Date   

Re: Article on Screen Reader History (including NVDA)

Ken Perry
 

I think the difference comes down to the people who  want a fast tool synth to those who want their computers to sound more human.  I am much more into having speed than a human speaker.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2022 11:05 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Article on Screen Reader History (including NVDA)

 

In this case, we have had synthesizers of the more natural voice type competing with Eloquence since the early 2000's as I recall.  I understand that different people prefer different synthesizers but fifteen or more years is too long a time for the initial advantage to be maintained to the extent that the preference for Eloquence evidently exists.

Gene
On 7/22/2022 9:57 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 10:53 AM, Gene wrote:

That may account for its initial popularity but it doesn't account for its continued popularity when so many other synthesizers are available. 

-
You don't account for the fact that "whatever got there first" often tends to have real staying power even when superior alternatives appear later.  "It's what I'm used to," is a very powerful deterrent to change in many instances.

And the above is not meant to ignore the rest of what you've said.  But it is often the case that what came first, or very early on, that became very widely accepted remains so even after something demonstrably better has come along.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment.

        ~ Dorothy Nevill

 


Re: Article on Screen Reader History (including NVDA)

Ken Perry
 

 

I don’t know that they have advanced so much.  The best combination of Word processor and screen reader still is ASAP and word 5.1 (I still have a laptop that runs both and use a DecTalk Express s with it) There are a lot of combinations like that that far out strip using things like NVDA and Word and or Jaws and word.  I would almost call it a twostep.  In many cases we take two steps forward and one step back.  In some cases it’s the opposite we take 1 step forward and two back.    Using command line shells like telnet was much better than it currently is with Jaws and NVDA only because the MsDos screen readers let you configure the command line apps like Pine much better.  Now days it is harder to use things like pine and  editors in the shell unless you just switch to Linux and use speakup for the command line.   Oh well I am sure I am showing my age in this post I just wanted to say I don’t think Screen readers actually have advanced that much.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 3:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Article on Screen Reader History (including NVDA)

 

On Sun, Jul 24, 2022 at 05:20 AM, Gene wrote:

I'm not sure this is the place to go into at length how much screen-readers have advanced since they first came out but they have advanced enormously.

-
I have allowed this topic to go on well past any direct involvement with NVDA, and that's because it is of clear interest to a large number among the readership and this "walk down memory lane" has blessedly remained constrained to this single topic.  I see no point in shutting it down now, nor of trying to steer it back to NVDA, either.  We're so deep into thread drift territory that there's no turning back.  I can't recall the last topic that made it to over 110 posts and counting.

If anyone has tired of this topic, and would rather not see one more post from it, that's what the "Mute this Topic" link at the end of every message that gets sent was put there for.  Activate it.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard


Re: addOn Updater 2.8 and checking both International and Spanish-only NVDA?

Brian's Mail list account
 

Well you would hardly need windows essentials if you were as I am using windows 7, would you?
grin.
Brian

--
bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media)
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2022 3:19 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] addOn Updater 2.8 and checking both International and Spanish-only NVDA?


Hi,

Add-on update source option was added in 22.08. Also, note that some Add-on Updater settings panel options are unavailable unless you are using Windows 10 and NVDA is actually installed, particularly update notification combo box.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

Quentin Christensen
 

Hi Sharni-Lee,

Just confirming what David said, the issue sounds like it is an issue with the pages on DuoLingo not correctly tagging the change of language.

The best approach then, is to contact DuoLingo and encourage them to add Lang attributes when the language changes on pages.  I have done that myself, but would encourage anyone affected or interested to do so also - the more people report things like this, the more likely it is to get fixed.

Kind regards

Quentin.


On Mon, Jul 25, 2022 at 3:58 AM Sharni-Lee Ward <sharni-lee.ward@...> wrote:
The New Releases page said that Japanese was added to Espeak as well as
the packaged Braille Tables. I want to learn Japanese (I started
learning in school, then left school, and that was a good fifteen years
ago now), and just found out the browser version of Duolingo is
accessible with NVDA.


