you in whatever way we can. I am truly sorry for all that is being perpetrated against your nation. Please do what you can to stay safe, and reach out to nvda+owner@nvda.groups.io if there is anything you need, or if you just need to talk. This goes for anybody, but doubly for those dealing with present hardship.

 

I wrote this post earlier today, and believe that it is worth sharing here, as I do believe it impacts all of us. This is not intended to be a divisive post, and if you disagree with its content, please reach out to me off list.

 

I know that times right now may be a struggle for many of you, as it is for me. I know the World is in an uncertain place. Some are dealing with grief and loss, others with war, and still others with loneliness, anxiety, etc. Many have stressful jobs, some don't have enough to meet their needs, and others are just uncertain whether continuing to be here is even worth it.

 

In many ways, we are more connected than ever before. But that also can create more isolation as well. We are also being bombarded with so much stimuli... So many ads, so many brands, so many news stories about places thousands of miles away, so much negativity, so much division... It's ironic that we've used that ability to be connected to share all the negativity and terrible happenings of the World. Many of us internalize all of that, and don't know where to turn, how to be most effective in helping, seeing as there is just so much need.

 

Please reach out for those who can be there for you, embrace the humanity that is in each of us, and let's all do what we can to make this time a bit easier for one another. Focus on those around you, those you Love, your family, your neighbors. Some of us have gotten away from the idea of a village, gotten away from being acquainted with our neighbors. Some are frightened that their neighbor might be the next murderer... After all, if we turn on the TV, all we see is the terrible violence happening all around us, and not so close to us.

 

If there is anything I can do for you, please reach out, and I will see what I can do. Thank you to each of you, for allowing me to get to know you, to be or have been part of your life, for being a member of a group that I moderate or own. If times are difficult now, they will look brighter, especially if we can get past all of that which divides us, and unify around our humanity and Love of one another.

 

--

Best,

Nimer Jaber

Check out and subscribe to BlindTechAdventures in podcast audio form on YouTube for the latest happenings in tech.

 

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

Thank you, and have a great day!


Re: Problem with Windows calculator

 

Hi,

Windows Calculator can be in one of the following modes:

  1. Standard calculator
  2. Scientific calculator
  3. Programming calculator
  4. Graphing calculator
  5. Unit and currency converter
  6. Date calculator

The issues outlined in this thread affect standard and scientific calculator modes the most, especially scientific calculator (upon further investigation). Other modes such as currency and unit converter are not affected.

Cheers,

Joseph


locked Re: Admin's Note: Community Letter #adminnotice

Lino Morales <linomorales001@...>
 

All I have to say about all this. Putan and all of our world leaders need to be saved by the blood of Jesus Christ the only begotten son of my papa God. Ban me off this list if you wish.

On 2/24/2022 1:33 PM, Angela Delicata wrote:

Leaving the logic of the sides, we should understand the origin of this war, analyzing it, understanding it, starting, for example, with some questions.
Where was the West when children lived in basements in the Donbass villages?  Where was it in the summer of 2014, when the Donetsk and Lugansk regions were subjected to air raids or on May 2, when the Nazis of Pravy Sektor carried out the slaughter in the Odessa House of Syndicates, breaking bones and burning alive those who demonstrated for a federal system in Donbass?  Where was it  when the leader of a party with the Nazi wolf tooth emblem became president of the Ukrainian parliament?

I am against war and imperialism, from both sides. I wish peace and cooperation amongst all populations. 

Angela from Italy


Il 24/02/2022 16:26, Nimer Jaber ha scritto:
Hello everyone,

First, if you are in or around the Ukraine, you are in my thoughts, and our community stands with you in whatever way we can. I am truly sorry for all that is being perpetrated against your nation. Please do what you can to stay safe, and reach out to nvda+owner@nvda.groups.io if there is anything you need, or if you just need to talk. This goes for anybody, but doubly for those dealing with present hardship.

I wrote this post earlier today, and believe that it is worth sharing here, as I do believe it impacts all of us. This is not intended to be a divisive post, and if you disagree with its content, please reach out to me off list.

I know that times right now may be a struggle for many of you, as it is for me. I know the World is in an uncertain place. Some are dealing with grief and loss, others with war, and still others with loneliness, anxiety, etc. Many have stressful jobs, some don't have enough to meet their needs, and others are just uncertain whether continuing to be here is even worth it.

In many ways, we are more connected than ever before. But that also can create more isolation as well. We are also being bombarded with so much stimuli... So many ads, so many brands, so many news stories about places thousands of miles away, so much negativity, so much division... It's ironic that we've used that ability to be connected to share all the negativity and terrible happenings of the World. Many of us internalize all of that, and don't know where to turn, how to be most effective in helping, seeing as there is just so much need.

Please reach out for those who can be there for you, embrace the humanity that is in each of us, and let's all do what we can to make this time a bit easier for one another. Focus on those around you, those you Love, your family, your neighbors. Some of us have gotten away from the idea of a village, gotten away from being acquainted with our neighbors. Some are frightened that their neighbor might be the next murderer... After all, if we turn on the TV, all we see is the terrible violence happening all around us, and not so close to us.

If there is anything I can do for you, please reach out, and I will see what I can do. Thank you to each of you, for allowing me to get to know you, to be or have been part of your life, for being a member of a group that I moderate or own. If times are difficult now, they will look brighter, especially if we can get past all of that which divides us, and unify around our humanity and Love of one another.

--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

Check out and subscribe to BlindTechAdventures in podcast audio form on YouTube for the latest happenings in tech.

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

Thank you, and have a great day!


locked Re: Admin's Note: Community Letter #adminnotice

Angela Delicata
 

Leaving the logic of the sides, we should understand the origin of this war, analyzing it, understanding it, starting, for example, with some questions.
Where was the West when children lived in basements in the Donbass villages?  Where was it in the summer of 2014, when the Donetsk and Lugansk regions were subjected to air raids or on May 2, when the Nazis of Pravy Sektor carried out the slaughter in the Odessa House of Syndicates, breaking bones and burning alive those who demonstrated for a federal system in Donbass?  Where was it  when the leader of a party with the Nazi wolf tooth emblem became president of the Ukrainian parliament?

I am against war and imperialism, from both sides. I wish peace and cooperation amongst all populations. 

Angela from Italy


Il 24/02/2022 16:26, Nimer Jaber ha scritto:

Hello everyone,

First, if you are in or around the Ukraine, you are in my thoughts, and our community stands with you in whatever way we can. I am truly sorry for all that is being perpetrated against your nation. Please do what you can to stay safe, and reach out to nvda+owner@nvda.groups.io if there is anything you need, or if you just need to talk. This goes for anybody, but doubly for those dealing with present hardship.

I wrote this post earlier today, and believe that it is worth sharing here, as I do believe it impacts all of us. This is not intended to be a divisive post, and if you disagree with its content, please reach out to me off list.

I know that times right now may be a struggle for many of you, as it is for me. I know the World is in an uncertain place. Some are dealing with grief and loss, others with war, and still others with loneliness, anxiety, etc. Many have stressful jobs, some don't have enough to meet their needs, and others are just uncertain whether continuing to be here is even worth it.

In many ways, we are more connected than ever before. But that also can create more isolation as well. We are also being bombarded with so much stimuli... So many ads, so many brands, so many news stories about places thousands of miles away, so much negativity, so much division... It's ironic that we've used that ability to be connected to share all the negativity and terrible happenings of the World. Many of us internalize all of that, and don't know where to turn, how to be most effective in helping, seeing as there is just so much need.

