Date   

Re: Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

On Sun, Jul 24, 2022 at 06:42 PM, Shawn wrote:
I don't think you're going to convince a website owner to comb through his site setting the right language attributes for each phrase in a given language on pages where more than 1 languages are present.
-
After the fact on a general purpose website, you're almost certainly correct.

But any website that's supposed to be about language learning, if they care about accessibility (and that, sadly, is an "if"), should certainly be using language marking attributes correctly.  I'd expect the same for professionally published materials where there is frequent switching between languages, at least for recently created materials.

I once worked with a client who was using materials that were written in English with a lot of Swedish mixed in.  Nothing could automatically read (or OCR) this correctly as there were no language markers and, in the case of OCR, it used either English, or Swedish, but not both for any given pass of the document.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard


Re: Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

Shawn,

As often happens with "raw URLs that contain odd characters," the one you posted broke even though there are no gaps in the text itself.

For those who want to read the topic referred to, see:  A few questions about NVDA, eSpeak NG, and languages (non-programer)
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard


Re: Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

Shawn
 

I hate to tell you this, but most websites don't even bother with that stuff, and when they do it's usually to use the wrong language attribute altogether. I turn language switching off and never use it lest I end up on a website in English where the site builder put in a German attribute. One would think there would be an automated way to include them where needed, but I don't think there is, and I don't think you're going to convince a website owner to comb through his site setting the right language attributes for each phrase in a given language on pages where more than 1 languages are present. It's been useless from the beginning IMHO. People are impressed by the idea, but it's just not practical.

Shawn Klein

On 7/24/2022 4:53 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:

I was responding to each message as I read it, so I didn't see yours until after I wrote that.


I don't think the Duolingo site does this, sadly. I started in on Spanish this morning, and NVDA didn't change language for the Spanish words, meaning the pronunciation was botched 80% of the time by the screen-reader. They have little voice clips whenever you press a button corresponding with a non-English word though, so at least I won't be botching pronunciations.


This will not help me with Japanese if I can't hear the symbols being properly identified, of course.

On 25/07/2022 7:30 am, David Goldfield wrote:

Sharni-Lee wrote:

> I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese,

 

As I wrote this can only happen if the Web site uses a specific language attribute in their code when switching to a new language. The code is normally hidden but it tells the Web site, “Hey, this next block of text that I’m about to write is actually Japanese.” When writing English text a similar code needs to be entered which tells the Web site, “the following text is in English.” Of course, NVDA needs to have language switching enabled in the Voices dialog, as well.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sharni-Lee Ward
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 5:03 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese, be it a single line or a passage in the midst of English instructions. It does not currently do this and this could pose problems when learning. The ProTalker addon used to do it but alas...

On 25/07/2022 4:13 am, David Goldfield wrote:

Also, if we’re talking about a Web page the developer(s) of the page need to be using the language attribute correctly. Just having the page being written or displayed in the Japanese language won’t switch the synth language to Japanese if English is still being used as the default or primary language.

Of course, if the synth has been set to Japanese and if it’s still not speaking correctly then this is a bit outside of my wheelhouse.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 2:09 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

Do you have automatic language switching turned on in Speech settings?

Also, and this is not meant as snarky, are you certain you are using Espeak as your synth?  I'd also suggest, once you're certain that automatic language switching is turned on in NVDA, that you give the Microsoft OneCore Japanese a try, if for no other reason than testing.  It does support text to speech.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard


Re: Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

Shawn
 

I've done a bit of Googling about this, and it seems that it's actually whoever created the ESpeak voice's fault. As best as I can figure, they left out loads of kanji and made a real mess of it, so you're out of luck unless someone gets around to fixing it. A lot of ESpeak voices are broken in some way.

This guy outlines a lot of them from a linguist's point of view here.

https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/topic/83236633?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate/sticky,0,,20,0,540,83236633

Shawn Klein

On 7/24/2022 4:10 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:
Since Eloquence is paid and I don't like it anyways, that's not an option for me. I dunno how, if at all, those packs would help, and I don't want to change synths. Anything without inflection settings (including most paid synths) sounds woeful to my discerning ears.

