Date   

Re: Clipspeak Interfering with Clipboard and Other Functions

Abbie Taylor
 

Hi, Gene. I just downloaded the add-on and will see how it works. When I clicked on "Add-On Help" in the add-ons manager, it took me to a website that appears to contain a user guide. That might be a handy future reference. I also explored the add-on preferences but didn't find anything I needed to change, at least for now. Thanks so much for this.


Re: Problem with windows 11 notepad, and browsers

Gene
 

I don't want there to be any misunderstanding of what I am saying.  I am not saying that the person who started the discussion shouldn't have discussed problems with how Notepad or other programs work in Windows 11 compared with how they work in Windows 10.  I am pointing out kinds of approaches I think are important when working with programs and screen-readers.  As I said, screen-readers work in complex environments.  I am not objecting to people asking about or pointing out problems.  I am saying that where there are problems, unless or until they are resolved, you may be able to efficiently work around them in the meantime.  I've been using read current line in screen-reader searches for a long time.  I don't know if the annoyance will ever be corrected but I can avoid the excess speech problem using Reade current line.


I also see, from time to time, people asking about excessive and repetitive speech when an e-mail message is opened in this or that program.  Opening the message, then when the message has opened fully, issuing the read to end command stops the behavior.  If you do this regularly, it becomes second nature.  You may want until the moment you hear a bit of speech before issuing the command or you may want to try to develop a sense of when enough time has passed that issuing the command will start reading.  You may save a bit of time that way. 


Gene

On 3/15/2022 12:32 PM, Gene via groups.io wrote:

I take that back.  I did see it discussed once in teaching material.  I discussed it in my Internet tutorial, which is out-of-date but which discusses using read current line as I described.  It also points out numerous times where I use logic and inference when working with Internet pages.


Gene

On 3/15/2022 12:14 PM, Chris Smart wrote:

Joseph is talking about Notepad in Windows 11.

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: March 15, 2022 1:08 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problem with windows 11 notepad, and browsers

 

What behavior do you, Joseph and the person asking the question, expect in a search in Notepad?  On my Windows 10 computer, in Notepad, if what you are searching for is found, it isn't announced.  NVDA says found next occurrence of text.  In earlier versions of Windows, nothing is spoken.  I can use read current line to hear what has been found but I don't bother.  If the text is found, I hear nothing.  If not, an error message comes up which is spoken. 

 

When working with screen-readers, using logic and inference to determine what is happening is a skill that helps you use computers well.  this may be important in working with some programs or doing things efficiently in some programs.  Literally expecting a screen-reader to do everything exactly as expected in such a complex environment is a way to get caught up in minutia when you can often know what is going on without a literally exactly correct behavior. 

 

When using f3 in Notepad, to repeat a search, what is searched for is announced in Windows 10.  I hear it announced, followed by selected. 

 

I don't recall if I hear anything in earlier versions of Windows.  But whatever the case, if using f3 finds something I know it because no error message comes up. 

 

Gene

On 3/15/2022 11:33 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

Regarding Notepad on Windows 11, NVDA repeating the last line entered is actually a known problem, and a brief discussion between developers indicates that this may have something to do with (once again) a possible bad UI Automation implementation from Microsoft as Narrator suffers from text announcement bug sometimes (this is one of those instances where I just throw my hands up and give up; I spent some time trying to do something to no avail).

As for find dialog in new Notepad, NVDA not announcing things when you press Enter key is the correct behavior - this can also be observed with Narrator.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: addon updater

 

Hi,

You don't have to disable Add-on Updater - you can simply disable automatic add-on updates (NVDA menu/Preferences/Settings, Add-on Updater panel, first option) for the time being.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: NVDA and word perfect

Richard Kuzma
 

Good afternoon,
If you are looking for a word processor you might want to check out biplos.
It is a free open source program that read and writes Microsoft doc documents.
It also has some nice braille and audio creation tools too.
It has standard old school menus also.
If interested I can send you a drop box link to it.
Best of all, it is completely free.
Take care,
Rich

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Don H
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 1:18 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] NVDA and word perfect

Just got a Email offer for WordPerfect Office Standard 2021All-in-one office suite.
How well does wordperfect work with latest released version of Win 10 and NVDA?
Last time I used Word Perfect was back in the DOS days.
Thanks Looks like it is on sale for $109. of


Re: Problem with windows 11 notepad, and browsers

Gene
 

I take that back.  I did see it discussed once in teaching material.  I discussed it in my Internet tutorial, which is out-of-date but which discusses using read current line as I described.  It also points out numerous times where I use logic and inference when working with Internet pages.