However, I've checked with a couple things (I'm a part of a number of
anime fandoms), and NVDA doesn't switch to Japanese when reading
passages, instead continuing to say "Japanese-letter" several times, or
if I'm scrolling over it, "Japanese-letter" plus several numbers that I
suppose are it's unicode designation? But anyways, it is not reflecting
the addition of the language bank in Espeak NG. And I know the ProTalker
addon has not been compatible for years, though even if it were, there
were some weird pronunciation issues with even that.


Is there something I am missing here?








--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Re: Article on Screen Reader History (including NVDA)

Sean Murphy
 

WinVision did have such a feature. It died due to trying to use DOS concepts on a windows GUI. It just didn’t transfer across nicely. In fact, before Windows came out, I felt the company had lost their way. I moved to Vocal-eyes around the time Win 3.1 came out. Tried to use OS2 Screen Reader and the Dos version from IBM. Just never had the time or energy to built the required scripts and functionality. The OS2 screen reader was really powerful. IBM had really thought it out well and baked it into the OS from memory. The problem it was to complex to learn.

 

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Goldfield
Sent: Monday, 25 July 2022 6:59 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Article on Screen Reader History (including NVDA)

 

I have wanted to participate in this discussion since it started as I clearly remember many of the DOS screen readers and how the Windows accessibility landscape unfolded as I was working in the a.t. industry during that time I avoided doing so as I saw it not relevant to the purpose of this list. However, since Brian has made it clear that he’s permitting it I’m going to respond to messages in this thread.

 

As for browse mode and virtual cursor functions not being available in early screen readers I think this depends on how you define early. Window-Eyes was the first screen reader that I remember using this paradigm in the late ‘90s and JAWS added it in version 3.3. Window-Eyes implemented it using MSAA and it was so slow that waiting for pages to load was unbearable. JAWS added the capability a year or so later but pages were rendered much faster even on computers which we would now consider to be painfully slow. When I wrote a blog post paying tribute to Window-Eyes I was also advised by a reader that Artic Winvision added a similar feature but not being a Winvision user I can’t verify this.

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 5:21 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Article on Screen Reader History (including NVDA)

 

I'm not sure this is the place to go into at length how much screen-readers have advanced since they first came out but they have advanced enormously.  For just one example, there was no Browse Mode or Virtual PC Cursor in early screen-readers. 

Gene

On 7/24/2022 4:00 AM, Sean Murphy wrote:

The screen reader for OS2 was released in 1992 Sept. Not sure if this was before Window Bridge or not. The wiki article on Outspoken indicated it was released for the Mac in 1989. This is interesting. Has screen readers really developed beyond what they were like in the 90’s?

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, 20 July 2022 1:16 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Article on Screen Reader History (including NVDA)

 

On Tue, Jul 19, 2022 at 10:41 PM, Dan Thompson wrote:

I would love to read the article on screen readers when it is available.

-
Uh, it's what started this entire topic.

The Hidden History of Screen Readers: For decades, blind programmers have been creating the tools their community needs
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment.

        ~ Dorothy Nevill

 


Re: SSH issues with NVDA

Akash Kakkar
 

Yes, windows terminal application.

I use this addon, but still those issue occur

On 7/25/2022 12:41 PM, Jacob Kruger wrote:
When you mention the name windows terminal, are you referring to the actual windows terminal software, or just cmd.exe, which is the normal command line application?


Ask since I use SSH on a regular basis via cmd.exe, and, it generally works fine for me in the context of text editing/review?


Otherwise, just in case, would the console toolkit add-on help at all:

https://addons.nvda-project.org/addons/consoleToolkit.en.html


Jacob Kruger
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."
On 2022-07-25 09:03 AM, Akash Kakkar wrote:
Hey all,

So I'm facing some issues while using SSH in conjunction with NVDA, it is happening since more than 2 years but I didn't got the time to report it.

I'm using windows terminal and NVDA works really well with it.

Editting the text, navigating, deleting everything is completely fine.

However, when we SSH into a server and try to navigate the text which we have typed, NVDA gives some lag and also I've observed that it reports the characters incorrectly.

Same happens with deleting the text with backspace too.

For example, let's say I've typed: "sudo"

I'll press left arrow and my focus is on "u" however, NVDA may report "d" or "s" incorrectly.

Why is so?

Has anyone observed these issues?

Am I missing something?
I've used both NVDA Stable as well as NVDA snapshot builds and Windows terminal stable and preview builds, but same issue persists.








