Date   

Re: Virtual review 21.06 add-on incompatible with NVDA 2022.1-no word from the developer and I contacted NV Access in error

Rui Fontes
 

It is already updated...

I am now the maintainer of that add-on...


Direct link for my GitHub, since it is not yet in the database...


https://github.com/ruifontes/virtualReview/releases/download/2022.05/virtualRevision-2022.05.nvda-addon


Best regards,

Rui Fontes
NVDA portuguese team


Às 19:34 de 27/05/2022, Louise Pfau escreveu:

Hi.  I checked the compatible add-ons page for virtual review, and it is incompatible with NVDA 2022.1.  The contact information listed for the developer is "Rui Batista ruiandrebatista@... and NVDA Addon Team".  I couldn't find contact information for "NVDA Addon Team", so I contacted NV Access in error at the general info E-mail thinking that was who was meant.  I won't share my correspondence with NV Access regarding this inquiry without permission.  I am not subscribed to the add-ons list since I am not a developer.  I have not heard from Rui Batista, but I don't know if virtual review will be updated.

Thanks,

Louise


Re: Virtual review 21.06 add-on incompatible with NVDA 2022.1-no word from the developer and I contacted NV Access in error

 

Here is the updated version of that add-on. Rui posted it yesterday. It is compatible with the current version of NVDA.


https://github.com/ruifontes/virtualReview/releases/download/2022.05/virtualRevision-2022.05.nvda-addon





On 5/27/2022 2:34 PM, Louise Pfau wrote:
Hi.  I checked the compatible add-ons page for virtual review, and it is incompatible with NVDA 2022.1.  The contact information listed for the developer is "Rui Batista ruiandrebatista@... and NVDA Addon Team".  I couldn't find contact information for "NVDA Addon Team", so I contacted NV Access in error at the general info E-mail thinking that was who was meant.  I won't share my correspondence with NV Access regarding this inquiry without permission.  I am not subscribed to the add-ons list since I am not a developer.  I have not heard from Rui Batista, but I don't know if virtual review will be updated.

Thanks,

Louise


Virtual review 21.06 add-on incompatible with NVDA 2022.1-no word from the developer and I contacted NV Access in error

Louise Pfau
 

Hi.  I checked the compatible add-ons page for virtual review, and it is incompatible with NVDA 2022.1.  The contact information listed for the developer is "Rui Batista ruiandrebatista@... and NVDA Addon Team".  I couldn't find contact information for "NVDA Addon Team", so I contacted NV Access in error at the general info E-mail thinking that was who was meant.  I won't share my correspondence with NV Access regarding this inquiry without permission.  I am not subscribed to the add-ons list since I am not a developer.  I have not heard from Rui Batista, but I don't know if virtual review will be updated.

Thanks,

Louise


Re: Please read before suggesting new add-ons or NVDA screen reader features: a contributor's assessment of 2022.1 and add-ons situation, open-source, anxiety, and burnout

Curtis Delzer
 

Gene is completely right, and the issue is also that upgrades bring new features hitherto not available, and upgrades aren't always up, they are down by no intention of the developer but by the nature of how things integrate from other sources such as the OS, the computer, hard drives, motherboards, type of memory; all must get along.

On 5/27/2022 10:56 AM, Gene wrote:
It seems to me that one problem is the myth that you must upgrade just because a new version of something comes out.  I consider that a third myth you didn't address.  It is related to the progress myth but I think it is also the result of users not being clearly told how to evaluate if they would benefit from a new version. 

If users knew that a lot of them could wait to upgrade until the add-on situation is resolved, that would take a lot of pressure off of developers. 

I think it is important to discuss how to decide if you would benefit from upgrading and assess the benefits of that against the benefits of maintaining access to current versions of add-ons. 

I'm not saying that people shouldn't upgrade.  I'm saying that a lot of people don't have to upgrade for a time while things get worked out and I suspect many people don't realize that.

Perhaps this should be discussed in the User Guide, in the training materials sold by NVDA and perhaps at the next NVDA con.  I'm not sure if I have the name quite right.

Discussion here might be helpful as well.

Whether people agree with me or not, I think discussing the question might be useful.

Gene

On 5/27/2022 11:05 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Dear NVDA community,

The following is something I usually do not post, nor it’s a style I rarely show in a public forum like this. But after consulting forum owners about the below content, I believe being honest and candid up front can serve many purposes: healing for me and the community, educational moment for everyone, and something to contemplate for a long time. While I present myself as a professional developer, one of the forum admins advised against it for the following content because you, as my friends and NVDA family members, have the right to know the thoughts going through my head these days. I also put a disclaimer that:

  1. First and foremost, I am a graduate student studying for his master’s degree in communication studies (rhetoric, persuasion and influence, mass media, organizations, teaching and public speaking) and just finished first year of study. As such, I approach the following from both academic and insider point of view.
  2. Some of what I say is strictly my own and does not represent the views of NV Access and contributors.

 

Let me start by giving a really honest assessment of the current situation with NVDA 2022.1 and add-on compatibility picture: messy, abundant miscommunication, ineffective coordination. If I’m to give a grade to this work, it’s a solid “D”. It didn’t earn a “Fail” because at least some of the most significant add-ons were updated prior to the release of NVDA 2022.1 this week. It didn’t earn a “C” (passing) because the overall work showed missed opportunities to improve communication and coordination.

 

First, I am a communication studies scholar in training. While I am not up to the level of doctoral students and professors, what I can say is that the overall work makes me shake my head. NV Access framed add-on breaking release as part of a “norm in software development” due to dependency updates and security (NV Access, 2022). But when we look at changes for developers section in NVDA 2022.1, the most notable change has to do with adoption of Python enumerations in control types facility. While Python does provide enumeration support (Python Software Foundation, 2022), it can break add-ons not written to take advantage of the new syntax. After a public outcry from add-on developers, NV Access decided to introduce a compatibility layer, effectively backtracking on control types refactor for now (Turner, 2022). This is one of the biggest factors in NVDA 2022.1 being delayed, with the other factor being security releases (NVDA 2021.3.x0.

 

Of these, the first factor caused most confusion for community members. While the community operates within the framework of “equal access to technology”, it is really centered on NV Access. NVDA’s own source code and About dialog states that “NVDA is developed by NV Access” (NVDA 2022.1 source code, 2022), a nonprofit promoting equal access to technology. While NV Access does promote third-party contributions and acknowledges the power of third-party add-ons written by developers, the overall structure still centers around NV Access. As such, as far as organizational structure is concerned, NV Access is seen as the leader and coordinator attempting to attract stakeholders.

 

Since NV Access is seen as a leader and coordinator, signals from the leader play a role in persuading the public and determining the reputation of a larger organization. “Leaders must communicate right”, writes MIT senior lecturer Elsbeth Johnson (Johnson, 2017). A missed or improper signal from organizational leaders can have destructive impact on members.

 

So where did the signals about add-on breaking release came from? Ultimately it stems from a “ever perpetuating myth of progress.” When we think of myths, we think of foundation stories and grand narratives that defines a society or a culture. A myth can also function to persuade the public about the status quo and a better future – the messaging from public health officials, for instance, is vaccination is our “way back to the days before the pandemic”. In a similar way, organizational and community myths can describe the status quo and an “idealized future”, made more powerful if community members share history, visions of the past, present, and future, and community boundaries (Rawlins, 2017). The myth of progress and change demonstrates this as communities must understand the need for change, or for that matter, a need for constantly changing things to keep up with others.