Please reach out for those who can be there for you, embrace the humanity that is in each of us, and let's all do what we can to make this time a bit easier for one another. Focus on those around you, those you Love, your family, your neighbors. Some of us have gotten away from the idea of a village, gotten away from being acquainted with our neighbors. Some are frightened that their neighbor might be the next murderer... After all, if we turn on the TV, all we see is the terrible violence happening all around us, and not so close to us.

If there is anything I can do for you, please reach out, and I will see what I can do. Thank you to each of you, for allowing me to get to know you, to be or have been part of your life, for being a member of a group that I moderate or own. If times are difficult now, they will look brighter, especially if we can get past all of that which divides us, and unify around our humanity and Love of one another.

--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

Check out and subscribe to BlindTechAdventures in podcast audio form on YouTube for the latest happenings in tech.

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

Thank you, and have a great day!


Re: Problem with Windows calculator

Dave Grossoehme
 

Hi Joseph:  Is the problem in all the different calculators, or just the general calculator?  Maybe I am seeing this differently.  By all calculators,, such as the scientific calculator etc.

Dave


On 2/21/2022 3:28 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi everyone,

Update: a huge progress has been made: I thought I can come up with a more intricate solution ( hard solution) by June, but it appears it is already done - I'm testing a harder solution internally and will deploy it to development snapshot users in March (delayed due to school and to test a potential change in NVDA that will impact Windows App Essentials add-on in a fundamental way). I do plan to make this solution available to stable channel subscribers sometime this year, and plan to propose it to NV Access for inclusion by around this time next year.

The solution is not that hard from code perspective, but nevertheless hard because of testing requirements. Basically, the solution involves telling NVDA to stay silent when you enter numbers in Calculator. Because I need to test other Calculator commands, it's taking a while to test all Calculator command combinations. This solution might be tweaked in the future in case Windows and/or the app changes.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: Item Number

Gene
 

In these instructions, new steps start on new lines.

Open object navigation with control NVDA key o. 

If that is inconvenient, open the NVDA menu.

Find and open settings.

Find and open object presentation.

You will be in the same place.

Tab to report position information, or similar wording. 

Uncheck the check box with the space bar. 

Tab to and activate the OK button.


Gene

On 2/24/2022 4:36 AM, H l wrote:

Hey everyone,

 

Is there a way to stop NVDA speaking or showing item number? I find that just gets in the way. I’m also not able for some reason to use the routing buttons on the braille display to get to the cell I want.

 

Tanks,

Harmony.


Re: NVDA Comparative tutorial with JAWS

Tony Ballou
 

Hi,


This book may be the closest thing to what you're asking about.  It was written by one of our fellow list comrades. 


http://carroll.org/the%20windows%20screen%20reader%20primer/


tony

On 2/24/2022 4:47 AM, Ketan Kothari wrote:

Dear Friends,

 

Has anyone tried producing a comparative tutorial of NVDA with JAWS.  What I mean is that there are some concepts such JAWS cursor, PC cursor etc. in JAWS and object navigation in NVDA.  How does one use either in a given situation?  I think this will also help in increasing usage of NVDA.  Please help.

 

With best wishes,

 

Ketan

 

Ketan Kothari

Mob: +919987550614

Mob:  +917021054612

Twitter: twitter.com/muktaketan

Facebook: muktaketan@...

 


Re: A very slightly revised object navigation tutorial

Gene
 

Thank you.  I think object navigation is either not taught or not well taught in general.  I don't know how the NVDA training material teaches it but it is my impression that in general, it is taught relying a lot on description and not on concrete do this and do that demonstrations which, in my opinion, are very important in teaching it.  It is a conceptual framework which I think is important to have most people experience to learn it.  I learned it mainly by experimenting after seeing enough explanation to have some idea what I was doing but I didn't understand it until I tried different things.


Gene

On 2/24/2022 9:59 AM, Rick Alfaro wrote:
Gene, very nice job. Your tutorial on this subject was very clear and concise. With regard to NVDA, object navigation has always been difficult to get my head around and has always kept me from using NVDA more frequently. This tutorial for some reason just made it click for me finally. Thanks much.





Warmest regards

Rick Alfaro

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2022 8:25 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] A very slightly revised object navigation tutorial

I am releasing a new version of the tutorial. The changes are very minor. They are not to correct errors, but I hope the slight changes will add to clarity.


The changes are as follows:

I explain that in the are you sure dialog of word pad, you can move to the right as much as you want and go in a circle. You can't move left. This is not how moving right and left by object usually works. You usually hear no next when you move right to the last object and no previous when you move left to the first object.


I thought that should be stated so that those experimenting moving by object in this dialog would understand why they can't move left and that you can move right as many times as you want around the dialog and how this is different than expected.


I also slightly changed and added a bit of wording when showing how to see if an object has more content than one line. I did this because it may slightly improve clarity but there is no error that I am correcting.


Here is what I hope will be the last release and I think it will be unless I get suggestions for improvement that I implement.


Gene


This tutorial will teach how to use object navigation. Rather than
discussing what an object is to any extent, I believe the best way to
teach most people about how to work with objects is to present examples
for people to perform and discussions of those examples. I shall
describe a bit about the organization of objects to provide a framework,
but the real understanding will be experiential, from performing the
examples and from the user's moving around once he/she knows how.

I don't know a technical definition of an object. I've seen such
definitions but they do little to promote practical understanding. I am
usually very interested in and recognize the importance of understanding
terms but this is an exception. If you are curious, you may wish to
pursue the subject of what an object is more definitionally and
technically.

Though this may not be technically a good definition, I'll say that an
object is a thing like a document or a button. A document can be very
large, thus an example of a very large object. A button is small and
buttons are objects, thus an example of a small object.

Objects are organized in hierarchies, as you move down an object
hierarchy, each level down is more specific. For example, and this
doesn't literally represent what you will find as you move down, but it
gives you an idea of a hierarchy, let's say you start in the desktop
object. From where you are in that object, you move down to the notepad
window object. You will be able to move down to it if Notepad is
opened. then move further down and get to an object containing menu
icons in Notepad. If you are in the right place in the object and move
down further, you may be in the document window, which would contain a
document. As I said, a document can be a very large object, or a small
one, depending on the size of the document. If you try to move further
down, you won't be able to. You have reached the end of the hierarchy,
the lowest level.

A more or less useful analogy might be an arm, a wrist, a hand, and the
thumb and fingers on the hand.

The arm is the most general and the highest in our analogy to objects.
It is used to move through areas of space to position the wrist and
hand. The wrist is more specific to finer control of the hand. It is
the next object down in the hierarchy. Then there is the hand, used for
all sorts of finer manipulations of objects. And finally, the thumb and
fingers, the lowest objects in the hierarchy.

I chose the hand and its fingers very intentionally. The hand has five
objects in the lowest category, each attached to the hand. The thumb and
fingers are all separate objects and all at the same lowest level. They
are all connected to the hand, which is an object that is in the higher
level.

Depending on where you are as you move through the hand object, you can
move down into a finger and do what that finger can do. Rather than
explain further, I'll now proceed to working with concrete items,
explaining where I think it is useful or important, but the main
emphasis will be on working with things and deriving an understanding in
that way.

I shall use desktop layout commands. I don’t use nor know the laptop
layout commands. Someone may want to provide them.

We will use WordPad for our examples at this point.