Gene

On 3/15/2022 12:14 PM, Chris Smart wrote:

Joseph is talking about Notepad in Windows 11.

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: March 15, 2022 1:08 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problem with windows 11 notepad, and browsers

 

What behavior do you, Joseph and the person asking the question, expect in a search in Notepad?  On my Windows 10 computer, in Notepad, if what you are searching for is found, it isn't announced.  NVDA says found next occurrence of text.  In earlier versions of Windows, nothing is spoken.  I can use read current line to hear what has been found but I don't bother.  If the text is found, I hear nothing.  If not, an error message comes up which is spoken. 

 

When working with screen-readers, using logic and inference to determine what is happening is a skill that helps you use computers well.  this may be important in working with some programs or doing things efficiently in some programs.  Literally expecting a screen-reader to do everything exactly as expected in such a complex environment is a way to get caught up in minutia when you can often know what is going on without a literally exactly correct behavior. 

 

When using f3 in Notepad, to repeat a search, what is searched for is announced in Windows 10.  I hear it announced, followed by selected. 

 

I don't recall if I hear anything in earlier versions of Windows.  But whatever the case, if using f3 finds something I know it because no error message comes up. 

 

Gene

On 3/15/2022 11:33 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

Regarding Notepad on Windows 11, NVDA repeating the last line entered is actually a known problem, and a brief discussion between developers indicates that this may have something to do with (once again) a possible bad UI Automation implementation from Microsoft as Narrator suffers from text announcement bug sometimes (this is one of those instances where I just throw my hands up and give up; I spent some time trying to do something to no avail).

As for find dialog in new Notepad, NVDA not announcing things when you press Enter key is the correct behavior - this can also be observed with Narrator.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: Problem with windows 11 notepad, and browsers

Gene
 

I understand that.  I'm saying that even in Windows 10, the actual text is not announced and I'm saying that too literal an expectation may cause people to be dissatisfied with how a program does something and spend time trying to correct it when it is very clear, with a bit of trying different things and thought to know just what is going on.


Another important example of how to take a minimum action that dramatically increases efficiency, is doing a screen-reader search on a web page.  If you do the search and just let NVDA read when it finds a result, and JAWS does this too, you will hear all sorts of extraneous speech.   If, when you hear speech begin, you issue the read current line command, all the extraneous speech is stopped and you hear what you want to hear.  You save time,and annoyance if you do much searching. 


This is another example of using logic and inference.  Read current line reads the current line.  If you do an internet screen-reader search and hear a lot of extraneous speech, causing the current line to be read is a logical thing to try to stop it.  I have never once seen this discussed when instructional material discusses performing a screen-reader search on  a web page.


Gene

On 3/15/2022 12:14 PM, Chris Smart wrote:

Joseph is talking about Notepad in Windows 11.

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: March 15, 2022 1:08 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problem with windows 11 notepad, and browsers

 

What behavior do you, Joseph and the person asking the question, expect in a search in Notepad?  On my Windows 10 computer, in Notepad, if what you are searching for is found, it isn't announced.  NVDA says found next occurrence of text.  In earlier versions of Windows, nothing is spoken.  I can use read current line to hear what has been found but I don't bother.  If the text is found, I hear nothing.  If not, an error message comes up which is spoken. 

 

When working with screen-readers, using logic and inference to determine what is happening is a skill that helps you use computers well.  this may be important in working with some programs or doing things efficiently in some programs.  Literally expecting a screen-reader to do everything exactly as expected in such a complex environment is a way to get caught up in minutia when you can often know what is going on without a literally exactly correct behavior. 

 

When using f3 in Notepad, to repeat a search, what is searched for is announced in Windows 10.  I hear it announced, followed by selected. 

 

I don't recall if I hear anything in earlier versions of Windows.  But whatever the case, if using f3 finds something I know it because no error message comes up. 

