Date   

Re: for the third time, filling out a PDF

Sarah k Alawami
 

You simply click open with, then choose apps, then choose more apps and word will be in the list, as long as you have winword installed. It wont' be in there by default though no.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Cavanaugh
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2022 11:19 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] for the third time, filling out a PDF

Sarah,
To answer your question, I just tried opening said file in Firefox, and it doesn't see the edit fields. My machine doesn't give me the option by default to open the file in Word, just Adobe Reader and the two browsers, Edge and Firefox. I actually thought I could get by with only using Firefox to read PDF files, but when I thought I needed to fill out the form I'm currently using as a test case a couple months ago, that's when I downloaded Adobe Reader.
Gene, to answer your question about System Access, I could try that to use this PDF, but I've never installed it, and I'm not sure SA To Go works with Edge. Microsoft has announced that Internet Explorer will not work on Windows 10 within the next month I believe, so that may work to fill out the PDF in question, but that's not going to be a long term solution.

On 5/18/22, Faithville via groups.io <faithville@...> wrote:
Use adobeacrobat reader dc to fill out pdf forms.

On 5/18/2022 2:46 AM, Gabriele Battaglia via groups.io wrote:

Reply to Bob Cavanaugh's message, wrote on 18/05/2022 at 06:17:


Hi. To me it's not possible. At least I've never find a consistant
way to do it.

Gabe.











Re: for the third time, filling out a PDF

Gene
 

What did you use System Access with before to work with the other PDF form?  If you used Adobe, then System Access should work with it as well.  We don't know if the current document will be properly accessible using System Access but you may want to try. 

Gene

On 5/18/2022 1:18 PM, Bob Cavanaugh wrote:
Sarah,
To answer your question, I just tried opening said file in Firefox,
and it doesn't see the edit fields. My machine doesn't give me the
option by default to open the file in Word, just Adobe Reader and the
two browsers, Edge and Firefox. I actually thought I could get by with
only using Firefox to read PDF files, but when I thought I needed to
fill out the form I'm currently using as a test case a couple months
ago, that's when I downloaded Adobe Reader.
Gene, to answer your question about System Access, I could try that to
use this PDF, but I've never installed it, and I'm not sure SA To Go
works with Edge. Microsoft has announced that Internet Explorer will
not work on Windows 10 within the next month I believe, so that may
work to fill out the PDF in question, but that's not going to be a
long term solution.

On 5/18/22, Faithville via groups.io <faithville@...> wrote:
Use adobeacrobat reader dc to fill out pdf forms.

On 5/18/2022 2:46 AM, Gabriele Battaglia via groups.io wrote:
Reply to Bob Cavanaugh's message, wrote on 18/05/2022 at 06:17:


Hi. To me it's not possible. At least I've never find a consistant way
to do it.

Gabe.


















Re: for the third time, filling out a PDF

Chris Smart
 

My machine doesn't give me the option by default to open the file in Word.

But, you can still run Word, go to File, go to Open, etc.


Re: for the third time, filling out a PDF

Chris Smart
 

Again, could we see the file for ourselves?
Do you have Dropbox, GoogleDrive, something like that?

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Cavanaugh
Sent: May 18, 2022 2:19 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] for the third time, filling out a PDF

Sarah,
To answer your question, I just tried opening said file in Firefox, and it doesn't see the edit fields. My machine doesn't give me the option by default to open the file in Word, just Adobe Reader and the two browsers, Edge and Firefox. I actually thought I could get by with only using Firefox to read PDF files, but when I thought I needed to fill out the form I'm currently using as a test case a couple months ago, that's when I downloaded Adobe Reader.
Gene, to answer your question about System Access, I could try that to use this PDF, but I've never installed it, and I'm not sure SA To Go works with Edge. Microsoft has announced that Internet Explorer will not work on Windows 10 within the next month I believe, so that may work to fill out the PDF in question, but that's not going to be a long term solution.

On 5/18/22, Faithville via groups.io <faithville@...> wrote:
Use adobeacrobat reader dc to fill out pdf forms.

On 5/18/2022 2:46 AM, Gabriele Battaglia via groups.io wrote:

Reply to Bob Cavanaugh's message, wrote on 18/05/2022 at 06:17:


Hi. To me it's not possible. At least I've never find a consistant
way to do it.

Gabe.











