Date   

Re: Thanks so much, list.

 

Penny, and anyone else who may happen to be overwhelmed with the single-message email volume for a Groups.io group, it is a simple matter to cut your traffic significantly.  Some choose to use the digest option, which will send you a synopsis of the topics that have occurred on any given day.  Some choose to set up topic preview, which allows only the first message in any new topic to show up in your inbox and no more unless you activate the link to follow a given topic in its first message.

See:  Controlling the Messages You Receive via E-Mail from Groups.io (docx)

Controlling the Messages You Receive via E-Mail from Groups.io  (PDF)

You also have the option of becoming a web-interface user rather than an email user, and here are two tutorials on reviewing group topics pages, AKA archives.
Browsing a Groups.io Topics Page/Archive

Searching a Groups.io Topics Page/Archive

--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

You can't crush ideas by suppressing them. You can only crush them by ignoring them.
     ~ Ursula LeGuin, The Dispossessed


Re: NVDA doesn’t honor verbosities settings when selecting text

Luke Robinett
 

Thank you for the replies, folks. I should have specified that I was noticing this behavior in Microsoft SQL Server management studio specifically but have observed it in other places as well. Using the speech dictionary to alter how it reads tabs is a great idea! I will give that a shot. Just to clarify too, there’s a difference in behavior when using the arrow keys without holding down shift versus using them while holding down shift, and the expected behavior, I would think, would be the same verbosity behavior whether or not text was being selected.

Thanks again 

On May 18, 2022, at 7:25 AM, Carlos Medrano <crlsmdrn@...> wrote:



Cyrille, I think you're right; this sounds like a bug to me. Mine is set to most; that's probably why I didn't catch it when I tried it. I just set punctuation level to all and observed it announce the tab characters. I guess the bigger question is if it's intended behavior for NVDA to announce other white space characters other than the regular one (ascii code 0x20) with all being the punctuation setting.


Luke, you may be able to change the tab entry in the punctuation/symbols pronunciation dialogue accessible in the NVDA preferences menu from all to character to only announce it if you move the cursor to the tab character. The word tab should filter down the list to only the relevant entry.


- Carlos


On 5/18/2022 5:10 AM, Cyrille via groups.io wrote:
Hi Luke

With symbol level on '"some", I do not hear the beeps, but do not hear "tab" to be reported.
I can totally reproduce the issue with "tab" reported only if I set the symbol level on "all".

You may check NVDA's GitHub if a similar issue has already been reported; and if not, you should describe it in a new issue.

@Quentin:
The option considered here is "Line indentation reporting", not "◦ Paragraph indentation (e.g. hanging indent, first line indent)".

Cheers,


Cyrille

On Tue, May 17, 2022 at 09:36 AM, Luke Robinett wrote:
I find that when I hold down shift and use the cursor keys to select text, NVDA doesn’t use the same verbosity settings as when I am just navigating around. For example, I’ve got a snippet of code in front of me now. I have NVDA set only to beep for indents, not announce them. This works as expected when I move about using the arrow keys, but when I hold down shift and use the up and down arrow keys to select text one line at a time, NVDA announces the tab characters. For heavily indented lines of code, it gets tedious to listen to this when I just want to hear the actual content of that line When I’m selecting text. Is there any way to control this?


Thanks so much, list.

Penny Golden <pengold2@...>
 

You've all given me such help.  The number of messages is just too many for me at this time.

I'll be back if I cannot get some answer that I need.

Thank you all so much. You've been very kind.

Penny

pengold2@...


Re: for the third time, filling out a PDF

 

Hi,

This can be partially explained by the fact that sometimes NVDA must inject part of its code to Adobe Reader to obtain additional information, similar in nature to how NVDA must inject inside web browsers to retrieve browse mode information. Think of it this way: when Adobe Reader DC detects that a screen reader is running, NVDA will not be able to obtain browse mode infor for a PDF document until Accessibility Wizard exits and the document opens. Since NVDA could not inject Adobe Reader support remote code inside Adobe Reader than, it will not be able to show the entire doument complete with form fields. Now you restart NVDA and it gets a chance to (properly) inject Adobe Reader support code, telling Adobe Reader to provide the screen reader with additoinal information from the PDF document. This is why sometimes it becomes necessary to restart NVDA to interact with websites and PDF documents opened in Adobe Reader.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: for the third time, filling out a PDF

 

On Wed, May 18, 2022 at 06:06 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

what if though the form cannot be given due to privacy reasons. I was under an nvda, still am actually, where I would not have been able to show the form to anyone, and mean no one. If this is the situation the OP is in is there an alternate to asking for the form(s) in question?

-
The short answer is:  No.

Debugging beyond the most basic, which we went past ages and ages ago in this topic and other related ones, simply cannot be done in the abstract.  There is a line past which one cannot do anything without an actual example to work with as part of the process.  And anyone on this forum who has ever been involved in either programming or testing can and will verify what I say.  It's like saying, "My car is making a weird noise, can you fix it?," and then, after the most common culprits have been mentioned and checked, insisting that a fix is available without "the patient" on which to do diagnostics.