First, issue the command numpad insert plus numpad 1 until you hear no
previous review mode. That is to make sure you didn’t use screen review
and forget to go back. Object navigation is the default but I want to
make sure everyone is using it.

Now, do the following:
Open WordPad. Type a bit of text. Now issue the close command. You are
in the are you sure dialog.
Press the following keys and listen to all speech.
Numpad 8.
Numpad 7.
Numpad 9.
Numpad 8 reads the current line in the object you are in. You hear save.
Numpad 7 moves back one line in the object.
You hear top, save.
That’s because there is no previous line.
Numpad 9 moves you to the next line in the object. You hear bottom,
save because there is no next line.
This is a small object. It is only one button. Button isn’t announced
for some reason but it is a save button.
Now, let’s move to the next object to the right. Issue the command
numpad insert plus numpad 6.
You have now moved to the next object. It is a bit of text, the do you
want to save question. For some reason, this dialog doesn’t work as
expected when moving to next and previous objects. Usually, if you move
to the next and previous objects, you will get to the last one in the
direction you are moving. At that point, you will hear either no
previous or no next. In Wordpad, for some reason, you can move to the
right all you want and go around in a circle. You can't move left at
all. This is not how moving by object usually works but if you try
moving to the left, you will see that you can't. . I have almost never
seen this behavior but that is how Wordpad is and it is why we aren't
going to demonstrate moving to the left in Wordpad.

To move to the right by object the command is numpad insert+numpad 6.
To move to the left, the command is numpad insert+numpad 4.
Each time you move to another object, you can use the review keys I
showed you earlier to see if you can move around the object and to read
the current line. That is, numpad 7, back line, numpad 8, say current
line, numpad 9, forward one line. That is true whether you move by
object to the right or by object to the left.
It is also true for moving by object up or down the higherarchy. We'll
get to how to do that shortly. Any time you move to an object, it is true.
If you were using screen review, you would use the same commands to
review the screen, numpad 7, 8, and 9. You would be moving in the
screen, not specifically in an object.

At times objects are small, as these are, at times they are very large.

To see a very large or a larger object, finish closing WordPad, then
open a large document in WordPad. Either that or open WordPad and type
a number of lines of text.
If you use numpad 9 to move through the document, you will find that you
can move through the entire document. The entire document is one object.
If you were using screen review, you would only be able to move as far
up or down as the screen that is now visible.

The command to go into screen review, if you want to experiment, is
numpad insert plus numpad 7. There may be another mode, document
review, but keep moving until you get to screen review. Don’t forget to
go back to object review when you are finished in screen review. If you
don’t, some things you do may not work as expected.

There are times when you can see things using screen review that you
can’t using object review. There are times when the opposite is true.
One isn’t better or more useful than the other, though one may be of
more use to a person, depending on how they use a computer, in other
words, what programs they run and perhaps, how they work with certain
programs.

Now that we have demonstrated how to move from one object to another on
the same level, let's see how to move from a higher object to a lower
and to move in reverse. We shall combine that with moving in objects to
see how you can get information about what is in an object.

Let's continue to use Wordpad. Open it and write some text, even
something short like This is demonstration text would be fine.
You are now in the object that is the document.
The command to move up in the object hierarchy is numpad insert+numpad 8.
To move down to a lower object, the command is numpad insert+numpad 2.
Try moving down using numpad insert+numpad 2. You will hear "No objects
inside."
Remember the analogy of the hand. You are already in the document.
There is no reason to have any objects inside or lower than that. You
are already working, to use our analogy, with your fingers.
Let's move up to the hand, Remember that as you move up, each object
becomes more general. Before you move up, use numpad insert+t to read
the title bar.
Now, move up. The command again is numpad insert+numpad 8.

Notice that you hear the same thing both times with one difference. You
hear the word window when you move by object.
You are now in the object that is the window above the document, and the
title of the document is spoken, or just saying what the object is if
you haven't given the document a title.

Issue the command numpad 8. You will hear the current line in the
object read. Now,, let's see if there is more content in the object.
Move back with numpad 7. You will hear top, and then the same thing you
heard before. You are on the first line, what NVDA is calling the top.
Start moving to the right, using numpad 9. I don't know technically
what this is, but it may look like a tool bar. I would expect to hear
things like this moving in a tool bar. Tool bars show commands. The
purpose is to show commonly used commands and not have the sighted user
have to look through menus or ribbons to find them. This structure has
a number of things grouped on each line. Tool bars may just have one
thing on a line. The principle is the same, whatever this is, technically.

Since there is more than one thing on a line, we'll use the read current
item on the line. The command is numpad 5. Read previous item is
numpad 4 and next item is numpad 6.
As you read in these ways, you can hear the commands one at a time. You
are located at the command. You move to the item you hear announced.
Move back and forth using numpad 7, 8, and 9 and 4, 5, and 6 to help get
the commands in mind.
To move by and speak a single character, the commands are numpad 1, 2,
and 3. So, the pattern is, single character, numpad 1, 2, and 3.

Single item such as word, numpad 4, 5, and 6.

Line, numpad 7, 8, and 9.

Now, let's move up to the next higher object, by analogy, the wrist.
The command, again, is numpad insert numpad 8, the same command you
used to move up before.
You will hear, desktop window. You have moved to the desktop and are
completely out of Wordpad. So, to be analogically correct, we are in
the arm, not the wrist. Don't worry if we follow the analogy perfectly,
the idea is the important thing.


Suppose you want to return to the Wordpad object. If you use the move
down command here, you will likely not move back into Wordpad. You
would expect to, since that is where you came from but you have moved to
the desktop window and may now be in a different place. An easy way to
move back is to alt tab, then release alt and tab, then alt tab again.
You have moved out of Wordpad and back in. By default, NVDA follows
where you are when moving using system navigation. You left Wordpad
when moving up by object, but you were still in the program in the
system. Alt tabbing, releasing alt and tab, then alt tabbing again
moved you out of Wordpad, the object navigator followed to your new
location, then it moved back to Wordpad again, when the system focus
moved there again. You are in the document again. System focus is in
the document where we started.

Knowing this will save you lots of frustration if you move somewhere you
don't want to be and you want to get back. If there is only one Window
opened, go to the desktop and then alt tab into the program you are
working with again. It doesn't matter how you move out and back.

Now, let's see how you can see information by moving into an object, by
moving down from the object you are into another object. We already
have moved up through objects.
For this demonstration, open Notepad.
Type a little text such as, This is demonstration text.
You are now in the document, the entire document is one object.
Move to the object to the left with numpad insert+numpad4.
You will hear Application menu and some explanation of what commands are
there.
If you use numpad 8, you will hear repeated what you heard before.
If you use numpad 7, you will hear top. There is no previous line. Use
numpad 9 and you hear bottom. There is no next line.
Move to the next object to your left. You hear close, button, closes
the window.
That is an object and there is nothing else in that object as you can
determine as you did before.
Continue to move left by object, numpad insert+numpad 4. You will hear
most of the items you hear when you open the application menu in a
program with alt space. Each item is a single object.
Remember that objects can be very large, an entire document, or very
small, as here.
Move right again until you get back to application menu bar.
Is there an object below this?
Use numpad insert+numpad 2 and you will move to an object inside or
below this one.
You will hear file submenu, alt f.
This is one object.
If you move right by object, you will move through the menu items you
usually get to with alt and moving with the right arrow.
Move left by object to get back to file.
Try moving down to see if you can move into an object containing the
file commands such as open, new, etc. You can't.
So you open the object instead.
there are two ways to open an object.
Use the command numpad insert+numpad enter. Numpad enter is the long
key at the bottom right of the numpad. Hold numpad insert and while
doing so, tap numpad enter.
Do so now.
You are now in the file menu. Each file item is an object. Start
moving right by object and you will move through the menu items you
usually move through using down arrow.
To take an action, use the same command you used to open the menu,
numpad insert+numpad enter.
Move to open and try it. The open dialog comes up.
You have done exactly the same thing you usually do another way. Since
you don't want to open anything, close the dialog with escape. You are
now back in the main window and so is the object navigator. Remember
that by default, the object navigator moves to where the system focus
moves to when it changes.