On 25/07/2022 6:30 am, Shawn via groups.io wrote:
The question is did you switch ESpeak's language to Japanese. With some synths, they just won't work with Japanese or some other foreign alphabets at all unless you add language packs in Windows. I just opened a Japanese Wikipedia page with the following results. Japanese Eloquence read it in Japanese. ESpeak Japanese read Japanese letter this, Chinese letter that. You may want to check out this page about installing language packs in Windows, or find a synth that will work without them.

https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsupport.microsoft.com%2Fen-us%2Fwindows%2Flanguage-packs-for-windows-a5094319-a92d-18de-5b53-1cfc697cfca8&;data=05%7C01%7C%7Ca7bb77b5ae214a5c60df08da6db3539e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637942914239707766%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&amp;sdata=8LExDKrMOyFnZ6j5bx0i0zGGWO3dkvo48rzzfzWFD%2BA%3D&amp;reserved=0

Shawn Klein

On 7/24/2022 12:58 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:
The New Releases page said that Japanese was added to Espeak as well as the packaged Braille Tables. I want to learn Japanese (I started learning in school, then left school, and that was a good fifteen years ago now), and just found out the browser version of Duolingo is accessible with NVDA.


However, I've checked with a couple things (I'm a part of a number of anime fandoms), and NVDA doesn't switch to Japanese when reading passages, instead continuing to say "Japanese-letter" several times, or if I'm scrolling over it, "Japanese-letter" plus several numbers that I suppose are it's unicode designation? But anyways, it is not reflecting the addition of the language bank in Espeak NG. And I know the ProTalker addon has not been compatible for years, though even if it were, there were some weird pronunciation issues with even that.


Is there something I am missing here?











Re: Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

On Sun, Jul 24, 2022 at 05:01 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:
I don't have any non-English 1Core voices installed and truth be told, don't know how I might get more.
-
Settings, Time & Language, Language Pane.  In the Language Pane, activate the Add A Language button.  Enter the language you're looking for in the search box then review the search results (sometimes there are multiple dialects and sometimes multiple voices in a given dialect).  If the intention is for a screen reader to use that language for reading, make sure that the text-to-speech attribute is one of those shown for the specific language item you are reviewing.  There are a number of language items that do not support text-to-speech, though a great many do.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard


Re: addOn Updater 2.8 and checking both International and Spanish-only NVDA?

 

Hi,

Regarding the first question, ideally, yes but hard to do in practical terms. When opening websites, because sites are hosted around the world, it may take a while for some sites to load. For computers, the slowest component (usually memory, disk, and other hardware) contributes to overall performance. While it doesn't take long to gather add-on update metadata from both sites, there are times when Add-on Updater must locate the actual download ink for an add-on update, which is why it takes up to several seconds for the add-on to check for updates. This is for one site, now imagine doing this for multiple websites, and in this scenario, the site that is slowest to respond takes up significant portion of update check progress. Also, remember that different update sources may say different things about an add-on - some may give conflicting compatibility information for an add-on update, while another site may offer an older version of a compatible add-on. For these reasons, I decided to at least offer users a setting to configure update sources.

As for the second question, I advise keeping Tienda (see a reply from Jose-Manuel). This is why I intentionally told Add-on Updater (via add-on source code) to not check for updates for Tienda as that add-on is essentially the add-on store for the Spanish community. In an earlier Twitter thread, I assured Jose-Manuel that Add-on Updater is a client, not a full store like Tienda is, knowing that many of you from Spain and other Spanish-speaking countries rely on Tienda to meet their add-on needs. Same can be said about the French community and other language communities with their own dedicated add-ons repositories (I once thought about talking to French community about letting Add-on Updater check for updates from their repository; my personal rule is that I must obtain consent from communities before I can ask Add-on Updater to check for updates from new repos in future add-on releases; I'm indeed open to this proposal and would love to talk to French community members about it in the fall as it takes about a day or two to add new add-on repositories).

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

Michael Munn
 

Is far I know NVDA do not have the capability  of doing that in Windows. I am able to do that on my Mac when I read my text in Chinese.

Best regards

Michael H. Munn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Goldfield
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 6:02 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

I should have explained that WCAG stands for Web Content Accessibility Guidelines. They document standards to ensure that Web sites are accessible.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Goldfield
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 6:01 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

Sharni-Lee,

No problem. I would encourage you to contact support and ask them to use the language attribute. For reference, here’s a page which discusses the relevant WCAG criterion.

https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/language-of-parts.html

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sharni-Lee Ward
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 5:54 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

I was responding to each message as I read it, so I didn't see yours until after I wrote that.