And that being the case, if some entity is sending you a form they're requiring you to fill out that is not accessible, that needs to be brought to the attention of whoever in the organization it makes sense to bring it to the attention to.  The issue is theirs, not yours (though I know that, effectively, it's yours too).  If you're in the USA, then they should be prepared to have someone on-staff who can be privy to whatever information is needed be available to actually do the filling out of the form.

It's also always worth sending these organizations examples of fillable forms that are completely accessible so that they can compare and contrast the way these are set up that is different than their own are.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

You can't crush ideas by suppressing them. You can only crush them by ignoring them.
     ~ Ursula LeGuin, The Dispossessed


Re: for the third time, filling out a PDF

Bob Cavanaugh
 

If it's that important, I could send the form in question, but since
we have five forms now that are acting the exact same way, and Brian
provided links to two of them, I'm not sure what additional
information that would give.

On 5/18/22, Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@...> wrote:
what if though the form cannot be given due to privacy reasons. I was
under an nvda, still am actually, where I would not have been able to
show the form to anyone, and mean no one. If this is the situation the
OP is in is there an alternate to asking for the form(s) in question?



------
Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. .

For more info go to our [website.](http://listen.tffppodcast.com) . to
subscribe to the feed click [here](http://feeds.feedburner.com/tffp)


Our [discord](http://tiny.cc/d-tffp) is where you will know when we go
live on youtube, twitch and odysee. Thanks Restream staff.

Videos of some of our podcasts can be found on
[odysee](http://odysee.com/@tffp)


You can support the podcast by subscribing via the tip jar. You will get
early access episodes plus no adds. If you cannot do that, then leave a
5 star rating on our podcast using your podcast directory's rating
system.

On 18 May 2022, at 14:30, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Wed, May 18, 2022 at 02:22 PM, Chris Smart wrote:


Again, could we see the file for ourselves?
-
This, this, this - a thousand times, this.  The terminology "fillable
form" (whether the file format is PDF or MS-Word) is one of the most
ill-defined and misunderstood in all of computing.

Many seem to define (incorrectly) a fillable form as an electronic
file format that allows you to open it and edit the content, which may
include the various form field labels as well as the areas, usually a
series of underscores, that act in precisely the same way as they do
on a printed paper form.  That's not a fillable form, and it's
certainly not reliably accessible because there are no form controls
that cannot be edited by the end user accompanied by the edit boxes,
checkboxes, radio button collections, etc., that should be fillable by
the end user.

There are electronic files that have labels along with controls that
are supposed to be fillable forms (and the IRS is notorious for
these), where the behavior of traversing the form does not behave
anything like one would expect it would.  For those of you who want
to play with two simple examples, neither of which I consider to be
accessible using Adobe Reader DC (which should allow the filling of
forms - it certainly has in the past) see:
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1040s.pdf (version that's not claimed
to be accessible, though it does behave as a "point and click"
fillable form)
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-access/f1040s_accessible.pdf (claims to be
accessible, and though it does announce the various form fields and
controls, you have to manually change mode to enter data, and
traversing the form is a nightmare.  Checkboxes, though labeled,
don't seem to be activatable (checkable/uncheckable) by the means I
typically use when they occur on web forms or in fillable Word forms).

The following is offered as an example of how MS-Word fillable forms
are created and used.  I realize that doesn't solve the problem here,
but I've been preaching the gospel of accessible MS-Word fillable
forms where each and every control is announced when you land in it,
can be repeated if you hit the F1 key (sometimes with additional help
when that might be needed), and is fully accessible whether a sighted,
blind, or somewhere in between person is filling out the form on the
computer.

Microsoft Word Accessible Fillable Forms Tutorials

Creating Accessible Microsoft Word Fillable Forms.docx (
https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1mXXERn8V3-pdHhhn51Dd1qNuiVa1bxYl

)

Converting a Fillable Word Form to a Document Whose Contents Can Be
Copied or Edited.docx (
https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1jefL40F4GklhZaNxvEt1a4ytAZ00OG8V

)

Examples of MS-Word Accessible Fillable Forms

Simple_Fillable_Form.dotx (
https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1tsBWm3EXszFUab0pZJS-fYsll0OjTn-M

) (the one used in the tutorial on creating them)

BusNoteForm.dotx (
https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1DAZnbPraSN9zKFVk312dLDi1duwpxxYg

) (actually used in a local school, but anonymized)

Faux_Service_Invoice_Fillable_Form.dotx (
https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1b3qUcoMUFoIsjK4ODD2MvB-4FRarsl6f

)

Commercial #10 Envelope MS-Word Fillable Form Template (
https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1piYlI5xB5H5wRRFt5enhJu-jPUoWPkUE

)

Every time I hear anyone on any of the various blind-centric
technology groups mention fillable forms I want to scream, and not
because they've mentioned them, but because most of the electronic
"fillable forms" are not only often not truly fillable, but often are
not accessible, either.

It is impossible to discuss anything in the abstract, really, when
someone is having an issue with a form.  That form must be supplied
(without anything filled in, of course) for potential assistants to
try to determine what, exactly, they're dealing with.

--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

*You can't crush ideas by suppressing them. You can only crush them by
ignoring them.
* ~ Ursula LeGuin, The Dispossessed







Re: for the third time, filling out a PDF

 

Bob,

Have you run the Adobe Accessibility Wizard?

