Date   

Important announcement on Joseph Lee's add-ons: please upgrade to NVDA 2022.2 ASAP, support policy changes

 

Hello everyone,

Hope you are enjoying NVDA 2022.2. But even then, let us not forget that we are in the midst of a pandemic, conflicts abound, and things are uncertain at this moment.

The following notice applies to people using Add-on Updater and Windows App Essentials as this amounts to a major add-on support policy notice:

As folks may know, throughout July I have worked on Project Meteor, a project to rewrite vast parts of Add-on Updater which became part of version 22.08. But that wasn’t the only thing in my mind: I kept coming back to the question of how to support people using soon to be unsupported Windows releases, and I keep hearing rumors about changes to Windows development plan from Microsoft. Adding to the mix is latest changes to NVDA source code, specifically preparations being made for NVDA 2022.3 beta. After assessing the situation and analyzing recent add-on support plans I made, I decided that consistency is better than complicating things for users. Therefore, I announce three major changes to support policy for Add-on Updater and Windows App Essentials: one for Add-on Updater, two for Windows App Essentials.

First, both add-ons will require NVDA 2022.2 this September. Typically I support up to two past NVDA stable releases, more so for Windows App Essentials. However, given that important parts of Windows App Essentials are now part of NVDA (as of 2022.2), I believe that it makes sense to standardize around 2022.2, both for consistency and to reduce maintenance burden. Therefore, instead of 2022.1, Windows App Essentials will ask you to use 2022.2 starting from September (likely with 22.09).

Second, after considering maintenance burden and complexity, I’m scrapping Add-on Updater Nightlight altogether. Nightlight, meant to provide minimal service on Windows 7 and 8.1, consist of two parts: turning off automatic updates, and disallowing development add-on releases. This means apart from features requiring Windows 10 and 11, folks using old Windows releases will be able to continue to check for add-on updates and can instruct NVDA to do so automatically and/or update to development builds. But please remember: once Microsoft ends support for Windows 7 and 8.1 (the latter for everyone in January 2023), you are on your own – I will not provide new features specific to old Windows releases from January 2023 onwards, so consider this a feature freeze announcement for Windows 7 and 8.1.

Third, regarding Windows App Essentials, a prominent tech press cited by other sources indicate that Microsoft might be changing Windows development schedule. Details are uncertain, but if this is correct, it can bring a major change to Windows as a Service (WaaS) concept. If this change does become real, it can lead to a situation where it becomes possible to add changes to a Windows 11 feature update just prior for it being discontinued for consumers (unlikely but possible), and changes will be more frequent. For Windows App Essentials, this means it becomes harder to plan when to drop a feature update (tentative plan is to end support for Windows 10 November 2021 Update and Windows 11 original release in March and July 2023, respectively, a few months prior to end of consumer support), making my life a bit harder as well. Therefore for sake of consistency and to respond to rumored changes to Windows development schedule, as well as to prepare the way for someone to maintain this add-on if I do end maintenance for it, I’m changing feature update support duration so it aligns with consumer support duration (18 months for Windows 10, two years for Windows 11); for example, with this policy change, end of support for Windows 10 November 2021 Update will be June 2023 instead of March 2023; as always, development snapshots will ask you to upgrade to newer feature updates a few months prior. While this change takes effect with upcoming 22H2 feature updates, I’ll apply this policy change to 21H2 releases for consistency. The only exception is the very last feature update for Windows 10 which will be supported until end of 2025 (officially until October 2025 but a grace period will be added) provided that I’m still maintaining the add-on by then.

The key takeaway is this: for users of Joseph Lee’s add-ons, please upgrade to NVDA 2022.2 no later than end of August 2022, preferably as soon as possible (by the way, add-ons compatible with NVDA 2022.1 are also compatible with 2022.2, and some add-ons might be using features from 2022.2 for various things). For folks using Windows App Essentials development builds, NVDA 2022.2 requirement will take effect with the second snapshot of August (next week).

Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

Rui Fontes
 

Remember that SAPI5 do not allow automatic language switch, at least natively in NVDA...