 

In the case of NV Access and the latest add-on breaking release, NV Access operated under the notion that it can make progress on equal access to technology by keeping dependencies and code up to date. While this leadership signal did work in 2020 when Python 2 was declared end of life (Python Software Foundation, 2020), when a major change was proposed and then backtracked in 2022, the myth of progress was shattered. This led to a different signal, way late in the development of NVDA 2022.1: we are listening. By then the community members were under the impression that add-ons must be edited to take advantage of control types refactor, and with that “change” gone, members found themselves asking, “why and what now?” NV Access seems to have learned from it, changing the strategy used to denote deprecations in NVDA 2022.2 alpha changelog.

 

But NV Access alone isn’t immune from criticism: members of the community played a “vital” role in causing mass confusion. Members of the community simply believed that NV Access and NVDA contributors must make changes, a form of “myth perpetuation.” In other words, NV Access, code contributors, add-on authors, users, and other stakeholders were unified under the assumption that progress is “strictly a good thing even if it can bring negative consequences if not managed right.” The keyword is “managed right” – while scholars can critique NV Access’s approach for add-on breaking release this year, unless specified in the documentation, organizations are not strictly run by a single person or an entity. If NVDA community promotes “equal access to technology” and centers their messaging on users, users, too bare responsibility for this messy situation. While people can also ask add-on authors to take responsibility (people are right in this statement), users who constantly ask screen reader developers, add-on authors, and community members  to make progress (in this case, progress on add-on compatibility) even if it leads to additional emotional labor and burnout are not immune from criticism. In this sense, I (the analyst and a member of the NVDA community) am not immune from criticism either due to my messaging about compatibility releases last year and downplaying the severity of the situation up until NVDA 2022.1 was finally released.

 

What could have made the compatibility messaging more effective and lasting was Python upgrades. In early 2021, NV Access, I, and several contributors actually worked on Python 3.8 upgrade, which ended in failure after discovering stack overflow problems. Since then, NV Access has decided to stay on Python 3.7 until the cause of the stack overflow (ctypes FFI (foreign function interface) issue, to be exact) is resolved. While the 2022.1 compatibility breaking release did emphasize control types refactor (using Python enumeration), the fact that we are staying on Python 3.7, coupled with the mixed messaging around control types refactor in 2021 and 2022 has diminished the “progress” aspect of these releases. Therefore, my biggest recommendation is to either hold off on compatibility breaking releases until 2024, or if Python upgrade or a major dependency upgrade is a must due to security and other factors, communicate things better.

 

Second, as some of you may have noticed, I kept asking add-ons community to do something about add-on compatibility and the messaging involved. This became more noticeable this week with the release of NVDA 2022.1, even going so far as offering to post add-on compatibility data on a repository on behalf of add-on authors. After thinking about it, I realized that some of this messaging was caused by anxiety and me sometimes being an “obsessive perfectionist,” leading to more stress and burnout. In short, I was operating under the assumption that I must find updates to add-ons that are marked by authors as compatible as quickly as possible, knowing that users wanted assurance that their favorite add-ons are compatible with latest changes. Also, because many of you receive add-on updates through Add-on Updater, I realized that I must act fast to get compatible add-on updates to hands of users as soon as possible. Coupled with the upcoming vacation, this led me to me “flying around” the community to get more add-on updates to you. In the midst of all this, yesterday I asked myself, “why can’t I let the add-on compatibility picture take shape by itself,” to which the answer was, “I have become an obsessed perfectionist,” which partly explains why I’ve been feeling anxious and burnout recently (graduate school did play some role in anxiety and burnout, but in the immediate context, obsession with getting more compatible add-ons out to you consumed me).

 

Third, I’m aware that folks want updated Clock and Calendar add-on, and am aware that you also want Extended Winamp update as well as I am the last person to work on it (last year). After thinking about it, I decided to stick with my original decision for the Clock add-on: discontinuation, hoping that someone will take care of it. As for Extended Winamp, after assessing the situation, I decided that it wasn’t worth it to release what really amounts to manifest edits. My (professional) answer is that I simply do not have time to continue maintaining these add-ons – as I communicated to everyone last year, these add-ons are now in the hands of the community.

 

My unfiltered answer: go ahead and take care of these add-ons yourselves. This is my way of saying, “I’m done with these add-ons,” and I SERIOUSLY DO NOT HAVE TIME to maintain them. I have asked the community for months to find new maintainers for these add-ons to no vail, and the fact that NVDA 2022.1 was marketed as a compatibility breaking release caused more anxiety for me and community members. I have offered (or rather, threatened) to release compatibility updates if no-one stepped up by the time NVDA 2022.1 was finalized (I say “threatened” to highlight what happens wen a person becomes so desperate to a point where he/she/they lose their sense of self and reality). I will not go into additional stress caused by graduate school and performing duties for my school as it will take a long post to describe it (anyone who went through master’s or doctoral degrees can understand what I’m talking about).

 

I realize that this is a really shocking response from someone passionate about add-ons, but I believe that shocks sometimes work to change a community. But I want you, my beloved NVDA community members, to know why I’m saying this before I disconnect from NVDA community for a while: to educate yourselves on the dark side of open-source development and the resulting physical and psychological effects. Among the articles on this subject, the following should offer a glimpse into what I’m actually feeling right now:

Why Open-Source Developers Are Burning Out | by Clive Thompson | Better Programming

 

While I don’t agree fully with the economics section, the article describes in part what I’m actually feeling. The anxiety from the just released NVDA 2022.1 changes for add-ons community, coupled with graduate school education and upcoming life events, put a strain on what I can do physically and mentally for the NVDA community.

 

Before I disconnect, besides needing to recharge, here is the real reason for my vacation: I am at a point in graduate education where I must carefully choose what to study and where to go to refine my skills for the next five years or so; I am, of course, talking about Ph.D. applications (for fall 2023). Anyone who looked into and experienced doctoral programs should recognize what I’m saying – you must meet good dissertation supervisor in a supportive community that values your humanness, teaching and research skills, and networking opportunities in order to succeed as a scholar. When I began my current M.A. (master of arts) program, I knew that researching Ph.D. programs is not a joking matter, and there will come a day when NVDA development (both the screen reader and add-ons) can actually become a roadblock. In other words, I can fully disclose that I’ve been feeling a smaller version of stress and burnout since last summer; thankfully I was able to put my “obsessive perfectionist” attitude to good use by trying to persuade Microsoft to consider accessibility feedback with Windows 11. Not this time – I must recharge in order to prepare for long-term life goals (I hope what you read above (going into scholar mode) tells you what I hope to become five to ten years down the road; and this time, I will ask for pay as a consultant).

 

As I close my “NVDA development lab” for a while, I humbly state what I thought was unthinkable to say until now: I need help, I need freedom from the perpetual myth of progress and change, I need help in overcoming the obsessive perfectionist attitude I found myself in, and I need a way to (finally) leave NVDA community in more positive terms. We (the NVDA community) must recognize that not all progress is beneficial, we must work on a solution that does not bring down the reputation of NVDA, and we must get away from the attitude that developers are superheroes. I ask and plead with each and every one of you to consider the effects of stress and burnout, learn to critically analyze messages from organizations, and realize that we are collectively responsible for the messy affair we found ourselves in and work together on ways to move forward. If we do not critically analyze the situation, we will witness increasing skill and resource drain.