Re: for the third time, filling out a PDF

Bob Cavanaugh
 

Sarah,
To answer your question, I just tried opening said file in Firefox,
and it doesn't see the edit fields. My machine doesn't give me the
option by default to open the file in Word, just Adobe Reader and the
two browsers, Edge and Firefox. I actually thought I could get by with
only using Firefox to read PDF files, but when I thought I needed to
fill out the form I'm currently using as a test case a couple months
ago, that's when I downloaded Adobe Reader.
Gene, to answer your question about System Access, I could try that to
use this PDF, but I've never installed it, and I'm not sure SA To Go
works with Edge. Microsoft has announced that Internet Explorer will
not work on Windows 10 within the next month I believe, so that may
work to fill out the PDF in question, but that's not going to be a
long term solution.

On 5/18/22, Faithville via groups.io <faithville@...> wrote:
Use adobeacrobat reader dc to fill out pdf forms.

On 5/18/2022 2:46 AM, Gabriele Battaglia via groups.io wrote:

Reply to Bob Cavanaugh's message, wrote on 18/05/2022 at 06:17:


Hi. To me it's not possible. At least I've never find a consistant way
to do it.

Gabe.











Re: NVDA and How Buttons Are Announced

Carlos Medrano
 

Hi Chris,

Thanks, but I don't. WCAG is usually fresh in my mind because people I know run web accessibility-related questions passed me every once and a while. :-)


On 5/18/2022 10:58 AM, Chris Smart wrote:

Hi Carlos.

 

Do you do Website accessibility testing and remediation work?

 

I am just getting started in that field, so I hope I didn’t lead Mark astray with my suggestions. It sounds like you have a better handle on WCAG than I do at this point. 😁

 


Re: NVDA and How Buttons Are Announced

Chris Smart
 

Hi Carlos.

 

Do you do Website accessibility testing and remediation work?

 

I am just getting started in that field, so I hope I didn’t lead Mark astray with my suggestions. It sounds like you have a better handle on WCAG than I do at this point. 😁

 


Re: NVDA and How Buttons Are Announced

Carlos Medrano
 

Hi Marc,

from the perspective of someone who uses NVDA daily, everything you described is expected behavior.


I'm not an expert on web certifications, but have you looked into the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines [0]? For example, section 4.1.2 [1] describes the need for UI components to have a name, role, and value that can be determined and set programmatically. Also, section 2.1.2 [2] may also be of interest to you, which describes keyboard traps, such as those caused by embedded applications/modals and the need of having a convenient way of jumping out of them with a keyboard or with a button.


Note that it may be worth testing each screen reader with each of the browsers; some browsers may give different behaviors with different screen readers. For example, the Free PBX [3] web GUI works better with Firefox and NVDA; Chrome does not show all the controls on the page.

Hope this is helpful.

Best,

Carlos


[0]: https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/

[1]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/name-role-value.html

[2]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/no-keyboard-trap.html

[3]: https://www.freepbx.org/


On 5/18/2022 10:01 AM, Marc Grossman wrote:
I am testing a modal dialogue with NVDA/Firefox, Jaws/Edge, and VoiceOver/Safari on a desktop platform. The modal is launched with a form control (button). Screen reader encounters three form controls (buttons) on the modal.
 
NVDA:
Using TAB and the shortcut key B navigate screen reader focus and announce as Label/Control type, e.g. "Close Button"
Using arrow keys, screen readers announce Control Type/Label, e.g. "Button Close"
 
Jaws/Edge:
Using TAB, the shortcut key B, and arrow keys all navigate screen reader focus and announce as Label/Control type, e.g. "Close Button"
 
VoiceOver/Safari:
Using both TAB and VO+arrow keys, the screen reader announces Label/Control Type, e.g. "Close Button"
 
I understand that this might actually be the expected behaviour. Can anybody point me to resources on the web that confirm this?
 
Thanks in advance for any assistance. 


new help link for group;s.io

Dave Grossoehme
 

The groups.io has a new help link at https://groups.io/helpcenter which I received an email about last evening.

I took Brian's advice and contacted support@groups.io to solve my problem yesterday and was notyified about this new information last night.

Dave


Re: NVDA and How Buttons Are Announced

Chris Smart
 

 

I understand that this might actually be the expected behaviour. Can anybody point me to resources on the web that confirm this?

 

 

What do you mean by “actually be”?

How do you think the screenreader should identify the control type and function?

 

Are you a blind person who uses a screenreader regularly, or a sighted person who doesn’t rely on the screenreader feedback?

 

Are you familiar with WCAG "Success Criteria"?

If so, these may be related to your situation.

1.3.1: Info and Relationships.

2.4.6: Headings and Labels.