Rui Fontes


Às 16:40 de 26/07/2022, Gene escreveu:

I would suggest getting the SAPI5 Eloquence version, not the add-on.  You can use the SAPI5 version with any screen-reader that supports SAPI5 and you  don't have to worry about which version of NVDA you use it with.  NVDA supports SAPI5 regardless of version.

You can try a demo to see if it does what you want.  If no one gives information soon about where to get a demo, I'll check. 

Gene

On 7/26/2022 10:33 AM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:

Actually, while I'm thinking about it, how much is the Eloquence addon? And is it a one-time payment? I know Jaws is subscription-based now (at least, I think that's what the deal is, and last I heard you had to pay for new updates, which I always thought was a d*ck move), but is the Eloquence addon by itself a one-time payment? If so, I may consider investing in it for circumstances such as this.

On 25/07/2022 7:10 am, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:
Since Eloquence is paid and I don't like it anyways, that's not an option for me. I dunno how, if at all, those packs would help, and I don't want to change synths. Anything without inflection settings (including most paid synths) sounds woeful to my discerning ears.

On 25/07/2022 6:30 am, Shawn via groups.io wrote:
The question is did you switch ESpeak's language to Japanese. With some synths, they just won't work with Japanese or some other foreign alphabets at all unless you add language packs in Windows. I just opened a Japanese Wikipedia page with the following results. Japanese Eloquence read it in Japanese. ESpeak Japanese read Japanese letter this, Chinese letter that. You may want to check out this page about installing language packs in Windows, or find a synth that will work without them.

https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsupport.microsoft.com%2Fen-us%2Fwindows%2Flanguage-packs-for-windows-a5094319-a92d-18de-5b53-1cfc697cfca8&data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce594a98c5f5649b9b50908da6db8ff1a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637942938588515646%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=wI22F3s6GmKeUfXsNNEB9S%2FA9AB83M%2BZLcgwV3FZtuQ%3D&reserved=0

Shawn Klein

On 7/24/2022 12:58 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:
The New Releases page said that Japanese was added to Espeak as well as the packaged Braille Tables. I want to learn Japanese (I started learning in school, then left school, and that was a good fifteen years ago now), and just found out the browser version of Duolingo is accessible with NVDA.


However, I've checked with a couple things (I'm a part of a number of anime fandoms), and NVDA doesn't switch to Japanese when reading passages, instead continuing to say "Japanese-letter" several times, or if I'm scrolling over it, "Japanese-letter" plus several numbers that I suppose are it's unicode designation? But anyways, it is not reflecting the addition of the language bank in Espeak NG. And I know the ProTalker addon has not been compatible for years, though even if it were, there were some weird pronunciation issues with even that.


Is there something I am missing here?


















Re: Tutorials for using Google Drive with NVDA

 

Google has quite a few tutorials on this, and all of them are returned in the top ten search results:  DuckDuckGo search on Google Drive Screen Reader

I could have sworn that one of our semi-regular contributors of YouTube tutorial content, TheeQuinn, had done a tutorial on Google Drive, but a quick check of her YouTube Videos Page indicates I was mistaken.  Still a resource for using NVDA with a huge number of programs and web apps that's worth mentioning.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard


Re: NVDA with Android emulators.

 

Previous discussions here regarding Android Emulators and screen readers:  

Does anyone know if NVDA works with the BlueStacks Android emulator?

Android Emulators


On the BlindAndroidUsers Group, this is the topic I was recalling, and it really doesn't say much of anything that hasn't already been said here:  Revisiting Android Emulators for PC?

--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard


Re: NVDA with Android emulators.

 

On Wed, Jul 27, 2022 at 01:44 PM, udit pandey wrote:
But tell me if it's possible to make nvda work till the installation of talkback.
-
To my knowledge, no, and that's not limited to NVDA.  None of the Windows screen readers do this.