I'll explain the other way to open an object a little later.


You wouldn't ordinarily use object navigation in Notepad because you can
do everything from the keyboard. Object navigation is for times when
you can't do something, including getting information you want.

Let's have one more example. This time, its how to get information when
that is all you want to do.
As you may recall, you are back in the document window of Notepad.
Move right by object.
You get to the status bar.
You hear it announced.
But you need to move into the object to hear the information.
If you move down, numpad insert+numpad2, you will hear the information
in the status bar read.
That is the object inside the object that says status bar.

We are close to the end of the tutorial but I'll show you two other things.
First, the other way to take an action such as open an object. Instead
of using the command I showed you before, you can do the same thing
using the virtual mouse.
Route the mouse to where you are with numpad insert+numpad slash.
Then left click it by just tapping numpad slash by itself.
You have now taken the same action you did before.
I'm telling you both methods so you may use the one you want and so that
if one method doesn't work where you are you can try the other. They
usually both work.

And for our last demonstration, I'll tell you something that appears to
be little understood for its value.
the command is often thought of as a read dialog command. It does much
more.
It is insert b. You can use either insert.
It reads all controls in the active window. It may read more such as
text as well but not necessarily. With all the objects that may be in a
window and with objects being inside of objects, you may find something
you are looking for by using insert b that you aren't finding by
manually looking. Sometimes, you may want to use the command out of
curiosity to see things that are in a window just to see what is there.
At times, its interesting to see things like tool bars that a sighted
person would use and that you wouldn't generally use. Sometimes, you
may find a feature you didn't know about that you might want to use.
You can probably use it from the keyboard, though you may need to use it
with object navigation. You may be able to use screen review butt often
not.

If you stop speech with control when you're on an item, the object
navigator will be on the item. If you stop it a little before or after,
the object navigator will not be on it, but it will be close. But
because of how objects are organized, you may find it easier to issue
the command again, hear things read, and now that you know what you are
looking for, press control as the item is read.

I hope you find this tutorial useful. If things seem unclear,
experimenting by moving around programs and looking at the descriptions
of moving through programs and moving through the ones I've discussed
may make things more clear.

I think that object navigation is something that is puzzling to most
people but as they work with it, with good instruction, it becomes
clear. I hope you find this to be good instruction.











Re: A very slightly revised object navigation tutorial

Rick Alfaro
 

Gene, very nice job. Your tutorial on this subject was very clear and concise. With regard to NVDA, object navigation has always been difficult to get my head around and has always kept me from using NVDA more frequently. This tutorial for some reason just made it click for me finally. Thanks much.





Warmest regards

Rick Alfaro

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2022 8:25 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] A very slightly revised object navigation tutorial

I am releasing a new version of the tutorial. The changes are very minor. They are not to correct errors, but I hope the slight changes will add to clarity.


The changes are as follows:

I explain that in the are you sure dialog of word pad, you can move to the right as much as you want and go in a circle. You can't move left. This is not how moving right and left by object usually works. You usually hear no next when you move right to the last object and no previous when you move left to the first object.


I thought that should be stated so that those experimenting moving by object in this dialog would understand why they can't move left and that you can move right as many times as you want around the dialog and how this is different than expected.


I also slightly changed and added a bit of wording when showing how to see if an object has more content than one line. I did this because it may slightly improve clarity but there is no error that I am correcting.


Here is what I hope will be the last release and I think it will be unless I get suggestions for improvement that I implement.


Gene


This tutorial will teach how to use object navigation. Rather than
discussing what an object is to any extent, I believe the best way to
teach most people about how to work with objects is to present examples
for people to perform and discussions of those examples. I shall
describe a bit about the organization of objects to provide a framework,
but the real understanding will be experiential, from performing the
examples and from the user's moving around once he/she knows how.

I don't know a technical definition of an object. I've seen such
definitions but they do little to promote practical understanding. I am
usually very interested in and recognize the importance of understanding
terms but this is an exception. If you are curious, you may wish to
pursue the subject of what an object is more definitionally and
technically.

Though this may not be technically a good definition, I'll say that an
object is a thing like a document or a button. A document can be very
large, thus an example of a very large object. A button is small and
buttons are objects, thus an example of a small object.

Objects are organized in hierarchies, as you move down an object
hierarchy, each level down is more specific. For example, and this
doesn't literally represent what you will find as you move down, but it
gives you an idea of a hierarchy, let's say you start in the desktop
object. From where you are in that object, you move down to the notepad
window object. You will be able to move down to it if Notepad is
opened. then move further down and get to an object containing menu
icons in Notepad. If you are in the right place in the object and move
down further, you may be in the document window, which would contain a
document. As I said, a document can be a very large object, or a small
one, depending on the size of the document. If you try to move further
down, you won't be able to. You have reached the end of the hierarchy,
the lowest level.

A more or less useful analogy might be an arm, a wrist, a hand, and the
thumb and fingers on the hand.

The arm is the most general and the highest in our analogy to objects.
It is used to move through areas of space to position the wrist and
hand. The wrist is more specific to finer control of the hand. It is
the next object down in the hierarchy. Then there is the hand, used for
all sorts of finer manipulations of objects. And finally, the thumb and
fingers, the lowest objects in the hierarchy.

I chose the hand and its fingers very intentionally. The hand has five
objects in the lowest category, each attached to the hand. The thumb and
fingers are all separate objects and all at the same lowest level. They
are all connected to the hand, which is an object that is in the higher
level.

Depending on where you are as you move through the hand object, you can
move down into a finger and do what that finger can do. Rather than
explain further, I'll now proceed to working with concrete items,
explaining where I think it is useful or important, but the main
emphasis will be on working with things and deriving an understanding in
that way.

I shall use desktop layout commands. I don’t use nor know the laptop
layout commands. Someone may want to provide them.

We will use WordPad for our examples at this point.

First, issue the command numpad insert plus numpad 1 until you hear no
previous review mode. That is to make sure you didn’t use screen review
and forget to go back. Object navigation is the default but I want to
make sure everyone is using it.

Now, do the following:
Open WordPad. Type a bit of text. Now issue the close command. You are
in the are you sure dialog.
Press the following keys and listen to all speech.
Numpad 8.
Numpad 7.
Numpad 9.
Numpad 8 reads the current line in the object you are in. You hear save.
Numpad 7 moves back one line in the object.
You hear top, save.
That’s because there is no previous line.
Numpad 9 moves you to the next line in the object. You hear bottom,
save because there is no next line.
This is a small object. It is only one button. Button isn’t announced
for some reason but it is a save button.
Now, let’s move to the next object to the right. Issue the command
numpad insert plus numpad 6.
You have now moved to the next object. It is a bit of text, the do you
want to save question. For some reason, this dialog doesn’t work as
expected when moving to next and previous objects. Usually, if you move
to the next and previous objects, you will get to the last one in the
direction you are moving. At that point, you will hear either no
previous or no next. In Wordpad, for some reason, you can move to the
right all you want and go around in a circle. You can't move left at
all. This is not how moving by object usually works but if you try
moving to the left, you will see that you can't. . I have almost never
seen this behavior but that is how Wordpad is and it is why we aren't
going to demonstrate moving to the left in Wordpad.