3.3.2: Labels or Instructions

4.1.2: Name, Role and Value


NVDA and How Buttons Are Announced

Marc Grossman
 

I am testing a modal dialogue with NVDA/Firefox, Jaws/Edge, and VoiceOver/Safari on a desktop platform. The modal is launched with a form control (button). Screen reader encounters three form controls (buttons) on the modal.
 
NVDA:
Using TAB and the shortcut key B navigate screen reader focus and announce as Label/Control type, e.g. "Close Button"
Using arrow keys, screen readers announce Control Type/Label, e.g. "Button Close"
 
Jaws/Edge:
Using TAB, the shortcut key B, and arrow keys all navigate screen reader focus and announce as Label/Control type, e.g. "Close Button"
 
VoiceOver/Safari:
Using both TAB and VO+arrow keys, the screen reader announces Label/Control Type, e.g. "Close Button"
 
I understand that this might actually be the expected behaviour. Can anybody point me to resources on the web that confirm this?
 
Thanks in advance for any assistance. 


Re: NVDA doesn’t honor verbosities settings when selecting text

Carlos Medrano
 

Cyrille, I think you're right; this sounds like a bug to me. Mine is set to most; that's probably why I didn't catch it when I tried it. I just set punctuation level to all and observed it announce the tab characters. I guess the bigger question is if it's intended behavior for NVDA to announce other white space characters other than the regular one (ascii code 0x20) with all being the punctuation setting.


Luke, you may be able to change the tab entry in the punctuation/symbols pronunciation dialogue accessible in the NVDA preferences menu from all to character to only announce it if you move the cursor to the tab character. The word tab should filter down the list to only the relevant entry.


- Carlos


On 5/18/2022 5:10 AM, Cyrille via groups.io wrote:
Hi Luke

With symbol level on '"some", I do not hear the beeps, but do not hear "tab" to be reported.
I can totally reproduce the issue with "tab" reported only if I set the symbol level on "all".

You may check NVDA's GitHub if a similar issue has already been reported; and if not, you should describe it in a new issue.

@Quentin:
The option considered here is "Line indentation reporting", not "◦ Paragraph indentation (e.g. hanging indent, first line indent)".

Cheers,


Cyrille

On Tue, May 17, 2022 at 09:36 AM, Luke Robinett wrote:
I find that when I hold down shift and use the cursor keys to select text, NVDA doesn’t use the same verbosity settings as when I am just navigating around. For example, I’ve got a snippet of code in front of me now. I have NVDA set only to beep for indents, not announce them. This works as expected when I move about using the arrow keys, but when I hold down shift and use the up and down arrow keys to select text one line at a time, NVDA announces the tab characters. For heavily indented lines of code, it gets tedious to listen to this when I just want to hear the actual content of that line When I’m selecting text. Is there any way to control this?


Re: for the third time, filling out a PDF

Faithville
 

Use adobeacrobat reader dc to fill out pdf forms.

On 5/18/2022 2:46 AM, Gabriele Battaglia via groups.io wrote:

Reply to Bob Cavanaugh's message, wrote on 18/05/2022 at 06:17:


Hi. To me it's not possible. At least I've never find a consistant way to do it.

Gabe.





Re: NVDA doesn’t honor verbosities settings when selecting text

Cyrille
 

Hi Luke

With symbol level on '"some", I do not hear the beeps, but do not hear "tab" to be reported.
I can totally reproduce the issue with "tab" reported only if I set the symbol level on "all".

You may check NVDA's GitHub if a similar issue has already been reported; and if not, you should describe it in a new issue.

@Quentin:
The option considered here is "Line indentation reporting", not "◦ Paragraph indentation (e.g. hanging indent, first line indent)".

Cheers,


Cyrille


On Tue, May 17, 2022 at 09:36 AM, Luke Robinett wrote:
I find that when I hold down shift and use the cursor keys to select text, NVDA doesn’t use the same verbosity settings as when I am just navigating around. For example, I’ve got a snippet of code in front of me now. I have NVDA set only to beep for indents, not announce them. This works as expected when I move about using the arrow keys, but when I hold down shift and use the up and down arrow keys to select text one line at a time, NVDA announces the tab characters. For heavily indented lines of code, it gets tedious to listen to this when I just want to hear the actual content of that line When I’m selecting text. Is there any way to control this?


Re: Suddenly realized that NVDA+SHIFTC or +R cannot set column or row header

William
 

After my initial post I found that the problem was initiated by enabling UIA support for Excel.