Once you are in the emulated OS environment you have essentially left Windows, and all running Windows programs, until you exit it again.  I had Blue Stacks installed at one point but used it so seldom I removed it.  Someone else here is going to have to discuss how to enable the Android screen reader under an emulator via the keyboard and likely without any feedback as I have no idea how that's done.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard


Re: NVDA with Android emulators.

udit pandey
 

hi Brian,
ok I strongly agree with you. But tell me if it's possible to make nvda work till the installation of talkback. You will say why I am saying this. But sometimes some blind people find it odd to take sited assistance that's why when they use nvda or any other assistive technology they feel independent.
so sorry if someone got her. my intention is not like that.


Tutorials for using Google Drive with NVDA

Marisane Moruthanyana
 

Moderator's Note: This topic should be limited to pointing the individual posting to resources for using Google Drive with a screen reader/NVDA. Actual discussion of the use of Google Drive itself, which is what this topic is likely to devolve into without discipline, should occur on the Chat Subgroup. Most of using Google Drive via the keyboard is not screen-reader dependent and, in fact, doesn't require a screen reader to be in use at all.
-

Good day gentle people

I trust you are all well.

I am trying to cope.

I would like to ask you for an assistance.

I am working with big files and folders and have to share them with my
assistants.

I know that google drive can help me to do this.

However, due to my little knowledge of drive, I need you to assist me
in finding a step-by-step tutorial on google drive using NVDA.

Your assistance is appreciated in advance.
Marisane: SA


Re: NVDA with Android emulators.

udit pandey
 

hi VI Techability ,
you said: "I have seen blind people using it with talkback."
but for your general information, I should tell you my friend its not talkback its subsystem screen reader


Re: NVDA with Android emulators.

 

On Wed, Jul 27, 2022 at 02:52 AM, Ravindran V.S. wrote:
And does NVDA behaves the same in Windows 11 under same conditions in Android Emulator?
-
Unless something has changed, radically, since the use of an Android emulator under Windows last came up, there's no NVDA involvement at all beyond triggering the emulator under Windows.

One should think of an Android Emulator (regardless of which one) as a virtual Android machine running on a Windows box.  When you have focus in that environment, it is entirely under the control of Android itself, so you would need to have Android Accessibility Suite installed and turned on when you "slip into the Android world" the emulator provides.  When focus gets thrown back out of that environment and into Windows, NVDA is right there on deck.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard


Re: Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

Sergey Fleytin
 

Hello Sharni and others,

 

Sharni, I am not sure if it will help solving your issue but there is one blind developer from Germany who created two NVDA add-ons just to deal with automatic language swithing. They support OneCore Voices among others.

 

The LangPredict add-on does not have any settings. It just tries to do what it's name proposes, to guess in which language a portion of text is written.

 

AutoLang add-on on the other hand allows you to select a language and a voice that will be used to it.

 

I believe they are worth for you to try. Below are the links for both of them:

https://slohmaier.de/langpredict-new-nvda-addon

https://github.com/slohmaier/NVDAOneCoreAutoLang26.07.2022 

For SAPI 5 voices we have dual voice add-on which works pretty well. Although I am not sure if this add-on would allow us to configure a Japanese voice.
 
HTH,
 
Sergei
 
 

 

26.07.2022 14:54, Sharni-Lee Ward пишет:

1. This addon/those voices are paid. I did have a cracked version once but I do not wish to do that again.

2. I hate vocalliser. The voices sound bored and flat, I can't get any of them to pronounce things properly, and they honestly all put me to sleep unless they're reading something technical like a recipe book or a list of new additions to the Vision Australia library. Beyond that, for reportedly humanlike voices, they sound even more inhuman than Espeak NG does, and I can max inflection on that!

On 26/07/2022 6:04 am, Rui Fontes wrote:

Hello!

 

Vocalizer Expressive from Tiflotecnia switch automatically the language based in the character set used...

So, in any application, whenever a japanese character is found, the synth will change automatically to japanese... When finding a latin character will go back to english...

Note that this is only possible between languages using different character sets... It will not switch between english and portuguese or between japanese and chinese...

 

Best regards,

Rui Fontes
Tiflotecnia, Lda.
 


Às 22:03 de 24/07/2022, Sharni-Lee Ward escreveu:

I need it to read the English text as normal and the Japanese text as Japanese, be it a single line or a passage in the midst of English instructions. It does not currently do this and this could pose problems when learning. The ProTalker addon used to do it but alas...