 

One more recommendation (or rather, something to do or not do): throughout June 2022, please do not suggest new add-ons or new NVDA screen reader features. Please use that month as a period of reflection throughout the NVDA community. Please do not (ever) contact me throughout June if your question or comment has anything to do with NVDA and/or add-ons (not just Add-on Updater and Windows App Essentials, but others are also off-limits that month) – I want to talk about something completely different that month. Feel free to contact me if you have Ph.D. program recommendations (specifically, communication studies), want to talk about public speaking, or need advice on graduate school and other academic endeavors (I’m offering to coach people (especially college students) public speaking and impromptu speaking skills).

 

Thank you.

 

References:

Localized Myth: Creating and Maintaining Persuasive Power | enculturation

How to Communicate Clearly During Organizational Change (hbr.org)

NV Access | In-Process March 21st 2022

nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io | We listened, re-introducing controlTypes aliases.

 

Have a safe and healthy June.

Cheers,

Joseph


-- 
Curtis Delzer
H.S.
K6VFO
 Rialto, CA
curtis@...


Re: Please read before suggesting new add-ons or NVDA screen reader features: a contributor's assessment of 2022.1 and add-ons situation, open-source, anxiety, and burnout

Gene
 

It seems to me that one problem is the myth that you must upgrade just because a new version of something comes out.  I consider that a third myth you didn't address.  It is related to the progress myth but I think it is also the result of users not being clearly told how to evaluate if they would benefit from a new version. 

If users knew that a lot of them could wait to upgrade until the add-on situation is resolved, that would take a lot of pressure off of developers. 

I think it is important to discuss how to decide if you would benefit from upgrading and assess the benefits of that against the benefits of maintaining access to current versions of add-ons. 

I'm not saying that people shouldn't upgrade.  I'm saying that a lot of people don't have to upgrade for a time while things get worked out and I suspect many people don't realize that.

Perhaps this should be discussed in the User Guide, in the training materials sold by NVDA and perhaps at the next NVDA con.  I'm not sure if I have the name quite right.

Discussion here might be helpful as well.

Whether people agree with me or not, I think discussing the question might be useful.

Gene

On 5/27/2022 11:05 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Dear NVDA community,

The following is something I usually do not post, nor it’s a style I rarely show in a public forum like this. But after consulting forum owners about the below content, I believe being honest and candid up front can serve many purposes: healing for me and the community, educational moment for everyone, and something to contemplate for a long time. While I present myself as a professional developer, one of the forum admins advised against it for the following content because you, as my friends and NVDA family members, have the right to know the thoughts going through my head these days. I also put a disclaimer that:

  1. First and foremost, I am a graduate student studying for his master’s degree in communication studies (rhetoric, persuasion and influence, mass media, organizations, teaching and public speaking) and just finished first year of study. As such, I approach the following from both academic and insider point of view.
  2. Some of what I say is strictly my own and does not represent the views of NV Access and contributors.

 

Let me start by giving a really honest assessment of the current situation with NVDA 2022.1 and add-on compatibility picture: messy, abundant miscommunication, ineffective coordination. If I’m to give a grade to this work, it’s a solid “D”. It didn’t earn a “Fail” because at least some of the most significant add-ons were updated prior to the release of NVDA 2022.1 this week. It didn’t earn a “C” (passing) because the overall work showed missed opportunities to improve communication and coordination.

 

First, I am a communication studies scholar in training. While I am not up to the level of doctoral students and professors, what I can say is that the overall work makes me shake my head. NV Access framed add-on breaking release as part of a “norm in software development” due to dependency updates and security (NV Access, 2022). But when we look at changes for developers section in NVDA 2022.1, the most notable change has to do with adoption of Python enumerations in control types facility. While Python does provide enumeration support (Python Software Foundation, 2022), it can break add-ons not written to take advantage of the new syntax. After a public outcry from add-on developers, NV Access decided to introduce a compatibility layer, effectively backtracking on control types refactor for now (Turner, 2022). This is one of the biggest factors in NVDA 2022.1 being delayed, with the other factor being security releases (NVDA 2021.3.x0.

 

Of these, the first factor caused most confusion for community members. While the community operates within the framework of “equal access to technology”, it is really centered on NV Access. NVDA’s own source code and About dialog states that “NVDA is developed by NV Access” (NVDA 2022.1 source code, 2022), a nonprofit promoting equal access to technology. While NV Access does promote third-party contributions and acknowledges the power of third-party add-ons written by developers, the overall structure still centers around NV Access. As such, as far as organizational structure is concerned, NV Access is seen as the leader and coordinator attempting to attract stakeholders.

 

Since NV Access is seen as a leader and coordinator, signals from the leader play a role in persuading the public and determining the reputation of a larger organization. “Leaders must communicate right”, writes MIT senior lecturer Elsbeth Johnson (Johnson, 2017). A missed or improper signal from organizational leaders can have destructive impact on members.

 

So where did the signals about add-on breaking release came from? Ultimately it stems from a “ever perpetuating myth of progress.” When we think of myths, we think of foundation stories and grand narratives that defines a society or a culture. A myth can also function to persuade the public about the status quo and a better future – the messaging from public health officials, for instance, is vaccination is our “way back to the days before the pandemic”. In a similar way, organizational and community myths can describe the status quo and an “idealized future”, made more powerful if community members share history, visions of the past, present, and future, and community boundaries (Rawlins, 2017). The myth of progress and change demonstrates this as communities must understand the need for change, or for that matter, a need for constantly changing things to keep up with others.

 

In the case of NV Access and the latest add-on breaking release, NV Access operated under the notion that it can make progress on equal access to technology by keeping dependencies and code up to date. While this leadership signal did work in 2020 when Python 2 was declared end of life (Python Software Foundation, 2020), when a major change was proposed and then backtracked in 2022, the myth of progress was shattered. This led to a different signal, way late in the development of NVDA 2022.1: we are listening. By then the community members were under the impression that add-ons must be edited to take advantage of control types refactor, and with that “change” gone, members found themselves asking, “why and what now?” NV Access seems to have learned from it, changing the strategy used to denote deprecations in NVDA 2022.2 alpha changelog.

 

But NV Access alone isn’t immune from criticism: members of the community played a “vital” role in causing mass confusion. Members of the community simply believed that NV Access and NVDA contributors must make changes, a form of “myth perpetuation.” In other words, NV Access, code contributors, add-on authors, users, and other stakeholders were unified under the assumption that progress is “strictly a good thing even if it can bring negative consequences if not managed right.” The keyword is “managed right” – while scholars can critique NV Access’s approach for add-on breaking release this year, unless specified in the documentation, organizations are not strictly run by a single person or an entity. If NVDA community promotes “equal access to technology” and centers their messaging on users, users, too bare responsibility for this messy situation. While people can also ask add-on authors to take responsibility (people are right in this statement), users who constantly ask screen reader developers, add-on authors, and community members  to make progress (in this case, progress on add-on compatibility) even if it leads to additional emotional labor and burnout are not immune from criticism. In this sense, I (the analyst and a member of the NVDA community) am not immune from criticism either due to my messaging about compatibility releases last year and downplaying the severity of the situation up until NVDA 2022.1 was finally released.

 

What could have made the compatibility messaging more effective and lasting was Python upgrades. In early 2021, NV Access, I, and several contributors actually worked on Python 3.8 upgrade, which ended in failure after discovering stack overflow problems. Since then, NV Access has decided to stay on Python 3.7 until the cause of the stack overflow (ctypes FFI (foreign function interface) issue, to be exact) is resolved. While the 2022.1 compatibility breaking release did emphasize control types refactor (using Python enumeration), the fact that we are staying on Python 3.7, coupled with the mixed messaging around control types refactor in 2021 and 2022 has diminished the “progress” aspect of these releases. Therefore, my biggest recommendation is to either hold off on compatibility breaking releases until 2024, or if Python upgrade or a major dependency upgrade is a must due to security and other factors, communicate things better.