I just experienced the weirdest thing, in that I walked away from those two IRS forms right after posting that last message, just fired up NVDA again (I'd never closed the Reader DC instance where the forms are displayed) and I can now, for no explicable reason, navigate the accessible version (didn't try the other) with TAB and shift tab, focus is being clearly indicated visually as well as NVDA announcing the thing I've landed on, checkboxes are checking/unchecking using the spacebar to change the state, and it's otherwise behaving exactly as I would have expected from the outset.  Even the auto-switching between browse and focus mode is doing what it should

I cannot account for the cause of this change in behavior, other than to say I had started NVDA prior to opening the first IRS fillable PDF, then Adobe Reader DC which detected I had the screen reader on and asked if I wanted to run the accessibility wizard (which I did), and when it appeared the wizard was done starting to play with the form, which at that time was misbehaving badly.

Now it's not misbehaving badly and is, in fact, behaving exactly the way I would have predicted.  I had shut down NVDA before going out for a short walk, so maybe if the accessility wizard is run for the first time with the screen reader already active whatever it is that the accessibility wizard configures for the screen reader is not visible to the screen reader until it has been restarted.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

You can't crush ideas by suppressing them. You can only crush them by ignoring them.
     ~ Ursula LeGuin, The Dispossessed


Re: for the third time, filling out a PDF

Sarah k Alawami
 

what if though the form cannot be given due to privacy reasons. I was under an nvda, still am actually, where I would not have been able to show the form to anyone, and mean no one. If this is the situation the OP is in is there an alternate to asking for the form(s) in question?


Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. .

For more info go to our website. . to subscribe to the feed click here

Our discord is where you will know when we go live on youtube, twitch and odysee. Thanks Restream staff.

Videos of some of our podcasts can be found on odysee

You can support the podcast by subscribing via the tip jar. You will get early access episodes plus no adds. If you cannot do that, then leave a 5 star rating on our podcast using your podcast directory's rating system.

On 18 May 2022, at 14:30, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Wed, May 18, 2022 at 02:22 PM, Chris Smart wrote:
Again, could we see the file for ourselves?
-
This, this, this - a thousand times, this.  The terminology "fillable form" (whether the file format is PDF or MS-Word) is one of the most ill-defined and misunderstood in all of computing.

Many seem to define (incorrectly) a fillable form as an electronic file format that allows you to open it and edit the content, which may include the various form field labels as well as the areas, usually a series of underscores, that act in precisely the same way as they do on a printed paper form.  That's not a fillable form, and it's certainly not reliably accessible because there are no form controls that cannot be edited by the end user accompanied by the edit boxes, checkboxes, radio button collections, etc., that should be fillable by the end user.

There are electronic files that have labels along with controls that are supposed to be fillable forms (and the IRS is notorious for these), where the behavior of traversing the form does not behave anything like one would expect it would.  For those of you who want to play with two simple examples, neither of which I consider to be accessible using Adobe Reader DC (which should allow the filling of forms - it certainly has in the past) see:
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1040s.pdf  (version that's not claimed to be accessible, though it does behave as a "point and click" fillable form)
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-access/f1040s_accessible.pdf (claims to be accessible, and though it does announce the various form fields and controls, you have to manually change mode to enter data, and traversing the form is a nightmare.  Checkboxes, though labeled, don't seem to be activatable (checkable/uncheckable) by the means I typically use when they occur on web forms or in fillable Word forms).

The following is offered as an example of how MS-Word fillable forms are created and used.  I realize that doesn't solve the problem here, but I've been preaching the gospel of accessible MS-Word fillable forms where each and every control is announced when you land in it, can be repeated if you hit the F1 key (sometimes with additional help when that might be needed), and is fully accessible whether a sighted, blind, or somewhere in between person is filling out the form on the computer.

Microsoft Word Accessible Fillable Forms Tutorials

Creating Accessible Microsoft Word Fillable Forms.docx

Converting a Fillable Word Form to a Document Whose Contents Can Be Copied or Edited.docx

Examples of MS-Word Accessible Fillable Forms

            Simple_Fillable_Form.dotx  (the one used in the tutorial on creating them)

            BusNoteForm.dotx  (actually used in a local school, but anonymized)

            Faux_Service_Invoice_Fillable_Form.dotx

            Commercial #10 Envelope MS-Word Fillable Form Template

Every time I hear anyone on any of the various blind-centric technology groups mention fillable forms I want to scream, and not because they've mentioned them, but because most of the electronic "fillable forms" are not only often not truly fillable, but often are not accessible, either.

It is impossible to discuss anything in the abstract, really, when someone is having an issue with a form.  That form must be supplied (without anything filled in, of course) for potential assistants to try to determine what, exactly, they're dealing with.

--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

You can't crush ideas by suppressing them. You can only crush them by ignoring them.
     ~ Ursula LeGuin, The Dispossessed


Re: for the third time, filling out a PDF

Bob Cavanaugh
 

Brian,
I just tested both the forms you linked to, and NVDA does see them
both as fillable forms, just like the ones in question. In fact, there
doesn't seem to be any difference between the two in how NVDA treats
them. In all cases (the two forms you linked to plus the three I've
tested) I can indeed use my arrow keys to move through the forms, but
that's all I can use to navigate, I cannot use tab like I would on a
webpage. When encountering an edit field, I do indeed need to switch
to focus mode manually, but even when I do that and try to type,
nothing is entered. Speaking of IRS forms, I think I've also filled
out a W9 with System Access, from one of their PDF files. It's been so
long since I've done this that I don't quite remember how it worked,
but I think System Access did allow me to tab through the file like a
normal web form.

