Date   

Re: NVDA Dictionary Files

Gene
 

That's good.  Thanks.

Gene

On 7/31/2022 10:50 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Sun, Jul 31, 2022 at 10:06 AM, Gene wrote:
I backed up some dictionaries from old versions but it appears that if I want to use them in new versions, I likely won't be able to.
-
Just run them through a global find and replace using TAB as the replacement for comma.  While that may screw up a comment or two that has no effect on dictionary processing and should fix the lines that were once comma separated.

Just based on memory the values used for the case sensitivity indicator and the type have never varied from what they are now, nor would they have any need to have done so.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard



Re: NVDA Dictionary Files

 

On Sun, Jul 31, 2022 at 10:06 AM, Gene wrote:
I backed up some dictionaries from old versions but it appears that if I want to use them in new versions, I likely won't be able to.
-
Just run them through a global find and replace using TAB as the replacement for comma.  While that may screw up a comment or two that has no effect on dictionary processing and should fix the lines that were once comma separated.

Just based on memory the values used for the case sensitivity indicator and the type have never varied from what they are now, nor would they have any need to have done so.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard


Re: NVDA Dictionary Files

 

Giles,

Thanks very much.  Your answer reminded me that, at some point, I know I've asked about this before and it may very well have been you that answered.  
Here are two entries from my current default dictionary:
--
unchecky un-checky 0 2
#Mathematical Prime when there is a single letter with an apostrophe following
(\b[a-zA-Z])' \1 prime 0 1
--
The first is a simple whole-word replacement, with no associated comment, and the individual columns are in the following order, and are TAB separated:
Pattern  Replacement String  Case-Sensitivity-Indicator  Type

Case-Sensitivity-Indicator is 0 when case sensitivity is off and 1 when it's on.
Type is:   0 - Anywhere , 1 - Regular Expression, 2 - Whole Word

The second is a regular expression match where I also have a comment, and as you noted when a comment is present it is placed above the line with the above noted columns and prefixed with a pound sign/number sign/hash.

I have never used an Anywhere type match because it is so fraught, so I had to add one just to make sure that the type indicator would, indeed, be zero for this type of match.

This makes it very easy to create specific "testing variants" of a dictionary, which is what I have need to do on occasion.  Given the way NVDA processes the dictionary I sometimes need to strip out anything but what I'm trying to test to determine whether there are what I'll call "substitution of substitution" situations going on, since dictionary processing does not stop upon first match, but continues after the substitution has been done on that match for the remaining dictionary entries.  This can lead to some very interesting results, and I know that Quentin very kindly illustrated this, vividly, some time back when I was asking about dictionary processing.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard


Re: NVDA Dictionary Files

Gene
 

the difference in how entries are separated may well mean that backed up dictionaries from earlier versions of NVDA won't work if you place them in new versions. 

I backed up some dictionaries from old versions but it appears that if I want to use them in new versions, I likely won't be able to.

Gene

On 7/31/2022 8:57 AM, Giles Turnbull wrote:

yes, it is possible to edit the dictionary files manually. They are located in AppData/Roaming/NVDA/speechDicts. The default dictionary is default.dic and any voice dictionaries you might have are in folders under the name of the synth.

One issue I found tricky to figure out was the flags to indicate options like for Type: anywhere or whole word only or regular expression, and for case sensitive or not. You can figure this out by looking at a dictionary entry and seeing how it is in the relevant dictionary file. Then change an option such as Type Anywhere and change it to whole word Only, then look at how the dictionary file has changed. I can't remember off the top of my head, but I think the numbers range from 0 to 2 for the Type option.

The last entry I added to my default dictionary appears like this in my default.dic file:

#Welsh town
Hirwaun    Heerwine    1    0

The #Welsh Town is the optional comment you can enter in the dictionary manager.
Then comes the text followed by the way you want it pronounced. Then come the flags for Type and Case Sensitive.

One thing that is interesting and has changed since the last time I edited a dictionary file manually, is that the entries are not comma-separated anymore ... they are separated by four spaces.

Hope this helps :)

Giles


Re: NVDA Dictionary Files

Giles Turnbull
 

yes, it is possible to edit the dictionary files manually. They are located in AppData/Roaming/NVDA/speechDicts. The default dictionary is default.dic and any voice dictionaries you might have are in folders under the name of the synth.