 

Second, as some of you may have noticed, I kept asking add-ons community to do something about add-on compatibility and the messaging involved. This became more noticeable this week with the release of NVDA 2022.1, even going so far as offering to post add-on compatibility data on a repository on behalf of add-on authors. After thinking about it, I realized that some of this messaging was caused by anxiety and me sometimes being an “obsessive perfectionist,” leading to more stress and burnout. In short, I was operating under the assumption that I must find updates to add-ons that are marked by authors as compatible as quickly as possible, knowing that users wanted assurance that their favorite add-ons are compatible with latest changes. Also, because many of you receive add-on updates through Add-on Updater, I realized that I must act fast to get compatible add-on updates to hands of users as soon as possible. Coupled with the upcoming vacation, this led me to me “flying around” the community to get more add-on updates to you. In the midst of all this, yesterday I asked myself, “why can’t I let the add-on compatibility picture take shape by itself,” to which the answer was, “I have become an obsessed perfectionist,” which partly explains why I’ve been feeling anxious and burnout recently (graduate school did play some role in anxiety and burnout, but in the immediate context, obsession with getting more compatible add-ons out to you consumed me).

 

Third, I’m aware that folks want updated Clock and Calendar add-on, and am aware that you also want Extended Winamp update as well as I am the last person to work on it (last year). After thinking about it, I decided to stick with my original decision for the Clock add-on: discontinuation, hoping that someone will take care of it. As for Extended Winamp, after assessing the situation, I decided that it wasn’t worth it to release what really amounts to manifest edits. My (professional) answer is that I simply do not have time to continue maintaining these add-ons – as I communicated to everyone last year, these add-ons are now in the hands of the community.

 

My unfiltered answer: go ahead and take care of these add-ons yourselves. This is my way of saying, “I’m done with these add-ons,” and I SERIOUSLY DO NOT HAVE TIME to maintain them. I have asked the community for months to find new maintainers for these add-ons to no vail, and the fact that NVDA 2022.1 was marketed as a compatibility breaking release caused more anxiety for me and community members. I have offered (or rather, threatened) to release compatibility updates if no-one stepped up by the time NVDA 2022.1 was finalized (I say “threatened” to highlight what happens wen a person becomes so desperate to a point where he/she/they lose their sense of self and reality). I will not go into additional stress caused by graduate school and performing duties for my school as it will take a long post to describe it (anyone who went through master’s or doctoral degrees can understand what I’m talking about).

 

I realize that this is a really shocking response from someone passionate about add-ons, but I believe that shocks sometimes work to change a community. But I want you, my beloved NVDA community members, to know why I’m saying this before I disconnect from NVDA community for a while: to educate yourselves on the dark side of open-source development and the resulting physical and psychological effects. Among the articles on this subject, the following should offer a glimpse into what I’m actually feeling right now:

Why Open-Source Developers Are Burning Out | by Clive Thompson | Better Programming

 

While I don’t agree fully with the economics section, the article describes in part what I’m actually feeling. The anxiety from the just released NVDA 2022.1 changes for add-ons community, coupled with graduate school education and upcoming life events, put a strain on what I can do physically and mentally for the NVDA community.

 

Before I disconnect, besides needing to recharge, here is the real reason for my vacation: I am at a point in graduate education where I must carefully choose what to study and where to go to refine my skills for the next five years or so; I am, of course, talking about Ph.D. applications (for fall 2023). Anyone who looked into and experienced doctoral programs should recognize what I’m saying – you must meet good dissertation supervisor in a supportive community that values your humanness, teaching and research skills, and networking opportunities in order to succeed as a scholar. When I began my current M.A. (master of arts) program, I knew that researching Ph.D. programs is not a joking matter, and there will come a day when NVDA development (both the screen reader and add-ons) can actually become a roadblock. In other words, I can fully disclose that I’ve been feeling a smaller version of stress and burnout since last summer; thankfully I was able to put my “obsessive perfectionist” attitude to good use by trying to persuade Microsoft to consider accessibility feedback with Windows 11. Not this time – I must recharge in order to prepare for long-term life goals (I hope what you read above (going into scholar mode) tells you what I hope to become five to ten years down the road; and this time, I will ask for pay as a consultant).

 

As I close my “NVDA development lab” for a while, I humbly state what I thought was unthinkable to say until now: I need help, I need freedom from the perpetual myth of progress and change, I need help in overcoming the obsessive perfectionist attitude I found myself in, and I need a way to (finally) leave NVDA community in more positive terms. We (the NVDA community) must recognize that not all progress is beneficial, we must work on a solution that does not bring down the reputation of NVDA, and we must get away from the attitude that developers are superheroes. I ask and plead with each and every one of you to consider the effects of stress and burnout, learn to critically analyze messages from organizations, and realize that we are collectively responsible for the messy affair we found ourselves in and work together on ways to move forward. If we do not critically analyze the situation, we will witness increasing skill and resource drain.

 

One more recommendation (or rather, something to do or not do): throughout June 2022, please do not suggest new add-ons or new NVDA screen reader features. Please use that month as a period of reflection throughout the NVDA community. Please do not (ever) contact me throughout June if your question or comment has anything to do with NVDA and/or add-ons (not just Add-on Updater and Windows App Essentials, but others are also off-limits that month) – I want to talk about something completely different that month. Feel free to contact me if you have Ph.D. program recommendations (specifically, communication studies), want to talk about public speaking, or need advice on graduate school and other academic endeavors (I’m offering to coach people (especially college students) public speaking and impromptu speaking skills).

 

Thank you.

 

References:

Localized Myth: Creating and Maintaining Persuasive Power | enculturation

How to Communicate Clearly During Organizational Change (hbr.org)

NV Access | In-Process March 21st 2022

nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io | We listened, re-introducing controlTypes aliases.

 

Have a safe and healthy June.

Cheers,

Joseph



Re: a particular app

Gene
 

If you aren't using the add-on, move to the letter you want announced using the usual arrow keys.  Move the same way you move through a document at any time.  Then, when you are on the letter, press numpad 2 twice quickly.  The second time, you will hear the phonetic announcement of a letter, such as Charlie for c.

Gene

On 5/27/2022 11:58 AM, Betsy Grenevitch wrote:
I am missing some information here. Do you have to push the NVDA key to get this to work or does it not work in email? I have tried it a couple of times and have not been able to succeed. Thanks.


On 5/26/2022 4:18 PM, Monte Single rote:
Hi Bryce,

It is not an app;  it is a feature of nvda itself.
I use it often as my hearing  is not the best and I want  to know the exact spelling of a name or word.

So, say   I come across the word Banff, as in Banff national park in alberta.
And I think was that an "f" or an :s:?
I use the right arrow to land on the letter I am not sure of, and press the down arrow twice quickly.  That it,  you will hear  the alpha bravo equivalent.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of brice Mijares
Sent: May 26, 2022 12:36 PM
To: nvda <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [nvda] a particular app

I can't remember the name of this app where you could  use your arrow keys and hear the letters alpha for A B for bravo ETC. Would some kind sole refresh my memory of this app? Thank You.













Re: NVDA update notification doesn't appear automatically

Louise Pfau
 

On Thu, May 26, 2022 at 03:05 PM, Eduardo Fermiano Luccas wrote:
my notifications are also turned on, but please show me how you turned on notifications so we can be sure we're not talking about different things
I have both "Automatically check for updates" and "Notify for pending updates" checked in the General panel of the settings dialog.  I believe they are the defaults, and they worked before.

