Date   

Re: question about highlighting text.

Luke Davis
 

Gene

I did some testing based on your message.

First, when trying to describe a problem, or demonstrate how you tested, it's always good to have a baseline from which to work. So, here is the document I used.
In order to render it, paste the following single line into the address bar of your web browser of choice.

data:text/html,<p>Paragraph 1.</p><p>Paragraph 2. This second paragraph, contains <b>bold</b>, as well as <u>underlined text</u>. Not to mention some <i>italics</i>.</p><p>Paragraph 3. This one has a built in<br />line break.</p>

That contains three paragraphs. One very short. One with a long sentence that visually might span two lines. The second also contains some formatting. The third contains a sentence with an intentional line break.

Okay, so on to some testing.

Copy from browse mode, via select all (Control+A) or shift+arrows:

Pasting into notepad, results in text, with line breaks at the end of each of four lines, one of which being longish in context, although it could be of arbitrary length and would still appear the same:
"
Paragraph 1.
Paragraph 2. This second paragraph, contains bold, as well as underlined text. Not to mention some italics.
Paragraph 3. This one has a built in
line break.
"

In text, that is considered four paragraphs, though there are no blank lines between them. I imagine the sighted would find this hard to read.

When pasting into Word 2019, the result has five lines, but four paragraphs. It pastes with my default font and size, so that the word "italics." appears on its own line, even though it is part of the second paragraph.
That can be demonstrated by character by character navigation, or by having Word right align that paragraph, and then checking what text got right aligned.

The single (in HTML) paragraph with the line break, results in two paragraphs in Word, because of the hard newline at the end.
Word's concept of a paragraph does not include hard returns, so this results in two paragraphs.

But, and I think this really needs to be understood well, my paragraphs in word are set to 1.1 line separations. NVDA+F says "line spacing 1.1 lines". It could just as easily say "double", in which case there would be a blank line after each actual line, even though there is no extra blank line in the text. There is no way for you to determine that through arrow key navigation, it is strictly a virtual line width, that is applied stylistically to the output.

Next up, Pressing NVDA+F2, then Control+A, in browse mode, as Brian suggested:

The only way that works, is if you also press bypass (NVDA+F2), before pressing Control+C to copy. Otherwise NVDA will say "No selection".
Personally I find it quicker to just hit focus mode, control+a, control+c, browse mode, because it can all be done with one hand and minimal movement (using the edge of my hand to press control); but to each his own.

Copying in one of those two ways, and then pasting into notepad, gets you:
"
Paragraph 1.

Paragraph 2. This second paragraph, contains bold, as well as underlined text. Not to mention some italics.

Paragraph 3. This one has a built in
line break.
"

I.E. six lines, with a blank between the paragraphs. Probably easier to read if you're using the ASCII version. But otherwise no real difference.

Pasting that into word, however, is very different from a font prospective, but no different from a paragraph formatting prospective.

On the font side, you get whatever the web font was if Word can do it, and what it calls "web style".
The paragraphs are still the same paragraphs, but now the bold, underlining, etc., is correctly rendered.

The line spacing, however, is set to single, instead of my normal 1.1, or my old normal of double (2 lines). So in that way, the copying from focus mode is actually worse. Though that doesn't really matter if you're going to select all in the word document, and change the font; or if you are going to change the paragraph spacing for the entire document.

But in no case does Word put a screen reader visible blank line between each paragraph, as the focus mode copy does in Notepad. That probably does make it easier for the sighted to read things in Notepad form, but it is rare in daily life to run into text formatted or shown that way (I.E. without any kind of presentational styling).

So Gene, I have to say that your original concern about pasting from browse mode copy, seems to be busted. Although the old known truth about the loss of font styling information when copied that way, is still true.

Luke


Re: Notices on Joseph Lee's add-ons: compatible with NVDA 2022.1, saying goodbye to most of my add-ons as of April 1, 2022

Louise Pfau
 

Hi.  I've been ignoring the notifications from Add-on updater about it and Windows App Essentials because it wants to roll back to 22.2 based on the database.  I haven't received the notifications for 22.03.1 yet.  I'm using Windows 10 Pro Version 21H2 (OS Build 19044.1586) and NVDA 2021.3.4.

Thanks,

Louise


Re: A Newbie with an NVDA Remote and Update Problems

 

Any resolution as far as the update problem?
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 


Re: A Newbie with an NVDA Remote and Update Problems

Chrissie
 

Status Update

Deleting remote.ini did the trick. Many thanks.

