Date   

Re: does nvda tell small caps?

 

On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 09:46 AM, Rui Fontes wrote:
Small caps is an attribute of the letter type...
-
Thanks.  When I open the full font dialog, which I virtually never do, I see it listed under the Effects section.

I don't think I've ever used this effect in all the years I've been using word, but once it's turned on I do see exactly what you mean and have seen it used.  I've generally stuck with the fonts that have this basic effect without turning it on, as there are a number of them where the lowercase letters are just smaller versions of the uppercase letters.  Another design arrow to add to my quiver.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 


Re: Exclamation mark

Gene
 

Have you worked in the ;punctuation/symbols dialog? 


Gene

On 3/2/2022 8:47 AM, Peter Beasley wrote:

I have tried all the various options in punctuation settings to try to get NVDA not to announce exclamation but nothing seems to work.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 


Exclamation mark

Peter Beasley
 

I have tried all the various options in punctuation settings to try to get NVDA not to announce exclamation but nothing seems to work.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 


Re: does nvda tell small caps?

Rui Fontes
 

Small caps is an attribute of the letter type...

Visually is like a capital letter but with the size of non capitalized letters...


You can set this attribute in the same place you set the underline, strike out and so on...


Rui Fontes


Às 14:34 de 02/03/2022, Brian Vogel escreveu:

I, and I am sure others, are not sure what you mean by "small caps."

A given letter is either capitalized (uppercase) or not (lowercase).  And acronyms can, of course, be words entirely in uppercase.

Are you asking whether you can make NVDA give a clear indication as to whether a given letter is uppercase/capital or not when reading letter by letter?
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 


Re: adding to default dictionary

Gene
 

As you arrow around in the add dialog, you will see a set of radio buttons.  Your choice is anywhere or whole word.  Use whole word.


Gene

On 3/2/2022 8:02 AM, Don H wrote:
Running latest released versions of Win 10 and NVDA.  I am adding a two letter combination to the default dictionary.  I only want to change how NVDA pronounces this two letter combination when it stands alone. However it is changing the pronouncioation of any word that contains this two letter combination. Is this typical or there a special way to enter such a entry in the dictionary.
I have tried entering a space before and after the original two letter entery in the dictionary to indicate the two letters should be changed only when they stand alone but this doesn't change the output.
Thanks




Re: does nvda tell small caps?

 

I, and I am sure others, are not sure what you mean by "small caps."

A given letter is either capitalized (uppercase) or not (lowercase).  And acronyms can, of course, be words entirely in uppercase.

Are you asking whether you can make NVDA give a clear indication as to whether a given letter is uppercase/capital or not when reading letter by letter?
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 


locked Re: A serious plea from a (now retiring) NVDA contributor: when developers ask people to fill out a GitHub template, developers really mean it

 

And I think that several things need pointing out:

1.  There is a huge difference between a bug report, which requires real specificity, and a feature request, which can be much broader.

2.  I have written a tutorial, and included MS-Word fillable-form templates, to make it easy for those who are new to the NVDA GitHub process to correctly fill out a bug report and submit it.  Here it is again:  Creating an Issue in GitHub for NVDA

3.  For a bug report, if you don't include as close to everything as you possibly can in that report, it is highly unlikely that the issue even can be addressed.  There is the rare occasion when an item, maybe 2, will be skipped, but it's rare.  The things being asked for are what form the basis for telling developers where to look and how to reproduce the issue you're having.  You can't fix what you can't reproduce.

4. There are plenty of occasions where what you think is a bug with NVDA is not.  The procedures asking that you restart your system, restart NVDA with Add-Ons disabled, and turn on logging and submit the log when neither of the previous two steps have resulted in an issue going away are also essential.  Some issues are directly related to the specific computer on which they're happening.

5. The folks at NVAccess should expect that feature requests will, by their nature, be broadly expressed and, on occasion, require follow-up with the person who submitted them.  This is the exact opposite of a bug report where the reporter should be expected to have supplied the exact information requested and performed the steps outlined as part of putting together a bug report.  These two types of issues are quite different where one gives broad brushstrokes and the other very precise "engineering drawings" because their respective purposes are quite different.  Those on both sides of both of these types of issue reports need to understand that.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 


does nvda tell small caps?

Aschalew Byness
 

Hi falks
does nvda tell small caps? how do I tell whether a word is in small caps?
Thanks


Re: adding to default dictionary

Tyler Spivey
 

Try changing the type to Whole word.