 

I don't think the Duolingo site does this, sadly. I started in on Spanish this morning, and NVDA didn't change language for the Spanish words, meaning the pronunciation was botched 80% of the time by the screen-reader. They have little voice clips whenever you press a button corresponding with a non-English word though, so at least I won't be botching pronunciations.

 

This will not help me with Japanese if I can't hear the symbols being properly identified, of course.

On 25/07/2022 7:30 am, David Goldfield wrote:

Sharni-Lee wrote:

> I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese,

 

As I wrote this can only happen if the Web site uses a specific language attribute in their code when switching to a new language. The code is normally hidden but it tells the Web site, “Hey, this next block of text that I’m about to write is actually Japanese.” When writing English text a similar code needs to be entered which tells the Web site, “the following text is in English.” Of course, NVDA needs to have language switching enabled in the Voices dialog, as well.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sharni-Lee Ward
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 5:03 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese, be it a single line or a passage in the midst of English instructions. It does not currently do this and this could pose problems when learning. The ProTalker addon used to do it but alas...

On 25/07/2022 4:13 am, David Goldfield wrote:

Also, if we’re talking about a Web page the developer(s) of the page need to be using the language attribute correctly. Just having the page being written or displayed in the Japanese language won’t switch the synth language to Japanese if English is still being used as the default or primary language.

Of course, if the synth has been set to Japanese and if it’s still not speaking correctly then this is a bit outside of my wheelhouse.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 2:09 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

Do you have automatic language switching turned on in Speech settings?

Also, and this is not meant as snarky, are you certain you are using Espeak as your synth?  I'd also suggest, once you're certain that automatic language switching is turned on in NVDA, that you give the Microsoft OneCore Japanese a try, if for no other reason than testing.  It does support text to speech.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard


Re: Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

David Goldfield
 

I should have explained that WCAG stands for Web Content Accessibility Guidelines. They document standards to ensure that Web sites are accessible.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Goldfield
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 6:01 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

Sharni-Lee,

No problem. I would encourage you to contact support and ask them to use the language attribute. For reference, here’s a page which discusses the relevant WCAG criterion.

https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/language-of-parts.html

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sharni-Lee Ward
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 5:54 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

I was responding to each message as I read it, so I didn't see yours until after I wrote that.

 

I don't think the Duolingo site does this, sadly. I started in on Spanish this morning, and NVDA didn't change language for the Spanish words, meaning the pronunciation was botched 80% of the time by the screen-reader. They have little voice clips whenever you press a button corresponding with a non-English word though, so at least I won't be botching pronunciations.

 

This will not help me with Japanese if I can't hear the symbols being properly identified, of course.

On 25/07/2022 7:30 am, David Goldfield wrote:

Sharni-Lee wrote:

> I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese,

 

As I wrote this can only happen if the Web site uses a specific language attribute in their code when switching to a new language. The code is normally hidden but it tells the Web site, “Hey, this next block of text that I’m about to write is actually Japanese.” When writing English text a similar code needs to be entered which tells the Web site, “the following text is in English.” Of course, NVDA needs to have language switching enabled in the Voices dialog, as well.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sharni-Lee Ward
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 5:03 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese, be it a single line or a passage in the midst of English instructions. It does not currently do this and this could pose problems when learning. The ProTalker addon used to do it but alas...

On 25/07/2022 4:13 am, David Goldfield wrote:

Also, if we’re talking about a Web page the developer(s) of the page need to be using the language attribute correctly. Just having the page being written or displayed in the Japanese language won’t switch the synth language to Japanese if English is still being used as the default or primary language.

Of course, if the synth has been set to Japanese and if it’s still not speaking correctly then this is a bit outside of my wheelhouse.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 2:09 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

Do you have automatic language switching turned on in Speech settings?

Also, and this is not meant as snarky, are you certain you are using Espeak as your synth?  I'd also suggest, once you're certain that automatic language switching is turned on in NVDA, that you give the Microsoft OneCore Japanese a try, if for no other reason than testing.  It does support text to speech.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard


Re: Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

David Goldfield
 

Sharni-Lee,

No problem. I would encourage you to contact support and ask them to use the language attribute. For reference, here’s a page which discusses the relevant WCAG criterion.

https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/language-of-parts.html

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sharni-Lee Ward
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 5:54 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

I was responding to each message as I read it, so I didn't see yours until after I wrote that.