To move to the right by object the command is numpad insert+numpad 6.
To move to the left, the command is numpad insert+numpad 4.
Each time you move to another object, you can use the review keys I
showed you earlier to see if you can move around the object and to read
the current line. That is, numpad 7, back line, numpad 8, say current
line, numpad 9, forward one line. That is true whether you move by
object to the right or by object to the left.
It is also true for moving by object up or down the higherarchy. We'll
get to how to do that shortly. Any time you move to an object, it is true.
If you were using screen review, you would use the same commands to
review the screen, numpad 7, 8, and 9. You would be moving in the
screen, not specifically in an object.

At times objects are small, as these are, at times they are very large.

To see a very large or a larger object, finish closing WordPad, then
open a large document in WordPad. Either that or open WordPad and type
a number of lines of text.
If you use numpad 9 to move through the document, you will find that you
can move through the entire document. The entire document is one object.
If you were using screen review, you would only be able to move as far
up or down as the screen that is now visible.

The command to go into screen review, if you want to experiment, is
numpad insert plus numpad 7. There may be another mode, document
review, but keep moving until you get to screen review. Don’t forget to
go back to object review when you are finished in screen review. If you
don’t, some things you do may not work as expected.

There are times when you can see things using screen review that you
can’t using object review. There are times when the opposite is true.
One isn’t better or more useful than the other, though one may be of
more use to a person, depending on how they use a computer, in other
words, what programs they run and perhaps, how they work with certain
programs.

Now that we have demonstrated how to move from one object to another on
the same level, let's see how to move from a higher object to a lower
and to move in reverse. We shall combine that with moving in objects to
see how you can get information about what is in an object.

Let's continue to use Wordpad. Open it and write some text, even
something short like This is demonstration text would be fine.
You are now in the object that is the document.
The command to move up in the object hierarchy is numpad insert+numpad 8.
To move down to a lower object, the command is numpad insert+numpad 2.
Try moving down using numpad insert+numpad 2. You will hear "No objects
inside."
Remember the analogy of the hand. You are already in the document.
There is no reason to have any objects inside or lower than that. You
are already working, to use our analogy, with your fingers.
Let's move up to the hand, Remember that as you move up, each object
becomes more general. Before you move up, use numpad insert+t to read
the title bar.
Now, move up. The command again is numpad insert+numpad 8.

Notice that you hear the same thing both times with one difference. You
hear the word window when you move by object.
You are now in the object that is the window above the document, and the
title of the document is spoken, or just saying what the object is if
you haven't given the document a title.

Issue the command numpad 8. You will hear the current line in the
object read. Now,, let's see if there is more content in the object.
Move back with numpad 7. You will hear top, and then the same thing you
heard before. You are on the first line, what NVDA is calling the top.
Start moving to the right, using numpad 9. I don't know technically
what this is, but it may look like a tool bar. I would expect to hear
things like this moving in a tool bar. Tool bars show commands. The
purpose is to show commonly used commands and not have the sighted user
have to look through menus or ribbons to find them. This structure has
a number of things grouped on each line. Tool bars may just have one
thing on a line. The principle is the same, whatever this is, technically.

Since there is more than one thing on a line, we'll use the read current
item on the line. The command is numpad 5. Read previous item is
numpad 4 and next item is numpad 6.
As you read in these ways, you can hear the commands one at a time. You
are located at the command. You move to the item you hear announced.
Move back and forth using numpad 7, 8, and 9 and 4, 5, and 6 to help get
the commands in mind.
To move by and speak a single character, the commands are numpad 1, 2,
and 3. So, the pattern is, single character, numpad 1, 2, and 3.

Single item such as word, numpad 4, 5, and 6.

Line, numpad 7, 8, and 9.

Now, let's move up to the next higher object, by analogy, the wrist.
The command, again, is numpad insert numpad 8, the same command you
used to move up before.
You will hear, desktop window. You have moved to the desktop and are
completely out of Wordpad. So, to be analogically correct, we are in
the arm, not the wrist. Don't worry if we follow the analogy perfectly,
the idea is the important thing.


Suppose you want to return to the Wordpad object. If you use the move
down command here, you will likely not move back into Wordpad. You
would expect to, since that is where you came from but you have moved to
the desktop window and may now be in a different place. An easy way to
move back is to alt tab, then release alt and tab, then alt tab again.
You have moved out of Wordpad and back in. By default, NVDA follows
where you are when moving using system navigation. You left Wordpad
when moving up by object, but you were still in the program in the
system. Alt tabbing, releasing alt and tab, then alt tabbing again
moved you out of Wordpad, the object navigator followed to your new
location, then it moved back to Wordpad again, when the system focus
moved there again. You are in the document again. System focus is in
the document where we started.

Knowing this will save you lots of frustration if you move somewhere you
don't want to be and you want to get back. If there is only one Window
opened, go to the desktop and then alt tab into the program you are
working with again. It doesn't matter how you move out and back.

Now, let's see how you can see information by moving into an object, by
moving down from the object you are into another object. We already
have moved up through objects.
For this demonstration, open Notepad.
Type a little text such as, This is demonstration text.
You are now in the document, the entire document is one object.
Move to the object to the left with numpad insert+numpad4.
You will hear Application menu and some explanation of what commands are
there.
If you use numpad 8, you will hear repeated what you heard before.
If you use numpad 7, you will hear top. There is no previous line. Use
numpad 9 and you hear bottom. There is no next line.
Move to the next object to your left. You hear close, button, closes
the window.
That is an object and there is nothing else in that object as you can
determine as you did before.
Continue to move left by object, numpad insert+numpad 4. You will hear
most of the items you hear when you open the application menu in a
program with alt space. Each item is a single object.
Remember that objects can be very large, an entire document, or very
small, as here.
Move right again until you get back to application menu bar.
Is there an object below this?
Use numpad insert+numpad 2 and you will move to an object inside or
below this one.
You will hear file submenu, alt f.
This is one object.
If you move right by object, you will move through the menu items you
usually get to with alt and moving with the right arrow.
Move left by object to get back to file.
Try moving down to see if you can move into an object containing the
file commands such as open, new, etc. You can't.
So you open the object instead.
there are two ways to open an object.
Use the command numpad insert+numpad enter. Numpad enter is the long
key at the bottom right of the numpad. Hold numpad insert and while
doing so, tap numpad enter.
Do so now.
You are now in the file menu. Each file item is an object. Start
moving right by object and you will move through the menu items you
usually move through using down arrow.
To take an action, use the same command you used to open the menu,
numpad insert+numpad enter.
Move to open and try it. The open dialog comes up.
You have done exactly the same thing you usually do another way. Since
you don't want to open anything, close the dialog with escape. You are
now back in the main window and so is the object navigator. Remember
that by default, the object navigator moves to where the system focus
moves to when it changes.


I'll explain the other way to open an object a little later.


You wouldn't ordinarily use object navigation in Notepad because you can
do everything from the keyboard. Object navigation is for times when
you can't do something, including getting information you want.