On 5/18/22, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
On Wed, May 18, 2022 at 02:22 PM, Chris Smart wrote:


Again, could we see the file for ourselves?
-
This, this, this - a thousand times, this.  The terminology "fillable form"
(whether the file format is PDF or MS-Word) is one of the most ill-defined
and misunderstood in all of computing.

Many seem to define (incorrectly) a fillable form as an electronic file
format that allows you to open it and edit the content, which may include
the various form field labels as well as the areas, usually a series of
underscores, that act in precisely the same way as they do on a printed
paper form.  That's not a fillable form, and it's certainly not reliably
accessible because there are no form controls that cannot be edited by the
end user accompanied by the edit boxes, checkboxes, radio button
collections, etc., that should be fillable by the end user.

There are electronic files that have labels along with controls that are
supposed to be fillable forms (and the IRS is notorious for these), where
the behavior of traversing the form does not behave anything like one would
expect it would.  For those of you who want to play with two simple
examples, neither of which I consider to be accessible using Adobe Reader DC
(which should allow the filling of forms - it certainly has in the past)
see:
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1040s.pdf (version that's not claimed to be
accessible, though it does behave as a "point and click" fillable form)
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-access/f1040s_accessible.pdf (claims to be
accessible, and though it does announce the various form fields and
controls, you have to manually change mode to enter data, and traversing the
form is a nightmare.  Checkboxes, though labeled, don't seem to be
activatable (checkable/uncheckable) by the means I typically use when they
occur on web forms or in fillable Word forms).

The following is offered as an example of how MS-Word fillable forms are
created and used.  I realize that doesn't solve the problem here, but I've
been preaching the gospel of accessible MS-Word fillable forms where each
and every control is announced when you land in it, can be repeated if you
hit the F1 key (sometimes with additional help when that might be needed),
and is fully accessible whether a sighted, blind, or somewhere in between
person is filling out the form on the computer.

Microsoft Word Accessible Fillable Forms Tutorials

Creating Accessible Microsoft Word Fillable Forms.docx (
https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1mXXERn8V3-pdHhhn51Dd1qNuiVa1bxYl
)

Converting a Fillable Word Form to a Document Whose Contents Can Be Copied
or Edited.docx (
https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1jefL40F4GklhZaNxvEt1a4ytAZ00OG8V
)

Examples of MS-Word Accessible Fillable Forms

Simple_Fillable_Form.dotx (
https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1tsBWm3EXszFUab0pZJS-fYsll0OjTn-M
) (the one used in the tutorial on creating them)

BusNoteForm.dotx (
https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1DAZnbPraSN9zKFVk312dLDi1duwpxxYg
) (actually used in a local school, but anonymized)

Faux_Service_Invoice_Fillable_Form.dotx (
https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1b3qUcoMUFoIsjK4ODD2MvB-4FRarsl6f
)

Commercial #10 Envelope MS-Word Fillable Form Template (
https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1piYlI5xB5H5wRRFt5enhJu-jPUoWPkUE
)

Every time I hear anyone on any of the various blind-centric technology
groups mention fillable forms I want to scream, and not because they've
mentioned them, but because most of the electronic "fillable forms" are not
only often not truly fillable, but often are not accessible, either.

It is impossible to discuss anything in the abstract, really, when someone
is having an issue with a form.  That form must be supplied (without
anything filled in, of course) for potential assistants to try to determine
what, exactly, they're dealing with.

--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

*You can't crush ideas by suppressing them. You can only crush them by
ignoring them.
* ~ Ursula LeGuin, The Dispossessed






Re: for the third time, filling out a PDF

 

On Wed, May 18, 2022 at 02:22 PM, Chris Smart wrote:
Again, could we see the file for ourselves?
-
This, this, this - a thousand times, this.  The terminology "fillable form" (whether the file format is PDF or MS-Word) is one of the most ill-defined and misunderstood in all of computing.

Many seem to define (incorrectly) a fillable form as an electronic file format that allows you to open it and edit the content, which may include the various form field labels as well as the areas, usually a series of underscores, that act in precisely the same way as they do on a printed paper form.  That's not a fillable form, and it's certainly not reliably accessible because there are no form controls that cannot be edited by the end user accompanied by the edit boxes, checkboxes, radio button collections, etc., that should be fillable by the end user.

There are electronic files that have labels along with controls that are supposed to be fillable forms (and the IRS is notorious for these), where the behavior of traversing the form does not behave anything like one would expect it would.  For those of you who want to play with two simple examples, neither of which I consider to be accessible using Adobe Reader DC (which should allow the filling of forms - it certainly has in the past) see:
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1040s.pdf  (version that's not claimed to be accessible, though it does behave as a "point and click" fillable form)
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-access/f1040s_accessible.pdf (claims to be accessible, and though it does announce the various form fields and controls, you have to manually change mode to enter data, and traversing the form is a nightmare.  Checkboxes, though labeled, don't seem to be activatable (checkable/uncheckable) by the means I typically use when they occur on web forms or in fillable Word forms).