 

I don't think the Duolingo site does this, sadly. I started in on Spanish this morning, and NVDA didn't change language for the Spanish words, meaning the pronunciation was botched 80% of the time by the screen-reader. They have little voice clips whenever you press a button corresponding with a non-English word though, so at least I won't be botching pronunciations.

 

This will not help me with Japanese if I can't hear the symbols being properly identified, of course.

On 25/07/2022 7:30 am, David Goldfield wrote:

Sharni-Lee wrote:

> I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese,

 

As I wrote this can only happen if the Web site uses a specific language attribute in their code when switching to a new language. The code is normally hidden but it tells the Web site, “Hey, this next block of text that I’m about to write is actually Japanese.” When writing English text a similar code needs to be entered which tells the Web site, “the following text is in English.” Of course, NVDA needs to have language switching enabled in the Voices dialog, as well.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sharni-Lee Ward
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 5:03 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese, be it a single line or a passage in the midst of English instructions. It does not currently do this and this could pose problems when learning. The ProTalker addon used to do it but alas...

On 25/07/2022 4:13 am, David Goldfield wrote:

Also, if we’re talking about a Web page the developer(s) of the page need to be using the language attribute correctly. Just having the page being written or displayed in the Japanese language won’t switch the synth language to Japanese if English is still being used as the default or primary language.

Of course, if the synth has been set to Japanese and if it’s still not speaking correctly then this is a bit outside of my wheelhouse.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 2:09 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

Do you have automatic language switching turned on in Speech settings?

Also, and this is not meant as snarky, are you certain you are using Espeak as your synth?  I'd also suggest, once you're certain that automatic language switching is turned on in NVDA, that you give the Microsoft OneCore Japanese a try, if for no other reason than testing.  It does support text to speech.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard


Re: addOn Updater 2.8 and checking both International and Spanish-only NVDA?

José Manuel Delicado Alcolea
 

Maintain = keep installed.


El 24/07/2022 a las 23:50, Gerardo Corripio escribió:
Joseph: Awesome work on making better and better the AddOn updater! But have several questions:
1.-can one set up the updater to check. Both, the Spanish NVDA and ther International NVDA site? I went into NVDA settings/AddOn Updater, and you can only check one of the other apparently, right? Thus if this isn’t possible as of now,
2.-so would you recommend I maintain the “Tienda” AddOn? Because that one checks updates from the Latinamerica NVDA site.

Gera
Enviado desde mi iPhone SE (2nd Generation) de Telcel




--

José Manuel Delicado Alcolea
Equipo de gestión web y desarrollo



Asociación Comunidad Hispanohablante de NVDA
- Tel.: (+34) 910 05 33 25 ext. 2001
- jm.delicado@...
- www.NVDA.es
- @nvda_es

***Este mensaje y sus adjuntos están dirigidos a su destinatario y pueden contener información exclusiva o confidencial. La utilización, copia o divulgación de los mismos por parte de alguien diferente a dicho destinatario no está permitida sin autorización. Si ha recibido este mensaje por error, le rogamos que lo comunique por esta misma vía y seguidamente lo destruya.***


Re: Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

Sharni-Lee Ward
 

I was responding to each message as I read it, so I didn't see yours until after I wrote that.


I don't think the Duolingo site does this, sadly. I started in on Spanish this morning, and NVDA didn't change language for the Spanish words, meaning the pronunciation was botched 80% of the time by the screen-reader. They have little voice clips whenever you press a button corresponding with a non-English word though, so at least I won't be botching pronunciations.


This will not help me with Japanese if I can't hear the symbols being properly identified, of course.

On 25/07/2022 7:30 am, David Goldfield wrote:

Sharni-Lee wrote:

> I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese,

 

As I wrote this can only happen if the Web site uses a specific language attribute in their code when switching to a new language. The code is normally hidden but it tells the Web site, “Hey, this next block of text that I’m about to write is actually Japanese.” When writing English text a similar code needs to be entered which tells the Web site, “the following text is in English.” Of course, NVDA needs to have language switching enabled in the Voices dialog, as well.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sharni-Lee Ward
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 5:03 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese, be it a single line or a passage in the midst of English instructions. It does not currently do this and this could pose problems when learning. The ProTalker addon used to do it but alas...

On 25/07/2022 4:13 am, David Goldfield wrote:

Also, if we’re talking about a Web page the developer(s) of the page need to be using the language attribute correctly. Just having the page being written or displayed in the Japanese language won’t switch the synth language to Japanese if English is still being used as the default or primary language.