 

Gene

On 3/15/2022 11:33 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

Regarding Notepad on Windows 11, NVDA repeating the last line entered is actually a known problem, and a brief discussion between developers indicates that this may have something to do with (once again) a possible bad UI Automation implementation from Microsoft as Narrator suffers from text announcement bug sometimes (this is one of those instances where I just throw my hands up and give up; I spent some time trying to do something to no avail).

As for find dialog in new Notepad, NVDA not announcing things when you press Enter key is the correct behavior - this can also be observed with Narrator.

Cheers,

Joseph


NVDA and word perfect

Don H
 

Just got a Email offer for WordPerfect Office Standard 2021All-in-one office suite.
How well does wordperfect work with latest released version of Win 10 and NVDA?
Last time I used Word Perfect was back in the DOS days.
Thanks Looks like it is on sale for $109. of


Re: Problem with windows 11 notepad, and browsers

Gene
 

I didn't state my last message properly.  If I do a control f search using Narrator in Notepad, nothing is spoken if what is searched for is found.


Gene

On 3/15/2022 12:13 PM, Gene via groups.io wrote:

Also, as a point of Interest, on my Windows 10 machine, when I do a control f search in Notepad, nothing is spoken if what is searched for is found.  NVDA says what I reported but Narrator is silent.  And Narrator's behavior is what I have experienced from Windows 95 to Windows 10.


If screen-readers announce more over time, that doesn't mean using logic and inference should be neglected.  And this should be taught as a part of training.  I haven't seen it taught nor training pointing out when and how it is being used if it is.


Gene

On 3/15/2022 12:07 PM, Gene via groups.io wrote:

What behavior do you, Joseph and the person asking the question, expect in a search in Notepad?  On my Windows 10 computer, in Notepad, if what you are searching for is found, it isn't announced.  NVDA says found next occurrence of text.  In earlier versions of Windows, nothing is spoken.  I can use read current line to hear what has been found but I don't bother.  If the text is found, I hear nothing.  If not, an error message comes up which is spoken. 


When working with screen-readers, using logic and inference to determine what is happening is a skill that helps you use computers well.  this may be important in working with some programs or doing things efficiently in some programs.  Literally expecting a screen-reader to do everything exactly as expected in such a complex environment is a way to get caught up in minutia when you can often know what is going on without a literally exactly correct behavior. 


When using f3 in Notepad, to repeat a search, what is searched for is announced in Windows 10.  I hear it announced, followed by selected. 


I don't recall if I hear anything in earlier versions of Windows.  But whatever the case, if using f3 finds something I know it because no error message comes up. 


Gene
On 3/15/2022 11:33 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

Regarding Notepad on Windows 11, NVDA repeating the last line entered is actually a known problem, and a brief discussion between developers indicates that this may have something to do with (once again) a possible bad UI Automation implementation from Microsoft as Narrator suffers from text announcement bug sometimes (this is one of those instances where I just throw my hands up and give up; I spent some time trying to do something to no avail).

As for find dialog in new Notepad, NVDA not announcing things when you press Enter key is the correct behavior - this can also be observed with Narrator.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: Problem with windows 11 notepad, and browsers

Chris Smart
 

Joseph is talking about Notepad in Windows 11.

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: March 15, 2022 1:08 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problem with windows 11 notepad, and browsers

 

What behavior do you, Joseph and the person asking the question, expect in a search in Notepad?  On my Windows 10 computer, in Notepad, if what you are searching for is found, it isn't announced.  NVDA says found next occurrence of text.  In earlier versions of Windows, nothing is spoken.  I can use read current line to hear what has been found but I don't bother.  If the text is found, I hear nothing.  If not, an error message comes up which is spoken. 

 

When working with screen-readers, using logic and inference to determine what is happening is a skill that helps you use computers well.  this may be important in working with some programs or doing things efficiently in some programs.  Literally expecting a screen-reader to do everything exactly as expected in such a complex environment is a way to get caught up in minutia when you can often know what is going on without a literally exactly correct behavior. 

 

When using f3 in Notepad, to repeat a search, what is searched for is announced in Windows 10.  I hear it announced, followed by selected. 

 

I don't recall if I hear anything in earlier versions of Windows.  But whatever the case, if using f3 finds something I know it because no error message comes up. 