NVDA number pronunciation

amaan sherani
 

Respected members of the NVDA group,

I am Amaan,

I am having issue in numbers, means whenever,

My NVDA reads the number which digits are more then 100 thousand,

It read like this:

One, zero zero, two, zero.

Thus, how can I make it read like this:

One million 42 thousand 587

Any help will be appreciated.

 

Kind regards

Amaan Sherani

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 


Re: SSH issues with NVDA

Jacob Kruger
 

When you mention the name windows terminal, are you referring to the actual windows terminal software, or just cmd.exe, which is the normal command line application?


Ask since I use SSH on a regular basis via cmd.exe, and, it generally works fine for me in the context of text editing/review?


Otherwise, just in case, would the console toolkit add-on help at all:

https://addons.nvda-project.org/addons/consoleToolkit.en.html


Jacob Kruger
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 2022-07-25 09:03 AM, Akash Kakkar wrote:
Hey all,

So I'm facing some issues while using SSH in conjunction with NVDA, it is happening since more than 2 years but I didn't got the time to report it.

I'm using windows terminal and NVDA works really well with it.

Editting the text, navigating, deleting everything is completely fine.

However, when we SSH into a server and try to navigate the text which we have typed, NVDA gives some lag and also I've observed that it reports the characters incorrectly.

Same happens with deleting the text with backspace too.

For example, let's say I've typed: "sudo"

I'll press left arrow and my focus is on "u" however, NVDA may report "d" or "s" incorrectly.

Why is so?

Has anyone observed these issues?

Am I missing something?
I've used both NVDA Stable as well as NVDA snapshot builds and Windows terminal stable and preview builds, but same issue persists.





SSH issues with NVDA

Akash Kakkar
 

Hey all,

So I'm facing some issues while using SSH in conjunction with NVDA, it is happening since more than 2 years but I didn't got the time to report it.

I'm using windows terminal and NVDA works really well with it.

Editting the text, navigating, deleting everything is completely fine.

However, when we SSH into a server and try to navigate the text which we have typed, NVDA gives some lag and also I've observed that it reports the characters incorrectly.

Same happens with deleting the text with backspace too.

For example, let's say I've typed: "sudo"

I'll press left arrow and my focus is on "u" however, NVDA may report "d" or "s" incorrectly.

Why is so?

Has anyone observed these issues?

Am I missing something?
I've used both NVDA Stable as well as NVDA snapshot builds and Windows terminal stable and preview builds, but same issue persists.


Re: update eloquence/vocaliser codefactory add-on

Michael Micallef at FITA
 

Thank you very much David.  Much appreciated.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Goldfield via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, 24 July 2022 18:53
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] update eloquence/vocaliser codefactory add-on
Sensitivity: Personal

 

CAUTION: This email originated from OUTSIDE the Government Email Infrastructure. DO NOT CLICK LINKS or OPEN attachments unless you recognise the sender and know the content is safe.

 

Hi. You can download the latest Eloquence/Vocalizer software from the following link.

https://codefactoryglobal.com/app-store/voices-for-nvda/

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Michael Micallef at FITA
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 1:32 AM
To: nvda mailing list (nvda@nvda.groups.io) <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [nvda] update eloquence/vocaliser codefactory add-on
Sensitivity: Personal

 

Dear NVDA Users,

 

I have the nvda2022.2 installed on my syste m but now I need to update my eloquence/vocaliser add-on from codefactory.es.

 

So how I  can get the eloquence/vocaliser fully compatible with the latest nvda2022.2 version?

 

Kind regards


Re: Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

Shawn
 

It can do that, some Wikipedia articles are set up that way like the one for Japan.

Shawn Klein

On 7/24/2022 7:28 PM, Gene wrote:

But is the language attribute supposed to change if a page is mostly in one language and parts of a page are in another language?  I had thought, perhaps incorrectly, that the language attribute occurs near the beginning of the code on a page and that it is used once to identify the major language of the page.

Gene

On 7/24/2022 5:00 PM, David Goldfield wrote:

Sharni-Lee,

No problem. I would encourage you to contact support and ask them to use the language attribute. For reference, here’s a page which discusses the relevant WCAG criterion.

https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/language-of-parts.html

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sharni-Lee Ward
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 5:54 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

I was responding to each message as I read it, so I didn't see yours until after I wrote that.