One issue I found tricky to figure out was the flags to indicate options like for Type: anywhere or whole word only or regular expression, and for case sensitive or not. You can figure this out by looking at a dictionary entry and seeing how it is in the relevant dictionary file. Then change an option such as Type Anywhere and change it to whole word Only, then look at how the dictionary file has changed. I can't remember off the top of my head, but I think the numbers range from 0 to 2 for the Type option.

The last entry I added to my default dictionary appears like this in my default.dic file:

#Welsh town
Hirwaun    Heerwine    1    0

The #Welsh Town is the optional comment you can enter in the dictionary manager.
Then comes the text followed by the way you want it pronounced. Then come the flags for Type and Case Sensitive.

One thing that is interesting and has changed since the last time I edited a dictionary file manually, is that the entries are not comma-separated anymore ... they are separated by four spaces.

Hope this helps :)

Giles


Re: object out of screen - what does it mean?

Alexandre Alves Toco
 

Hello Brian!

It happens for me in a application called samsung update.


Em 31/07/2022 04:28, Brian's Mail list account via groups.io escreveu:

Funny you should mention this. Is this  on web sites? I've seen it several times, but its hard to duplicate it, so I wondered if it might be a browser issue. It was in Firefox for me, but its hard to  debug something that happens randomly.
Brian


Re: object out of screen - what does it mean?

Cyrille
 

Hello

It means that the object, e.g. the button, is not in the limits of the screen.
This may happen for example on the web if you tab to a button and then scroll with the wheel of the mouse. The button has still the focus but it is not visible on the screen anymore.
If an object is out of screen, some action may fail, e.g. route the mouse pointer to the object and try to clic it will fail because the mouse cannot go outside of the limits of the screen.
In Firefox, I think that activating an object with enter triggers a mouse movement in some cases, what may be the reason why it fails for an off-screen object.

For the applications, I think that some objects may be hidden or shown according to the state of the application, e.g. object of the selected tab shown and object of the other tabs hidden. In this case, navigating with object navigation cursor allow you to reach hidden objects, reported as off-screen.

Cheers,

Cyrille


Re: When composing email in gmail web how to delete a receiver?

Gene
 

I'm not sure why.  Make sure that, depending on what your screen-reader calls it, you are in forms mode or browse mode is off.

Gene

On 7/31/2022 6:27 AM, William wrote:

Gene,

Thank you very much.

It was strange that in one of the profile of my chrome browser, I was able to press left arrow to review selected receiver.

But in another profile, pressing left arrow, nvda focused onto the link to select receiver from contact list.

 


Gene 於 31/7/2022 18:20 寫道:
When you are in the combo box where you up and down arrow to find and add more recipients, instead of moving up and down, move to the left or right.  You will move through the addresses you have added.  If you haven't moved yet, move left to move through all addresses.  Once you are on an address, to remove it, press the delete key.

Gene

On 7/31/2022 12:26 AM, William wrote:
Hello,

When I am composing a new email in gmail web, I add sender by the following ways:

1. after the compose new window is open, nvda focus is on the search field to enter receiver email

2. I enter keywords of the receiver email or name, then I press up or down arrow to look at the suggestion available

3. I press enter to select that particular email as the receiver of the email

4. after pressing enter, nvda will be focused on the empty search field when I can repeat step 2 and 3 to enter extra receivers


After doing the above steps, say I have selected 3 receivers, and later I found that I have to delete some of the receiver email address from the current email.



Can any one instruct me how can I use nvda to remove some of the receivers?

Thank you.










Re: When composing email in gmail web how to delete a receiver?

William
 

Gene,

Thank you very much.

It was strange that in one of the profile of my chrome browser, I was able to press left arrow to review selected receiver.

But in another profile, pressing left arrow, nvda focused onto the link to select receiver from contact list.

 


Gene 於 31/7/2022 18:20 寫道:

When you are in the combo box where you up and down arrow to find and add more recipients, instead of moving up and down, move to the left or right.  You will move through the addresses you have added.  If you haven't moved yet, move left to move through all addresses.  Once you are on an address, to remove it, press the delete key.

Gene

On 7/31/2022 12:26 AM, William wrote:
Hello,

When I am composing a new email in gmail web, I add sender by the following ways:

1. after the compose new window is open, nvda focus is on the search field to enter receiver email

2. I enter keywords of the receiver email or name, then I press up or down arrow to look at the suggestion available

3. I press enter to select that particular email as the receiver of the email

4. after pressing enter, nvda will be focused on the empty search field when I can repeat step 2 and 3 to enter extra receivers


After doing the above steps, say I have selected 3 receivers, and later I found that I have to delete some of the receiver email address from the current email.



