Date   

Re: NVDA and windows 11

David Goldfield
 

My laptop initially shipped with Windows 10 Pro. I think I used it for a week or two and then decided to upgrade to Windows 11. I didn’t take notes on the process but I remember the upgrade being extremely uneventful. As Brian has correctly stated there will be periods of silence but during much of the time between screen readers I would just press control-Windows-enter to fire up Narrator which could then give me status updates on where I was during the update process.

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Quentin Christensen
Sent: Thursday, August 4, 2022 7:53 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and windows 11

 

All true Brian, I must admit I was mostly thinking of those who either find the process of updating intimidating or just don't want to spend the time doing it if they don't have to.  And I can appreciate that, it does take a good amount of time.  I haven't done the upgrade on an existing machine to know how smoothly it runs.  Actually what I can say is with so much stuff stored on the cloud - OneDrive, Google Drive, etc, and passwords stored on the cloud - getting setup on a new machine is actually less painful these days than it used to be.  It still took say half a day of doing little else, a couple of days of working, but regularly having to stop and install a program I'd forgotten about, or retrieve something from a backup or off the old machine I'd forgotten about,  and then every now and then now I have to chase something.  But otherwise, yes, everything is running smoothly.

 

I would also say, since Windows 11 has been out for awhile now and is quite stable and accessible, if I had a Windows 10 machine which could take it, I'd rather upgrade now than in three years time - as you say, everyone else has been doing it recently, so whatever problem you run into, someone has probably worked out how to get around it recently enough to remember and be able to recount it to you - and if you do it now, you'll just have what you have now to move - in three years time, you'll have all that AND everything from that three years :)  And you'll be three years older!

 

On Fri, Aug 5, 2022 at 9:10 AM Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

On Thu, Aug 4, 2022 at 06:45 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:

If you're unsure about upgrading and don't need new hardware, then Windows 10 will continue to be supported until 2025, so you don't need to make a decision yet. 

-
While what you say is entirely true and correct, there are other factors to consider.  We're now past the 6 months after initial release and all indications, including yours, are that Windows 11 is quite stable and has not proven to be any more problematic than Windows 10 or 8.1.

One thing that constantly gets overlooked, and that I've had to deal with on these groups and in real life, is that there is a period where "everyone who's updates is in information sharing mode, and active information sharing," and this tends to be in the first year after a major release.  Answers tend to come fast and furious, to everyone's benefit.  After that period most who've upgraded or gotten a new machine with Windows 11 will be in coast mode, often not remembering how they accomplished something or that they even did something to make changes at all.

Then you also get into the fact that information that was 100% accurate when written can and does go stale fairly quickly, and then you have to plow through lots of information with an eye on when it was written, and whether it's still accurate multiple months later.  Windows As A Service, even though Feature Updates have now been slowed to once a year, is still a relatively rapidly changing environment.

Take the above into consideration if you are thinking about upgrading to Windows 11 or buying a new computer with Windows 11 on it.  We're no longer at the "bleeding edge" period and there are some advantages to being in the same boat with a lot of others.  Later on, you're more in your own rowboat rather than on a ship with many, many others.

By the way, due to my "hardware situation" I can't upgrade, and as a support tech I'm already running into certain situations where my knowledge of Windows 11 is behind what's current as a result.  And given the price of new computers with the worldwide chip shortage, I'm in no hurry to purchase a new computer.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard


 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 


Re: NVDA and windows 11

Quentin Christensen
 

All true Brian, I must admit I was mostly thinking of those who either find the process of updating intimidating or just don't want to spend the time doing it if they don't have to.  And I can appreciate that, it does take a good amount of time.  I haven't done the upgrade on an existing machine to know how smoothly it runs.  Actually what I can say is with so much stuff stored on the cloud - OneDrive, Google Drive, etc, and passwords stored on the cloud - getting setup on a new machine is actually less painful these days than it used to be.  It still took say half a day of doing little else, a couple of days of working, but regularly having to stop and install a program I'd forgotten about, or retrieve something from a backup or off the old machine I'd forgotten about,  and then every now and then now I have to chase something.  But otherwise, yes, everything is running smoothly.