On 3/2/2022 6:02 AM, Don H wrote:
Running latest released versions of Win 10 and NVDA.  I am adding a two letter combination to the default dictionary.  I only want to change how NVDA pronounces this two letter combination when it stands alone. However it is changing the pronouncioation of any word that contains this two letter combination. Is this typical or there a special way to enter such a entry in the dictionary.
I have tried entering a space before and after the original two letter entery in the dictionary to indicate the two letters should be changed only when they stand alone but this doesn't change the output.
Thanks


adding to default dictionary

Don H
 

Running latest released versions of Win 10 and NVDA. I am adding a two letter combination to the default dictionary. I only want to change how NVDA pronounces this two letter combination when it stands alone. However it is changing the pronouncioation of any word that contains this two letter combination. Is this typical or there a special way to enter such a entry in the dictionary.
I have tried entering a space before and after the original two letter entery in the dictionary to indicate the two letters should be changed only when they stand alone but this doesn't change the output.
Thanks


Re: NVDA reading decorative images in ms Word, how to avoid it?

Jackie
 

I love you Brian V--thank you! Lol. For me, they were sometimes
absolutely critical, & I wish we had better tools to extract the
information they sometimes provide.

On 3/1/22, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 08:20 PM, Jackie wrote:


I think screen shots are not decorative.
-
I'm glad someone else said it, because I was thinking it.

Screen shots may, in many instances, not be able to be succinctly described
with ease, but they are not decorative in any meaningful sense.  And when
screen shots are included in technical publications, even if they can't be
succinctly described, I think it's helpful that they are actually described
as briefly as possible so that a blind reader is aware of what's in the
documentation that they may wish to point a sighted colleague to or ask a
sighted colleague about.

There are all sorts of purely decorative graphics, but screenshots are not
in that class.  They serve an illustrative purpose and their presence is
important to note.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my
responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
~ Commenter, *Evangelos* , in comments for
America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities (
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/08/opinion/spotify-joe-rogan-covid-free-speech.html
) ,
New York Times , February 8, 2022





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locked Re: A serious plea from a (now retiring) NVDA contributor: when developers ask people to fill out a GitHub template, developers really mean it

Gene
 

However, I think it should be pointed out that many people may not understand how to do it.  It is alien to what is usually done when filling out information or commenting on the Internet.  It took me perhaps fifteen or twenty minutes to figure it out.  This information should be given, I think, in the instructions about what should be done above the template, if those working on the page itself for NVDA can change what is written there. 


To fill out the template, you go to the start of the template and go into forms mode.  You won't be in the right place if you tab through the form until you are in tab mode and you should down arrow through it when you are in it.  I strongly recommend finding the instructions, then manually going into forms mode and down arrowing.  You will read the instructions and move through what is desired to be filled out, staying in forms mode.  You will hear  questions read and see blank lines where you write.  You read a question, down arrow to the blank line, and write what is asked for.  Then you continue to down arrow  and work until you have finished filling out the template. 


While this may be a separate issue from what you were writing about, I wonder if they are related.  Whether they are or not, knowing this may make it easier for some or many people to fill it out. 


It may have been the first time I submitted a feature request that I was asked in the comments to fill out the template.  That was my intention but I hadn't been able to figure out how to do so.  I then continued to try different things and I figured it out.  I have filled out the template since.  Its sort of like working with GMail in the standard view.  You move through items in forms mode you usually wouldn't.


Once you understand this, it takes a lot of the mystery out of submitting an issue or report.  It is not difficult once you understand this and perhaps a little about the organization of the pages and the site. 


Gene

On 3/2/2022 2:57 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hello all,

For folks affected by what’s going on in eastern Europe, my heart is with you.

Although I rarely write something like the following, please take it seriously as I’m going to talk about something that can become a problem if not addressed sooner:

People who have known me for a long time (for some of us, for almost two decades) know that I tend to be generous when responding to people and show effort to understand what’s going on. People also know that when I become angry, I can explode, sometimes violently. Unlike most times, however, tonight I’m writing with such an anger that I may need to explode before I sleep.

As a software engineer with a background in human communication, I know that communication plays a vital role in making engineering jobs easier, more effective, and efficient. One of those is filling out an issue or a feature request template, which exists to help engineers figure out and organize the big picture more quickly. While I and other engineers can understand that not everyone can fill out the given template, it can become a problem when we need to take more time to digest information, more so if it takes a while to “fill the puzzle” i.e. figure out what is going on.