On 25/07/2022 4:13 am, David Goldfield wrote:

Also, if we’re talking about a Web page the developer(s) of the page need to be using the language attribute correctly. Just having the page being written or displayed in the Japanese language won’t switch the synth language to Japanese if English is still being used as the default or primary language.

Of course, if the synth has been set to Japanese and if it’s still not speaking correctly then this is a bit outside of my wheelhouse.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2022 2:09 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

 

Do you have automatic language switching turned on in Speech settings?

Also, and this is not meant as snarky, are you certain you are using Espeak as your synth?  I'd also suggest, once you're certain that automatic language switching is turned on in NVDA, that you give the Microsoft OneCore Japanese a try, if for no other reason than testing.  It does support text to speech.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

 


Re: NVDA with Android emulators.

VI Techability
 

hi the android ameulator is totally different it does not deals with nvda so it is not necessary to stop nvda. just turn on talkback on the ameulator and you are good to go. i don't have much info on windows 11 android subsystem but i have seen blind people using it with talkback.


Re: NVDA with Android emulators.

udit pandey
 

hi ravi,
in win 11 there its called as subsystem for android and amazon appstoor but its only for us residents but 99.9% are the pociblity for it to be included for the Indian residents


Re: Article on Screen Reader History (including NVDA)

Gene
 

I don't know why you didn't have problems.  Did either screen-reader you mentioned do any analysis of the screen the way ASAP and ASAW did so that certain parts of the screen would be read automatically? 

In Vocal-eyes, you had to create a set file to automatically do something when information appeared on certain parts of the screen or certain types did.

The following may not have been just how you might have done things, its been a very long time, but you could have done more or less these things:
I didn't use Vocal-eyes except to learn about it but, for example, you might have created a set file to do more or less the following things:
automatically read the address line when an at sign appeared on the from line.
You could have had the subject line read when text changed in the subject line and you could have had the message body automatically read when text changed on that part of the screen.  You could have defined the message body window so  it didn't include unnecessary text such as the commands that appeared at the bottom of the screen, thus not having that information automatically read.

Gene

On 7/27/2022 12:42 AM, Luke Davis wrote:

On Jul 25, Gene wrote:

I remember when, time after time, a new version of Pine came out and users of shell accounts would have to alter the Vocal-ize set file for Pine so the
program would work properly. 

I suspect that was more a deficiency in the way Vocal-Eyes did things, although I never used it so can't be sure.

I know however that all through out the 90s, I used pine via a terminal program, with both the IBM Screen Reader and Tinytalk, and never had to change anything about the screen reader at all to keep using it effectively across multiple pine versions, and even builds for different operating systems.

In general the pine interface (like many of its Ncurses-based brethren) was one of the most unchanging of any full screen programs around for the vast majority of its life span. Up to and including Alpine, its spiritual successor.

And that is not to say anything negative against Vocal-ize, it is to point out how much accessibility has advanced and how much Windows screen-readers now
can work with all sorts of programs without having to be especially caused to work with them.

What I said above not withstanding, I would equate what you describe with having to modify or upgrade JAWS scripts, or NVDA add-ons, to maintain compatibility with changing versions of Windows programs.

Some software always requires the screen reader to have a little help in order to access it, and that help needs to be upgraded from time to time as the software changes.

Personally I wouldn't make any general judgements about accessibility now or then based upon that factor, because in truth it is just as necessary now as it was then, for the subset of cases where it is necessary, whether you call it a script, a set file, or an add-on.

I can use program after program with NVDA or JAWS and those screen-readers aren't scripted or tailored to work specifically with those programs in any way. 

Actually, a lot of times they are. It is just carried internally, without you having to install something like an add-on or script. NVDA, for example, carries something like 100 internal modules dedicated to the support of one specific program each. Not including the more generalized support that underlies it all.
Sometimes they don't have to do much, but fix one little access quirk. Other times they have to do a lot more.
Thunderbird, Zoom, One Password, Windows Mail, all the MS Office applications, Skype, Kindle, iTunes, Windows Explorer, Windows Calculator, are just a few examples of more popular programs that NVDA supports with specific dedicated code.