I would also say, since Windows 11 has been out for awhile now and is quite stable and accessible, if I had a Windows 10 machine which could take it, I'd rather upgrade now than in three years time - as you say, everyone else has been doing it recently, so whatever problem you run into, someone has probably worked out how to get around it recently enough to remember and be able to recount it to you - and if you do it now, you'll just have what you have now to move - in three years time, you'll have all that AND everything from that three years :)  And you'll be three years older!

On Fri, Aug 5, 2022 at 9:10 AM Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 4, 2022 at 06:45 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
If you're unsure about upgrading and don't need new hardware, then Windows 10 will continue to be supported until 2025, so you don't need to make a decision yet. 
-
While what you say is entirely true and correct, there are other factors to consider.  We're now past the 6 months after initial release and all indications, including yours, are that Windows 11 is quite stable and has not proven to be any more problematic than Windows 10 or 8.1.

One thing that constantly gets overlooked, and that I've had to deal with on these groups and in real life, is that there is a period where "everyone who's updates is in information sharing mode, and active information sharing," and this tends to be in the first year after a major release.  Answers tend to come fast and furious, to everyone's benefit.  After that period most who've upgraded or gotten a new machine with Windows 11 will be in coast mode, often not remembering how they accomplished something or that they even did something to make changes at all.

Then you also get into the fact that information that was 100% accurate when written can and does go stale fairly quickly, and then you have to plow through lots of information with an eye on when it was written, and whether it's still accurate multiple months later.  Windows As A Service, even though Feature Updates have now been slowed to once a year, is still a relatively rapidly changing environment.

Take the above into consideration if you are thinking about upgrading to Windows 11 or buying a new computer with Windows 11 on it.  We're no longer at the "bleeding edge" period and there are some advantages to being in the same boat with a lot of others.  Later on, you're more in your own rowboat rather than on a ship with many, many others.

By the way, due to my "hardware situation" I can't upgrade, and as a support tech I'm already running into certain situations where my knowledge of Windows 11 is behind what's current as a result.  And given the price of new computers with the worldwide chip shortage, I'm in no hurry to purchase a new computer.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


activating the Sally Ivoina voice from harpo software

Rayette Rucker
 

How do i activate the Sally Ivona voice from harpo software? I’ve already  purchased a lisense for the voice.

Ray


locked Re: No Beeps in Explorer Any More?

Gene
 

Perhaps, since you have been the only person to put forward your interpretation, it may mean that your understanding is not generally shared, which may mean that your criticism is generally not valid.  I can interpret all sorts of things in all sorts of ways.  The law uses, constantly, the reasonable person standard, what would a resonable person do in such a circumstance, how would a reasonable person understand something. 

Gene

On 8/4/2022 5:32 PM, Steve Matzura wrote:

You missed my point, which was to say that it's not our business to openly wonder why people do the things they do the way they do them. In my opinion, that's just unnecessary and, quite frankly, harsh criticism folks don't need. Ask all you like about why others do things differently than you do; using phrases like "I wonder why" can be easily misinterpreted to mean "How silly you are to do things that way, when my way is so superior--I don't need all that other nonsense." Suggesting better methods is always good; putting someone down for failing to acknowledge the superiority of your methods or for using others that you yourself might not like or use, that's not cool.


On 8/4/2022 12:37 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Thu, Aug 4, 2022 at 12:33 PM, Steve Matzura wrote:
And I wonder at times why you wonder at times about the why's and wherefores of how others work.
-
Take your own advice.  All of us have the right to wonder about how other people handle things, and to express our opinions about same.  It's no skin off your nose.

In addition, and this is not a case like this, very often "how someone works" reveals an ignorance about other options.  I can't count the number of times someone's said that they do something one way, which is without question a more difficult way, and were advised by others that a number of other options exist.

I have tired of people who seem to thing that being challenged or questioned on a group like this one is inappropriate.  It isn't.  You, and anyone else, is free to take or reject any advice offered.

