Date   

Re: for the third time, filling out a PDF

Gene
 

Yes, you can go into forms mode and tab around.  You can't tab in browse mode nor enter text in the correct places.  NVDA doesn't work correctly with Acrobat when filling out this form nor the 1040 form Brian sent. 

Gene

On 5/19/2022 8:47 PM, Chris Smart wrote:
With Acrobat Reader DC, I was able to press NVDA+Space on the first edit field to go into Focus Mode, type my first name in the field, then tab through and hear all other fields. I didn't bother filling them out.
I didn't examine the form in detail, but there appear to be ten unlabeled checkboxes at the end. If I had examined those in browse Mode, I may have been able to determine what they were fore, but I did not hear that as I tabbed through them.

But, yes, I was able to hear the names of and fill in edit fields as I tabbed.

I also tried Jaws, and the overall experience was smoother, but I am also more familiar with that screenreader.

So yes, I am quite confident I would be able to fill out that form and email it back.
Chris









Re: for the third time, filling out a PDF

Gene
 

Also, and I didn't make this clear in my last message, when I am in browse mode, get to an edit field, press enter to write, since I have automatic switching off, and write, I don't see any text.  Whether I am writing somewhere else or nowhere, I don't know,  I suspect that browse mode isn't lining up with the underlying page.

Also, on my windows 7 machine, the form works properly in Adobe.  It appears there is something in Windows 10 and 11 that keeps NVDA from working properly with some or perhaps all fillable Adobe documents using Adobe. 

I changed all settings for UIA events and that accomplished nothing.  It appears something needs to be changed in NVDA to allow it to work properly with fillable PDF forms using Adobe.

Gene

On 5/19/2022 8:41 PM, Gene via groups.io wrote:
Here are my results using the form you linked to.

You may be entering text when you turn browse mode off but not where you think you are.  Browse mode isn't lining up with the underlying document.
If you turn browse mode off, tab to an edit field and write something, you can read it.

I also can't tab around the document you sent unless browse mode is off.  Being in browse mode, I should be able to up and down arrow and tab.

I tried JAWS and it works properly with the form.

System Access doesn't work properly with this form.  We don't know if it will with the specific form you are using.  You can try it or JAWS.

Just to fill out the form, you will have to learn little or almost nothing about JAWS.

Gene
On 5/19/2022 7:07 PM, Bob Cavanaugh wrote:
Have you tried any of Brian's forms, and how are they working for you?
The form I'm trying to fill out is one that I'm not sure if I can post
a link to publicly, as it's a form I need to fill out in order to
dispute a credit card transaction. The other form I've been using to
test is a training agreement I was sent from an instructor of a class
I took years ago, and I doubt is publicly accessible. The form I've
been testing with before downloading Brian's forms is at
https://nwaba.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/sal_fillable_lending_form_2019_08_22_final.pdf

On 5/19/22, Nermin via groups.io <voy44@...> wrote:
Hi, Bob,


Is there a link to the file you're trying to fill out?

Don't make assumptions, just because the files in question act the same
way for you.

What if the file you are having issues with works on my system?


Regards,

Nermin



















Re: for the third time, filling out a PDF

Chris Smart
 

With Acrobat Reader DC, I was able to press NVDA+Space on the first edit field to go into Focus Mode, type my first name in the field, then tab through and hear all other fields. I didn't bother filling them out.
I didn't examine the form in detail, but there appear to be ten unlabeled checkboxes at the end. If I had examined those in browse Mode, I may have been able to determine what they were fore, but I did not hear that as I tabbed through them.

But, yes, I was able to hear the names of and fill in edit fields as I tabbed.

I also tried Jaws, and the overall experience was smoother, but I am also more familiar with that screenreader.

So yes, I am quite confident I would be able to fill out that form and email it back.
Chris


Re: for the third time, filling out a PDF

Gene
 

Here are my results using the form you linked to.

You may be entering text when you turn browse mode off but not where you think you are.  Browse mode isn't lining up with the underlying document.
If you turn browse mode off, tab to an edit field and write something, you can read it.