 

I don't think the Duolingo site does this, sadly. I started in on Spanish this morning, and NVDA didn't change language for the Spanish words, meaning the pronunciation was botched 80% of the time by the screen-reader. They have little voice clips whenever you press a button corresponding with a non-English word though, so at least I won't be botching pronunciations.

 

This will not help me with Japanese if I can't hear the symbols being properly identified, of course.

On 25/07/2022 7:30 am, David Goldfield wrote:

Sharni-Lee wrote:

> I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese,

 

As I wrote this can only happen if the Web site uses a specific language attribute in their code when switching to a new language. The code is normally hidden but it tells the Web site, “Hey, this next block of text that I’m about to write is actually Japanese.” When writing English text a similar code needs to be entered which tells the Web site, “the following text is in English.” Of course, NVDA needs to have language switching enabled in the Voices dialog, as well.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sharni-Lee Ward
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 5:03 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese, be it a single line or a passage in the midst of English instructions. It does not currently do this and this could pose problems when learning. The ProTalker addon used to do it but alas...

On 25/07/2022 4:13 am, David Goldfield wrote:

Also, if we’re talking about a Web page the developer(s) of the page need to be using the language attribute correctly. Just having the page being written or displayed in the Japanese language won’t switch the synth language to Japanese if English is still being used as the default or primary language.

Of course, if the synth has been set to Japanese and if it’s still not speaking correctly then this is a bit outside of my wheelhouse.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 2:09 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

Do you have automatic language switching turned on in Speech settings?

Also, and this is not meant as snarky, are you certain you are using Espeak as your synth?  I'd also suggest, once you're certain that automatic language switching is turned on in NVDA, that you give the Microsoft OneCore Japanese a try, if for no other reason than testing.  It does support text to speech.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard



Re: Add-on Updater and Windows Ap Essentials 22.08 #addonrelease

 

Hi all,

Update: Add-on Updater and Windows App Essentials are now being deployed via Add-on Updater.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: addOn Updater 2.8 and checking both International and Spanish-only NVDA?

 

Hi,

Toggling update sources with a dedicated command: no. When you switch update sources, you are effectively telling NVDA (via Add-on Updater) to get add-on update metadata from a different website, which may or may not have all add-ons you've got and/or offer different versions and/or report different compatibility statements. This is why you'l get a confirmation message after switching to a different update source from Add-on Updater settings.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: addOn Updater 2.8 and checking both International and Spanish-only NVDA?

hurrikennyandopo ...
 

Hi Joseph


It looked when I updated to the latest add on with a 8 on it it went back to the previous version. I since then uninstalled the add on updater with the 7 which should of been 8 then reinstalled the latest and the options have came back.


All is good I see both sites but would be curious about the second question where or if you could toggle between the 2 sites with a gesture but did not find one so then it was not a option.


Could this be a option in a future release?


Gene nz


 

On 25/07/2022 1:34 pm, hurrikennyandopo ... wrote:

Hi Joseph


In the latest release of the add on updater in the other version of it it let me go between the 2 websites to get addons but noticed when it updated that option is not there any more.

I think that one ended with a 7 and the one I just got ends in a 8 here the option has gone.


The second question was under the settings for the add on updater where it gave 2 options was there a gesture to toogle between the 2 sites instead of going into the settings each time I could not find one so guess there was not.


The update of the add on I just did just then you gave there is no option now for the 2 sites.


Gene nz

 

On 25/07/2022 10:14 am, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

Regarding the first question, ideally, yes but hard to do in practical terms. When opening websites, because sites are hosted around the world, it may take a while for some sites to load. For computers, the slowest component (usually memory, disk, and other hardware) contributes to overall performance. While it doesn't take long to gather add-on update metadata from both sites, there are times when Add-on Updater must locate the actual download ink for an add-on update, which is why it takes up to several seconds for the add-on to check for updates. This is for one site, now imagine doing this for multiple websites, and in this scenario, the site that is slowest to respond takes up significant portion of update check progress. Also, remember that different update sources may say different things about an add-on - some may give conflicting compatibility information for an add-on update, while another site may offer an older version of a compatible add-on. For these reasons, I decided to at least offer users a setting to configure update sources.