The following is offered as an example of how MS-Word fillable forms are created and used.  I realize that doesn't solve the problem here, but I've been preaching the gospel of accessible MS-Word fillable forms where each and every control is announced when you land in it, can be repeated if you hit the F1 key (sometimes with additional help when that might be needed), and is fully accessible whether a sighted, blind, or somewhere in between person is filling out the form on the computer.

Microsoft Word Accessible Fillable Forms Tutorials

Creating Accessible Microsoft Word Fillable Forms.docx

Converting a Fillable Word Form to a Document Whose Contents Can Be Copied or Edited.docx

Examples of MS-Word Accessible Fillable Forms

            Simple_Fillable_Form.dotx  (the one used in the tutorial on creating them)

            BusNoteForm.dotx  (actually used in a local school, but anonymized)

            Faux_Service_Invoice_Fillable_Form.dotx

            Commercial #10 Envelope MS-Word Fillable Form Template

Every time I hear anyone on any of the various blind-centric technology groups mention fillable forms I want to scream, and not because they've mentioned them, but because most of the electronic "fillable forms" are not only often not truly fillable, but often are not accessible, either.

It is impossible to discuss anything in the abstract, really, when someone is having an issue with a form.  That form must be supplied (without anything filled in, of course) for potential assistants to try to determine what, exactly, they're dealing with.

--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

You can't crush ideas by suppressing them. You can only crush them by ignoring them.
     ~ Ursula LeGuin, The Dispossessed


Re: for the third time, filling out a PDF

Cearbhall O'Meadhra
 

Absolutely, Sarah,


H is the shortcut I use also. Like you, my Word is number 8 of 11!


All the best,

Cearbhall

m +353 (0)833323487 Ph: _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@...

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2022 9:35 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] for the third time, filling out a PDF

Well for me word is not in the menu choices hence I must drill down into there to choose it. And for me it is not down arrow twice, so just hit h, in my case, to get to open with.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Cearbhall O'Meadhra
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2022 12:45 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] for the third time, filling out a PDF

Bob,

I have watched the messages all day and held back while so many were answering you.

Firstly, Firefox cannot read PDF files. You need either edge or Chrome or Adobe.

If you want to open the .pdf file in Word then use the context menu to open it with word.

Here are the steps:
1. locate the file you want to open;
2. Press shift + f10 or the application key beside the right control key; 3. Press "n" twice until you hear "Open With"; 5. press right arrow and down until you hear "Microsoft Word" and press enter.

The file will then open in Word.


All the best,

Cearbhall

m +353 (0)833323487 Ph: _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@...


-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Cavanaugh
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2022 7:19 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] for the third time, filling out a PDF

Sarah,
To answer your question, I just tried opening said file in Firefox, and it doesn't see the edit fields. My machine doesn't give me the option by default to open the file in Word, just Adobe Reader and the two browsers, Edge and Firefox. I actually thought I could get by with only using Firefox to read PDF files, but when I thought I needed to fill out the form I'm currently using as a test case a couple months ago, that's when I downloaded Adobe Reader.
Gene, to answer your question about System Access, I could try that to use this PDF, but I've never installed it, and I'm not sure SA To Go works with Edge. Microsoft has announced that Internet Explorer will not work on Windows 10 within the next month I believe, so that may work to fill out the PDF in question, but that's not going to be a long term solution.

On 5/18/22, Faithville via groups.io <faithville@...> wrote:
Use adobeacrobat reader dc to fill out pdf forms.

On 5/18/2022 2:46 AM, Gabriele Battaglia via groups.io wrote:

Reply to Bob Cavanaugh's message, wrote on 18/05/2022 at 06:17:


Hi. To me it's not possible. At least I've never find a consistant
way to do it.

Gabe.















--
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Re: for the third time, filling out a PDF

JM Casey
 

Opening pdfs and only loading single pages is, I believe, even the default adobe behaviour to this day, unless you change it, which certainly makes many features, like the find command, much more convenient.

In firefox, if you press pgdn or arrow past the bottom of a page, a new page will load. You just have to give it a second or two.

Whether it’s the best method or not wasn’t really the question, but I felt the need to contradict the person who stated that Firefox cannot open PDF files; it sure can.

I do not use Edge, but there are so many ways to open and read pDF files at this point that one would almost be better off asking the question, what *doesn’t** open pdf files.

That doesn’t mean though that forms are easilyf illable, and that seems to be the experience most people are having.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: May 18, 2022 04:22 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] for the third time, filling out a PDF

 

I've tried opening PDF files with Firefox.  It only, in my experience, loads one or perhaps a small number of pages at a time and that is very inconvenient.  I find Edge to be a very efficient way to read PDF documents because it loads very long documents, even book length documents in perhaps six or ten seconds, as a guess.  I haven't loaded long documents enough to give really accurate times.

I haven't tried filling out forms.  I have found that tables are not preserved as tables but reading straight text works very well if the text is formatted so it can be shown in the correct order in the first place.

Also, by default, Edge returns to the last page you were reading when you open a document again.
Gene

On 5/18/2022 3:03 PM, JM Casey wrote:

Hey.
 