I also can't tab around the document you sent unless browse mode is off.  Being in browse mode, I should be able to up and down arrow and tab.

I tried JAWS and it works properly with the form.

System Access doesn't work properly with this form.  We don't know if it will with the specific form you are using.  You can try it or JAWS.

Just to fill out the form, you will have to learn little or almost nothing about JAWS.

Gene

On 5/19/2022 7:07 PM, Bob Cavanaugh wrote:
Have you tried any of Brian's forms, and how are they working for you?
The form I'm trying to fill out is one that I'm not sure if I can post
a link to publicly, as it's a form I need to fill out in order to
dispute a credit card transaction. The other form I've been using to
test is a training agreement I was sent from an instructor of a class
I took years ago, and I doubt is publicly accessible. The form I've
been testing with before downloading Brian's forms is at
https://nwaba.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/sal_fillable_lending_form_2019_08_22_final.pdf

On 5/19/22, Nermin via groups.io <voy44@...> wrote:
Hi, Bob,


Is there a link to the file you're trying to fill out?

Don't make assumptions, just because the files in question act the same
way for you.

What if the file you are having issues with works on my system?


Regards,

Nermin








Re: NVDA2022.1RC2 Silent Start Button?

Quentin Christensen
 

Glad you got to the bottom of it - hopefully you can get that explorer software to work (or get the dev to update it at least).

All the best

Quentin.

On Fri, May 20, 2022 at 9:27 AM Jason Bratcher <imcoocoo@...> wrote:
Yes. After getting the update, I even did a shut down by accident to
force me to cold start away, lol!
(Windows+X, U, U).
Fast fingers...
I may need to write the developer of a piece of software called Explorer
Patcher just to let him know about this
(that his Windows 10 taskbar code writing causes this hiccup in NVDA).
But switching the taskbar style to Windows 11 and NVDA behaves perfect.
I've just been so used to the Windows 10 taskbar for so long that the 11
one feels funky.
(I.E., the user-promoted notification area only lets you move through
its items when you use left or up arrow keys.
To see the other notification items, you're forced to right arrow
(Whereas in Windows 10 you could actually use all 4 arrow keys to move
equally among the notifications..

Even tried a System restore just to be sure I reboot.
Jason Bratcher







--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Re: how to fix pronouncing abbreviations in NVDA?

Quentin Christensen
 

Oh I didn't necessarily mean "try to be clever" sarcastically.  There are plenty of good examples of algorithms deciphering some complex meaning out of something.  In the case of abbreviations, it's tricky both because there can be multiple meanings of any given abbreviation and how do you know exactly which one is being referred to, and there is often not enough context to determine, even if the synthesizer was programmed to be able to tell.  I don't *think* any of them are, but in any case, reading with "say all" could theoretically work, but if you are moving word by word, then all the synthesizer would be passed is "Dr." - without any surrounding text, it's impossible to know if the meaning is "Drive" (as in the street type) or "Doctor", so in that case, it is usually better to just read the two letters (with or without the dot depending on punctuation).

The thing which makes it particularly frustrating, is that there is no way to tell the synthesizer what you want - whether you want it to make those guesses about meaning or not.  It would be really great if there was a flag we could pass it which said "make your best guess as to meaning" or "simply read the exact text passed and do not change anything" - at least if that was the case we could add an option to the voice settings and users could make their own decision.

As it is, all we can do now is use the speech dictionary to override what gets sent to the synthesizer to try to correct assumptions if they are wrong.

Even in the case of numbers, yes we know users want more control over that, and we do have at least one open issue for it, and it should be theoretically possible (I haven't looked at what technical blockers there are currently, if any) - but again, all we can do is give you the opportunity to make a blanket ruling about how you want numbers pronounced.  We can't choose, if it's a zip / post code do this, if it's a phone number, do that, if it's my bank balance (well ok, it's going to read single digits for that anyway! *grin*)...

Quentin.