 

Gene

On 3/15/2022 11:33 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

Regarding Notepad on Windows 11, NVDA repeating the last line entered is actually a known problem, and a brief discussion between developers indicates that this may have something to do with (once again) a possible bad UI Automation implementation from Microsoft as Narrator suffers from text announcement bug sometimes (this is one of those instances where I just throw my hands up and give up; I spent some time trying to do something to no avail).

As for find dialog in new Notepad, NVDA not announcing things when you press Enter key is the correct behavior - this can also be observed with Narrator.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: Problem with windows 11 notepad, and browsers

Gene
 

Also, as a point of Interest, on my Windows 10 machine, when I do a control f search in Notepad, nothing is spoken if what is searched for is found.  NVDA says what I reported but Narrator is silent.  And Narrator's behavior is what I have experienced from Windows 95 to Windows 10.


If screen-readers announce more over time, that doesn't mean using logic and inference should be neglected.  And this should be taught as a part of training.  I haven't seen it taught nor training pointing out when and how it is being used if it is.


Gene

On 3/15/2022 12:07 PM, Gene via groups.io wrote:

What behavior do you, Joseph and the person asking the question, expect in a search in Notepad?  On my Windows 10 computer, in Notepad, if what you are searching for is found, it isn't announced.  NVDA says found next occurrence of text.  In earlier versions of Windows, nothing is spoken.  I can use read current line to hear what has been found but I don't bother.  If the text is found, I hear nothing.  If not, an error message comes up which is spoken. 


When working with screen-readers, using logic and inference to determine what is happening is a skill that helps you use computers well.  this may be important in working with some programs or doing things efficiently in some programs.  Literally expecting a screen-reader to do everything exactly as expected in such a complex environment is a way to get caught up in minutia when you can often know what is going on without a literally exactly correct behavior. 


When using f3 in Notepad, to repeat a search, what is searched for is announced in Windows 10.  I hear it announced, followed by selected. 


I don't recall if I hear anything in earlier versions of Windows.  But whatever the case, if using f3 finds something I know it because no error message comes up. 


Gene
On 3/15/2022 11:33 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

Regarding Notepad on Windows 11, NVDA repeating the last line entered is actually a known problem, and a brief discussion between developers indicates that this may have something to do with (once again) a possible bad UI Automation implementation from Microsoft as Narrator suffers from text announcement bug sometimes (this is one of those instances where I just throw my hands up and give up; I spent some time trying to do something to no avail).

As for find dialog in new Notepad, NVDA not announcing things when you press Enter key is the correct behavior - this can also be observed with Narrator.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: Problem with windows 11 notepad, and browsers

Gene
 

What behavior do you, Joseph and the person asking the question, expect in a search in Notepad?  On my Windows 10 computer, in Notepad, if what you are searching for is found, it isn't announced.  NVDA says found next occurrence of text.  In earlier versions of Windows, nothing is spoken.  I can use read current line to hear what has been found but I don't bother.  If the text is found, I hear nothing.  If not, an error message comes up which is spoken. 


When working with screen-readers, using logic and inference to determine what is happening is a skill that helps you use computers well.  this may be important in working with some programs or doing things efficiently in some programs.  Literally expecting a screen-reader to do everything exactly as expected in such a complex environment is a way to get caught up in minutia when you can often know what is going on without a literally exactly correct behavior. 


When using f3 in Notepad, to repeat a search, what is searched for is announced in Windows 10.  I hear it announced, followed by selected. 


I don't recall if I hear anything in earlier versions of Windows.  But whatever the case, if using f3 finds something I know it because no error message comes up. 


Gene

On 3/15/2022 11:33 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

Regarding Notepad on Windows 11, NVDA repeating the last line entered is actually a known problem, and a brief discussion between developers indicates that this may have something to do with (once again) a possible bad UI Automation implementation from Microsoft as Narrator suffers from text announcement bug sometimes (this is one of those instances where I just throw my hands up and give up; I spent some time trying to do something to no avail).

As for find dialog in new Notepad, NVDA not announcing things when you press Enter key is the correct behavior - this can also be observed with Narrator.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: addon updater

Eduardo Fermiano Luccas
 

Does this mean I should disable the updater addon until further notice in the group?