Can any one instruct me how can I use nvda to remove some of the receivers?

Thank you.









Re: When composing email in gmail web how to delete a receiver?

Gene
 

When you are in the combo box where you up and down arrow to find and add more recipients, instead of moving up and down, move to the left or right.  You will move through the addresses you have added.  If you haven't moved yet, move left to move through all addresses.  Once you are on an address, to remove it, press the delete key.

Gene

On 7/31/2022 12:26 AM, William wrote:

Hello,

When I am composing a new email in gmail web, I add sender by the following ways:

1. after the compose new window is open, nvda focus is on the search field to enter receiver email

2. I enter keywords of the receiver email or name, then I press up or down arrow to look at the suggestion available

3. I press enter to select that particular email as the receiver of the email

4. after pressing enter, nvda will be focused on the empty search field when I can repeat step 2 and 3 to enter extra receivers


After doing the above steps, say I have selected 3 receivers, and later I found that I have to delete some of the receiver email address from the current email.



Can any one instruct me how can I use nvda to remove some of the receivers?

Thank you.









Re: object out of screen - what does it mean?

Brian's Mail list account
 

Funny you should mention this. Is this on web sites? I've seen it several times, but its hard to duplicate it, so I wondered if it might be a browser issue. It was in Firefox for me, but its hard to debug something that happens randomly.
Brian

--
bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media)
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alexandre Alves Toco" <alexandretoco@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2022 2:09 PM
Subject: [nvda] object out of screen - what does it mean?


Hi friends!

In sansung update, I used object navigation and nvda said: "ok button out of screen".

I tried to click it using nvda. But as soon as I do so, the focus goes to desktop.

I am curious to understand hwat is an object out of screen.

I believe this ok button should be visible for the sighted users.






Re: Audible app for pc

Monte Single
 

Hi  Stephen,

 

As this is not a nvda issue, write me of list at;

 

mrsingle@... and I may be able to help you.

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Stephen
Sent: July 30, 2022 10:45 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Audible app for pc

 

so I have to be online in order to listen to audible books?

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Guy Schlosser <guyster@...>

Sent: 7/30/2022 6:14:25 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Audible app for pc


Hey there Ame! Audible is actually discontinuing support for that app. You’re better off using audible.com, and using their cloud player. That is much more accessible through a browser like Chrome. 



On Jul 29, 2022, at 1:16 PM, Ame <abk043@...> wrote:



Hi all!

 

I’m toying with the idea of an Audible subscription and so I downloaded the Audible app from the Microsoft Store.  Sadly, it’s not very accessible unless I’m doing something wrong.  Is there an add on that’ll help?  Or, maybe there are tips and tricks I don’t know about?  Thanks in advance for any help you can give me.

.


When composing email in gmail web how to delete a receiver?

William
 

Hello,

When I am composing a new email in gmail web, I add sender by the following ways:

1. after the compose new window is open, nvda focus is on the search field to enter receiver email

2. I enter keywords of the receiver email or name, then I press up or down arrow to look at the suggestion available

3. I press enter to select that particular email as the receiver of the email

4. after pressing enter, nvda will be focused on the empty search field when I can repeat step 2 and 3 to enter extra receivers


After doing the above steps, say I have selected 3 receivers, and later I found that I have to delete some of the receiver email address from the current email.



Can any one instruct me how can I use nvda to remove some of the receivers?

Thank you.


Re: Audible app for pc

Stephen
 

so I have to be online in order to listen to audible books?
 
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Guy Schlosser <guyster@...>
Sent: 7/30/2022 6:14:25 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Audible app for pc

Hey there Ame! Audible is actually discontinuing support for that app. You’re better off using audible.com, and using their cloud player. That is much more accessible through a browser like Chrome. 

JAWS Certified, 2021, https://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Certification

On Jul 29, 2022, at 1:16 PM, Ame <abk043@...> wrote:



Hi all!

 

I’m toying with the idea of an Audible subscription and so I downloaded the Audible app from the Microsoft Store.  Sadly, it’s not very accessible unless I’m doing something wrong.  Is there an add on that’ll help?  Or, maybe there are tips and tricks I don’t know about?  Thanks in advance for any help you can give me.