Chrissie:

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian
Vogel
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2022 9:43 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A Newbie with an NVDA Remote and Update Problems

On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 06:41 AM, Chrissie wrote:


I'll give it a try.

-
Status update, please?
--


Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Constantly insisting on "my rights" with no consideration of "my
responsibilities" isn't "freedom" - it's adolescence.
~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has
Responsibilities
<https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/08/opinion/spotify-joe-rogan-covid-free-spe
ech.html> ,
New York Times, February 8, 2022


Re: A Newbie with an NVDA Remote and Update Problems

 

On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 06:41 AM, Chrissie wrote:
I'll give it a try.
-
Status update, please?
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 


Notices on Joseph Lee's add-ons: compatible with NVDA 2022.1, saying goodbye to most of my add-ons as of April 1, 2022

 

Hello everyone,

With the release of NVDA 2022.1 beta 1, I understand that many of you might be wondering about state of your favorite add-ons, more so as 2022.1 is a compatibility breaking release. I can assure you that I and other add-on authors are working hard to ensure that add-ons you know and love are ready for the upcoming NVDA release.

A few important reminders before talking about my own add-ons:

  1. There have been reports of add-ons not working in recent NVDA alpha builds. This is expected as things can change without notice in alpha builds. Therefore, you should use NVDA alpha builds for the purposes of early testing and providing feedback to developers. Same can be said about beta releases.
  2. Don’t worry if your favorite add-on is not working with NVDA 2022.1 beta 1 at this time. I expect authors will provide guidance for their add-ons and their compatibility, and in some (or most) cases, compatible releases will be posted on community add-ons website soon.
  3. If you have feedback about add-ons, the first people to contact should be add-on authors, not NV Access unless you are talking about an add-on developed by NV Access.

 

Now for the fun stuff: I know that some of you are wondering about status of my own add-ons. I can report that if you are running 22.03.1 releases of my add-ons, you are good to go. The following add-ons are affected:

  • Add-on Updater
  • Enhanced Touch Gestures (EOL)
  • GoldWave (EOL)
  • Resource Monitor (EOL)
  • Sound Splitter (EOL)
  • StationPlaylist (EOL)
  • Windows App Essentials

 

You may have noticed that most of my add-ons are marked with EOL (end of life). And indeed, these add-ons (five of them) are no longer being maintained by me. The last release under my maintenance is 22.03.1. The official end of life date for these add-ons is April 1, 2022 as I will be making changes between now and then to remove support for older Windows releases (as I announced previously, 22.03.1 will be the final releases of end of life add-ons to support Windows 7, 8, and 8.1).

 

Thank you for your feedback for Enhanced Touch Gestures, GoldWave, Resource Monitor, Sound Splitter, and StationPlaylist over the years. Your feedback made all the difference for these add-ons. Now it is the community’s turn to make a difference for these add-ons in the future by maintaining them.

 

P.S. One more milestone before I say goodbye (finally) to the NVDA community…

 

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: Version 22.03/22.03.1 of Joseph Lee's add-ons: mandatory security updates #addonrelease

 

Hi all,

As promised, version 22.03.1 (NVDA 2022.1 compatibility update) of the rest of my add-ons are now available for you to install manually:

The first five add-ons are now end of life from me (more on that soon). Windows App Essentials 22.03.1 resolves a problem where NVDA would announce display content in Calculator when numpad commands were performed with Num Lock turned on. Again these must be installed manually until Add-on Updater offers them to you, and if you are testing NVDA 2022.1 beta 1, older versions will not be offered to you unless you told Add-on Updater to check for development versions of these add-ons.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: question about highlighting text.

 

On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 01:20 PM, Gene wrote:
Perhaps in a word processor, paragraphs are retained but not in Notepad.
-
That is almost certain to be true.

HTML and word processor formats automatically flow text for you and paragraph marks occur only when someone manually hits a return/enter at the end of a line.  Those are not stored as blank lines, but are generally displayed with whatever spacing is dictated by the settings in the document (be it web or word processing) in force when it's being created.

These typically end up being "translated to plain text" as a single blank line, sometimes, but in many others it's just a newline after a very, very long single line that is what comprised the flowed paragraph in a formated file format.

Plain text has a lot of limitations, and pasting anything to a text editor that originates in something that allows complex formatting is almost always going to produce some interesting, and undesired, results.