After reading a GitHub issue submitted not long ago suggesting that NVDA should stay silent when adjusting volume, I decided to write a post regarding this, not only because people should consider this request, but also because this is one of those that can actually frustrate developers. As I said, I understand that not everyone can fil out the GitHub template for bug reports and/or feature requests, but it is one of those issues with missing puzzle pieces such as NVDA version, app version, and what not.

Therefore, I seriously plead with you (or rather, I should say, I beg you on bended knee with flames in my eyes) that when developers ask people to fill out the GitHub template, developers really mean it. As you browse GitHub issues for NVDA, you may come across similar comments from NV Access and other contributors about this. This is actually one of the possible reasons why a GitHub issue might be closed, more so if developers do not hear from submitters for a long time. To be honest with everyone, my tolerance (for me) is reaching its limit, and that’s how serious this is. While folks can say to relax, I am NOT relaxing because not completely filling out a GitHub template, designed to help you to think and organized, can have an impact on developer productivity. Some folks can say to show generosity, and that’s why I noted that not everyone can work with templates, but this is a matter of project reputation and long-term maintenance, which are some of the top pillars in project management. Therefore, I once again plead with you to fill out the GitHub template (hopefully, completely) for sake of people who will read what you are reporting.

Thank you.

Cheers (and with sadness),

Joseph


locked A serious plea from a (now retiring) NVDA contributor: when developers ask people to fill out a GitHub template, developers really mean it

 

Hello all,

For folks affected by what’s going on in eastern Europe, my heart is with you.

Although I rarely write something like the following, please take it seriously as I’m going to talk about something that can become a problem if not addressed sooner:

People who have known me for a long time (for some of us, for almost two decades) know that I tend to be generous when responding to people and show effort to understand what’s going on. People also know that when I become angry, I can explode, sometimes violently. Unlike most times, however, tonight I’m writing with such an anger that I may need to explode before I sleep.

As a software engineer with a background in human communication, I know that communication plays a vital role in making engineering jobs easier, more effective, and efficient. One of those is filling out an issue or a feature request template, which exists to help engineers figure out and organize the big picture more quickly. While I and other engineers can understand that not everyone can fill out the given template, it can become a problem when we need to take more time to digest information, more so if it takes a while to “fill the puzzle” i.e. figure out what is going on.

After reading a GitHub issue submitted not long ago suggesting that NVDA should stay silent when adjusting volume, I decided to write a post regarding this, not only because people should consider this request, but also because this is one of those that can actually frustrate developers. As I said, I understand that not everyone can fil out the GitHub template for bug reports and/or feature requests, but it is one of those issues with missing puzzle pieces such as NVDA version, app version, and what not.

Therefore, I seriously plead with you (or rather, I should say, I beg you on bended knee with flames in my eyes) that when developers ask people to fill out the GitHub template, developers really mean it. As you browse GitHub issues for NVDA, you may come across similar comments from NV Access and other contributors about this. This is actually one of the possible reasons why a GitHub issue might be closed, more so if developers do not hear from submitters for a long time. To be honest with everyone, my tolerance (for me) is reaching its limit, and that’s how serious this is. While folks can say to relax, I am NOT relaxing because not completely filling out a GitHub template, designed to help you to think and organized, can have an impact on developer productivity. Some folks can say to show generosity, and that’s why I noted that not everyone can work with templates, but this is a matter of project reputation and long-term maintenance, which are some of the top pillars in project management. Therefore, I once again plead with you to fill out the GitHub template (hopefully, completely) for sake of people who will read what you are reporting.

Thank you.

Cheers (and with sadness),

Joseph


Re: A Github ticket on too much attribute-like material being announced on web pages

 

Hi,

As a follow-up, people can still comment on a closed issue - the "closed" status is a tag (really), but I've seen folks comment on the closed issue which led to NV Access (or someone) reopening it later.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: A Github ticket on too much attribute-like material being announced on web pages

 

Hi Gene and everyone,

A GitHub issue topic can be closed for various reasons such as:

  • People lost contact with the person who originally submitted the closed issue.
  • Changes were made in apps, NVDA, Windows operating system, or other factors beyond NVDA that makes the issue no longer relevant.
  • No progress has been made on a pull request for several months to years, in which case it is closed and deferred for new developer work or is tagged as a draft so people can come back to it.

There are other reasons, some of which I think should be clarified by NV Access at some point. Of these, I will address a very serious problem in the next post, one dealing with GitHub templates.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: NVDA reading decorative images in ms Word, how to avoid it?