Thanks,

Louise


Re: a particular app

Betsy Grenevitch
 

OK, thanks. Ignore my previous message. I should have read further before writing.



On 5/26/2022 4:33 PM, Gene wrote:
It isn't the down arrow on the main keyboard.  It is 2 on the numpad.  I don't know the laptop command.  2 on the numpadd when used with NVDA reads the current character and pressing  it twice says the phonetic name such as Charlie for c.

Gene

On 5/26/2022 3:30 PM, brice Mijares wrote:
Monte, this does not work for me, it just moves me down 2 lines. I am starting to think I may have silenced NVDA and brought up narrator to get alpha, Bravo

charlie  for the letters. Thanks.

On 5/26/2022 1:18 PM, Monte Single wrote:
Hi Bryce,

It is not an app;  it is a feature of nvda itself.
I use it often as my hearing  is not the best and I want  to know the exact spelling of a name or word.

So, say   I come across the word Banff, as in Banff national park in alberta.
And I think was that an "f" or an :s:?
I use the right arrow to land on the letter I am not sure of, and press the down arrow twice quickly.  That it,  you will hear  the alpha bravo equivalent.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of brice Mijares
Sent: May 26, 2022 12:36 PM
To: nvda <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [nvda] a particular app

I can't remember the name of this app where you could  use your arrow keys and hear the letters alpha for A B for bravo ETC. Would some kind sole refresh my memory of this app? Thank You.

















--
Betsy Grenevitch 678-862-3876


Re: a particular app

Betsy Grenevitch
 

I am missing some information here. Do you have to push the NVDA key to get this to work or does it not work in email? I have tried it a couple of times and have not been able to succeed. Thanks.


On 5/26/2022 4:18 PM, Monte Single rote:

Hi Bryce,

It is not an app; it is a feature of nvda itself.
I use it often as my hearing is not the best and I want to know the exact spelling of a name or word.

So, say I come across the word Banff, as in Banff national park in alberta.
And I think was that an "f" or an :s:?
I use the right arrow to land on the letter I am not sure of, and press the down arrow twice quickly. That it, you will hear the alpha bravo equivalent.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of brice Mijares
Sent: May 26, 2022 12:36 PM
To: nvda <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [nvda] a particular app

I can't remember the name of this app where you could use your arrow keys and hear the letters alpha for A B for bravo ETC. Would some kind sole refresh my memory of this app? Thank You.









--
Betsy Grenevitch 678-862-3876


Please read before suggesting new add-ons or NVDA screen reader features: a contributor's assessment of 2022.1 and add-ons situation, open-source, anxiety, and burnout

 
Edited

Edit: I know that my message is circulating around. Let me make one thing clear: I do NOT work for NV Access.

Dear NVDA community,

The following is something I usually do not post, nor it’s a style I rarely show in a public forum like this. But after consulting forum owners about the below content, I believe being honest and candid up front can serve many purposes: healing for me and the community, educational moment for everyone, and something to contemplate for a long time. While I present myself as a professional developer, one of the forum admins advised against it for the following content because you, as my friends and NVDA family members, have the right to know the thoughts going through my head these days. I also put a disclaimer that:

  1. First and foremost, I am a graduate student studying for his master’s degree in communication studies (rhetoric, persuasion and influence, mass media, organizations, teaching and public speaking) and just finished first year of study. As such, I approach the following from both academic and insider point of view.
  2. Some of what I say is strictly my own and does not represent the views of NV Access and contributors (I do not work for NV Access).

 

Let me start by giving a really honest assessment of the current situation with NVDA 2022.1 and add-on compatibility picture: messy, abundant miscommunication, ineffective coordination. If I’m to give a grade to this work, it’s a solid “D”. It didn’t earn a “Fail” because at least some of the most significant add-ons were updated prior to the release of NVDA 2022.1 this week. It didn’t earn a “C” (passing) because the overall work showed missed opportunities to improve communication and coordination.

 

First, I am a communication studies scholar in training. While I am not up to the level of doctoral students and professors, what I can say is that the overall work makes me shake my head. NV Access framed add-on breaking release as part of a “norm in software development” due to dependency updates and security (NV Access, 2022). But when we look at changes for developers section in NVDA 2022.1, the most notable change has to do with adoption of Python enumerations in control types facility. While Python does provide enumeration support (Python Software Foundation, 2022), it can break add-ons not written to take advantage of the new syntax. After a public outcry from add-on developers, NV Access decided to introduce a compatibility layer, effectively backtracking on control types refactor for now (Turner, 2022). This is one of the biggest factors in NVDA 2022.1 being delayed, with the other factor being security releases (NVDA 2021.3.x0.

 

Of these, the first factor caused most confusion for community members. While the community operates within the framework of “equal access to technology”, it is really centered on NV Access. NVDA’s own source code and About dialog states that “NVDA is developed by NV Access” (NVDA 2022.1 source code, 2022), a nonprofit promoting equal access to technology. While NV Access does promote third-party contributions and acknowledges the power of third-party add-ons written by developers, the overall structure still centers around NV Access. As such, as far as organizational structure is concerned, NV Access is seen as the leader and coordinator attempting to attract stakeholders.

 

Since NV Access is seen as a leader and coordinator, signals from the leader play a role in persuading the public and determining the reputation of a larger organization. “Leaders must communicate right”, writes MIT senior lecturer Elsbeth Johnson (Johnson, 2017). A missed or improper signal from organizational leaders can have destructive impact on members.

 

So where did the signals about add-on breaking release came from? Ultimately it stems from a “ever perpetuating myth of progress.” When we think of myths, we think of foundation stories and grand narratives that defines a society or a culture. A myth can also function to persuade the public about the status quo and a better future – the messaging from public health officials, for instance, is vaccination is our “way back to the days before the pandemic”. In a similar way, organizational and community myths can describe the status quo and an “idealized future”, made more powerful if community members share history, visions of the past, present, and future, and community boundaries (Rawlins, 2017). The myth of progress and change demonstrates this as communities must understand the need for change, or for that matter, a need for constantly changing things to keep up with others.

 

In the case of NV Access and the latest add-on breaking release, NV Access operated under the notion that it can make progress on equal access to technology by keeping dependencies and code up to date. While this leadership signal did work in 2020 when Python 2 was declared end of life (Python Software Foundation, 2020), when a major change was proposed and then backtracked in 2022, the myth of progress was shattered. This led to a different signal, way late in the development of NVDA 2022.1: we are listening. By then the community members were under the impression that add-ons must be edited to take advantage of control types refactor, and with that “change” gone, members found themselves asking, “why and what now?” NV Access seems to have learned from it, changing the strategy used to denote deprecations in NVDA 2022.2 alpha changelog.

 

But NV Access alone isn’t immune from criticism: members of the community played a “vital” role in causing mass confusion. Members of the community simply believed that NV Access and NVDA contributors must make changes, a form of “myth perpetuation.” In other words, NV Access, code contributors, add-on authors, users, and other stakeholders were unified under the assumption that progress is “strictly a good thing even if it can bring negative consequences if managed right.” The keyword is “managed right” – while scholars can critique NV Access’s approach for add-on breaking release this year, unless specified in the documentation, organizations are not strictly run by a single person or an entity. If NVDA community promotes “equal access to technology” and centers their messaging on users, users, too bare responsibility for this messy situation. While people can also ask add-on authors to take responsibility (people are right in this statement), users who constantly ask screen reader developers, add-on authors, and community members  to make progress (in this case, progress on add-on compatibility) even if it leads to additional emotional labor and burnout are not immune from criticism. In this sense, I (the analyst and a member of the NVDA community) am not immune from criticism either due to my messaging about compatibility releases last year and downplaying the severity of the situation up until NVDA 2022.1 was finally released.