On Fri, May 20, 2022 at 9:05 AM Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
On Thu, May 19, 2022 at 06:28 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
NVDA passes the information on to the synthesizer, as it sees it ("sd" or "SD" in this case), it is up to the synth to work out how to pronounce it and unfortunately they often try to be clever and work out what abbreviations are rather than simply saying what is presented.
-
Quentin,

Not to argue with you (as what you say is accurate), but I don't consider it "being clever" for a synth to try to work out what unpronouncable character sequences might mean, and pronounce the meaning, rather than always doing a character by character reading.

To me, any of the 2-character US State abbreviations are more likely to make the most sense when announced as their state names rather than the two characters.  There are, of course, exceptions.

We see the same sort of thing when it comes to numbers.  I'd rather hear fifteen pronounced as such rather than one five.  But there are definitely contexts where huge numbers are in constant use where it's more handy to have them announced digit-by-digit, which can be achieved, but that would be the exception case rather than the rule when handed to something to pronounce.  

And, of course, context always matters.  In the case of numbers, US ZIP Codes as well as Social Security Numbers are never pronounced by human readers as a numeric value, but as a digit sequence.

Synth writers are trying to apply certain rules about what to pronounce how, and when, based on how it's generally done by most speakers.  Mistakes are, of course, inevitable, and that's the beauty of dictionaries to be able to handle these mistakes on a case-by-case or, in the case of regular expressions, class-by-class, basis.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

You can't crush ideas by suppressing them. You can only crush them by ignoring them.
     ~ Ursula LeGuin, The Dispossessed



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Re: for the third time, filling out a PDF

Bob Cavanaugh
 

Have you tried any of Brian's forms, and how are they working for you?
The form I'm trying to fill out is one that I'm not sure if I can post
a link to publicly, as it's a form I need to fill out in order to
dispute a credit card transaction. The other form I've been using to
test is a training agreement I was sent from an instructor of a class
I took years ago, and I doubt is publicly accessible. The form I've
been testing with before downloading Brian's forms is at
https://nwaba.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/sal_fillable_lending_form_2019_08_22_final.pdf

On 5/19/22, Nermin via groups.io <voy44@...> wrote:
Hi, Bob,


Is there a link to the file you're trying to fill out?

Don't make assumptions, just because the files in question act the same
way for you.

What if the file you are having issues with works on my system?


Regards,

Nermin







Re: NVDA2022.1RC2 Silent Start Button?

Jason Bratcher
 

Yes. After getting the update, I even did a shut down by accident to force me to cold start away, lol!
(Windows+X, U, U).
Fast fingers...
I may need to write the developer of a piece of software called Explorer Patcher just to let him know about this
(that his Windows 10 taskbar code writing causes this hiccup in NVDA).
But switching the taskbar style to Windows 11 and NVDA behaves perfect.
I've just been so used to the Windows 10 taskbar for so long that the 11 one feels funky.
(I.E., the user-promoted notification area only lets you move through its items when you use left or up arrow keys.
To see the other notification items, you're forced to right arrow
(Whereas in Windows 10 you could actually use all 4 arrow keys to move equally among the notifications..

Even tried a System restore just to be sure I reboot.
Jason Bratcher


Re: Windows mail with NVDA usable?

 

On Thu, May 19, 2022 at 06:15 PM, Arlene wrote:
I tried installing thunderbird on my system and I could not put gmail on it.
-
Arlene,

I can't, and won't, argue about your personal experience.  But I will say, from vast personal and professional experience, that Thunderbird and Gmail play perfectly well together in every instance where I've set the two up with each other.

No modern email client which remains in support, of which Thunderbird is but one, can afford to be either completely incompatible with or difficult to configure with Google Mail.

As a general statement, there is no issue between Thunderbird and Gmail.  It handles the whole OAUTH setup process in a manner very similar to the way Outlook does.  And, of course, Thunderbird is probably the most reliably accessible full-featured email client other than Outlook.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

You can't crush ideas by suppressing them. You can only crush them by ignoring them.
     ~ Ursula LeGuin, The Dispossessed


Re: how to fix pronouncing abbreviations in NVDA?