 

On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 08:20 PM, Jackie wrote:
I think screen shots are not decorative.
-
I'm glad someone else said it, because I was thinking it.

Screen shots may, in many instances, not be able to be succinctly described with ease, but they are not decorative in any meaningful sense.  And when screen shots are included in technical publications, even if they can't be succinctly described, I think it's helpful that they are actually described as briefly as possible so that a blind reader is aware of what's in the documentation that they may wish to point a sighted colleague to or ask a sighted colleague about.

There are all sorts of purely decorative graphics, but screenshots are not in that class.  They serve an illustrative purpose and their presence is important to note.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 


Re: NVDA reading decorative images in ms Word, how to avoid it?

Gene
 

As an example of shapes, I've culled these from the symbol/;pronunciation dialog.  I haven't tried to figure out how many such shapes are there.  I wouldn't be surprised if there are fifty, maybe many more.


These should not be spoken by default.  I think a lot of people are likely to know what I am referring to as shapes but, as I said, I'll add some as examples but I don't think the topic should have been closed in part because I didn't provide a list.  I'll add some if desired.








👈
👈    backhand index pointing left medium skin tone


Gene

On 3/1/2022 6:02 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:

Fair point, and I didn't intend to imply that we expect end users reporting issues to be able to know how NVDA processes different things.  In this case, however, I had specifically provided a good amount of information to the list about why the behaviour, in terms of decorative images, was as it was, and illustrated the need for defining when it should be read or not.  The examples given were in completely different contexts:

- Announcement of "figure" on web pages specifically.
- Announcement of "decorative images" in Word specifically.
- Reporting of shapes such as as right pointing triangle (in what context?  I have no way of knowing, and I'm not even sure what kind of shapes we're talking about here.  This is where an example is really useful - tell me how to insert such a shape in my word document, or give me a URL of a web page which has such a shape on it for instance.

It is fantastic to have people reporting images, but it is equally important to have those issues described as clearly as possible.  After all, if the core NVDA developers had experienced the issue you are experiencing and been frustrated by it as well.... it would likely already have been written up.  So assume the people reading the issue you write up, either haven't experienced the problem (and this is where including version numbers are important - maybe it's only an issue on a certain version of Office, or Windows, or a particular build of Office ON a certain build of Windows) - or maybe the person reading the issue likes the way it is, in which case, it's important to be clear on why it is a problem for you.


On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 10:44 AM Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 06:32 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
No comment on the validity of your complaint - but can you please create one issue for each problem.  If a change was to be made to how NVDA handled decorative images, it would be technically different from how it deals with figures for instance.
-
Quentin,

Now having read the ticket, I have to say that I am disappointed that it has been closed as "too vague."

The folks who read GitHub issues created by end users will very often have to break these out into separate issues when that's thought necessary.

The line in that ticket that says, "this sort of material should be off by default. users advanced enough will learn about turning announcements on they want" clearly indicates that for "that sort of material" the announcement of same should be toggle-able by the end user, and that the default state would be preferred to be "off" by the person reporting it.

A concise list of examples of "this sort of material" was provided.  It may not necesarily be exhaustive, but it is clear.

Even if I had created this issue, I have no way of knowing which among these things may be handled by one module of NVDA versus another, and no end user should be expected to.

The actual issue is clear, and the desired outcome is equally clear:  Make the announcement of the items listed as examples, plus related ones that may not be in that list that the programmers should recognize, toggle-able by the end user and make the default toggle for announcement be off.

It is a grave mistake to expect those reporting issues to do so as though they are developers.  That's not their job, and it never should be.  It was a clear issue statement, with examples, and the desired solution/outcome pretty clearly stated as well.


--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Re: A Github ticket on too much attribute-like material being announced on web pages

Gene
 

Also, I don't know enough about Github to know what the effect of closing a topic is.  Does that mean that no one can comment on it?  :Perhaps it means that even if people do, developers won't read comments because the topic is closed.  Please explain the effect.


Rather than close the topic, I think it should be left opened.  Some users and developers may well understand what I am discussing and continue the discussion.  That may clarify your questions. 


If you want specific web pages, I can start keeping a list.  I don't know how long it will take for me to run across a number of pages with examples, perhaps just one page is enough.  But meantime, I don't think discussion should have been stopped or discouraged. 