Because despite what I say below, there is still enough variability in the interfaces that programs use, that screen readers still have to work around it. It just isn't at as low a level as it used to be, and the information is often easier for the screen reader to find without screen scraping these days.

and there is a lot more uniform structure in Windows programs.  Dialogs are generally dialogs, menus are generally menus, etc.  In a lot of programs, I can
work with these structures without any adaptation of the screen-reader. 
Screen-readers have become much more capable but also, Windows and Windows programs are often structurally much more similar than DOS programs were. 

The trend in software as a whole--be it Windows or commandlines such as shell accounts provide (the commandline side of the *nix platforms), or the *nix windowing environments--is toward library standardization.

Back in the day, everybody rolled their own for everything. Even in early Windows, there were countless ways to do things such as displaying text in windows, drawing things to be shown on the screen, revealing that data (or not) to other programs that might be running, and so on.
Everybody had their own idea about how best to program around limited memory and processing power, what corners could be cut, and how to deal with limited disk space.

Screen readers had to learn to work with, and around, all of that.

As time progressed, and computers and their elements (space, memory, processors) became both more standardized and cheaper, it became viable for standard approaches to things such as displaying windows, graphics, text, and informational presentation in general.
Programming became more and more abstracted from the immediate interface with the user, and both in Windows and *nix environments, standard libraries began doing a lot of the nuts and bolts hardware interface work. That made it easier for screen readers, both Windows and the commandline sorts, to work on a general class of programs, rather than having to be modified to work with individual programs as was much more the case in the past.

That trend started on the commandline side a lot sooner, helped along by open source and the "openness of the basics" ideas it promoted in the industry.

I suspect it had different driving forces on the Windows side--the complexity of Windowing environments making it harder for entry level programmers to get up to speed without standardized interfaces to plug into, being one of them. It's a lot harder to keep re-inventing the wheel, when the wheel needs to look and act like a hundred other wheels running beside it.
And the more complex a system layer becomes, the more security plays a part in standardizing it: in this case, the security of what the operating system lets its third party programs access of its internals in order to get a particular job done.

But this is getting way in the weeds.

Luke







Re: NVDA with Android emulators.

Ravindran V.S.
 

And does NVDA behaves the same in Windows 11 under same conditions in Android Emulator?

Because I heard that Win 11 has some support for Android apps.

Thanks,

V.S.Ravindran.

Excuses leads to failure!””

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ravindran V.S. via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2022 12:18 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA with Android emulators.

 

Hi,

Thank you for this info.

So, is it possible to install Talkback in the Windows PC under BlueStacks?

In that case temporarily disable NVDA and use Talkback to operate the Android app?

Thanks,

Ravi.

 

V.S.Ravindran.

Excuses leads to failure!””

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of VI Techability
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2022 10:33 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA with Android emulators.

 

no you can't access the android emulators with NVDa. you need to install talkback to use the ambulator. you may use nvda ocr to go through the initial screen of bluestak but to use the android os you need to use talkback which is not possible to use until you get any sighted assistance to install it. note:


Re: NVDA with Android emulators.

Ravindran V.S.
 

Hi,

Thank you for this info.

So, is it possible to install Talkback in the Windows PC under BlueStacks?

In that case temporarily disable NVDA and use Talkback to operate the Android app?

Thanks,

Ravi.

 

V.S.Ravindran.

Excuses leads to failure!””

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of VI Techability
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2022 10:33 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA with Android emulators.

 

no you can't access the android emulators with NVDa. you need to install talkback to use the ambulator. you may use nvda ocr to go through the initial screen of bluestak but to use the android os you need to use talkback which is not possible to use until you get any sighted assistance to install it. note:


Re: Article on Screen Reader History (including NVDA)

Luke Davis
 

On Jul 25, Gene wrote:

I remember when, time after time, a new version of Pine came out and users of shell accounts would have to alter the Vocal-ize set file for Pine so the
program would work properly. 
I suspect that was more a deficiency in the way Vocal-Eyes did things, although I never used it so can't be sure.