SuperSilly 於 18/5/2022 19:10 寫道:

Hi all,

A few weeks before I was still able to set the column header or row header using the hotkey NVDA+Shift+c or NVDA+Shift+r.

Today when I try to do the same thing in excel, it just typed the character c or r into the cell, but has not triggered the set header function of nvda.

I try doing the same thing with a portable version of nvda and it words, so I am wondering there is something wrong with my current installed version of NVDA. The installed NVDA is 2021.3.5.

I have tried the following things but nothing has resolved the problem:

1. reset input gesture to factory default

2. restart with addon disabled


Would you please instruct me on any other possible solution that I can resolve this problem? many thanks.


William








Suddenly realized that NVDA+SHIFTC or +R cannot set column or row header

William
 

Hi all,

A few weeks before I was still able to set the column header or row header using the hotkey NVDA+Shift+c or NVDA+Shift+r.

Today when I try to do the same thing in excel, it just typed the character c or r into the cell, but has not triggered the set header function of nvda.

I try doing the same thing with a portable version of nvda and it words, so I am wondering there is something wrong with my current installed version of NVDA. The installed NVDA is 2021.3.5.

I have tried the following things but nothing has resolved the problem:

1. reset input gesture to factory default

2. restart with addon disabled


Would you please instruct me on any other possible solution that I can resolve this problem? many thanks.


William


Re: for the third time, filling out a PDF

Robert Doc Wright godfearer
 

Why don't you convert it to something usable, fill it out then convert it back to PDF?

On 5/17/2022 11:24 PM, Bob Cavanaugh wrote:
Gene,
You do have a tendency to be rather blunt, but your response to me was
no more than usual, and I didn't take any offense. To answer your
questions, I guess I should have been a little clearer in my original
post. I can in fact move through the form using my arrow keys, but I
cannot tab through the form. I think I've seen websites like the ones
you are referring to, but I don't think that's what we're dealing with
here. I downloaded a completely unrelated form a couple months back
and it acts the same way. I just opened a third form that I was able
to fill out when I needed it, but I was using System Access at the
time and it acts as the other two forms do when viewed with NVDA. So,
unless there's a hidden trick when completing PDFs that nobody knows
about, I don't think this is a problem with the file itself, but
rather one with the way NVDA interacts with Adobe Reader.
I wasn't quite sure what to think about the lack of response to this
question, but I do find it hard to believe that out of the probably
hundreds if not at least dozens of people on this list, nobody would
know the answer. Surely there would be someone on this list who has
encountered a fillable PDF and has filled it out using NVDA and could
give me some tips.

On 5/17/22, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I'm not writing as I am to give you a hard time and I hope you don't
consider my direct writing to be other than my attempt to make the
following points strongly and clearly.

You say you can't move through the form and you say it is done
properly.  You don't know if it is done properly.  If you can't move
through it, maybe it isn't.

You are assuming that just because a field your screen-reader sees as
edit is available, that it can be filled in and is accessible. Just
because a car has a motor, does it run?  What if the car is out of gas
or the motor is damaged?

There are uncommon web sites where links aren't properly defined for
accessibility and they can't be clicked on by the keyboard.  They look
accessible and the screen-reader announces them as links but some links
require the mouse to be used.  This appears to be a choice a web
designer makes and it isn't the way links function unless the designer
specifies this.  That's very fortunate for us.

Things aren't necessarily as the screen-reader indicates in terms of
accessibility.  There are some things it doesn't know about and perhaps
can't be aware of.

You have gotten another question answered.  Why would people be ignoring
this one?  Maybe people don't know the answer.

If you want others to try working with the form to see if they have the
same problems and can figure a way around them, if the form is one you
don't object to sharing, asking for volunteers may result in people
asking to be sent copy.

You are working with browse mode.  As far as I know, in a properly
designed PDF document, you should be able to move and edit is though you
were working with a web page.

Gene
On 5/17/2022 11:17 PM, Bob Cavanaugh wrote:
Hi all,
This will be the last time I ask this. I find it hard to believe
nobody on here knows the answer to what seems like a fairly easy
problem to fix, but I've asked this twice since Thursday, and have
gotten nowhere, when every other question on this list including my
other one has had an answer within a couple of hours. Yes I could ask
for sighted help and probably will if I don't get an answer, but this
form was done correctly, unlike lots of PDFs I've seen, so I should be
able to fill it out without sighted help.
I'm using the latest version of NVDA and Adobe Reader. NVDA will see
that edit fields in the PDF exist, but I'm having the following
issues:
1. I cannot tab through them like I would a form on a webpage.
2. Pressing enter when focused on an edit field does not activate
focus mode as it would on a webpage.
3. Manually activating focus mode with control+space works, but does
not appear to actually fill in the forms as would be expected. How
does this work?
Bob









--
******
Sometimes I think I understand everything, and then I regain consciousness.
---------
Family Times theatre
http://familytimes.wrighthere.net:9244/stream
or ask your smart speaker to play family times on tune-in


Re: for the third time, filling out a PDF

Gabriele Battaglia
 

Reply to Bob Cavanaugh's message, wrote on 18/05/2022 at 06:17:


Hi. To me it's not possible. At least I've never find a consistant way to do it.