Em ter., 15 de mar. de 2022 às 13:24, Governor staten <govsta@...> escreveu:

This is what Joseph Lee says about this:


Hi all,
As promised, here are the links to download 22.03 releases. Remember that Add-on Updater will offer older releases after installing these, so disable add-on updates until further notice:




On 3/15/2022 4:59 AM, Eduardo Fermiano Luccas wrote:
after I updated the addon updater and the resource monitor, the add-on updater keeps showing me a message to go to a previous version, I wanted to know if there is a way to stop this, or should I just click close


Re: Problem with windows 11 notepad, and browsers

Chris Smart
 

Ironic that I saw this post while listening to Jenny Lay-Flurrie speaking at Axe-Con about Microsoft’s accessibility successes. And yet, they have trouble with a text control in perhaps the simplest Windows Application?

 


Re: Clipspeak add-on for NVDA

 

Hi,

My concern has to do with manifest edits, but also any changes needed to support newer NVDA releases at the code level. As I wrote a while back (and repeated since then), editing manifests isn't enough when it comes to fully guaranteeing compatibility with future NVDA releases, more so for 2022.1 changes as several changes will break outdated add-ons.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: Problem with windows 11 notepad, and browsers

 

Hi,

Regarding Notepad on Windows 11, NVDA repeating the last line entered is actually a known problem, and a brief discussion between developers indicates that this may have something to do with (once again) a possible bad UI Automation implementation from Microsoft as Narrator suffers from text announcement bug sometimes (this is one of those instances where I just throw my hands up and give up; I spent some time trying to do something to no avail).

As for find dialog in new Notepad, NVDA not announcing things when you press Enter key is the correct behavior - this can also be observed with Narrator.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: addon updater

 

This is what Joseph Lee says about this:


Hi all,
As promised, here are the links to download 22.03 releases. Remember that Add-on Updater will offer older releases after installing these, so disable add-on updates until further notice:




On 3/15/2022 4:59 AM, Eduardo Fermiano Luccas wrote:
after I updated the addon updater and the resource monitor, the add-on updater keeps showing me a message to go to a previous version, I wanted to know if there is a way to stop this, or should I just click close


Re: addon updater

 

Hi Eduardo,

You can ignore the message from Add-on Updater.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: Emojis and NVDA under Windows 11

 

Hi,

The problem was caused by the fact that when you open emoji panel in Windows 11, a search edit field gets focused. This causes NVDA to treat arrow keys as text navigation commands. Telling NVDA to not treat this field as an edit field fixes the issue, which is the solution implemented in Windows App Essentials and in upcoming NVDA 2022.1.

As for Windows 10 emoji panel and the problem of this panel closing when you press keys, that's new to me - I may need a debug log to figure out what's happening.

As for NVDA assuming the role of Windows App Essentials as far as emoji panel support is concerned, not entirely. There is an issue with IME (input method editor) handling in Windows 11 that I'm still testing with Windows App Essentials add-on, and I plan to submit a pull request to NV Access to get this resolved - part of the delay has to do with Korean IME changes in Windows 11 which I'm still testing, potential changes with upcoming Windows 11 Version 22H2 (about to enter final testing by Windows Insiders), and trying to keep up with school (I'm at a point in graduate school where I need to let go of most of my add-ons to keep up with reading materials).

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: Emojis and NVDA under Windows 11

 

Hi Joseph,
Thank you so much!
I downloaded the stable version of Windows App Essentials for NVDA and
now I can read the emojies s with the arrow keys just like before.
👏

On 3/14/22, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:
Hi,

I think I know what's up: do you find that you can't use arrow keys to
review emoji panel in Windows 11? If yes, this is resolved via Windows App
Essentials add-on for NVDA versions earlier than 2022.1.

Cheers,

Joseph





--
Nevzat Adil
Library of Congress Certified
Literary Braille Proofreader
C: 512 502 4403
e-mail: nevzatadil@...
Facebook: m.facebook.com/LiteraryBrailleProofreader


Re: Tracking changes with Screen Reader

 

Jason,

I suggest using my tutorial, Searching a Groups.io Topics Page/Archive, and the search should be on [Word "track changes"] with the square brackets removed and the phrase "track changes" left enclosed in quotes.  This has been discussed, at length, on multiple occasions.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 

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