As for the second question, I advise keeping Tienda (see a reply from Jose-Manuel). This is why I intentionally told Add-on Updater (via add-on source code) to not check for updates for Tienda as that add-on is essentially the add-on store for the Spanish community. In an earlier Twitter thread, I assured Jose-Manuel that Add-on Updater is a client, not a full store like Tienda is, knowing that many of you from Spain and other Spanish-speaking countries rely on Tienda to meet their add-on needs. Same can be said about the French community and other language communities with their own dedicated add-ons repositories (I once thought about talking to French community about letting Add-on Updater check for updates from their repository; my personal rule is that I must obtain consent from communities before I can ask Add-on Updater to check for updates from new repos in future add-on releases; I'm indeed open to this proposal and would love to talk to French community members about it in the fall as it takes about a day or two to add new add-on repositories).

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: addOn Updater 2.8 and checking both International and Spanish-only NVDA?

 

Hi,

Add-on update source option was added in 22.08. Also, note that some Add-on Updater settings panel options are unavailable unless you are using Windows 10 and NVDA is actually installed, particularly update notification combo box.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: addOn Updater 2.8 and checking both International and Spanish-only NVDA?

hurrikennyandopo ...
 

Hi Joseph


In the latest release of the add on updater in the other version of it it let me go between the 2 websites to get addons but noticed when it updated that option is not there any more.

I think that one ended with a 7 and the one I just got ends in a 8 here the option has gone.


The second question was under the settings for the add on updater where it gave 2 options was there a gesture to toogle between the 2 sites instead of going into the settings each time I could not find one so guess there was not.


The update of the add on I just did just then you gave there is no option now for the 2 sites.


Gene nz

 

On 25/07/2022 10:14 am, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

Regarding the first question, ideally, yes but hard to do in practical terms. When opening websites, because sites are hosted around the world, it may take a while for some sites to load. For computers, the slowest component (usually memory, disk, and other hardware) contributes to overall performance. While it doesn't take long to gather add-on update metadata from both sites, there are times when Add-on Updater must locate the actual download ink for an add-on update, which is why it takes up to several seconds for the add-on to check for updates. This is for one site, now imagine doing this for multiple websites, and in this scenario, the site that is slowest to respond takes up significant portion of update check progress. Also, remember that different update sources may say different things about an add-on - some may give conflicting compatibility information for an add-on update, while another site may offer an older version of a compatible add-on. For these reasons, I decided to at least offer users a setting to configure update sources.

As for the second question, I advise keeping Tienda (see a reply from Jose-Manuel). This is why I intentionally told Add-on Updater (via add-on source code) to not check for updates for Tienda as that add-on is essentially the add-on store for the Spanish community. In an earlier Twitter thread, I assured Jose-Manuel that Add-on Updater is a client, not a full store like Tienda is, knowing that many of you from Spain and other Spanish-speaking countries rely on Tienda to meet their add-on needs. Same can be said about the French community and other language communities with their own dedicated add-ons repositories (I once thought about talking to French community about letting Add-on Updater check for updates from their repository; my personal rule is that I must obtain consent from communities before I can ask Add-on Updater to check for updates from new repos in future add-on releases; I'm indeed open to this proposal and would love to talk to French community members about it in the fall as it takes about a day or two to add new add-on repositories).

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: Article on Screen Reader History (including NVDA)

Gene
 

I don't know how you use explore by mouse but you are not using any screen-reader as intended as a blind user if you review the screen using screen review methods where using standard navigation keys such as the arrow keys and read to end work. 

If you used browse mode on web pages, as intended, you would read the web page as though you were moving through a word processor document using the virtual cursor provided in browse mode. 

Gene

On 7/24/2022 6:06 PM, Russell James wrote:

Thank you for sharing this article and for allowing the discussion!

I enjoyed reading the article and was not aware of some of the history.

I was reading the article using Firefox and NVDA
I ran into multiple accessibility issues while reading
Probably because I was reading using explore by mouse...  :-)

I started using screen readers for software development work in the 1980's
That was when GW Micro was selling/supporting Vocal-Eyes for DOS.
I went on for years using DOS based interfaces to other systems to leverage Vocal-Eyes for my work.
Vocal-Eyes and the GW Micro developers and technical support team were incredible!