 

On Thu, May 19, 2022 at 06:28 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
NVDA passes the information on to the synthesizer, as it sees it ("sd" or "SD" in this case), it is up to the synth to work out how to pronounce it and unfortunately they often try to be clever and work out what abbreviations are rather than simply saying what is presented.
-
Quentin,

Not to argue with you (as what you say is accurate), but I don't consider it "being clever" for a synth to try to work out what unpronouncable character sequences might mean, and pronounce the meaning, rather than always doing a character by character reading.

To me, any of the 2-character US State abbreviations are more likely to make the most sense when announced as their state names rather than the two characters.  There are, of course, exceptions.

We see the same sort of thing when it comes to numbers.  I'd rather hear fifteen pronounced as such rather than one five.  But there are definitely contexts where huge numbers are in constant use where it's more handy to have them announced digit-by-digit, which can be achieved, but that would be the exception case rather than the rule when handed to something to pronounce.  

And, of course, context always matters.  In the case of numbers, US ZIP Codes as well as Social Security Numbers are never pronounced by human readers as a numeric value, but as a digit sequence.

Synth writers are trying to apply certain rules about what to pronounce how, and when, based on how it's generally done by most speakers.  Mistakes are, of course, inevitable, and that's the beauty of dictionaries to be able to handle these mistakes on a case-by-case or, in the case of regular expressions, class-by-class, basis.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

You can't crush ideas by suppressing them. You can only crush them by ignoring them.
     ~ Ursula LeGuin, The Dispossessed


NVDA Remote Add-On Review and Demonstration

TheeQuinn Public
 
Edited

Hey everybody it's me again! I am back and with a big upload too. It took me two days to record, edit, and write the transcript so hopefully you guys will find it helpful. I took a break from my html series to bring you a add-on review. This is a review and demonstration of the NVDA Remote Access add-on. Enjoy! And remember that your feedback is much appreciated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NatxdIc_K0I 


Re: Windows mail with NVDA usable?

Gene
 

I don't know what problem you had.  Thunderbird has a good utility for automatically finding information needed to create accounts if you furnish usernames and passwords. 

I don't know how many people  have the problem of messages being left to pile up on servers, but its something people who use the program should be aware of and check when they first start using it.

Since I have the problem, others should check when they first start using the program to see if they do.  I can't generalize from my experience and I may have written as though I was.  But what I meant to say is that since I have this behavior, people should check.

Gene

On 5/19/2022 5:15 PM, Arlene wrote:

, I use windows mail on here with my gmail account.  It’s not a problem. I do from time to time check mail on the gmail site so it’s not kept on the server.  I tried installing thunderbird on my system and I could not put gmail on it.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Gene
Sent: May 19, 2022 2:41 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Windows mail with NVDA usable?

 

What problems are you having?  If you are referring to the Mail app, for use with Windows 10 and 11, it is usable, but I think it is a bad idea to use it and I would strongly recommend Thunderbird instead.

I tried using it with GMail and, though deleting messages in the app means they no longer show in the app, they are still left on the server.  Over time, you would have an enormous number of messages left in GMail, I believe still in the inbox.  Wherever they are, they are just taking up space.

Since I only tried the program with GMail, I don't know what might happen with other servers but I wouldn't want to take the chance.

If you still want to try the app, let us know what problems you are having and we can discuss them.  For example, f9 is the command to download messages.

Gene

On 5/19/2022 3:24 AM, Daniel Sommerfeld wrote:

Hi all.


I have tried Windows mail with NVDA and it seems to me, that it is not usable.


Is it really not usable or is that a microsoft app thing. Means, do i have to download it from a different source to get an accessible version?


Regards

Daniel






.

 

 

.


Re: how to fix pronouncing abbreviations in NVDA?

Quentin Christensen
 

NVDA passes the information on to the synthesizer, as it sees it ("sd" or "SD" in this case), it is up to the synth to work out how to pronounce it and unfortunately they often try to be clever and work out what abbreviations are rather than simply saying what is presented.