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard



Re: Upgrading Windows with NVDA

 

On Thu, Aug 4, 2022 at 06:43 PM, Steve Matzura wrote:
Every system on which I have worked since 11 came on the scene has offered it in a standard update, sometimes without the poor unsuspecting user even knowing they got it.
-
Same here, not too terribly long after the initial release date.  The only thing I'll argue is that anyone should have been, or be, a "poor unsuspecting user" since this update is clearly identified, and optional, much like normal Feature Updates are now in Windows 10 so long as the version you're using is in support.  If you don't activate that "Download and install" link it's not going to happen, and the what that would be downloaded and installed is very clearly identified.  Any time someone encounters a "Download and install" link they need to have reviewed "the what" before choosing to activate it.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard


locked Re: No Beeps in Explorer Any More?

 

On Thu, Aug 4, 2022 at 06:43 PM, Steve Matzura wrote:
using phrases like "I wonder why" can be easily misinterpreted to mean "How silly you are to do things that way, when my way is so superior--I don't need all that other nonsense."
-
Responding to this separately:  That "misinterpretation" is strictly on the part of the person reading, "I wonder why," as anything beyond, "I wonder why."

The spin you have put on it in your example is unjustified, and putting words into the mouth of an individual who uses the entirely common conversational device, "I wonder why."  THAT is not cool.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard


locked Re: No Beeps in Explorer Any More?

 

On Thu, Aug 4, 2022 at 06:43 PM, Steve Matzura wrote:
You missed my point, which was to say that it's not our business to openly wonder why people do the things they do the way they do them. In my opinion, that's just unnecessary and, quite frankly, harsh criticism folks don't need.
-
And I beg to differ, in every respect.  Considering this "harsh criticism" is way, way over the top.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard


Re: NVDA and windows 11

 
Edited

On Thu, Aug 4, 2022 at 06:45 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
If you're unsure about upgrading and don't need new hardware, then Windows 10 will continue to be supported until 2025, so you don't need to make a decision yet. 
-
While what you say is entirely true and correct, there are other factors to consider.  We're now past the 6 months after initial release and all indications, including yours, are that Windows 11 is quite stable and has not proven to be any more problematic than Windows 10 or 8.1.

One thing that constantly gets overlooked, and that I've had to deal with on these groups and in real life, is that there is a period where "everyone who's updated is in information sharing mode, and active information sharing," and this tends to be in the first year after a major release.  Answers tend to come fast and furious, to everyone's benefit.  After that period most who've upgraded or gotten a new machine with Windows 11 will be in coast mode, often not remembering how they accomplished something or that they even did something to make changes at all.

Then you also get into the fact that information that was 100% accurate when written can and does go stale fairly quickly, and then you have to plow through lots of information with an eye on when it was written, and whether it's still accurate multiple months later.  Windows As A Service, even though Feature Updates have now been slowed to once a year, is still a relatively rapidly changing environment.

Take the above into consideration if you are thinking about upgrading to Windows 11 or buying a new computer with Windows 11 on it.  We're no longer at the "bleeding edge" period and there are some advantages to being in the same boat with a lot of others.  Later on, you're more in your own rowboat rather than on a ship with many, many others.

By the way, due to my "hardware situation" I can't upgrade, and as a support tech I'm already running into certain situations where my knowledge of Windows 11 is behind what's current as a result.  And given the price of new computers with the worldwide chip shortage, I'm in no hurry to purchase a new computer.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard


Re: NVDA and windows 11

Quentin Christensen
 

I needed a new PC so I'm now on Windows 11 (and for the same reason I can't give you a commentary on the upgrading experience or on how it runs on the same hardware).  Day to day, it works fine and isn't so different from Windows 10.  Many of the changes are "under the hood" with things like improved security.  There is a new (returned?) Widgets feature - basically a way of providing "live" information like news and weather without you needing to go into anything.  To be honest I've never really played with it too much.  The main day to day difference is the start menu.  I'm not sure why, but (personal opinion) Microsoft seem to be intent on making the start menu less useable with every version of Windows :)  You can still get to "all apps" for instance, but now it takes four keystrokes.  Basically either pin things you want to the taskbar, or use start menu search (press the Windows button, type what you want, eg "word" or "security" or "resume" (you can search for programs, settings, documents or just on the web, as you could in Windows 10).

If you're buying a new PC, then definitely get Windows 11.  If you're unsure about upgrading and don't need new hardware, then Windows 10 will continue to be supported until 2025, so you don't need to make a decision yet.  It does seem to work fine, although of course depending on exactly what programs you are using etc, your experience may differ.