 

What could have made the compatibility messaging more effective and lasting was Python upgrades. In early 2021, NV Access, I, and several contributors actually worked on Python 3.8 upgrade, which ended in failure after discovering stack overflow problems. Since then, NV Access has decided to stay on Python 3.7 until the cause of the stack overflow (ctypes FFI (foreign function interface) issue, to be exact) is resolved. While the 2022.1 compatibility breaking release did emphasize control types refactor (using Python enumeration), the fact that we are staying on Python 3.7, coupled with the mixed messaging around control types refactor in 2021 and 2022 has diminished the “progress” aspect of these releases. Therefore, my biggest recommendation is to either hold off on compatibility breaking releases until 2024, or if Python upgrade or a major dependency upgrade is a must due to security and other factors, communicate things better.

 

Second, as some of you may have noticed, I kept asking add-ons community to do something about add-on compatibility and the messaging involved. This became more noticeable this week with the release of NVDA 2022.1, even going so far as offering to post add-on compatibility data on a repository on behalf of add-on authors. After thinking about it, I realized that some of this messaging was caused by anxiety and me sometimes being an “obsessive perfectionist,” leading to more stress and burnout. In short, I was operating under the assumption that I must find updates to add-ons that are marked by authors as compatible as quickly as possible, knowing that users wanted assurance that their favorite add-ons are compatible with latest changes. Also, because many of you receive add-on updates through Add-on Updater, I realized that I must act fast to get compatible add-on updates to hands of users as soon as possible. Coupled with the upcoming vacation, this led me to me “flying around” the community to get more add-on updates to you. In the midst of all this, yesterday I asked myself, “why can’t I let the add-on compatibility picture take shape by itself,” to which the answer was, “I have become an obsessed perfectionist,” which partly explains why I’ve been feeling anxious and burnout recently (graduate school did play some role in anxiety and burnout, but in the immediate context, obsession with getting more compatible add-ons out to you consumed me).

 

Third, I’m aware that folks want updated Clock and Calendar add-on, and am aware that you also want Extended Winamp update as well as I am the last person to work on it (last year). After thinking about it, I decided to stick with my original decision for the Clock add-on: discontinuation, hoping that someone will take care of it. As for Extended Winamp, after assessing the situation, I decided that it wasn’t worth it to release what really amounts to manifest edits. My (professional) answer is that I simply do not have time to continue maintaining these add-ons – as I communicated to everyone last year, these add-ons are now in the hands of the community.

 

My unfiltered answer: go ahead and take care of these add-ons yourselves. This is my way of saying, “I’m done with these add-ons,” and I SERIOUSLY DO NOT HAVE TIME to maintain them. I have asked the community for months to find new maintainers for these add-ons to no avail, and the fact that NVDA 2022.1 was marketed as a compatibility breaking release caused more anxiety for me and community members. I have offered (or rather, threatened) to release compatibility updates if no-one stepped up by the time NVDA 2022.1 was finalized (I say “threatened” to highlight what happens when a person becomes so desperate to a point where he/she/they lose their sense of self and reality). I will not go into additional stress caused by graduate school and performing duties for my school as it will take a long post to describe it (anyone who went through master’s or doctoral degrees can understand what I’m talking about).

 

I realize that this is a really shocking response from someone passionate about add-ons, but I believe that shocks sometimes work to change a community. But I want you, my beloved NVDA community members, to know why I’m saying this before I disconnect from NVDA community for a while: to educate yourselves on the dark side of open-source development and the resulting physical and psychological effects. Among the articles on this subject, the following should offer a glimpse into what I’m actually feeling right now:

Why Open-Source Developers Are Burning Out | by Clive Thompson | Better Programming

 

While I don’t agree fully with the economics section, the article describes in part what I’m actually feeling. The anxiety from the just released NVDA 2022.1 changes for add-ons community, coupled with graduate school education and upcoming life events, put a strain on what I can do physically and mentally for the NVDA community.

 

Before I disconnect, besides needing to recharge, here is the real reason for my vacation: I am at a point in graduate education where I must carefully choose what to study and where to go to refine my skills for the next five years or so; I am, of course, talking about Ph.D. applications (for fall 2023). Anyone who looked into and experienced doctoral programs should recognize what I’m saying – you must meet good dissertation supervisor in a supportive community that values your humanness, teaching and research skills, and networking opportunities in order to succeed as a scholar. When I began my current M.A. (master of arts) program, I knew that researching Ph.D. programs is not a joking matter, and there will come a day when NVDA development (both the screen reader and add-ons) can actually become a roadblock. In other words, I can fully disclose that I’ve been feeling a smaller version of stress and burnout since last summer; thankfully I was able to put my “obsessive perfectionist” attitude to good use by trying to persuade Microsoft to consider accessibility feedback with Windows 11. Not this time – I must recharge in order to prepare for long-term life goals (I hope what you read above (going into scholar mode) tells you what I hope to become five to ten years down the road; and this time, I will ask for pay as a consultant).

 

As I close my “NVDA development lab” for a while, I humbly state what I thought was unthinkable to say until now: I need help, I need freedom from the perpetual myth of progress and change, I need help in overcoming the obsessive perfectionist attitude I found myself in, and I need a way to (finally) leave NVDA community in more positive terms. We (the NVDA community) must recognize that not all progress is beneficial, we must work on a solution that does not bring down the reputation of NVDA, and we must get away from the attitude that developers are superheroes. I ask and plead with each and every one of you to consider the effects of stress and burnout, learn to critically analyze messages from organizations, and realize that we are collectively responsible for the messy affair we found ourselves in and work together on ways to move forward. If we do not critically analyze the situation, we will witness increasing skill and resource drain.

 

One more recommendation (or rather, something to do or not do): throughout June 2022, please do not suggest new add-ons or new NVDA screen reader features. Please use that month as a period of reflection throughout the NVDA community. Please do not (ever) contact me throughout June if your question or comment has anything to do with NVDA and/or add-ons (not just Add-on Updater and Windows App Essentials, but others are also off-limits that month) – I want to talk about something completely different that month. Feel free to contact me if you have Ph.D. program recommendations (specifically, communication studies), want to talk about public speaking, or need advice on graduate school and other academic endeavors (I’m offering to coach people (especially college students) public speaking and impromptu speaking skills).

 

Thank you.

 

References:

Localized Myth: Creating and Maintaining Persuasive Power | enculturation

How to Communicate Clearly During Organizational Change (hbr.org)

NV Access | In-Process March 21st 2022

nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io | We listened, re-introducing controlTypes aliases.

 

Have a safe and healthy June.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: Announcement of text-entry insert/overwrite state change?

Luke Davis
 

Jacob Kruger wrote:

if I double-press one of the insert keys to toggle change between text-entry insert, or overwrite modes, NVDA doesn't seem to be announcing the state change, or the then resulting state to me?
What program? Not all of them support this, so I don't think it is announced.


Re: NVDA reporting blank

Gene
 

Its good you found out.

Gene

On 5/27/2022 6:22 AM, William wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]

Sorry, I found out the reason.
Because I have set nvda to report indentation, so my nvda will report space blank if the line is containing one space.