.


Re: Article on Screen Reader History (including NVDA)

Gene
 

However, if I understand what the person is doing, he is not using the screen-reader as intended.  that has not been spoken of by anyone but me.  If I misunderstand what is being done, I'd like to know. 

My understanding is that the person is reading the text of an article by moving a physical mouse down the screen line by line and causing the screen-reader to speak the text in that manner.  Not only is that not the intended use of screen-readers, but it isn't the intended use for sighted people. 

If you use something in a way not intended, you may have problems. 

Gene

On 7/30/2022 4:30 PM, Thomas N. Chan wrote:

Exactly my point.
Most of the time screen reader users are still focused on how to let sighted folks see what we are doing.
but we don't see how sighted folks see what they are doing. 
For example, if they put the mouse pointer on top of an icon, it will popup a box aka tooltip, does the screen reader read that popup?
we are not focus on, how we get onto the icon and tell them to click on that.
We want to focus on where they click on that icon and find out what icon is that. we need to figure out what icon, how to access that icon. then tell them, this is what they did wrong, they should click on, the other icon instead.


I don't need to tell  them, I move my focus to the right icon and they should do that. 
how in the first place, how do we know, they move focus the right icon? how do we know that, after they did it wrong or right?

Regards,
Thomas N. Chan


On Sat, Jul 30, 2022 at 11:13 PM Russell James <4rjames@...> wrote:
Sorry for the delay in my response

Fortunately, Thomas seems to understand the value for some users to use what was called mouse tracking!

I have called this explore by mouse but it is essentially leveraging the mouse tracking and reading content with the physical mouse.

Similar to explore by touch on Android devices...

Which was something I learned from window-Eyes and have never stopped doing.
I have never used JAWS so have nothing to add there...

Unfortunately, this access method has always had multiple issues with NVDA.
Especially when the content is located near an image on the right or if the content includes hyperlinks.
Of course, if you don't know there is text after a hyperlink you would not know it was not being spoken...
Likewise with the text to the left of an image on a web page...

As with many things, screen reader users don't all use their tool the same way...

Russ

On Fri, Jul 29, 2022 at 9:12 AM Josh Kennedy <joshknnd1982@...> wrote:
in jaws it is called mouse echo, insert+space, letter e as in echo. then use the following commands  and also both jaws and NVDA offer visual highlighting so sighted people can follow along with what you are doing. in jaws it is in settings center I think in visual highlighting. 
The following commands are available in the Mouse Echo layer.
Toggle mouse echo On/Off = O.
Set mouse echo to character = C.
Set mouse echo to word = W.
Set mouse echo to line = L.
Set mouse echo to paragraph = P.




Re: Article on Screen Reader History (including NVDA)

Thomas N. Chan
 

Exactly my point.
Most of the time screen reader users are still focused on how to let sighted folks see what we are doing.
but we don't see how sighted folks see what they are doing. 
For example, if they put the mouse pointer on top of an icon, it will popup a box aka tooltip, does the screen reader read that popup?
we are not focus on, how we get onto the icon and tell them to click on that.
We want to focus on where they click on that icon and find out what icon is that. we need to figure out what icon, how to access that icon. then tell them, this is what they did wrong, they should click on, the other icon instead.


I don't need to tell  them, I move my focus to the right icon and they should do that. 
how in the first place, how do we know, they move focus the right icon? how do we know that, after they did it wrong or right?

Regards,
Thomas N. Chan


On Sat, Jul 30, 2022 at 11:13 PM Russell James <4rjames@...> wrote:
Sorry for the delay in my response

Fortunately, Thomas seems to understand the value for some users to use what was called mouse tracking!

I have called this explore by mouse but it is essentially leveraging the mouse tracking and reading content with the physical mouse.

Similar to explore by touch on Android devices...

Which was something I learned from window-Eyes and have never stopped doing.
I have never used JAWS so have nothing to add there...

Unfortunately, this access method has always had multiple issues with NVDA.
Especially when the content is located near an image on the right or if the content includes hyperlinks.
Of course, if you don't know there is text after a hyperlink you would not know it was not being spoken...
Likewise with the text to the left of an image on a web page...

As with many things, screen reader users don't all use their tool the same way...