Gene
On 3/1/2022 5:39 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:

100% Brian,

If I see a complaint about something here, and it is well defined and I can replicate it and feel I understand the issue, I am happy to write up an issue if someone is not confident doing it.  I do encourage people to write up issues themselves because aside from anything else, it means they will be notified when someone comments asking for more information or when a fix is merged.

It is important however, when writing up an issue, to be clear on what the problem is, provide specific steps to reproduce it.  If it's a problem in Word for instance, assume I've never used it - tell me exactly what to press to experience the issue for myself.  In this case, the issue was extremely vague (Too much unnecessary information announced by default) and the specific issues mentioned (decorative images, reporting of shapes and figures) are different from each other.

Make sure issues are specific, because the fix for it will almost certainly need to be written for each particular issue.

Kind regards

Quentin

On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 2:28 AM Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
An editorial comment, and a positive one:  This is exactly what needs to be done when issues like this occur.  This would not be a bug report, per se (though it could potentially be logged as such), but is more of a feature request to be able to control what is and is not announced.

But regardless of how it's been logged (and I haven't looked) the creation of a GitHub ticket is what puts an issue "in for official review."  And, as you've noted, one of the metrics with regard to how much attention it gets, and where the fix (if any) gets prioritized, is based on user feedback in the form of comments in support of the ticket.

So if you're someone who feels that the types of graphics (and probably other bits) discussed in the topic, NVDA reading decorative images in ms Word, how to avoid it?, need to be under end user control as far as whether you hear about their presence or not, take a look at the GitHub issue and comment.

Never presume that comments on this group mean anything as far as NVDA development goes, as we are not "an official communication mechanism" to NVDA developers.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Re: A Github ticket on too much attribute-like material being announced on web pages

Gene
 

I didn't discuss how to reproduce it because you simply hear these things spoken when reading or moving through documents.  I wasn't more specific because I don't know just where you encounter such behavior other than web pages or Word documents, 


If you are saying I should find web pages, for example, where such material occurs, though I'm willing to present links if I happen to run across such pages, I don't know when that will happen. 


Had I known you wanted such specificity, I'd have been keeping a list of addresses for pages I encountered over time.  I seldom use Word and that complaint was voiced by another user.  I discussed them in one message because the problem is the same from a user standpoint.  If you want a specific document, perhaps the person could send it or place it somewhere where it can be downloaded. 


I am not being sarcastic or facetious and I am not being disrespectful but I strongly disagree with your comments. 


If you and others want that degree of specificity, I'll withdraw the issue and present it later, once I have collected links to web pages where the behavior is seen.  I don't know how long that will take, to gather some addresses of pages.


Gene

On 3/1/2022 5:39 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:

100% Brian,

If I see a complaint about something here, and it is well defined and I can replicate it and feel I understand the issue, I am happy to write up an issue if someone is not confident doing it.  I do encourage people to write up issues themselves because aside from anything else, it means they will be notified when someone comments asking for more information or when a fix is merged.

It is important however, when writing up an issue, to be clear on what the problem is, provide specific steps to reproduce it.  If it's a problem in Word for instance, assume I've never used it - tell me exactly what to press to experience the issue for myself.  In this case, the issue was extremely vague (Too much unnecessary information announced by default) and the specific issues mentioned (decorative images, reporting of shapes and figures) are different from each other.

Make sure issues are specific, because the fix for it will almost certainly need to be written for each particular issue.

Kind regards

Quentin

On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 2:28 AM Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
An editorial comment, and a positive one:  This is exactly what needs to be done when issues like this occur.  This would not be a bug report, per se (though it could potentially be logged as such), but is more of a feature request to be able to control what is and is not announced.

But regardless of how it's been logged (and I haven't looked) the creation of a GitHub ticket is what puts an issue "in for official review."  And, as you've noted, one of the metrics with regard to how much attention it gets, and where the fix (if any) gets prioritized, is based on user feedback in the form of comments in support of the ticket.

So if you're someone who feels that the types of graphics (and probably other bits) discussed in the topic, NVDA reading decorative images in ms Word, how to avoid it?, need to be under end user control as far as whether you hear about their presence or not, take a look at the GitHub issue and comment.

Never presume that comments on this group mean anything as far as NVDA development goes, as we are not "an official communication mechanism" to NVDA developers.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Re: NVDA reading decorative images in ms Word, how to avoid it?

Gene
 

I am not addressing you, as a developer, in a disrespectful way but I am strongly presenting my disagreement.  You may wish to comment further.