Let's have one more example. This time, its how to get information when
that is all you want to do.
As you may recall, you are back in the document window of Notepad.
Move right by object.
You get to the status bar.
You hear it announced.
But you need to move into the object to hear the information.
If you move down, numpad insert+numpad2, you will hear the information
in the status bar read.
That is the object inside the object that says status bar.

We are close to the end of the tutorial but I'll show you two other things.
First, the other way to take an action such as open an object. Instead
of using the command I showed you before, you can do the same thing
using the virtual mouse.
Route the mouse to where you are with numpad insert+numpad slash.
Then left click it by just tapping numpad slash by itself.
You have now taken the same action you did before.
I'm telling you both methods so you may use the one you want and so that
if one method doesn't work where you are you can try the other. They
usually both work.

And for our last demonstration, I'll tell you something that appears to
be little understood for its value.
the command is often thought of as a read dialog command. It does much
more.
It is insert b. You can use either insert.
It reads all controls in the active window. It may read more such as
text as well but not necessarily. With all the objects that may be in a
window and with objects being inside of objects, you may find something
you are looking for by using insert b that you aren't finding by
manually looking. Sometimes, you may want to use the command out of
curiosity to see things that are in a window just to see what is there.
At times, its interesting to see things like tool bars that a sighted
person would use and that you wouldn't generally use. Sometimes, you
may find a feature you didn't know about that you might want to use.
You can probably use it from the keyboard, though you may need to use it
with object navigation. You may be able to use screen review butt often
not.

If you stop speech with control when you're on an item, the object
navigator will be on the item. If you stop it a little before or after,
the object navigator will not be on it, but it will be close. But
because of how objects are organized, you may find it easier to issue
the command again, hear things read, and now that you know what you are
looking for, press control as the item is read.

I hope you find this tutorial useful. If things seem unclear,
experimenting by moving around programs and looking at the descriptions
of moving through programs and moving through the ones I've discussed
may make things more clear.

I think that object navigation is something that is puzzling to most
people but as they work with it, with good instruction, it becomes
clear. I hope you find this to be good instruction.


locked Admin's Note: Community Letter #adminnotice

Nimer Jaber
 

Hello everyone,

First, if you are in or around the Ukraine, you are in my thoughts, and our community stands with you in whatever way we can. I am truly sorry for all that is being perpetrated against your nation. Please do what you can to stay safe, and reach out to nvda+owner@nvda.groups.io if there is anything you need, or if you just need to talk. This goes for anybody, but doubly for those dealing with present hardship.

I wrote this post earlier today, and believe that it is worth sharing here, as I do believe it impacts all of us. This is not intended to be a divisive post, and if you disagree with its content, please reach out to me off list.

I know that times right now may be a struggle for many of you, as it is for me. I know the World is in an uncertain place. Some are dealing with grief and loss, others with war, and still others with loneliness, anxiety, etc. Many have stressful jobs, some don't have enough to meet their needs, and others are just uncertain whether continuing to be here is even worth it.

In many ways, we are more connected than ever before. But that also can create more isolation as well. We are also being bombarded with so much stimuli... So many ads, so many brands, so many news stories about places thousands of miles away, so much negativity, so much division... It's ironic that we've used that ability to be connected to share all the negativity and terrible happenings of the World. Many of us internalize all of that, and don't know where to turn, how to be most effective in helping, seeing as there is just so much need.

Please reach out for those who can be there for you, embrace the humanity that is in each of us, and let's all do what we can to make this time a bit easier for one another. Focus on those around you, those you Love, your family, your neighbors. Some of us have gotten away from the idea of a village, gotten away from being acquainted with our neighbors. Some are frightened that their neighbor might be the next murderer... After all, if we turn on the TV, all we see is the terrible violence happening all around us, and not so close to us.

If there is anything I can do for you, please reach out, and I will see what I can do. Thank you to each of you, for allowing me to get to know you, to be or have been part of your life, for being a member of a group that I moderate or own. If times are difficult now, they will look brighter, especially if we can get past all of that which divides us, and unify around our humanity and Love of one another.

--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

Check out and subscribe to BlindTechAdventures in podcast audio form on YouTube for the latest happenings in tech.

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

Thank you, and have a great day!


Re: NVDA Comparative tutorial with JAWS

Chris Smart
 


A very slightly revised object navigation tutorial

Gene
 

I am releasing a new version of the tutorial.  The changes are very minor.  They are not to correct errors, but I hope the slight changes will add to clarity.


The changes are as follows:

I explain that in the are you sure dialog of word pad, you can move to the right as much as you want and go in a circle.  You can't move left.  This is not how moving right and left by object usually works.  You usually hear no next when you move right to the last object and no previous when you move left to the first object.


I thought that should be stated so that those experimenting moving by object in this dialog would understand why they can't move left and that you can move right as many times as you want around the dialog and how this is different than expected.


I also slightly changed and added a bit of wording when showing how to see if an object has more content than one line.  I did this because it may slightly improve clarity but there is no error that I am correcting.


Here is what I hope will be the last release and I think it will be unless I get suggestions for improvement that I implement.


Gene


This tutorial will teach how to use object navigation.  Rather than discussing what an object is to any extent, I believe the best way to teach most people about how to work with objects is to present examples for people to perform and discussions of those examples.  I shall describe a bit about the organization of objects to provide a framework, but the real understanding will be experiential, from performing the examples and from the user's moving around once he/she knows how.

I don't know a technical definition of an object.  I've seen such definitions but they do little to promote practical understanding.  I am usually very interested in and recognize the importance of understanding terms but this is an exception.  If you are curious, you may wish to pursue the subject of what an object is more definitionally and technically.

Though this may not be technically a good definition, I'll say that an object is a thing like a document or a button.  A document can be very large, thus an example of a very large object.  A button is small and buttons are objects, thus an example of a small object.

Objects are organized in hierarchies, as you move down an object hierarchy, each level down is more specific.  For example, and this doesn't literally represent what you will find as you move down, but it gives you an idea of a hierarchy, let's say you start in the desktop object.  From where you are in that object, you move down to the notepad window object.  You  will be able to move down to it if Notepad is opened.  then move further down and get to an object containing menu icons in Notepad.  If you are in the right place in the object and move down further, you may be in the document window, which would contain a document.  As I said, a document can be a very large object, or  a small one, depending on the size of the document.  If you try to move further down, you won't be able to. You have reached the end of the hierarchy, the lowest level.

A more or less useful analogy might be an arm, a wrist, a hand, and the thumb and fingers on the hand.

The arm is the most general and the highest in our analogy to objects.  It is used to move through areas of space to position the wrist and hand.  The wrist is more specific to finer control of the hand.  It is the next object down in the hierarchy.  Then there is the hand, used for all sorts of finer manipulations of objects.  And finally, the thumb and fingers, the lowest objects in the hierarchy.

I chose the hand and its fingers very intentionally.  The hand has five objects in the lowest category, each attached to the hand. The thumb and fingers are all separate objects and all at the same lowest level.  They are all connected to the hand, which is an object that is in the higher level.

Depending on where you are as you move through the hand object, you can move down into a finger and do what that finger can do. Rather than explain further, I'll now proceed to working with concrete items, explaining where I think it is useful or important, but the main emphasis will be on working with things and deriving an understanding in that way.

I shall use desktop layout commands.  I don’t use nor know the laptop layout commands.  Someone may want to provide them.

We will use WordPad for our examples at this point.