Using a different voice or synthesizer might give a different result, but the way to absolutely override it is, as others have indicated, with the speech dictionary.  We posted a walkthrough of creating an entry for exactly this reason in our In-Process blog last year: https://www.nvaccess.org/post/in-process-16th-april-2021/#Dictionaries (The steps haven't changed).

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Fri, May 20, 2022 at 8:15 AM Tyler Spivey via groups.io <tspivey=pcdesk.net@groups.io> wrote:
What synthesizer are you using?

On 5/19/2022 2:20 PM, Sue J. Ward wrote:
>   Hello. I was wondering whenever NVDA comes across abbreviations it
> kind of mispronounces them. For example instead of sd, it says South
> Dakota. I want it to say the letters  sd even if sd is in all caps.
> Another one is instead of HP, it says horse power. It is quite annoying.
> If I come across these types of things I have to go back and double
> check as to what I am reading, I would really like to fix this. How
> would I do this since I did read something about this in the speech
> dictionaries, how would I access them since I don't have anything with
> touch jesters, I use the keyboard for everything. Any help you could
> send my way would be great. Thank you.
>
>
>
>
>







--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Re: NVDA2022.1RC2 Silent Start Button?

Quentin Christensen
 

Hi Jason,

Have you rebooted the PC since updating to RC2?  We often see "odd" quirks like this just after updating NVDA and before restarting the PC..

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Fri, May 20, 2022 at 7:23 AM Jason Bratcher <imcoocoo@...> wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]
[Reason: Using Windows 11 21H2 (x64) build 22000.675 Home Edition]

I just installed RC2 of 2022.1.
Upon focusing the Start button, NVDA says nothing and goes silent.
In addition, if I shift+Tab back to the desktop listview of icons, it says nothing, but focus indeed moves between them.
Highlighting an icon and right-clicking it for a menu still has NVDA silent.
RC1 did not do this on my HP DQ1038WM with the Intel(R) Core(TM) i3-1005G1 CPU @ 1.20GHz, 1201 Mhz, 2 Core(s), 4 Logical Processor(s).
Strange indeed.
But when I then focus back onto the taskbar/notification area,
NvDA starts talking again, as if nothing was wrong.



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Re: Windows mail with NVDA usable?

Arlene
 

Yes there is!  You have to go into follders. Then arrow to deleted.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Peter Beasley
Sent: May 19, 2022 6:36 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Windows mail with NVDA usable?

 

My only problem with Windows Mail is that there is not a deleted items folder.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Chris Mullins
Sent: 19 May 2022 11:40
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Windows mail with NVDA usable?

 

Hi

I use the Mail app in Windows 10 and it is usable but rather less than feature rich.  If you are happy with something basic it will be OK.

Cheers

                Chris

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Luke Davis
Sent: 19 May 2022 09:44
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Windows mail with NVDA usable?

 

Daniel Sommerfeld wrote:

 

> I have tried Windows mail with NVDA and it seems to me, that it is not

> usable.

 

It depends on what you are trying to do with it.

For very basic reading, writing, and forwarding, it works well enough.

 

Some of its folder actions, selection options, etc., are not so very accessible.

 

Better to use Thunderbird or Outlook if you can.

 

Luke

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Re: Windows mail with NVDA usable?

Arlene
 

, I use windows mail on here with my gmail account.  It’s not a problem. I do from time to time check mail on the gmail site so it’s not kept on the server.  I tried installing thunderbird on my system and I could not put gmail on it.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Gene
Sent: May 19, 2022 2:41 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Windows mail with NVDA usable?

 

What problems are you having?  If you are referring to the Mail app, for use with Windows 10 and 11, it is usable, but I think it is a bad idea to use it and I would strongly recommend Thunderbird instead.

I tried using it with GMail and, though deleting messages in the app means they no longer show in the app, they are still left on the server.  Over time, you would have an enormous number of messages left in GMail, I believe still in the inbox.  Wherever they are, they are just taking up space.