Of course, if the synth has been set to Japanese and if it’s still not speaking correctly then this is a bit outside of my wheelhouse.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 2:09 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

Do you have automatic language switching turned on in Speech settings?

Also, and this is not meant as snarky, are you certain you are using Espeak as your synth?  I'd also suggest, once you're certain that automatic language switching is turned on in NVDA, that you give the Microsoft OneCore Japanese a try, if for no other reason than testing.  It does support text to speech.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard


addOn Updater 2.8 and checking both International and Spanish-only NVDA?

Gerardo Corripio
 

Joseph: Awesome work on making better and better the AddOn updater! But have several questions:
1.-can one set up the updater to check. Both, the Spanish NVDA and ther International NVDA site? I went into NVDA settings/AddOn Updater, and you can only check one of the other apparently, right? Thus if this isn’t possible as of now,
2.-so would you recommend I maintain the “Tienda” AddOn? Because that one checks updates from the Latinamerica NVDA site.

Gera
Enviado desde mi iPhone SE (2nd Generation) de Telcel


Re: Article on Screen Reader History (including NVDA)

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

I remember Window-eyes. It was the first screen reader I learned to use when I got my very first computer. I remember Raul Gallegos. He did the tutorial on thunderbird and it was quite good.

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Sky Mundell
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 2:30 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Article on Screen Reader History (including NVDA)

 

Hello David. Window-Eyes was developed by a sighted guy, named Doug Geoffray, and Dan W. They they did have Clarance Wally, who was a blind man, and who was their blind sales man, and they also had blind tech support specialists, as well, remember Raul A. Gallegos, Steve Klower, and Jeremy Curry?



On Jul 24, 2022, at 2:21 PM, David Goldfield <david.goldfield@...> wrote:

 

It’s possible that Window-eyes wasn’t mentioned in the article for two reasons.

First, the article’s focus was on blind programmers who were solving the accessibility barriers from Windows.I’m not sure if the WE developers were blind. Also, Window-Eyes isn’t available anymore and so cannot be considered as a modern solution. 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf OfGene
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2022 7:29 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Article on Screen Reader History (including NVDA)

 

the article is interesting and it has good information about JAWS and NVDA.  But it has problems.  It should have said something about Window-eyes because a lot of people used it and it was a good screen-reader.  It helped in development of screen-reader innovations in ways that should have been noted.

But a serious problem in the article is that it gives the reader the impression that there shouldn't need to be independently developed screen-readers if developers of software built accessibility into them.  This is erroneous for two reasons.

First, yes, accessibility should be built into programs and operating systems but we have been better served by screen-readers being developed outside of operating system programmers.  We are much better off having choices when it  comes  to Windows screen-readers.  It is a constantly stated truism that some screen-readers work better with some programs than others.  If Microsoft had developed a good screen-reader from the outset, we would probably only have one screen-reader and even if we would benefit from having more, we wouldn't.  

The article doesn't discuss this at all and the author is evidently completely unaware of the arguments about which is better, one screen-reader developed by the developers of an operating system or what exists regarding Windows.

I think we are much better off as things are.  

Gene

On 7/14/2022 10:06 PM, Laurie Mehta via groups.io wrote:

Hi,

I came across this today and am sharing it here because I think that many here will find it interesting. (Link below my name…)

-Laurie

 

The hidden history of screen readers

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Re: tab in firefox

Russell James
 

Greetings,

I experienced some accessibility regressions with Firefox after updating NVDA that were fortunately resolved when I restarted the computer.

Russ

On Sat, Jul 23, 2022 at 6:11 AM Brian's Mail list account via groups.io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:

Is this on all pages? I've seen sluggishness in many browsers, but think its
the complex javascript in the page. Waterfox is worse, Edge a bit better.
 Are we sure its not also slow if no screenreader is running?
 Brian

--
bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media)
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dark Count" <darkcount1@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2022 9:01 PM
Subject: [nvda] tab in firefox


Hello.

Using NVDA 22.2 and 22.1 with Mozilla firefox 102 has lend to the tab
key not moving through links or form fields or if doing so very sluggishly.

List of elements still works as expected, though it does not help when
interacting with form fields swiftly.


I have restarted with add-ons disabled, but this persists.

If somebody else has the same issue and has found a solution, please share.