First, issue the command numpad insert plus numpad 1 until you hear no previous review mode.  That is to make sure you didn’t use screen review and forget to go back.  Object navigation is the default but I want to make sure everyone is using it.

Now, do the following:
Open WordPad.  Type a bit of text.  Now issue the close command. You are in the are you sure dialog.
Press the following keys and listen to all speech.
Numpad 8.
Numpad 7.
Numpad 9.
Numpad 8 reads the current line in the object you are in.  You hear save.
Numpad 7 moves back one line in the object.
You hear top, save.
That’s because there is no previous line.
Numpad 9 moves you to the next line in the object.  You hear bottom, save because there is no next line.
This is a small object.  It is only one button.  Button isn’t announced for some reason but it is a save button.
Now, let’s move to the next object to the right.  Issue the command numpad insert plus numpad 6.
You have now moved to the next object.  It is a bit of text, the do you want to save question.  For some reason, this dialog doesn’t work as expected when moving to next and previous objects.  Usually, if you move to the next and previous objects, you will get to the last one in the direction you are moving.  At that point, you will hear either no previous or no next.  In Wordpad, for some reason, you can move to the right all you want and go around in a circle.  You can't move left at all.  This is not how moving by object usually works but if you try moving to the left, you will see that you can't.  .  I have almost never seen this behavior but that is how Wordpad is and it is why we aren't going to demonstrate moving to the left in Wordpad.

To move to the right by object the command is numpad insert+numpad 6.  To move to the left, the command is numpad insert+numpad 4.
Each time you move to another object, you can use the review keys I showed you earlier to see if you can move around the object and to read the current line.  That is, numpad 7, back line, numpad 8, say current line, numpad 9, forward one line.  That is true whether you move by object to the right or by object to the left.
It is also true for moving by object up or down the higherarchy. We'll get to how to do that shortly.  Any time you move to an object, it is true.
If you were using screen review, you would use the same commands to review the screen, numpad 7, 8, and 9.  You would be moving in the screen, not specifically in an object.

At times objects are small, as these are, at times they are very large.

To see a very large or a larger object, finish closing WordPad, then open a large document in WordPad.  Either that or open WordPad and type a number of lines of text.
If you use numpad 9 to move through the document, you will find that you can move through the entire document.  The entire document is one object.
If you were using screen review, you would only be able to move as far up or down as the screen that is now visible.

The command to go into screen review, if you want to experiment, is numpad insert plus numpad 7.  There may be another mode, document review, but keep moving until you get to screen review. Don’t forget to go back to object review when you are finished in screen review.  If you don’t, some things you do may not work as expected.

There are times when you can see things using screen review that you can’t using object review.  There are times when the opposite is true.  One isn’t better or more useful than the other, though one may be of more use to a person, depending on how they use a computer, in other words, what programs they run and perhaps, how they work with certain programs.

Now that we have demonstrated how to move from one object to another on the same level, let's see how to move from a higher object to a lower and to move in reverse.  We shall combine that with moving in objects to see how you can get information about what is in an object.

Let's continue to use Wordpad.  Open it and write some text, even something short like This is demonstration text would be fine.
You are now in the object that is the document.
The command to move up in the object hierarchy is numpad insert+numpad 8.
To move down to a lower object, the command is numpad insert+numpad 2.
Try moving down using numpad insert+numpad 2.  You will hear "No objects inside."
Remember the analogy of the hand.  You are already in the document.  There is no reason to have any objects inside or lower than that.  You are already working, to use our analogy, with your fingers.
Let's move up to the hand, Remember that as you move up, each object becomes more general.  Before you move up, use numpad insert+t to read the title bar.
Now, move up.  The command again is  numpad insert+numpad 8.

Notice that you hear the same thing both times with one difference. You hear the word window when you move by object.
You are now in the object that is the window above the document, and the title of the document is spoken, or just saying what the object is if you haven't given the document a title.

Issue the command numpad 8.  You will hear the current line in the object read.  Now,, let's see if there is more content in the object.  Move back with numpad 7.  You will hear top, and then the same thing you heard before.  You are on the first line, what NVDA is calling the top.
Start moving to the right, using numpad 9.  I don't know technically what this is, but it may look like a tool bar.  I would expect to hear things like this moving in a tool bar.  Tool bars show commands. The purpose is to show commonly used commands and not have the sighted user have to look through menus or ribbons to find them.  This structure has a number of things grouped on each line.  Tool bars may just have one thing on a line.  The principle is the same, whatever this is, technically.

Since there is more than one thing on a line, we'll use the read current item on the line.   The command is numpad 5.  Read previous item is numpad 4 and next item is numpad 6.
As you read in these ways, you can hear the commands one at a time.  You are located at the command.  You move to the item you hear announced.
Move back and forth using numpad 7, 8, and 9 and 4, 5, and 6 to help get the commands in mind.
To move by and speak a single character, the commands are numpad 1, 2, and 3.  So, the pattern is, single character, numpad 1, 2, and 3.

Single item such as word, numpad 4, 5, and 6.

Line, numpad 7, 8, and 9.

Now, let's move up to the next higher object, by analogy, the wrist.  The command, again,  is numpad insert numpad 8, the same command you used to move up before.
You will hear, desktop window.  You have moved to the desktop and are completely out of Wordpad.  So, to be analogically correct, we are in the arm, not the wrist.  Don't worry if we follow the analogy perfectly, the idea is the important thing.


Suppose you want to return to the Wordpad object.  If you use the move down command here, you will likely not move back into Wordpad.  You would expect to, since that is where you came from but you have moved to the desktop window and may now be in a different place.  An easy way to move back is to alt tab, then release alt and tab, then alt tab again.  You have moved out of Wordpad and back in.  By default, NVDA follows where you are when moving using system navigation.  You left Wordpad when moving up by object, but you were still in the program in the system.  Alt tabbing, releasing alt and tab, then alt tabbing again moved you out of Wordpad, the object navigator followed to your new location, then it moved back to Wordpad again, when the system focus moved there again.  You are in the document again.  System focus is in the document where we started.

Knowing this will save you lots of frustration if you move somewhere you don't want to be and you want to get back.  If there is only one Window opened, go to the desktop and then alt tab into the program you are working with again.  It doesn't matter how you move out and back.

Now, let's see how you can see information by moving into an object, by moving down from the object you are into another object.  We already have moved up through objects.
For this demonstration, open Notepad.
Type a little text such as, This is demonstration text.
You are now in the document, the entire document is one object.
Move to the object to the left with numpad insert+numpad4.
You will hear Application menu and some explanation of what commands are there.
If you use numpad 8, you will hear repeated what you heard before.
If you use numpad 7, you will hear top.  There is no previous line.  Use numpad 9 and you hear bottom.   There is no next line.
Move to the next object to your left.  You hear close, button, closes the window.
That is an object and there is nothing else in that object as you can determine as you did before.
Continue to move left by object, numpad insert+numpad 4.  You will hear most of the items you hear when you open the application menu in a program with alt space.  Each item is a single object.
Remember that objects can be very large, an entire document, or very small, as here.
Move right again until you get back to application menu bar.
Is there an object below this?
Use numpad insert+numpad 2 and you will move to an object inside or below this one.
You will hear file submenu, alt f.
This is one object.
If you move right by object, you will move through the menu items you usually get to with alt and moving with the right arrow.
Move left by object to get back to file.
Try moving down to see if you can move into an object containing the file commands such as open, new, etc.  You can't.
So you open the object instead.
there are two ways to open an object.
Use the command numpad insert+numpad enter.  Numpad enter is the long key at the bottom right of the numpad.  Hold numpad insert and while doing so, tap numpad enter.
Do so now.
You are now in the file menu.  Each file item is an object.  Start moving right by object and you will move through the menu items you usually move through using down arrow.
To take an action, use the same command you used to open the menu, numpad insert+numpad enter.
Move to open and try it.   The open dialog comes up.
You have done exactly the same thing you usually do another way. Since you don't want to open anything, close the dialog with escape.  You are now back in the main window and so is the object navigator.  Remember that by default, the object navigator moves to where the system focus moves to when it changes.