Gene 於 27/5/2022 18:55 寫道:
I can't help further unless what you are describing is stated very clearly.  When do you hear space blank?  What, exactly, are you doing when you hear it?  You write as though you hear both space and blank spoken when you take the same action.  For example, when you move by character, you hear space blank spoken when you move.  I'm not saying that is what happens, but I don't know what you are describing.  Is that what you are saying and if so, what is the action that causes the behavior?

Gene

On 5/27/2022 1:15 AM, William wrote:

I have a blank line in Notepad, I hear blank.  When I put spaces on the line and nothing else, it still says blank.  But if I want to check to see if there are any spaces on the line and I issue the say current line command twice quickly, the > number of spaces are spoken on the line and blank isn't.

 
If it is in Notepad++, it will say space blank.
 
> You don't want to hear space spoken when you are reading lines. 
 
Sometimes, I am editing a file which was given by a sighted person, and I see that there are lines of spaces but it says blank, so at the first glance, I am confused. But I totally agree that it is like sighted people do not see spaces, so line with only spaces can be regarded as blank.
 
 
 
 
Gene 於 27/5/2022 11:32 寫道:
It sounds to me as though you aren't reporting when it says space and blank with enough detail.  If I have a blank line in Notepad, I hear blank.  When I put spaces on the line and nothing else, it still says blank.  But if I want to check to see if there are any spaces on the line and I issue the say current line command twice quickly, the number of spaces are spoken on the line and blank isn't.

That makes sense since if it announced space when it saw spaces in a line when not spelling the line, you would hear space announced during ordinary reading between every word.

Gene

On 5/26/2022 9:43 PM, William wrote:

Hi Quentin

Hmm, I am just wondering to my understand, blank is nothing, but if there is spaces, and it says blank, I may be confused.

 

 

 

 

 

Quentin Christensen 於 27/5/2022 10:13 寫道:

What is the context and would you rather it read?

On Fri, May 27, 2022 at 11:20 AM William <xsuper.sillyx@...> wrote:
Hello all,

When there is a empty line, nvda will report "blank."

But, if the line contain only spaces, say " " nvda will say "space blank."


I wanna understand why nvda still regard it as blank when there are spaces?

Thanks,

William.










 
--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager
 


Re: NVDA reporting blank

William
 

Gene,

Sorry, locale is irrelevant to this issue, I have used different configuration profile after switching the nvda locale, so at first I wonder the problem is related to the locale.

Sorry for causing confusion.



SuperSilly 於 27/5/2022 19:22 寫道:

Oh I found out that why you did not understand what I meant.

My nvda is now set to zh-tw

1. open somewhere that can type characters, like the composing window of Thunderbird, Notepad++

2. type a space into the first line

3. press nvda+up arrow to report current line

4. my nvda says "space blank" (in chinese)

5. switch nvda locale to english

6. repeat step 3

7. nvda only says "blank"


So different locale produce different result regarding this situation.



Gene 於 27/5/2022 18:55 寫道:
I can't help further unless what you are describing is stated very clearly.  When do you hear space blank?  What, exactly, are you doing when you hear it?  You write as though you hear both space and blank spoken when you take the same action.  For example, when you move by character, you hear space blank spoken when you move.  I'm not saying that is what happens, but I don't know what you are describing.  Is that what you are saying and if so, what is the action that causes the behavior?

Gene

On 5/27/2022 1:15 AM, William wrote:

I have a blank line in Notepad, I hear blank.  When I put spaces on the line and nothing else, it still says blank.  But if I want to check to see if there are any spaces on the line and I issue the say current line command twice quickly, the > number of spaces are spoken on the line and blank isn't.


If it is in Notepad++, it will say space blank.

> You don't want to hear space spoken when you are reading lines. 

Sometimes, I am editing a file which was given by a sighted person, and I see that there are lines of spaces but it says blank, so at the first glance, I am confused. But I totally agree that it is like sighted people do not see spaces, so line with only spaces can be regarded as blank.




Gene 於 27/5/2022 11:32 寫道:
It sounds to me as though you aren't reporting when it says space and blank with enough detail.  If I have a blank line in Notepad, I hear blank.  When I put spaces on the line and nothing else, it still says blank.  But if I want to check to see if there are any spaces on the line and I issue the say current line command twice quickly, the number of spaces are spoken on the line and blank isn't.

That makes sense since if it announced space when it saw spaces in a line when not spelling the line, you would hear space announced during ordinary reading between every word.

Gene

On 5/26/2022 9:43 PM, William wrote:

Hi Quentin

Hmm, I am just wondering to my understand, blank is nothing, but if there is spaces, and it says blank, I may be confused.






Quentin Christensen 於 27/5/2022 10:13 寫道:

What is the context and would you rather it read?

On Fri, May 27, 2022 at 11:20 AM William <xsuper.sillyx@...> wrote:
Hello all,

When there is a empty line, nvda will report "blank."

But, if the line contain only spaces, say " " nvda will say "space blank."


I wanna understand why nvda still regard it as blank when there are spaces?

Thanks,

William.











--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager




Re: NVDA reporting blank

Gene
 

Others may have more comments.  Now we know what the problem is but it is outside of my knowledge.

gene

On 5/27/2022 6:22 AM, William wrote:

Oh I found out that why you did not understand what I meant.

My nvda is now set to zh-tw

1. open somewhere that can type characters, like the composing window of Thunderbird, Notepad++

2. type a space into the first line

3. press nvda+up arrow to report current line

4. my nvda says "space blank" (in chinese)

5. switch nvda locale to english

6. repeat step 3

7. nvda only says "blank"


So different locale produce different result regarding this situation.



Gene 於 27/5/2022 18:55 寫道:
I can't help further unless what you are describing is stated very clearly.  When do you hear space blank?  What, exactly, are you doing when you hear it?  You write as though you hear both space and blank spoken when you take the same action.  For example, when you move by character, you hear space blank spoken when you move.  I'm not saying that is what happens, but I don't know what you are describing.  Is that what you are saying and if so, what is the action that causes the behavior?

Gene

On 5/27/2022 1:15 AM, William wrote:

I have a blank line in Notepad, I hear blank.  When I put spaces on the line and nothing else, it still says blank.  But if I want to check to see if there are any spaces on the line and I issue the say current line command twice quickly, the > number of spaces are spoken on the line and blank isn't.


If it is in Notepad++, it will say space blank.

> You don't want to hear space spoken when you are reading lines. 

Sometimes, I am editing a file which was given by a sighted person, and I see that there are lines of spaces but it says blank, so at the first glance, I am confused. But I totally agree that it is like sighted people do not see spaces, so line with only spaces can be regarded as blank.




Gene 於 27/5/2022 11:32 寫道:
It sounds to me as though you aren't reporting when it says space and blank with enough detail.  If I have a blank line in Notepad, I hear blank.  When I put spaces on the line and nothing else, it still says blank.  But if I want to check to see if there are any spaces on the line and I issue the say current line command twice quickly, the number of spaces are spoken on the line and blank isn't.

That makes sense since if it announced space when it saw spaces in a line when not spelling the line, you would hear space announced during ordinary reading between every word.

Gene

On 5/26/2022 9:43 PM, William wrote:

Hi Quentin

Hmm, I am just wondering to my understand, blank is nothing, but if there is spaces, and it says blank, I may be confused.






Quentin Christensen 於 27/5/2022 10:13 寫道:

What is the context and would you rather it read?

On Fri, May 27, 2022 at 11:20 AM William <xsuper.sillyx@...> wrote:
Hello all,

When there is a empty line, nvda will report "blank."

But, if the line contain only spaces, say " " nvda will say "space blank."


I wanna understand why nvda still regard it as blank when there are spaces?

Thanks,

William.