Thanks,


D C













Re: Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

David Goldfield
 

Sharni-Lee wrote:

> I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese,

 

As I wrote this can only happen if the Web site uses a specific language attribute in their code when switching to a new language. The code is normally hidden but it tells the Web site, “Hey, this next block of text that I’m about to write is actually Japanese.” When writing English text a similar code needs to be entered which tells the Web site, “the following text is in English.” Of course, NVDA needs to have language switching enabled in the Voices dialog, as well.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sharni-Lee Ward
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 5:03 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese, be it a single line or a passage in the midst of English instructions. It does not currently do this and this could pose problems when learning. The ProTalker addon used to do it but alas...

On 25/07/2022 4:13 am, David Goldfield wrote:

Also, if we’re talking about a Web page the developer(s) of the page need to be using the language attribute correctly. Just having the page being written or displayed in the Japanese language won’t switch the synth language to Japanese if English is still being used as the default or primary language.

Of course, if the synth has been set to Japanese and if it’s still not speaking correctly then this is a bit outside of my wheelhouse.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 2:09 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

Do you have automatic language switching turned on in Speech settings?

Also, and this is not meant as snarky, are you certain you are using Espeak as your synth?  I'd also suggest, once you're certain that automatic language switching is turned on in NVDA, that you give the Microsoft OneCore Japanese a try, if for no other reason than testing.  It does support text to speech.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard


Re: Article on Screen Reader History (including NVDA)

Sky Mundell
 

Hello David. Window-Eyes was developed by a sighted guy, named Doug Geoffray, and Dan W. They they did have Clarance Wally, who was a blind man, and who was their blind sales man, and they also had blind tech support specialists, as well, remember Raul A. Gallegos, Steve Klower, and Jeremy Curry?

On Jul 24, 2022, at 2:21 PM, David Goldfield <david.goldfield@...> wrote:

It’s possible that Window-eyes wasn’t mentioned in the article for two reasons.
First, the article’s focus was on blind programmers who were solving the accessibility barriers from Windows.I’m not sure if the WE developers were blind. Also, Window-Eyes isn’t available anymore and so cannot be considered as a modern solution. 
 
David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
 
Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.
 
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf OfGene
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2022 7:29 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Article on Screen Reader History (including NVDA)
 

the article is interesting and it has good information about JAWS and NVDA.  But it has problems.  It should have said something about Window-eyes because a lot of people used it and it was a good screen-reader.  It helped in development of screen-reader innovations in ways that should have been noted.

But a serious problem in the article is that it gives the reader the impression that there shouldn't need to be independently developed screen-readers if developers of software built accessibility into them.  This is erroneous for two reasons.

First, yes, accessibility should be built into programs and operating systems but we have been better served by screen-readers being developed outside of operating system programmers.  We are much better off having choices when it  comes  to Windows screen-readers.  It is a constantly stated truism that some screen-readers work better with some programs than others.  If Microsoft had developed a good screen-reader from the outset, we would probably only have one screen-reader and even if we would benefit from having more, we wouldn't.  

The article doesn't discuss this at all and the author is evidently completely unaware of the arguments about which is better, one screen-reader developed by the developers of an operating system or what exists regarding Windows.

I think we are much better off as things are.  

Gene

On 7/14/2022 10:06 PM, Laurie Mehta via groups.io wrote:
Hi,
I came across this today and am sharing it here because I think that many here will find it interesting. (Link below my name…)
-Laurie
 

The hidden history of screen readers

 
 
 
 
 



Re: Article on Screen Reader History (including NVDA)

David Goldfield
 

It’s possible that Window-eyes wasn’t mentioned in the article for two reasons.

First, the article’s focus was on blind programmers who were solving the accessibility barriers from Windows.I’m not sure if the WE developers were blind. Also, Window-Eyes isn’t available anymore and so cannot be considered as a modern solution.

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2022 7:29 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Article on Screen Reader History (including NVDA)

 

the article is interesting and it has good information about JAWS and NVDA.  But it has problems.  It should have said something about Window-eyes because a lot of people used it and it was a good screen-reader.  It helped in development of screen-reader innovations in ways that should have been noted.

But a serious problem in the article is that it gives the reader the impression that there shouldn't need to be independently developed screen-readers if developers of software built accessibility into them.  This is erroneous for two reasons.