I'll explain the other way to open an object a little later.


You wouldn't ordinarily use object navigation in Notepad because you can do everything from the keyboard.  Object navigation is for times when you can't do something, including getting information you want.

Let's have one more example.  This time, its how to get information when that is all you want to do.
As you may recall, you are back in the document window of Notepad.
Move right by object.
You get to the status bar.
You hear it announced.
But you need to move into the object to hear the information.
If you move down, numpad insert+numpad2, you will hear the information in the status bar read.
That is the object inside the object that says status bar.

We are close to the end of the tutorial but I'll show you two other things.
First, the other way to take an action such as open an object. Instead of using the command I showed you before, you can do the same thing using the virtual mouse.
Route the mouse to where you are with numpad insert+numpad slash.
Then left click it by just tapping numpad slash by itself.
You have now taken the same action you did before.
I'm telling you both methods so you may use the one you want and so that if one method doesn't work where you are you can try the other.  They usually both work.

And for our last demonstration, I'll tell you something that appears to be little understood for its value.
the command is often thought of as a read dialog command.  It does much more.
It is insert b.  You can use either insert.
It reads all controls in the active window.  It may read more such as text as well but not necessarily.  With all the objects that may be in a window and with objects being inside of objects, you may find something you are looking for by using insert b that you aren't finding by manually looking.  Sometimes, you may want to use the command out of curiosity to see things that are in a window just to see what is there.  At times, its interesting to see things like tool bars that a sighted person would use and that you wouldn't generally use.  Sometimes, you may find a feature you didn't know about that you might want to use.  You can probably use it from the keyboard, though you may need to use it with object navigation.  You may be able to use screen review butt often not.

If you stop speech with control when you're on an item, the object navigator will be on the item.  If you stop it a little before or after, the object navigator will not be on it, but it will be close.  But because of how objects are organized, you may find it easier to issue the command again, hear things read, and now that you know what you are looking for, press control as the item is read.

I hope you find this tutorial useful.  If things seem unclear, experimenting by moving around programs and looking at the descriptions of moving through programs and moving through the ones I've discussed may make things more clear.

I think that object navigation is something that is puzzling to most people but as they work with it, with good instruction, it becomes clear.  I hope you find this to be good instruction.


Re: NVDA Comparative tutorial with JAWS

Gene
 

To slightly change what I said and make it accurate, I realized when I looked at the tutorial again that I am not correcting errors, not even minor ones.  I am making two or three minor changes to, I hope, increase clarity but there are no errors.  I want to reassure those who have worked with the tutorial so far of that.


Gene

On 2/24/2022 6:36 AM, Gene wrote:

I don't think a comparative tutorial explaining how to use both screen-readers is necessary.  I think it should be done in instructional material to point out that screen review in NVDA, for example, is similar to usin g the JAWS cursor in what it does and that you use the numpad for screen-review in NVDA while in JAWS you use the navigation commands you use while in the PC cursor.  If the person knows the JAWS cursor, he will understand what is being said.  If not, it won't matter.  The point is that the person learn screen .review and what it is using NVDA.


The same is true for object navigation.


And speaking of object navigation, I just did a tutorial on object navigation whhich I sent to the list a number  of days ago.  I found one very minor mistake in describing a dialog being worked with and another minor mistake.  I'll correct them and send the tutorial again.  I'll explain the error and lack of clarification in detail when I send the tutorial again.  The mistakes are minor and may not affect anyone's understanding, who has used the tutorial so far, but they should be corrected. 


Gene

On 2/24/2022 3:47 AM, Ketan Kothari wrote:

Dear Friends,

 

Has anyone tried producing a comparative tutorial of NVDA with JAWS.  What I mean is that there are some concepts such JAWS cursor, PC cursor etc. in JAWS and object navigation in NVDA.  How does one use either in a given situation?  I think this will also help in increasing usage of NVDA.  Please help.

 

With best wishes,

 

Ketan

 

Ketan Kothari

Mob: +919987550614

Mob:  +917021054612

Twitter: twitter.com/muktaketan

Facebook: muktaketan@...

 


Re: NVDA Comparative tutorial with JAWS

Gene
 

I don't think a comparative tutorial explaining how to use both screen-readers is necessary.  I think it should be done in instructional material to point out that screen review in NVDA, for example, is similar to usin g the JAWS cursor in what it does and that you use the numpad for screen-review in NVDA while in JAWS you use the navigation commands you use while in the PC cursor.  If the person knows the JAWS cursor, he will understand what is being said.  If not, it won't matter.  The point is that the person learn screen .review and what it is using NVDA.


The same is true for object navigation.


And speaking of object navigation, I just did a tutorial on object navigation whhich I sent to the list a number  of days ago.  I found one very minor mistake in describing a dialog being worked with and another minor mistake.  I'll correct them and send the tutorial again.  I'll explain the error and lack of clarification in detail when I send the tutorial again.  The mistakes are minor and may not affect anyone's understanding, who has used the tutorial so far, but they should be corrected. 


Gene

On 2/24/2022 3:47 AM, Ketan Kothari wrote:

Dear Friends,

 

Has anyone tried producing a comparative tutorial of NVDA with JAWS.  What I mean is that there are some concepts such JAWS cursor, PC cursor etc. in JAWS and object navigation in NVDA.  How does one use either in a given situation?  I think this will also help in increasing usage of NVDA.  Please help.

 

With best wishes,

 

Ketan

 

Ketan Kothari

Mob: +919987550614

Mob:  +917021054612

Twitter: twitter.com/muktaketan

Facebook: muktaketan@...

 


Item Number

H l
 

Hey everyone,

 

Is there a way to stop NVDA speaking or showing item number? I find that just gets in the way. I’m also not able for some reason to use the routing buttons on the braille display to get to the cell I want.

 

Tanks,

Harmony.


NVDA Comparative tutorial with JAWS

Ketan Kothari
 

Dear Friends,

 

Has anyone tried producing a comparative tutorial of NVDA with JAWS.  What I mean is that there are some concepts such JAWS cursor, PC cursor etc. in JAWS and object navigation in NVDA.  How does one use either in a given situation?  I think this will also help in increasing usage of NVDA.  Please help.

 

With best wishes,

 

Ketan

 

Ketan Kothari

Mob: +919987550614

Mob:  +917021054612

Twitter: twitter.com/muktaketan

Facebook: muktaketan@...

 


Re: I have just released a new website where you can access various NVDA tutorials all in one place

Aravind R
 

nice work. thank you.
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On 24/02/2022, Sharad Koirala <shakoirala@...> wrote:
great.

On 2/24/22, Ranga Silva <rangarpsilva@...> wrote:
Great job and thanks dear






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Dr. Sharad Koirala
Lecturer
Department of Community Medicine
Gandaki Medical College, Pokhara, Nepal






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