I know however that all through out the 90s, I used pine via a terminal program, with both the IBM Screen Reader and Tinytalk, and never had to change anything about the screen reader at all to keep using it effectively across multiple pine versions, and even builds for different operating systems.

In general the pine interface (like many of its Ncurses-based brethren) was one of the most unchanging of any full screen programs around for the vast majority of its life span. Up to and including Alpine, its spiritual successor.

And that is not to say anything negative against Vocal-ize, it is to point out how much accessibility has advanced and how much Windows screen-readers now
can work with all sorts of programs without having to be especially caused to work with them.
What I said above not withstanding, I would equate what you describe with having to modify or upgrade JAWS scripts, or NVDA add-ons, to maintain compatibility with changing versions of Windows programs.

Some software always requires the screen reader to have a little help in order to access it, and that help needs to be upgraded from time to time as the software changes.

Personally I wouldn't make any general judgements about accessibility now or then based upon that factor, because in truth it is just as necessary now as it was then, for the subset of cases where it is necessary, whether you call it a script, a set file, or an add-on.

I can use program after program with NVDA or JAWS and those screen-readers aren't scripted or tailored to work specifically with those programs in any way. 
Actually, a lot of times they are. It is just carried internally, without you having to install something like an add-on or script. NVDA, for example, carries something like 100 internal modules dedicated to the support of one specific program each. Not including the more generalized support that underlies it all.
Sometimes they don't have to do much, but fix one little access quirk. Other times they have to do a lot more.
Thunderbird, Zoom, One Password, Windows Mail, all the MS Office applications, Skype, Kindle, iTunes, Windows Explorer, Windows Calculator, are just a few examples of more popular programs that NVDA supports with specific dedicated code.

Because despite what I say below, there is still enough variability in the interfaces that programs use, that screen readers still have to work around it. It just isn't at as low a level as it used to be, and the information is often easier for the screen reader to find without screen scraping these days.

and there is a lot more uniform structure in Windows programs.  Dialogs are generally dialogs, menus are generally menus, etc.  In a lot of programs, I can
work with these structures without any adaptation of the screen-reader. 
Screen-readers have become much more capable but also, Windows and Windows programs are often structurally much more similar than DOS programs were. 
The trend in software as a whole--be it Windows or commandlines such as shell accounts provide (the commandline side of the *nix platforms), or the *nix windowing environments--is toward library standardization.

Back in the day, everybody rolled their own for everything. Even in early Windows, there were countless ways to do things such as displaying text in windows, drawing things to be shown on the screen, revealing that data (or not) to other programs that might be running, and so on.
Everybody had their own idea about how best to program around limited memory and processing power, what corners could be cut, and how to deal with limited disk space.

Screen readers had to learn to work with, and around, all of that.

As time progressed, and computers and their elements (space, memory, processors) became both more standardized and cheaper, it became viable for standard approaches to things such as displaying windows, graphics, text, and informational presentation in general.
Programming became more and more abstracted from the immediate interface with the user, and both in Windows and *nix environments, standard libraries began doing a lot of the nuts and bolts hardware interface work. That made it easier for screen readers, both Windows and the commandline sorts, to work on a general class of programs, rather than having to be modified to work with individual programs as was much more the case in the past.

That trend started on the commandline side a lot sooner, helped along by open source and the "openness of the basics" ideas it promoted in the industry.

I suspect it had different driving forces on the Windows side--the complexity of Windowing environments making it harder for entry level programmers to get up to speed without standardized interfaces to plug into, being one of them. It's a lot harder to keep re-inventing the wheel, when the wheel needs to look and act like a hundred other wheels running beside it.
And the more complex a system layer becomes, the more security plays a part in standardizing it: in this case, the security of what the operating system lets its third party programs access of its internals in order to get a particular job done.

But this is getting way in the weeds.

Luke


Re: NVDA with Android emulators.

VI Techability
 

no you can't access the android emulators with NVDa. you need to install talkback to use the ambulator. you may use nvda ocr to go through the initial screen of bluestak but to use the android os you need to use talkback which is not possible to use until you get any sighted assistance to install it. note:


Re: Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

Sharni-Lee Ward
 

I restarted and they didn't vanish this time! Which is nice, but I hope they continue to stick around!