I have pointed this out repeatedly when it comes to email and those who choose to force HTML source email to plain text in their email clients.  You can wipe out vast amounts of information, like tables, headings, and the list goes on and on that provide information by format when you do this.  It's just bad practice, as the use of HTML format as the de facto standard has been in place for a long time now, and those who compose in it (which is almost everyone) expect that recipients will be reading in it and that their original layout will be retained.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 


Re: question about highlighting text.

Gene
 

I closed the ticket and explained why in a comment.  I'll create another ticket if, on further discussion, the matter of what is lost merits one.  It isn't clear to me now how serious what is lost is.

Gene


Re: question about highlighting text.

Gene
 

I'm not sure what the difference is and if you see paragraph marks when you paste into word, that may not be an issue.  If I paste a document into Notepad that I've copied from browse mode, there are no paragraph divisions.  If I copy the article with browse mode off, paragraph divisions are indicated by blank lines.  Perhaps in a word processor, paragraphs are retained but not in Notepad.

The reason I thought this was a general problem is that if I down arrow through text like an article on a web page, there are no blank lines between paragraphs and, seeing the same thing in Notepad, led me to believe paragraphs are not retained.

From what you say, code is retained that tells word processors to indicate paragraphs.

Gene


Re: question about highlighting text.

Fawaz Abdul rahman
 

Hi,
In his particular case, he just needs to highlight the text, hit escape to exit the focus mode, move to the formatting button, then click on it.
He is asking something like "How to make a certain text a link" similar to what we used to do in the wordpress editor.
His use case is different, but same idea.


On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 7:37 PM Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 12:33 PM, Gene wrote:
I really wonder how many NVDA users copy things from the Internet to send to people and have no idea that there are no paragraph divisions.
-
Gene,

You need to be very circumspect before doing this.  Even when I copy from a webpage using NVDA's virtual cursor and a CTRL+A, when I paste into Word I absolutely do have paragraphs, and if I turn on paragraph markers, they are there at the end of each word of each paragraph.

I am not quite certain what it is that you believe is missing, but it does not appear to be paragraph divisions.  The things like font face, size, etc., though are gone.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 


Re: question about highlighting text.

Gene
 

I have tried sending articles by selecting the text in browse mode, copying it to the clipboard, then ;pasting it into an e-mail. 
There are no paragraph divisions I am aware of.  If I don't have browse mode on, paragraph divisions are indicated by blank lines.  If somehow paragraphs are indicated in some other way in browse mode, I'd like to know it.  I may try an experiment and send part of an article to the list or to you copied using browse mode and see how it looks to a sighted user. 

I already created a ticket about the problem.  I haven't looked but I would think there is a way of withdrawing it if it doesn't apply. 

Gene

On 3/21/2022 11:37 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 12:33 PM, Gene wrote:
I really wonder how many NVDA users copy things from the Internet to send to people and have no idea that there are no paragraph divisions.
-
Gene,

You need to be very circumspect before doing this.  Even when I copy from a webpage using NVDA's virtual cursor and a CTRL+A, when I paste into Word I absolutely do have paragraphs, and if I turn on paragraph markers, they are there at the end of each word of each paragraph.

I am not quite certain what it is that you believe is missing, but it does not appear to be paragraph divisions.  The things like font face, size, etc., though are gone.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 



Re: question about highlighting text.

 

On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 12:33 PM, Gene wrote:
I really wonder how many NVDA users copy things from the Internet to send to people and have no idea that there are no paragraph divisions.
-
Gene,

You need to be very circumspect before doing this.  Even when I copy from a webpage using NVDA's virtual cursor and a CTRL+A, when I paste into Word I absolutely do have paragraphs, and if I turn on paragraph markers, they are there at the end of each word of each paragraph.

I am not quite certain what it is that you believe is missing, but it does not appear to be paragraph divisions.  The things like font face, size, etc., though are gone.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 


Re: question about highlighting text.

Gene
 

I'll probably create a Github ticket for the problem.  I haven't found any.  I really wonder how many NVDA users copy things from the Internet to send to people and have no idea that there are no paragraph divisions.

Gene

On 3/21/2022 11:28 AM, Gene wrote:
that doesn't solve the problem and there is no advantage to doing that.  I experimented just now.  If you are copying that way in browse mode, there are no paragraph divisions.  If you turn off browse mode and use document review to copy text, again, there are no paragraph divisions.  If I use select all and copy using control c, there are paragraph divisions.

Gene

On 3/21/2022 11:07 AM, Nermin via groups.io wrote:
Hi,


to highlight text and copy it from within a browser, use NVDA+F9 to set the start marker, then move to where you want the end of your text selection to be. Press NVDA+F10 to actually perform the selection, then press it again twice quickly to copy the text to the clipboard.