First, yes, accessibility should be built into programs and operating systems but we have been better served by screen-readers being developed outside of operating system programmers.  We are much better off having choices when it  comes  to Windows screen-readers.  It is a constantly stated truism that some screen-readers work better with some programs than others.  If Microsoft had developed a good screen-reader from the outset, we would probably only have one screen-reader and even if we would benefit from having more, we wouldn't. 

The article doesn't discuss this at all and the author is evidently completely unaware of the arguments about which is better, one screen-reader developed by the developers of an operating system or what exists regarding Windows.

I think we are much better off as things are. 

Gene

On 7/14/2022 10:06 PM, Laurie Mehta via groups.io wrote:

Hi,

I came across this today and am sharing it here because I think that many here will find it interesting. (Link below my name…)

-Laurie

 

The hidden history of screen readers

 

 

https://www.theverge.com/23203911/screen-readers-history-blind-henter-curran-teh-nvda

 

 

 


Re: Article on Screen Reader History (including NVDA)

David Goldfield
 

Brett, as the focus of the article seemed to be on Windows screen readers it’s somewhat understandable that Larry Skutchan’s contributions to the field weren’t mentioned. He did develop a Windows screen reader called ASAW which I did use but it never lasted past the Windows 95 era.

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brett Boyer
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2022 10:13 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Article on Screen Reader History (including NVDA)

 

If an article on screen leader history doesn’t include window eyes or ASAP, as well as some of the international screen readers we’re hearing about from some of your great folks, this article cannot be that great. I know, I need to go read it. I will. But, just looking at this thread, I’m feeling already that this article is not as good as it could be. I will go read it now and shut up.

Thanks

 



On Jul 19, 2022, at 6:13 AM, Pamela Dominguez <pammygirl99@...> wrote:



Because it doesn’t work anywhere near as well as window eyes, and it keeps crapping out.  I’ll be in the middle of something, and it will shut up like somebody pulled the plug.  Part of it is because I’m used to window eyes, and the rest of it is just because it keeps malfunctioning.  Pam.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Gene
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2022 8:08 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Article on Screen Reader History (including NVDA)

 

Is that because you are used to doing some things another way such as use the WE cursor?  Most of what you do with any screen-reader is to issue program and Windows commands and certain screen-reader commands such as read to end, read title bar, and quick navigation keys on web pages.

In short, since most of what is done with a screen-reader doesn't involve screen-reader commands, why do you dislike it so much?

Gene

On 7/19/2022 7:02 AM, Pamela Dominguez wrote:

I used window eyes from about 2002 until a couple of months ago.  I still have the windows seven computer that has it on it.  I like that screenreader.  I have jaws on this windows ten box, and I hate jaws with a passion!  Pam.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Michael Munn
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2022 7:26 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Article on Screen Reader History (including NVDA)

 

I was a user of Window-eyes for several years before they sentenced that screen reader to death. Window-eyes is one the only screen reader is far I know of ever made a deal with Microsoft so this way it’s user can use Office for free. Heck, that was the screen reader my school taught me to use when I was in seventh grade because they have the latest version of Office. Right now I’m a heavy user of Jaws in Windows, and I just recently getting in to Voice Over on the Mac. I do use NVDA but I’m not a full time user of it.  It is good for an operating system to be open sourced so this way the end user with vision problem can have multiple choice to what screen reader they choose to install on their machine.

Best regards

Michael H> Munn

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Shawn via groups.io
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2022 9:57 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Article on Screen Reader History (including NVDA)

 

Yeah, I couldn't get that because you have to have a Brazilian bank account in a certain bank to get it. I thought it would be cool to try it. I did have DosVox though for a while and played around with it some years ago. There were some cool games, I especially liked the one where you have to try to land on the moon. But I had to use a different voice, the native voice was incomprehensible to me as it was just made up of a bunch of syllables in wav files. Sounded like an alien robot. For native speakers it wasn't a problem, but for me I hated it. Luckily you could use a Sapi voice with it. It was basically a screen reader for people who didn't want to have to learn windows. It had loads of parts like a word processor, dictionaries, a telnet type client, and a file manager and I forget what else. Lots of people say it makes its users lazy for that reason, and they don't bother learning how to do things with windows and other programs.

Shawn Klein

On 7/18/2022 6:35 PM, Rui Fontes wrote:

And everybody have forgoten a screen reader developed in Brasil, named Virtual Vision...