When Windows 3 was coming I learned that GW Micro would be providing Window-Eyes.
While I was concerned about using agraphical user interface I was confident GW Micro would be there to support me and my work.
Window-Eyes and GW Micro never let me down until they were acquired...
I used Window-Eyes from Windows 3.1 up through Windows 10!

I was spoiled by Window-Eyes and explore by mouse!
I adopted this random access method for reading content on the screen.

When I learned that Window-Eyes may not be available in the future I turned to NVDA.
Eventually I pushed myself to make NVDA my primary screen reader.
I would usually have Window-Eyes installed in case I ran into problems with NVDA.
When I shared my desire for explore by mouse with the NVDA developers
They simply told me I was using it wrong...

As I learned from reading this article, I must still be using NVDA the wrong way...  :-)

I wish GW Micro and Window-Eyes were still a supported option!

I have never used any other screen reader for Windows.

Russ

On Sun, Jul 24, 2022 at 4:59 PM David Goldfield <david.goldfield@...> wrote:

I have wanted to participate in this discussion since it started as I clearly remember many of the DOS screen readers and how the Windows accessibility landscape unfolded as I was working in the a.t. industry during that time I avoided doing so as I saw it not relevant to the purpose of this list. However, since Brian has made it clear that he’s permitting it I’m going to respond to messages in this thread.

 

As for browse mode and virtual cursor functions not being available in early screen readers I think this depends on how you define early. Window-Eyes was the first screen reader that I remember using this paradigm in the late ‘90s and JAWS added it in version 3.3. Window-Eyes implemented it using MSAA and it was so slow that waiting for pages to load was unbearable. JAWS added the capability a year or so later but pages were rendered much faster even on computers which we would now consider to be painfully slow. When I wrote a blog post paying tribute to Window-Eyes I was also advised by a reader that Artic Winvision added a similar feature but not being a Winvision user I can’t verify this.

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

JAWS Certified, 2022

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 5:21 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Article on Screen Reader History (including NVDA)

 

I'm not sure this is the place to go into at length how much screen-readers have advanced since they first came out but they have advanced enormously.  For just one example, there was no Browse Mode or Virtual PC Cursor in early screen-readers. 

Gene

On 7/24/2022 4:00 AM, Sean Murphy wrote:

The screen reader for OS2 was released in 1992 Sept. Not sure if this was before Window Bridge or not. The wiki article on Outspoken indicated it was released for the Mac in 1989. This is interesting. Has screen readers really developed beyond what they were like in the 90’s?

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, 20 July 2022 1:16 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Article on Screen Reader History (including NVDA)

 

On Tue, Jul 19, 2022 at 10:41 PM, Dan Thompson wrote:

I would love to read the article on screen readers when it is available.

-
Uh, it's what started this entire topic.

The Hidden History of Screen Readers: For decades, blind programmers have been creating the tools their community needs
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment.

        ~ Dorothy Nevill

 



Re: Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

Gene
 

But is the language attribute supposed to change if a page is mostly in one language and parts of a page are in another language?  I had thought, perhaps incorrectly, that the language attribute occurs near the beginning of the code on a page and that it is used once to identify the major language of the page.

Gene

On 7/24/2022 5:00 PM, David Goldfield wrote:

Sharni-Lee,

No problem. I would encourage you to contact support and ask them to use the language attribute. For reference, here’s a page which discusses the relevant WCAG criterion.

https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/language-of-parts.html

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sharni-Lee Ward
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 5:54 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

I was responding to each message as I read it, so I didn't see yours until after I wrote that.

 

I don't think the Duolingo site does this, sadly. I started in on Spanish this morning, and NVDA didn't change language for the Spanish words, meaning the pronunciation was botched 80% of the time by the screen-reader. They have little voice clips whenever you press a button corresponding with a non-English word though, so at least I won't be botching pronunciations.

 

This will not help me with Japanese if I can't hear the symbols being properly identified, of course.

On 25/07/2022 7:30 am, David Goldfield wrote:

Sharni-Lee wrote:

> I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese,

 

As I wrote this can only happen if the Web site uses a specific language attribute in their code when switching to a new language. The code is normally hidden but it tells the Web site, “Hey, this next block of text that I’m about to write is actually Japanese.” When writing English text a similar code needs to be entered which tells the Web site, “the following text is in English.” Of course, NVDA needs to have language switching enabled in the Voices dialog, as well.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sharni-Lee Ward
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 5:03 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese, be it a single line or a passage in the midst of English instructions. It does not currently do this and this could pose problems when learning. The ProTalker addon used to do it but alas...