The result will be something like this:


A Free Solution
We have spent the last 12 years developing the global solution: a free, high quality screen reader, accessible to all! We have already enabled 100,000+ people to gain freedom, education and employment!





Re: question about highlighting text.

Gene
 

that doesn't solve the problem and there is no advantage to doing that.  I experimented just now.  If you are copying that way in browse mode, there are no paragraph divisions.  If you turn off browse mode and use document review to copy text, again, there are no paragraph divisions.  If I use select all and copy using control c, there are paragraph divisions.

Gene

On 3/21/2022 11:07 AM, Nermin via groups.io wrote:
Hi,


to highlight text and copy it from within a browser, use NVDA+F9 to set the start marker, then move to where you want the end of your text selection to be. Press NVDA+F10 to actually perform the selection, then press it again twice quickly to copy the text to the clipboard.


The result will be something like this:


A Free Solution
We have spent the last 12 years developing the global solution: a free, high quality screen reader, accessible to all! We have already enabled 100,000+ people to gain freedom, education and employment!





Re: question about highlighting text.

 

On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 12:07 PM, Nermin wrote:
The result will be something like this:


A Free Solution
We have spent the last 12 years developing the global solution: a free, high quality screen reader, accessible to all! We have already enabled 100,000+ people to gain freedom, education and employment!
-
The thing is, if the part that starts, "A Free Solution," is what you were trying to demonstrate, it's all showing up as what amounts to plain text.  There is no bold, italic, etc., in any of it.

Not knowing what the original actually was, I cannot say or not whether any formatting was lost or not.  But this would not be a good example to demonstrate preservation of formatting if it did not, indeed, have any to begin with.  If it did, it was not preserved.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 


Re: question about highlighting text.

Nermin
 

Hi,


to highlight text and copy it from within a browser, use NVDA+F9 to set the start marker, then move to where you want the end of your text selection to be. Press NVDA+F10 to actually perform the selection, then press it again twice quickly to copy the text to the clipboard.


The result will be something like this:


A Free Solution
We have spent the last 12 years developing the global solution: a free, high quality screen reader, accessible to all! We have already enabled 100,000+ people to gain freedom, education and employment!


Re: question about highlighting text.

 

On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 11:56 AM, Gene wrote:
If you turn off browse mode and use control a, you can select all as though NVDA weren't running.
-
Then there are apparently two ways you can force that selection to be performed by the browser itself rather than NVDA using the virtual cursor.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence.
     ~ Commenter, Evangelos, in comments for
         America 2022: Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities,
        New York Times, February 8, 2022

 


Re: question about highlighting text.

Gene
 

For some reason, my last message wasn't composed properly.

If you turn off browse mode and use control a, you can select all as though NVDA weren't running.

GeneOn 3/21/2022 10:44 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:


Re: question about highlighting text.

Gene
 



On 3/21/2022 10:44 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 11:24 AM, Gene wrote: > > But I'm talking about a browser. > > - Well, the only way I can get something, using keyboard only, that > preserves formatting (and it's not perfect, as in I get images, for > instance, sometimes duplicated twice) is to do a CTRL + A (Select > all) when focus is on the web browser displaying the web page, and > pasting into MS-Word afterward. And that's only if NVDA is not > running. If it is running, I need to use the pass-through command > (NVDA + F2) immediately prior to issuing the Select all command so > that it is the web browser itself doing the selecting rather than > NVDA doing the selecting in the virtual buffer. It might be > possible to put NVDA to sleep and then select via keyboard for > chunks, but even if that worked it would be useless to someone who > can't see as you'd have no way of knowing what it is you're > selecting. > > I can't even figure out a way to select text on a webpage as > displayed using the keyboard in "chunks," and that's without regard > to whether the screen reader is running at the time or not. It's an > all or nothing affair with select all. I can do it with a mouse, > though, so I suspect there is some "secret keyboard shortcut" that's > context specific that I either never knew or have long ago forgotten. > -- > > Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 > > /Constantly insisting on “my rights” with no consideration of “my > responsibilities” isn’t “freedom” — it’s adolescence. / ~ > Commenter, *Evangelos*, in comments for / America 2022: > Where Everyone Has Rights and No One Has Responsibilities > <https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/08/opinion/spotify-joe-rogan-covid-free-speech.html>/, > > > /        New York Times/, February 8, 2022

If you turn off browse mode when you are on a web page and NVDA is running, it will be selected just as though NVDA weren't running. 

Gene

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