Firefox can indeed open pdf files, and has been able to do so for quite a few years. Theya re readable with screen-readers using this browser. Not sure about filling them out, though. 
When I had to fill out a whole crapload of immigration forms, I used Adobe Acrobat Pro.
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Cearbhall O'Meadhra
Sent: May 18, 2022 03:45 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] for the third time, filling out a PDF
 
Bob,
 
I have watched the messages all day and held back while so many were answering you.
 
Firstly, Firefox cannot read PDF files. You need either edge or Chrome or Adobe.
 
If you want to open the .pdf file in Word then use the context menu to open it with word.
 
Here are the steps:
1. locate the file you want to open;
2. Press shift + f10 or the application key beside the right control key; 3. Press "n"  twice until you hear "Open With"; 5. press right arrow and down until you hear "Microsoft Word" and press enter.
 
The file will then open in Word.
 
 
All the best,
 
Cearbhall
 
m +353 (0)833323487 Ph: _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@...
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Cavanaugh
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2022 7:19 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] for the third time, filling out a PDF
 
Sarah,
To answer your question, I just tried opening said file in Firefox, and it doesn't see the edit fields. My machine doesn't give me the option by default to open the file in Word, just Adobe Reader and the two browsers, Edge and Firefox. I actually thought I could get by with only using Firefox to read PDF files, but when I thought I needed to fill out the form I'm currently using as a test case a couple months ago, that's when I downloaded Adobe Reader.
Gene, to answer your question about System Access, I could try that to use this PDF, but I've never installed it, and I'm not sure SA To Go works with Edge. Microsoft has announced that Internet Explorer will not work on Windows 10 within the next month I believe, so that may work to fill out the PDF in question, but that's not going to be a long term solution.
 
On 5/18/22, Faithville via groups.io <faithville@...> wrote:
Use adobeacrobat reader dc to fill out pdf forms.
 
On 5/18/2022 2:46 AM, Gabriele Battaglia via groups.io wrote:
 
Reply to Bob Cavanaugh's message, wrote on 18/05/2022 at 06:17:
 
 
Hi. To me it's not possible. At least I've never find a consistant 
way to do it.
 
Gabe.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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Re: NVDA and How Buttons Are Announced

Carlos Medrano
 

This is strictly anecdotal from personal observation, but I've grown to associate focus vs brows mode based on the way controls are spoken. For example, brows mode usually prepends the control type before the name for most things like buttons and links. As far as I'm aware, the screen reader chooses how to present that data, not the web developer.


It's been a while since I used JAWS, but I remember it behaving similarly when navigating using NVDA's equivalent of brows mode VS just tabbing around in it's focus mode equivalent.


On 5/18/2022 12:28 PM, Gene wrote:

But you are still getting all the information.  I haven't compared other screen-readers but I believe this is expected behavior in NVDA.  JAWS allows you to set whether you hear the kind of control before other information or other information first.  It is not determined by the web page. 

IN NVDA, if I tab to a link that is visited, I hear the link spoken before visited.  If I up or down arrow to a visited link, I hear visited link before the link is spoken.

In other words, these variations are screen-reader variations and aren't determined by the web page.

Gene

On 5/18/2022 2:16 PM, Marc Grossman wrote:

Yes I am a daily screen reader user and am familiar with WCAG. I wholeheartedly agree with both of you that form controls should announce the type of control, the state of the control, and the label on the control. Your references to WCAG guidelines are spot on.

My main question can be boiled down to this. If I navigate with arrow keys to the control, it is announced by NVDA as "Button Close" but If I navigate to the control with the tab key or the letter B, NVDA announces as "Close Button."

 

The engineer has informed me that it was coded to meet WCAG guidelines and another colleague believes that this is the expected behavior. I do not like to necessarily make comparisons to other assistive tech but in this case I do think it is relevant. Jaws and VoiceOver both announce the control as "Close Button" regardless of how focus is navigated to the control.

Was just wondering if that sounds correct? If so, is there any documentation to inform others on how NVDA handles form controls, specifically buttons.

Thanks



Re: for the third time, filling out a PDF

Sarah k Alawami
 

Well for me word is not in the menu choices hence I must drill down into there to choose it. And for me it is not down arrow twice, so just hit h, in my case, to get to open with.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Cearbhall O'Meadhra
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2022 12:45 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] for the third time, filling out a PDF

Bob,

I have watched the messages all day and held back while so many were answering you.

Firstly, Firefox cannot read PDF files. You need either edge or Chrome or Adobe.

If you want to open the .pdf file in Word then use the context menu to open it with word.

Here are the steps:
1. locate the file you want to open;
2. Press shift + f10 or the application key beside the right control key; 3. Press "n" twice until you hear "Open With"; 5. press right arrow and down until you hear "Microsoft Word" and press enter.

The file will then open in Word.


All the best,

Cearbhall

m +353 (0)833323487 Ph: _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@...