The issues may have to be dealt with differently from a technical standpoint but from a user's standpoint, the issue is exactly the same, hearing too much unnecessary and distracting verbiage with no way or no reasonable way to turn such announcements off.  I may write each as an issue but I would just be repeating the same thing for the different material, one for shapes and one for decorative images, which appears to me, from a user standpoint, to be dividing the issue and making it less likely to be seen as a unified problem about what is spoken and why.  I strongly believe that, whatever the technical differences, the issue is the same.  Dividing it dilutes the issue.  Whether its hearing figure with no way to turn it off, perhaps forty or fifty or more shapes that will be announced if encountered, or decorative images, its still all unnecessary and distracting verbiage, on by default, and with no way or no reasonable way to turn it off.


Why is the issue different in Word?  In Word, if someone wants to read and not edit decorative images, the issue is the same as reading a web page, with no intention to change the page and not wanting to hear such verbiage. 


Gene

On 3/1/2022 5:32 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:

Gene,

No comment on the validity of your complaint - but can you please create one issue for each problem.  If a change was to be made to how NVDA handled decorative images, it would be technically different from how it deals with figures for instance.  Also, saying "it reads too much" describes your frustration with it, but not how it could be improved.  In the case of decorative images, I actually started to write up an issue, but then as I noted in my reply on this thread, the behaviour IS actually basically what Microsoft describe they want.  So while there might be ways of improving the presentation to users, in fact it is not immediately clear what is being done incorrectly here, which is why I passed it back to Sylvie (or you, or anyone) to create an issue which describes the issue and the solution.  On the web, where a page is read only, it might be fine to completely ignore decorative images, but in Word, a way would need to be distinguished to determine when you were reading the page as a user consuming the content, and when you were trying to edit the page to maybe alter those decorative images, for instance.

Quentin.

On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 1:52 AM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

I have submitted a Github  ticket on the issue of too much unnecessary information such as this being spoken by default.  I discuss the announcement of all sorts of shapes appearing for emphasis or decoration on web pages and perhaps elsewhere, and announcement of figure, and of emphasis.


Those interested may read and comment on the issue here:

https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/13407


If people are annoyed by this behavior and don't complain in comments to this issue, it is far less likely any change will occur.  I doubt it will unless there is a good deal of complaint.


Gene

On 3/1/2022 7:17 AM, Sylvie Duchateau wrote:

Hello Quentin and all,

Thank you for your explanations.

I was confused because in HTML, decorative images are marked as such, with empty alt attribute so that they are fully ignored by screen readers.

In the case of my document, each tool that is described has a screen shot from the tool which is spoken as decorative image by NVDA.

The document contains more than 20 tools and I think it is disturbing and noisy to hear decorative image, decorative image and so on…

It takes more time to read the document when it is full of decorative images.

So may be it is worth writing a ticket so that users can have the choice between hearing nothing and hearing the text “decorative image”.

It would be interesting to hear what other users prefer.

Best

Sylvie

De : nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> De la part de Quentin Christensen via groups.io
Envoyé : mardi 1 mars 2022 11:04
À : nvda@nvda.groups.io
Objet : Re: [nvda] NVDA reading decorative images in ms Word, how to avoid it?

 

Sylvie,

 

It would be worth writing an issue for this with your proposed outcome (possibly ignoring such images when using say all?)

 

Note that reading Microsoft documentation on alt text says:

 

"

Mark visuals as decorative
If your visuals are purely decorative and add visual interest but aren't informative, you can mark them as such without needing to write any alt text. Examples of objects that should be marked as decorative are stylistic borders. People using screen readers will hear that these objects are decorative so they know they aren’t missing any important information. You can mark your visuals as decorative in Excel, PowerPoint, and Word.

"

Which clearly indicates that my screen reader will report that the image exists but that it is decorative.  This does basically fit with the current implementation.

 

(I'm not arguing either way there, just sharing that info I found when looking into this for you).

 

Kind regards

 

Quentin.

 

On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 7:35 PM Sylvie Duchateau <sduchateau@...> wrote:

Hello,

We have been working on a word document using decorative images to illustrate different items.

The images do not bring anything and have been marked as decorative images in the word document.

Note that the MS Word accessibility checker did not find any errors.

Nevertheless, NVDA still reads the images, saying graphic and does not ignore them.

AS tagging an image as decorative should allow screen readers to ignore the image, do you know of an issue for screen readers to vocalize graphics that are tagged as decorative ?

We use Office 365.

Thank you in advance

Best

Sylvie


 

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Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 



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Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

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