 

Rui Fontes

 

Às 00:28 de 19/07/2022, Gene escreveu:

the article is interesting and it has good information about JAWS and NVDA.  But it has problems.  It should have said something about Window-eyes because a lot of people used it and it was a good screen-reader.  It helped in development of screen-reader innovations in ways that should have been noted.

But a serious problem in the article is that it gives the reader the impression that there shouldn't need to be independently developed screen-readers if developers of software built accessibility into them.  This is erroneous for two reasons.

First, yes, accessibility should be built into programs and operating systems but we have been better served by screen-readers being developed outside of operating system programmers.  We are much better off having choices when it  comes  to Windows screen-readers.  It is a constantly stated truism that some screen-readers work better with some programs than others.  If Microsoft had developed a good screen-reader from the outset, we would probably only have one screen-reader and even if we would benefit from having more, we wouldn't. 

The article doesn't discuss this at all and the author is evidently completely unaware of the arguments about which is better, one screen-reader developed by the developers of an operating system or what exists regarding Windows.

I think we are much better off as things are. 

Gene

On 7/14/2022 10:06 PM, Laurie Mehta via groups.io wrote:

Hi,

I came across this today and am sharing it here because I think that many here will find it interesting. (Link below my name…)

-Laurie

 

The hidden history of screen readers

 

 

https://www.theverge.com/23203911/screen-readers-history-blind-henter-curran-teh-nvda

 

 

 

 

 

 


Re: Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

Sharni-Lee Ward
 

Since Eloquence is paid and I don't like it anyways, that's not an option for me. I dunno how, if at all, those packs would help, and I don't want to change synths. Anything without inflection settings (including most paid synths) sounds woeful to my discerning ears.

On 25/07/2022 6:30 am, Shawn via groups.io wrote:
The question is did you switch ESpeak's language to Japanese. With some synths, they just won't work with Japanese or some other foreign alphabets at all unless you add language packs in Windows. I just opened a Japanese Wikipedia page with the following results. Japanese Eloquence read it in Japanese. ESpeak Japanese read Japanese letter this, Chinese letter that. You may want to check out this page about installing language packs in Windows, or find a synth that will work without them.

https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsupport.microsoft.com%2Fen-us%2Fwindows%2Flanguage-packs-for-windows-a5094319-a92d-18de-5b53-1cfc697cfca8&;data=05%7C01%7C%7Ca7bb77b5ae214a5c60df08da6db3539e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637942914239707766%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&amp;sdata=8LExDKrMOyFnZ6j5bx0i0zGGWO3dkvo48rzzfzWFD%2BA%3D&amp;reserved=0

Shawn Klein

On 7/24/2022 12:58 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:
The New Releases page said that Japanese was added to Espeak as well as the packaged Braille Tables. I want to learn Japanese (I started learning in school, then left school, and that was a good fifteen years ago now), and just found out the browser version of Duolingo is accessible with NVDA.


However, I've checked with a couple things (I'm a part of a number of anime fandoms), and NVDA doesn't switch to Japanese when reading passages, instead continuing to say "Japanese-letter" several times, or if I'm scrolling over it, "Japanese-letter" plus several numbers that I suppose are it's unicode designation? But anyways, it is not reflecting the addition of the language bank in Espeak NG. And I know the ProTalker addon has not been compatible for years, though even if it were, there were some weird pronunciation issues with even that.


Is there something I am missing here?








Re: Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

Sharni-Lee Ward
 

This makes me sad. I just wanna learn the language I had to drop in school because I couldn't afford to take the course then, and Duolingo is free... But also there is the problem of Kanji symbols, which are interpreted as Chinese characters (which to be fair, they were first, but not in the context I need them in). Getting NVDA to do two languages simultaneously seems to be beyond us and I am saddened.

On 25/07/2022 4:25 am, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Sun, Jul 24, 2022 at 02:13 PM, David Goldfield wrote:
Also, if we’re talking about a Web page the developer(s) of the page need to be using the language attribute correctly. Just having the page being written or displayed in the Japanese language won’t switch the synth language to Japanese if English is still being used as the default or primary language.
-
I'll just say that this completely accurate observation can be extended to any document where multiple languages are used.  It is up to the author(s) of said material to correctly specify when a language is switching away from, and back to, the primary language and to specify correctly what language is being switched to.

If none of that's in place there is currently no AI involved as far as knowing that a language has switched.  Switching is directly dependent on the necessary markers being present in the source material.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

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