-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Cavanaugh
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2022 7:19 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] for the third time, filling out a PDF

Sarah,
To answer your question, I just tried opening said file in Firefox, and it doesn't see the edit fields. My machine doesn't give me the option by default to open the file in Word, just Adobe Reader and the two browsers, Edge and Firefox. I actually thought I could get by with only using Firefox to read PDF files, but when I thought I needed to fill out the form I'm currently using as a test case a couple months ago, that's when I downloaded Adobe Reader.
Gene, to answer your question about System Access, I could try that to use this PDF, but I've never installed it, and I'm not sure SA To Go works with Edge. Microsoft has announced that Internet Explorer will not work on Windows 10 within the next month I believe, so that may work to fill out the PDF in question, but that's not going to be a long term solution.

On 5/18/22, Faithville via groups.io <faithville@...> wrote:
Use adobeacrobat reader dc to fill out pdf forms.

On 5/18/2022 2:46 AM, Gabriele Battaglia via groups.io wrote:

Reply to Bob Cavanaugh's message, wrote on 18/05/2022 at 06:17:


Hi. To me it's not possible. At least I've never find a consistant
way to do it.

Gabe.















--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


Re: NVDA and How Buttons Are Announced

 

Hi all,

Specifically, the answer lies with how NVDA treats text information (and formatting) as you navigate by character/word/line. While I can't go into details without risking finals study schedule, all I can say (at this time) is that NVDA will look at formatting information as you use arrow keys to navigate text in browse mode context. The reason why you hear "close button" when you press Tab key versus "button close" as you press arrow keys has to do with the fact that the former responds to possible system focus changes and the latter is a reaction to browse mode cursor location changes.

In answer to the big question posed: this is screen reader specific. You can in fact tell JAWS to announce control type (that's what it is called) before label, and NVDA does so differently based on context you are in. I can go into details upon request (either next week or in July).

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: for the third time, filling out a PDF

Gene
 

I've tried opening PDF files with Firefox.  It only, in my experience, loads one or perhaps a small number of pages at a time and that is very inconvenient.  I find Edge to be a very efficient way to read PDF documents because it loads very long documents, even book length documents in perhaps six or ten seconds, as a guess.  I haven't loaded long documents enough to give really accurate times.

I haven't tried filling out forms.  I have found that tables are not preserved as tables but reading straight text works very well if the text is formatted so it can be shown in the correct order in the first place.

Also, by default, Edge returns to the last page you were reading when you open a document again.
Gene

On 5/18/2022 3:03 PM, JM Casey wrote:

Hey.

Firefox can indeed open pdf files, and has been able to do so for quite a few years. Theya re readable with screen-readers using this browser. Not sure about filling them out, though. 
When I had to fill out a whole crapload of immigration forms, I used Adobe Acrobat Pro.


-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Cearbhall O'Meadhra
Sent: May 18, 2022 03:45 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] for the third time, filling out a PDF

Bob,

I have watched the messages all day and held back while so many were answering you.

Firstly, Firefox cannot read PDF files. You need either edge or Chrome or Adobe.

If you want to open the .pdf file in Word then use the context menu to open it with word.

Here are the steps:
1. locate the file you want to open;
2. Press shift + f10 or the application key beside the right control key; 3. Press "n"  twice until you hear "Open With"; 5. press right arrow and down until you hear "Microsoft Word" and press enter.

The file will then open in Word.


All the best,

Cearbhall

m +353 (0)833323487 Ph: _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@...


-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Cavanaugh
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2022 7:19 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] for the third time, filling out a PDF

Sarah,
To answer your question, I just tried opening said file in Firefox, and it doesn't see the edit fields. My machine doesn't give me the option by default to open the file in Word, just Adobe Reader and the two browsers, Edge and Firefox. I actually thought I could get by with only using Firefox to read PDF files, but when I thought I needed to fill out the form I'm currently using as a test case a couple months ago, that's when I downloaded Adobe Reader.
Gene, to answer your question about System Access, I could try that to use this PDF, but I've never installed it, and I'm not sure SA To Go works with Edge. Microsoft has announced that Internet Explorer will not work on Windows 10 within the next month I believe, so that may work to fill out the PDF in question, but that's not going to be a long term solution.

On 5/18/22, Faithville via groups.io <faithville@...> wrote:
Use adobeacrobat reader dc to fill out pdf forms.

On 5/18/2022 2:46 AM, Gabriele Battaglia via groups.io wrote:
Reply to Bob Cavanaugh's message, wrote on 18/05/2022 at 06:17:


Hi. To me it's not possible. At least I've never find a consistant 
way to do it.

Gabe.

















--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus













Re: for the third time, filling out a PDF

JM Casey
 

Hey.

Firefox can indeed open pdf files, and has been able to do so for quite a few years. Theya re readable with screen-readers using this browser. Not sure about filling them out, though.
When I had to fill out a whole crapload of immigration forms, I used Adobe Acrobat Pro.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Cearbhall O'Meadhra
Sent: May 18, 2022 03:45 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] for the third time, filling out a PDF

Bob,

I have watched the messages all day and held back while so many were answering you.

Firstly, Firefox cannot read PDF files. You need either edge or Chrome or Adobe.

If you want to open the .pdf file in Word then use the context menu to open it with word.

Here are the steps:
1. locate the file you want to open;
2. Press shift + f10 or the application key beside the right control key; 3. Press "n" twice until you hear "Open With"; 5. press right arrow and down until you hear "Microsoft Word" and press enter.

The file will then open in Word.


All the best,

Cearbhall

m +353 (0)833323487 Ph: _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@...