On 25/07/2022 4:13 am, David Goldfield wrote:

Also, if we’re talking about a Web page the developer(s) of the page need to be using the language attribute correctly. Just having the page being written or displayed in the Japanese language won’t switch the synth language to Japanese if English is still being used as the default or primary language.

Of course, if the synth has been set to Japanese and if it’s still not speaking correctly then this is a bit outside of my wheelhouse.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 2:09 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

Do you have automatic language switching turned on in Speech settings?

Also, and this is not meant as snarky, are you certain you are using Espeak as your synth?  I'd also suggest, once you're certain that automatic language switching is turned on in NVDA, that you give the Microsoft OneCore Japanese a try, if for no other reason than testing.  It does support text to speech.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard



Re: Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

David Goldfield
 

As far as I’m aware screen readers don’t use AI to detect and then switch languages.

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 8:24 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

This topic raises an interesting question.  Do any screen-readers currently use AI to switch languages because the screen-reader detects a language change without the need for an attribute in the code of the page?

Gene

On 7/24/2022 4:30 PM, David Goldfield wrote:

Sharni-Lee wrote:

> I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese,

 

As I wrote this can only happen if the Web site uses a specific language attribute in their code when switching to a new language. The code is normally hidden but it tells the Web site, “Hey, this next block of text that I’m about to write is actually Japanese.” When writing English text a similar code needs to be entered which tells the Web site, “the following text is in English.” Of course, NVDA needs to have language switching enabled in the Voices dialog, as well.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sharni-Lee Ward
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 5:03 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese, be it a single line or a passage in the midst of English instructions. It does not currently do this and this could pose problems when learning. The ProTalker addon used to do it but alas...

On 25/07/2022 4:13 am, David Goldfield wrote:

Also, if we’re talking about a Web page the developer(s) of the page need to be using the language attribute correctly. Just having the page being written or displayed in the Japanese language won’t switch the synth language to Japanese if English is still being used as the default or primary language.

Of course, if the synth has been set to Japanese and if it’s still not speaking correctly then this is a bit outside of my wheelhouse.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 2:09 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

Do you have automatic language switching turned on in Speech settings?

Also, and this is not meant as snarky, are you certain you are using Espeak as your synth?  I'd also suggest, once you're certain that automatic language switching is turned on in NVDA, that you give the Microsoft OneCore Japanese a try, if for no other reason than testing.  It does support text to speech.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

 


Re: Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

Gene
 

This topic raises an interesting question.  Do any screen-readers currently use AI to switch languages because the screen-reader detects a language change without the need for an attribute in the code of the page?

Gene

On 7/24/2022 4:30 PM, David Goldfield wrote:

Sharni-Lee wrote:

> I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese,

 

As I wrote this can only happen if the Web site uses a specific language attribute in their code when switching to a new language. The code is normally hidden but it tells the Web site, “Hey, this next block of text that I’m about to write is actually Japanese.” When writing English text a similar code needs to be entered which tells the Web site, “the following text is in English.” Of course, NVDA needs to have language switching enabled in the Voices dialog, as well.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sharni-Lee Ward
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 5:03 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese, be it a single line or a passage in the midst of English instructions. It does not currently do this and this could pose problems when learning. The ProTalker addon used to do it but alas...

On 25/07/2022 4:13 am, David Goldfield wrote:

Also, if we’re talking about a Web page the developer(s) of the page need to be using the language attribute correctly. Just having the page being written or displayed in the Japanese language won’t switch the synth language to Japanese if English is still being used as the default or primary language.

Of course, if the synth has been set to Japanese and if it’s still not speaking correctly then this is a bit outside of my wheelhouse.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 2:09 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

Do you have automatic language switching turned on in Speech settings?

Also, and this is not meant as snarky, are you certain you are using Espeak as your synth?  I'd also suggest, once you're certain that automatic language switching is turned on in NVDA, that you give the Microsoft OneCore Japanese a try, if for no other reason than testing.  It does support text to speech.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard


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