Russ

On Fri, Jul 29, 2022 at 9:12 AM Josh Kennedy <joshknnd1982@...> wrote:
in jaws it is called mouse echo, insert+space, letter e as in echo. then use the following commands  and also both jaws and NVDA offer visual highlighting so sighted people can follow along with what you are doing. in jaws it is in settings center I think in visual highlighting. 
The following commands are available in the Mouse Echo layer.
Toggle mouse echo On/Off = O.
Set mouse echo to character = C.
Set mouse echo to word = W.
Set mouse echo to line = L.
Set mouse echo to paragraph = P.



NVDA Dictionary Files

 

. . . can they be backed up and can they be edited manually to allow for the rearrangement of the order of entries?

Over time I have put quite a few regex entries into my default dictionary as various questions have come up.  Since NVDA's dictionary processor does not stop processing once the first dictionary match is made, but does the replacement then chugs merrily along the rest of the dictionary entries, it is entirely possible for a later dictionary entry to interfere with the results of an earlier substitution in ways one might not initially expect.

I would love to be able to strip my dictionary down to a single entry for testing purposes, but not lose all the other stuff I have.  If these are stored in a text-based format, it should be simple to copy them and simple to edit whether it's to rearrange order, strip out entries, etc.

Since the dictionary manager does not have the ability to rearrange order, nor to turn specific items on/off for processing, I'd like to be able to do that myself when the occasion requires.  This is not something the average user would likely be doing often, but I have to believe that there are a number of heavy-duty NVDA testers and NVDA developers (whether core code or add-ons) that read here who have had the same need.

If a manual method exists to back up the dictionary files, and to manually edit these so that large numbers of items can be deleted or moved in one fell swoop, please share.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard


Re: Article on Screen Reader History (including NVDA)

Russell James
 

Sorry for the delay in my response

Fortunately, Thomas seems to understand the value for some users to use what was called mouse tracking!

I have called this explore by mouse but it is essentially leveraging the mouse tracking and reading content with the physical mouse.

Similar to explore by touch on Android devices...

Which was something I learned from window-Eyes and have never stopped doing.
I have never used JAWS so have nothing to add there...

Unfortunately, this access method has always had multiple issues with NVDA.
Especially when the content is located near an image on the right or if the content includes hyperlinks.
Of course, if you don't know there is text after a hyperlink you would not know it was not being spoken...
Likewise with the text to the left of an image on a web page...

As with many things, screen reader users don't all use their tool the same way...

Russ


On Fri, Jul 29, 2022 at 9:12 AM Josh Kennedy <joshknnd1982@...> wrote:
in jaws it is called mouse echo, insert+space, letter e as in echo. then use the following commands  and also both jaws and NVDA offer visual highlighting so sighted people can follow along with what you are doing. in jaws it is in settings center I think in visual highlighting. 
The following commands are available in the Mouse Echo layer.
Toggle mouse echo On/Off = O.
Set mouse echo to character = C.
Set mouse echo to word = W.
Set mouse echo to line = L.
Set mouse echo to paragraph = P.



Re: NVDA and Hashtags

 

On Sat, Jul 30, 2022 at 03:35 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
Of course I have changed the number announcement to hash, since its always been known as that here in the UK, and other UK screenreaders seem to do the same as well.
Its not really pound £ is pound but # is hash.
-
Well, you're talking about something entirely different, which is what a given language locality calls individual symbols.  I always knew the Pound Sterling sign was said as pound(s) when referring to money, but I didn't know that the number sign (US) was referred to as hash.  But even hash is about the symbol, while hashtag is about the symbol and what follows it.

In any case, at this point those who may want hashtags announced as hashtags have a regex to do it and step by step instructions for adding same to the dictionary.  It's an option one can use, or not.

But as dictionaries (as in the real ones with definitions of words) change as the language does, it seems to me that it makes sense for synths to try to keep up with "the prevailing winds" of changes that appear to have become permanent, regardless of what those are.  Too often they don't.

But when it comes to symbol reading, I'll take "Bang" over "exclamation point," and "tick," over "single quote," just for efficiency's sake. When going character by character through content I prefer the shortest comprehensible identifier for a character, as the process is already tedious enough as is.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard


object out of screen - what does it mean?

Alexandre Alves Toco
 

Hi friends!

In sansung update, I used object navigation and nvda said: "ok button out of screen".

I tried to click it using nvda. But as soon as I do so, the focus goes to desktop.

I am curious to understand hwat is an object out of screen.

I believe this ok button should be visible for the sighted users.

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