Quentin.



On Fri, Aug 5, 2022 at 3:28 AM mr Krit Kumar kedia <kritparagkedia@...> wrote:
hi all,
actually, I have also not updated to windows 11 yet,
I was looking for some good feedback.
Also, I got to know that there are changes in the main navigation and GUI.
there are no major changes by the view of  new features,
so, right now I dont have a plan to update.

best,
Krit Kedia


On Thu, Aug 4, 2022 at 10:49 PM Monte Single <mrsingle@...> wrote:

Oh my, that should be 2017.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Monte Single
Sent: August 4, 2022 11:15 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and windows 11

 

Hi Rosemarie,

If your pc has an intel processor, it willnot run win 11.

The oldest processor that win11 will work with with is the 8th generation I core cpu, which was released in 1017.

That’s fine.

Micro soft will support win10 until October of 2025.

Of course, win10 will continue to work after this time,  it will just not be officially supported.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: August 4, 2022 10:30 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and windows 11

 

I haven’t updated to windows 11 yet. I don’t know if I’ll be able to because I bought this computer in 2016.

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: JinYoun
Sent: Thursday, August 4, 2022 9:14 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] NVDA and windows 11

 

Hi, I still haven't updated to windows 11 because of fears of it not working well as windows 10 and was curious if everyone else have updated to windows 11? 
If yes, is  it completely accessible with NVDA and do you find it better than windows 10? 
Thank you for any feedback on this. Hope this question is OK to ask on here. 

 



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


locked Re: No Beeps in Explorer Any More?

Steve Matzura
 

Fascinating! I would never have thought of that.


On 8/4/2022 4:55 PM, Sascha Cowley via groups.io wrote:

I believe it is because in more details view the progress bar is replaced with a graph that is filled along the horizontal axis to indicate copy progress, and along the vertical axis to indicate transfer rate over time.
_._,_._,_


Re: Upgrading Windows with NVDA

Steve Matzura
 

Doesn't Windows Update offer that? None of my machines are 11-capable, and the update screen says it right there in plain English: "Your system does not meet the requirements for Windows 11, and here's a link to some things you might be able to do ..." etc. Have you not seen this? Every system on which I have worked since 11 came on the scene has offered it in a standard update, sometimes without the poor unsuspecting user even knowing they got it.

On 8/4/2022 12:36 PM, Daniel Sommerfeld wrote:

Hi Brian.


Well that is typical for me. I mean doing the first step after the second.


Do you know of a usable tool, where i can check, if my pc is fit for Windows 11? I have found some tools but they are not really usable.


Regards

Daniel

Am 04.08.2022 um 17:09 schrieb Brian Vogel:
Yes, in-place upgrades can be done without sighted assistance. Once they're kicked off you will have periods of silence while they're doing the work that needs to be done and the machine will often reboot several times during the process but just pick up where it left off.  Eventually, when everything's done, you're back at the login screen.
--


locked Re: No Beeps in Explorer Any More?

Steve Matzura
 

Curiosity is one thing. Wondering about why people are concerned is quite another. I want what I want out of my screenreader, and if I'm not getting it, it's no business of anyone's why I want it, or for anyone to be concerned about it in any way. Instead of using that phrase, this whole thread (which I was hoping was dead) could have been avoided if you used a phrase like "By the way, you can also get the same information without beeps in the following ways ..." Then you would never have heard from me.

On 8/4/2022 1:36 PM, Gene wrote:
I should add that I might not have raised the question but I thought the message was on the chat list.  Nonetheless, the discussion may encourage people to look around and try things just because they are curious.

Sighted people are aware of all sorts of things related to using programs or other computer-related things just because they see them.  Not looking around needlessly limits your knowledge and information.

Gene
On 8/4/2022 12:20 PM, Gene wrote:
Please stop looking for bad motives.  It should be obvious if you aren't looking to be insulted, that if I were as you describe, that I wouldn't help or be able to help people as I do because I wouldn't know as much as I do and I wouldn't bother to explain it.