-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Cavanaugh
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2022 7:19 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] for the third time, filling out a PDF

Sarah,
To answer your question, I just tried opening said file in Firefox, and it doesn't see the edit fields. My machine doesn't give me the option by default to open the file in Word, just Adobe Reader and the two browsers, Edge and Firefox. I actually thought I could get by with only using Firefox to read PDF files, but when I thought I needed to fill out the form I'm currently using as a test case a couple months ago, that's when I downloaded Adobe Reader.
Gene, to answer your question about System Access, I could try that to use this PDF, but I've never installed it, and I'm not sure SA To Go works with Edge. Microsoft has announced that Internet Explorer will not work on Windows 10 within the next month I believe, so that may work to fill out the PDF in question, but that's not going to be a long term solution.

On 5/18/22, Faithville via groups.io <faithville@...> wrote:
Use adobeacrobat reader dc to fill out pdf forms.

On 5/18/2022 2:46 AM, Gabriele Battaglia via groups.io wrote:

Reply to Bob Cavanaugh's message, wrote on 18/05/2022 at 06:17:


Hi. To me it's not possible. At least I've never find a consistant
way to do it.

Gabe.















--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


Re: for the third time, filling out a PDF

Cearbhall O'Meadhra
 

Bob,

I have watched the messages all day and held back while so many were answering you.

Firstly, Firefox cannot read PDF files. You need either edge or Chrome or Adobe.

If you want to open the .pdf file in Word then use the context menu to open it with word.

Here are the steps:
1. locate the file you want to open;
2. Press shift + f10 or the application key beside the right control key;
3. Press "n" twice until you hear "Open With";
5. press right arrow and down until you hear "Microsoft Word" and press enter.

The file will then open in Word.


All the best,

Cearbhall

m +353 (0)833323487 Ph: _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@...

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Cavanaugh
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2022 7:19 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] for the third time, filling out a PDF

Sarah,
To answer your question, I just tried opening said file in Firefox, and it doesn't see the edit fields. My machine doesn't give me the option by default to open the file in Word, just Adobe Reader and the two browsers, Edge and Firefox. I actually thought I could get by with only using Firefox to read PDF files, but when I thought I needed to fill out the form I'm currently using as a test case a couple months ago, that's when I downloaded Adobe Reader.
Gene, to answer your question about System Access, I could try that to use this PDF, but I've never installed it, and I'm not sure SA To Go works with Edge. Microsoft has announced that Internet Explorer will not work on Windows 10 within the next month I believe, so that may work to fill out the PDF in question, but that's not going to be a long term solution.

On 5/18/22, Faithville via groups.io <faithville@...> wrote:
Use adobeacrobat reader dc to fill out pdf forms.

On 5/18/2022 2:46 AM, Gabriele Battaglia via groups.io wrote:

Reply to Bob Cavanaugh's message, wrote on 18/05/2022 at 06:17:


Hi. To me it's not possible. At least I've never find a consistant
way to do it.

Gabe.















--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


Re: NVDA and How Buttons Are Announced

Gene
 

But you are still getting all the information.  I haven't compared other screen-readers but I believe this is expected behavior in NVDA.  JAWS allows you to set whether you hear the kind of control before other information or other information first.  It is not determined by the web page. 

IN NVDA, if I tab to a link that is visited, I hear the link spoken before visited.  If I up or down arrow to a visited link, I hear visited link before the link is spoken.

In other words, these variations are screen-reader variations and aren't determined by the web page.

Gene

On 5/18/2022 2:16 PM, Marc Grossman wrote:

Yes I am a daily screen reader user and am familiar with WCAG. I wholeheartedly agree with both of you that form controls should announce the type of control, the state of the control, and the label on the control. Your references to WCAG guidelines are spot on.

My main question can be boiled down to this. If I navigate with arrow keys to the control, it is announced by NVDA as "Button Close" but If I navigate to the control with the tab key or the letter B, NVDA announces as "Close Button."

 

The engineer has informed me that it was coded to meet WCAG guidelines and another colleague believes that this is the expected behavior. I do not like to necessarily make comparisons to other assistive tech but in this case I do think it is relevant. Jaws and VoiceOver both announce the control as "Close Button" regardless of how focus is navigated to the control.

Was just wondering if that sounds correct? If so, is there any documentation to inform others on how NVDA handles form controls, specifically buttons.

Thanks



Re: NVDA and How Buttons Are Announced

Marc Grossman
 

Yes I am a daily screen reader user and am familiar with WCAG. I wholeheartedly agree with both of you that form controls should announce the type of control, the state of the control, and the label on the control. Your references to WCAG guidelines are spot on.

My main question can be boiled down to this. If I navigate with arrow keys to the control, it is announced by NVDA as "Button Close" but If I navigate to the control with the tab key or the letter B, NVDA announces as "Close Button."

 

The engineer has informed me that it was coded to meet WCAG guidelines and another colleague believes that this is the expected behavior. I do not like to necessarily make comparisons to other assistive tech but in this case I do think it is relevant. Jaws and VoiceOver both announce the control as "Close Button" regardless of how focus is navigated to the control.

Was just wondering if that sounds correct? If so, is there any documentation to inform others on how NVDA handles form controls, specifically buttons.

Thanks

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