I also got the Canadian English voices and they sound really nice and friendly! The Irish guy is lonely but I guess not enough people ask for Irish accents. xD

On 27/07/2022 3:57 am, Shawn via groups.io wrote:

Well if they do vanish, it's probably time to call Microsoft, or try to Google it and plow through a bunch of Microsoft forum questions from people who hopefully have had the same problem. That may not be for everybody, it tries the patience. If you have Be My Eyes on your phone you can get Microsoft support, but if you can't get Quick Assist to work or install correctly, which will probably be the case, it's not as helpful.

Shawn Klein

On 7/26/2022 12:50 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:

That's what I've done, and it's worked, but of the three voices I've added I only see the Japanese ones, which I added first, and I don't know if they'll stay loaded, since they vanished after the previous restart.

On 27/07/2022 3:45 am, Shawn via groups.io wrote:

So here's how I do it. I open up narrator settings with control+shift+n. Then I shift tab and it says vision grouping one of 3. Arrow down until it says narrator. Then tab a bunch of times until you hear add more voices. Then tab past everything until it says manage voices grouping. Add voices button. Press enter and find the language you want and add it. Try it that way.

Shawn Klein

On 7/26/2022 12:38 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:

Nope, not there either, and I checked in the Ease of Access settings as well. The packages have gone.

On 27/07/2022 3:36 am, Gene wrote:
Check the SAPI 5 voices.  There are SAPI 5 versions of One Core Voices.  Perhaps that is where the voices installed.

Gene

On 7/26/2022 12:25 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:

So I went and installed the packages, but can't see them in NVDA's voice dropdown for 1Core voices. I tried restarting the computer, and it did some updates that took a while, and I thought when it was done that I could access the voices then. The system's finished that process, and nope, the voices I installed still don't show up in NVDA! What am I missing?

On 26/07/2022 9:49 pm, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:

Okay, I will definitely look into that. But I don't think I can set up things in that synth so I can get two languages simultaneously either. I need to know what I'm doing as I learn.

On 26/07/2022 8:52 pm, Josh Kennedy wrote:
one core voices do have japanese. go into settings, windows+i. accessibility in windows11, or ease of access in windows10. down to narrator, tab to add voices, tab to add more voices under language packs, go select japanese and it will be downloaded and installed. restart NVDA and then you get one core japanese voices. 


Re: Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

Shawn
 

Well if they do vanish, it's probably time to call Microsoft, or try to Google it and plow through a bunch of Microsoft forum questions from people who hopefully have had the same problem. That may not be for everybody, it tries the patience. If you have Be My Eyes on your phone you can get Microsoft support, but if you can't get Quick Assist to work or install correctly, which will probably be the case, it's not as helpful.

Shawn Klein

On 7/26/2022 12:50 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:

That's what I've done, and it's worked, but of the three voices I've added I only see the Japanese ones, which I added first, and I don't know if they'll stay loaded, since they vanished after the previous restart.

On 27/07/2022 3:45 am, Shawn via groups.io wrote:

So here's how I do it. I open up narrator settings with control+shift+n. Then I shift tab and it says vision grouping one of 3. Arrow down until it says narrator. Then tab a bunch of times until you hear add more voices. Then tab past everything until it says manage voices grouping. Add voices button. Press enter and find the language you want and add it. Try it that way.

Shawn Klein

On 7/26/2022 12:38 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:

Nope, not there either, and I checked in the Ease of Access settings as well. The packages have gone.

On 27/07/2022 3:36 am, Gene wrote:
Check the SAPI 5 voices.  There are SAPI 5 versions of One Core Voices.  Perhaps that is where the voices installed.

Gene

On 7/26/2022 12:25 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:

So I went and installed the packages, but can't see them in NVDA's voice dropdown for 1Core voices. I tried restarting the computer, and it did some updates that took a while, and I thought when it was done that I could access the voices then. The system's finished that process, and nope, the voices I installed still don't show up in NVDA! What am I missing?