--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager





Re: NVDA reporting blank

William
 
Edited

Sorry, I found out the reason.
Because I have set nvda to report indentation, so my nvda will report space blank if the line is containing one space.


Gene 於 27/5/2022 18:55 寫道:

I can't help further unless what you are describing is stated very clearly.  When do you hear space blank?  What, exactly, are you doing when you hear it?  You write as though you hear both space and blank spoken when you take the same action.  For example, when you move by character, you hear space blank spoken when you move.  I'm not saying that is what happens, but I don't know what you are describing.  Is that what you are saying and if so, what is the action that causes the behavior?

Gene

On 5/27/2022 1:15 AM, William wrote:

I have a blank line in Notepad, I hear blank.  When I put spaces on the line and nothing else, it still says blank.  But if I want to check to see if there are any spaces on the line and I issue the say current line command twice quickly, the > number of spaces are spoken on the line and blank isn't.

 
If it is in Notepad++, it will say space blank.
 
> You don't want to hear space spoken when you are reading lines. 
 
Sometimes, I am editing a file which was given by a sighted person, and I see that there are lines of spaces but it says blank, so at the first glance, I am confused. But I totally agree that it is like sighted people do not see spaces, so line with only spaces can be regarded as blank.
 
 
 
 
Gene 於 27/5/2022 11:32 寫道:
It sounds to me as though you aren't reporting when it says space and blank with enough detail.  If I have a blank line in Notepad, I hear blank.  When I put spaces on the line and nothing else, it still says blank.  But if I want to check to see if there are any spaces on the line and I issue the say current line command twice quickly, the number of spaces are spoken on the line and blank isn't.

That makes sense since if it announced space when it saw spaces in a line when not spelling the line, you would hear space announced during ordinary reading between every word.

Gene

On 5/26/2022 9:43 PM, William wrote:

Hi Quentin

Hmm, I am just wondering to my understand, blank is nothing, but if there is spaces, and it says blank, I may be confused.

 

 

 

 

 

Quentin Christensen 於 27/5/2022 10:13 寫道:

What is the context and would you rather it read?

On Fri, May 27, 2022 at 11:20 AM William <xsuper.sillyx@...> wrote:
Hello all,

When there is a empty line, nvda will report "blank."

But, if the line contain only spaces, say " " nvda will say "space blank."


I wanna understand why nvda still regard it as blank when there are spaces?

Thanks,

William.










 
--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager
 


Re: Announcement of text-entry insert/overwrite state change?

Jacob Kruger
 

Ok, so, it's just that never noticed lack of state change announcement before.


Stay well


Jacob Kruger
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 2022-05-27 12:57 PM, Gene wrote:
It doesn't announce it.  You must press the key twice quickly to change its state when using NVDA.

Gene

On 5/27/2022 3:19 AM, Jacob Kruger wrote:
Not sure if am just missing something, or if this is just the first time have noticed this, or something, but, if I double-press one of the insert keys to toggle change between text-entry insert, or overwrite modes, NVDA doesn't seem to be announcing the state change, or the then resulting state to me?


As in, should it be doing so, and is it thus likely one of the add-ons might be interfering with this announcement, or something?


Still running 2021.3.5, for now, but, don't think that's relevant on this windows 10 64 bit 21H2 machine?


Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."







Re: Announcement of text-entry insert/overwrite state change?

Gene
 

It doesn't announce it.  You must press the key twice quickly to change its state when using NVDA.

Gene

On 5/27/2022 3:19 AM, Jacob Kruger wrote:
Not sure if am just missing something, or if this is just the first time have noticed this, or something, but, if I double-press one of the insert keys to toggle change between text-entry insert, or overwrite modes, NVDA doesn't seem to be announcing the state change, or the then resulting state to me?


As in, should it be doing so, and is it thus likely one of the add-ons might be interfering with this announcement, or something?


Still running 2021.3.5, for now, but, don't think that's relevant on this windows 10 64 bit 21H2 machine?


Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."







Re: NVDA reporting blank

Gene
 

I can't help further unless what you are describing is stated very clearly.  When do you hear space blank?  What, exactly, are you doing when you hear it?  You write as though you hear both space and blank spoken when you take the same action.  For example, when you move by character, you hear space blank spoken when you move.  I'm not saying that is what happens, but I don't know what you are describing.  Is that what you are saying and if so, what is the action that causes the behavior?

Gene

On 5/27/2022 1:15 AM, William wrote:

I have a blank line in Notepad, I hear blank.  When I put spaces on the line and nothing else, it still says blank.  But if I want to check to see if there are any spaces on the line and I issue the say current line command twice quickly, the > number of spaces are spoken on the line and blank isn't.


If it is in Notepad++, it will say space blank.

> You don't want to hear space spoken when you are reading lines. 

Sometimes, I am editing a file which was given by a sighted person, and I see that there are lines of spaces but it says blank, so at the first glance, I am confused. But I totally agree that it is like sighted people do not see spaces, so line with only spaces can be regarded as blank.




Gene 於 27/5/2022 11:32 寫道:
It sounds to me as though you aren't reporting when it says space and blank with enough detail.  If I have a blank line in Notepad, I hear blank.  When I put spaces on the line and nothing else, it still says blank.  But if I want to check to see if there are any spaces on the line and I issue the say current line command twice quickly, the number of spaces are spoken on the line and blank isn't.

That makes sense since if it announced space when it saw spaces in a line when not spelling the line, you would hear space announced during ordinary reading between every word.

Gene

On 5/26/2022 9:43 PM, William wrote:

Hi Quentin

Hmm, I am just wondering to my understand, blank is nothing, but if there is spaces, and it says blank, I may be confused.






Quentin Christensen 於 27/5/2022 10:13 寫道:

What is the context and would you rather it read?

On Fri, May 27, 2022 at 11:20 AM William <xsuper.sillyx@...> wrote:
Hello all,

When there is a empty line, nvda will report "blank."

But, if the line contain only spaces, say " " nvda will say "space blank."


I wanna understand why nvda still regard it as blank when there are spaces?

Thanks,

William.











--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager




Re: holding off on 2022.1 due to Code Factory dragging their feet

Rui Fontes
 

Please, can you list the 19 add-on not compatible?


Rui Fontes


Às 22:00 de 26/05/2022, Kevin Cussick via groups.io escreveu:

I have 19 add-on's that are not compatible at this time the one for me and I will check on her sight later is RH voice is not compatible anyway at some point we should have  most if not addons working just be fore the next breaking release..

On 23/05/2022 03:34, Shaun Oliver wrote:
same here. there's a truck load of add-ons I have here that I use with regularity which precludes me from updating at this time, however, in saying that, it's not always best to go get it immediately anyway due to the fact that if you have incompatible add-ons, especially those you use all the time, you're going to find those self same add-ons becoming showstoppers.

right now I have far too many to justify the update.



On 23/05/2022 11:55 am, Supanut Leepaisomboon wrote:
I'm holding off upgrading for the very same reason, but I'm also waiting for the switch synth addon to be updated to support NVDA 2022.1.



Announcement of text-entry insert/overwrite state change?

Jacob Kruger
 

Not sure if am just missing something, or if this is just the first time have noticed this, or something, but, if I double-press one of the insert keys to toggle change between text-entry insert, or overwrite modes, NVDA doesn't seem to be announcing the state change, or the then resulting state to me?


As in, should it be doing so, and is it thus likely one of the add-ons might be interfering with this announcement, or something?


Still running 2021.3.5, for now, but, don't think that's relevant on this windows 10 64 bit 21H2 machine?


Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."

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