Gabe.


Re: for the third time, filling out a PDF

Chris Smart
 

Let’s see the actual file you are talking about.


Sent from Chris's iPhone.

On May 18, 2022, at 01:25, Bob Cavanaugh <cavbob1993@...> wrote:

Gene,
You do have a tendency to be rather blunt, but your response to me was
no more than usual, and I didn't take any offense. To answer your
questions, I guess I should have been a little clearer in my original
post. I can in fact move through the form using my arrow keys, but I
cannot tab through the form. I think I've seen websites like the ones
you are referring to, but I don't think that's what we're dealing with
here. I downloaded a completely unrelated form a couple months back
and it acts the same way. I just opened a third form that I was able
to fill out when I needed it, but I was using System Access at the
time and it acts as the other two forms do when viewed with NVDA. So,
unless there's a hidden trick when completing PDFs that nobody knows
about, I don't think this is a problem with the file itself, but
rather one with the way NVDA interacts with Adobe Reader.
I wasn't quite sure what to think about the lack of response to this
question, but I do find it hard to believe that out of the probably
hundreds if not at least dozens of people on this list, nobody would
know the answer. Surely there would be someone on this list who has
encountered a fillable PDF and has filled it out using NVDA and could
give me some tips.

On 5/17/22, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I'm not writing as I am to give you a hard time and I hope you don't
consider my direct writing to be other than my attempt to make the
following points strongly and clearly.

You say you can't move through the form and you say it is done
properly. You don't know if it is done properly. If you can't move
through it, maybe it isn't.

You are assuming that just because a field your screen-reader sees as
edit is available, that it can be filled in and is accessible. Just
because a car has a motor, does it run? What if the car is out of gas
or the motor is damaged?

There are uncommon web sites where links aren't properly defined for
accessibility and they can't be clicked on by the keyboard. They look
accessible and the screen-reader announces them as links but some links
require the mouse to be used. This appears to be a choice a web
designer makes and it isn't the way links function unless the designer
specifies this. That's very fortunate for us.

Things aren't necessarily as the screen-reader indicates in terms of
accessibility. There are some things it doesn't know about and perhaps
can't be aware of.

You have gotten another question answered. Why would people be ignoring
this one? Maybe people don't know the answer.

If you want others to try working with the form to see if they have the
same problems and can figure a way around them, if the form is one you
don't object to sharing, asking for volunteers may result in people
asking to be sent copy.

You are working with browse mode. As far as I know, in a properly
designed PDF document, you should be able to move and edit is though you
were working with a web page.

Gene
On 5/17/2022 11:17 PM, Bob Cavanaugh wrote:
Hi all,
This will be the last time I ask this. I find it hard to believe
nobody on here knows the answer to what seems like a fairly easy
problem to fix, but I've asked this twice since Thursday, and have
gotten nowhere, when every other question on this list including my
other one has had an answer within a couple of hours. Yes I could ask
for sighted help and probably will if I don't get an answer, but this
form was done correctly, unlike lots of PDFs I've seen, so I should be
able to fill it out without sighted help.
I'm using the latest version of NVDA and Adobe Reader. NVDA will see
that edit fields in the PDF exist, but I'm having the following
issues:
1. I cannot tab through them like I would a form on a webpage.
2. Pressing enter when focused on an edit field does not activate
focus mode as it would on a webpage.
3. Manually activating focus mode with control+space works, but does
not appear to actually fill in the forms as would be expected. How
does this work?
Bob













In-Process for 18th May 2022

Quentin Christensen
 

This week's In-Process blog post features news on NVDA 2022.1 Release Candidate 1, some local help for our friends from Ukraine, and news of an issue with Dell's Waves MaxxAudio driver. Read all the details at https://www.nvaccess.org/post/in-process-18th-may-2022/ (and do try NVDA 2022.1 RC1!)

--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

4421 - 4440 of 99750