On 26/07/2022 9:49 pm, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:

Okay, I will definitely look into that. But I don't think I can set up things in that synth so I can get two languages simultaneously either. I need to know what I'm doing as I learn.

On 26/07/2022 8:52 pm, Josh Kennedy wrote:
one core voices do have japanese. go into settings, windows+i. accessibility in windows11, or ease of access in windows10. down to narrator, tab to add voices, tab to add more voices under language packs, go select japanese and it will be downloaded and installed. restart NVDA and then you get one core japanese voices. 


Re: Reading Japanese with NVDA 2022.2

Gene
 

You have no basis to assume that the SAPI 5 version can't have its inflection adjusted in NVDA or in some other way. 

Others may know if it can be or you can try the demo but you have no basis to assume it can't be.

Gene

On 7/26/2022 12:43 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:

No, but for learning, that is tolerable, and they are free. It's not like Eloquence, which I'd have to pay for in either form. But Eloquence as an NVDA Addon direct can at least have its inflection adjusted. No wonder it sounds so flat on some peoples' YouTube streams, if they're running it through Sapi...

On 27/07/2022 3:31 am, Shawn via groups.io wrote:

You can't adjust inflection with one core voices either.

Shawn Klein

On 7/26/2022 12:20 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:

If I use Sapi5, doesn't that mean I can't adjust inflection? I don't like that idea very much...

On 27/07/2022 1:40 am, Gene wrote:
I would suggest getting the SAPI5 Eloquence version, not the add-on.  You can use the SAPI5 version with any screen-reader that supports SAPI5 and you  don't have to worry about which version of NVDA you use it with.  NVDA supports SAPI5 regardless of version.

You can try a demo to see if it does what you want.  If no one gives information soon about where to get a demo, I'll check. 

Gene

On 7/26/2022 10:33 AM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:

Actually, while I'm thinking about it, how much is the Eloquence addon? And is it a one-time payment? I know Jaws is subscription-based now (at least, I think that's what the deal is, and last I heard you had to pay for new updates, which I always thought was a d*ck move), but is the Eloquence addon by itself a one-time payment? If so, I may consider investing in it for circumstances such as this.

On 25/07/2022 7:10 am, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:
Since Eloquence is paid and I don't like it anyways, that's not an option for me. I dunno how, if at all, those packs would help, and I don't want to change synths. Anything without inflection settings (including most paid synths) sounds woeful to my discerning ears.

On 25/07/2022 6:30 am, Shawn via groups.io wrote:
The question is did you switch ESpeak's language to Japanese. With some synths, they just won't work with Japanese or some other foreign alphabets at all unless you add language packs in Windows. I just opened a Japanese Wikipedia page with the following results. Japanese Eloquence read it in Japanese. ESpeak Japanese read Japanese letter this, Chinese letter that. You may want to check out this page about installing language packs in Windows, or find a synth that will work without them.

https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsupport.microsoft.com%2Fen-us%2Fwindows%2Flanguage-packs-for-windows-a5094319-a92d-18de-5b53-1cfc697cfca8&amp;data=05%7C01%7C%7Ce594a98c5f5649b9b50908da6db8ff1a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637942938588515646%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&amp;sdata=wI22F3s6GmKeUfXsNNEB9S%2FA9AB83M%2BZLcgwV3FZtuQ%3D&amp;reserved=0

Shawn Klein

On 7/24/2022 12:58 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:
The New Releases page said that Japanese was added to Espeak as well as the packaged Braille Tables. I want to learn Japanese (I started learning in school, then left school, and that was a good fifteen years ago now), and just found out the browser version of Duolingo is accessible with NVDA.


However, I've checked with a couple things (I'm a part of a number of anime fandoms), and NVDA doesn't switch to Japanese when reading passages, instead continuing to say "Japanese-letter" several times, or if I'm scrolling over it, "Japanese-letter" plus several numbers that I suppose are it's unicode designation? But anyways, it is not reflecting the addition of the language bank in Espeak NG. And I know the ProTalker addon has not been compatible for years, though even if it were, there were some weird pronunciation issues with even that.


Is there something I am missing here?


















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