Since I only tried the program with GMail, I don't know what might happen with other servers but I wouldn't want to take the chance.

If you still want to try the app, let us know what problems you are having and we can discuss them.  For example, f9 is the command to download messages.

Gene

On 5/19/2022 3:24 AM, Daniel Sommerfeld wrote:

Hi all.


I have tried Windows mail with NVDA and it seems to me, that it is not usable.


Is it really not usable or is that a microsoft app thing. Means, do i have to download it from a different source to get an accessible version?


Regards

Daniel






.

 

 


Re: how to fix pronouncing abbreviations in NVDA?

Tyler Spivey
 

What synthesizer are you using?

On 5/19/2022 2:20 PM, Sue J. Ward wrote:
 Hello. I was wondering whenever NVDA comes across abbreviations it kind of mispronounces them. For example instead of sd, it says South Dakota. I want it to say the letters  sd even if sd is in all caps. Another one is instead of HP, it says horse power. It is quite annoying. If I come across these types of things I have to go back and double check as to what I am reading, I would really like to fix this. How would I do this since I did read something about this in the speech dictionaries, how would I access them since I don't have anything with touch jesters, I use the keyboard for everything. Any help you could send my way would be great. Thank you.


Re: how to fix pronouncing abbreviations in NVDA?

Gene
 

What I do in such cases is to open the default speech dictionary in the following way:
NVDA key n, then open preferences.
up arrow to speech dictionaries and press enter.
Press enter again to open the default dictionary.
Tab to the add button and press the space bar.
Type the abbreviation, all capitals if it is capitalized when you come across it, and then tab to the pronounced as field.
Type what you want said, like ssd
Tab to a field that says anywhere.  I think you will want whole word so the letters are only spoken when found by themselves as the abbreviation.  Down arrow in the field to whole word.  I haven't worked with abbreviations so I may be wrong about using whole word but you can see if the entries work properly.
Tab to and activate the OK button.
Tab to and activate the next OK button.
The dictionary will close and the entry will be made.
Let us know if you have problems.

Gene

On 5/19/2022 4:20 PM, Sue J. Ward wrote:
 Hello. I was wondering whenever NVDA comes across abbreviations it kind of mispronounces them. For example instead of sd, it says South Dakota. I want it to say the letters  sd even if sd is in all caps. Another one is instead of HP, it says horse power. It is quite annoying. If I come across these types of things I have to go back and double check as to what I am reading, I would really like to fix this. How would I do this since I did read something about this in the speech dictionaries, how would I access them since I don't have anything with touch jesters, I use the keyboard for everything. Any help you could send my way would be great. Thank you.







how to fix pronouncing abbreviations in NVDA?

Sue J. Ward
 

Hello. I was wondering whenever NVDA comes across abbreviations it kind of mispronounces them. For example instead of sd, it says South Dakota. I want it to say the letters sd even if sd is in all caps. Another one is instead of HP, it says horse power. It is quite annoying. If I come across these types of things I have to go back and double check as to what I am reading, I would really like to fix this. How would I do this since I did read something about this in the speech dictionaries, how would I access them since I don't have anything with touch jesters, I use the keyboard for everything. Any help you could send my way would be great. Thank you.


NVDA2022.1RC2 Silent Start Button?

Jason Bratcher
 
Edited

I just installed RC2 of 2022.1.
Upon focusing the Start button, NVDA says nothing and goes silent.
In addition, if I shift+Tab back to the desktop listview of icons, it says nothing, but focus indeed moves between them.
Highlighting an icon and right-clicking it for a menu still has NVDA silent.
RC1 did not do this on my HP DQ1038WM with the Intel(R) Core(TM) i3-1005G1 CPU @ 1.20GHz, 1201 Mhz, 2 Core(s), 4 Logical Processor(s).
Strange indeed.
But when I then focus back onto the taskbar/notification area,
NvDA starts talking again, as if nothing was wrong.

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