I'm simply asking if this is an example of blind people not being as aware of different ways of doing things in Windows because they don't look around.  You can learn a lot by being curious and looking around.  For example, by looking around just because you are curious, you will see lots of information in the footers of list mail such as how to change your delivery status, unsubscribe etc.  By looking at web pages just because you are curious, you may find things that help you work with web pages in general or that one in particular.  For example, by looking around, I found certain patterns, such as that web pages that expect people to contact the company or whatever has put up the page, you will find a pattern.  Most such pages use the phrase contact us or use the word contact in the contact link regardless of whatever words they may use.  I can go to an unfamiliar page and find that link if that is what I'm looking for far faster than if I hadn't looked around and seen that pattern.

Get the chip off of your shoulder.

Gene

On 8/4/2022 11:33 AM, Steve Matzura wrote:
On 8/4/2022 11:54 AM, Gene wrote:
I wonder at times why people are so concerned to hear progress announcements or beeps.

And I wonder at times why you wonder at times about the why's and wherefores of how others work. Are you one of these minimalist blind people that pride themselves on getting by with the least amount of information so they can look like they're so efficient and productive alongside their non-blind counterparts? LOL! I didn't think so. So give it a rest and listen to what other users are saying--that they had the same problem I did but thought it was normal, and they're glad someone asked about it and got a solution that helps their productivity.


And please don't respond to this message. I'm not into flame wars. I'm just trying to point out that if a tool or feature exists, no one should feel they should avoid using it because someone thinks that person's way is inferior or inefficient. The way you work is best for you; the way I work is best for me. The two ways are different. And that should be where this thread ends.


locked Re: No Beeps in Explorer Any More?

Steve Matzura
 

I guess you missed my point, too. Too bad.

On 8/4/2022 1:20 PM, Gene wrote:
Please stop looking for bad motives.  It should be obvious if you aren't looking to be insulted, that if I were as you describe, that I wouldn't help or be able to help people as I do because I wouldn't know as much as I do and I wouldn't bother to explain it.

I'm simply asking if this is an example of blind people not being as aware of different ways of doing things in Windows because they don't look around.  You can learn a lot by being curious and looking around.  For example, by looking around just because you are curious, you will see lots of information in the footers of list mail such as how to change your delivery status, unsubscribe etc.  By looking at web pages just because you are curious, you may find things that help you work with web pages in general or that one in particular.  For example, by looking around, I found certain patterns, such as that web pages that expect people to contact the company or whatever has put up the page, you will find a pattern.  Most such pages use the phrase contact us or use the word contact in the contact link regardless of whatever words they may use.  I can go to an unfamiliar page and find that link if that is what I'm looking for far faster than if I hadn't looked around and seen that pattern.

Get the chip off of your shoulder.

Gene

On 8/4/2022 11:33 AM, Steve Matzura wrote:
On 8/4/2022 11:54 AM, Gene wrote:
I wonder at times why people are so concerned to hear progress announcements or beeps.

And I wonder at times why you wonder at times about the why's and wherefores of how others work. Are you one of these minimalist blind people that pride themselves on getting by with the least amount of information so they can look like they're so efficient and productive alongside their non-blind counterparts? LOL! I didn't think so. So give it a rest and listen to what other users are saying--that they had the same problem I did but thought it was normal, and they're glad someone asked about it and got a solution that helps their productivity.


And please don't respond to this message. I'm not into flame wars. I'm just trying to point out that if a tool or feature exists, no one should feel they should avoid using it because someone thinks that person's way is inferior or inefficient. The way you work is best for you; the way I work is best for me. The two ways are different. And that should be where this thread ends.


locked Re: No Beeps in Explorer Any More?

Steve Matzura
 

You missed my point, which was to say that it's not our business to openly wonder why people do the things they do the way they do them. In my opinion, that's just unnecessary and, quite frankly, harsh criticism folks don't need. Ask all you like about why others do things differently than you do; using phrases like "I wonder why" can be easily misinterpreted to mean "How silly you are to do things that way, when my way is so superior--I don't need all that other nonsense." Suggesting better methods is always good; putting someone down for failing to acknowledge the superiority of your methods or for using others that you yourself might not like or use, that's not cool.


On 8/4/2022 12:37 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Thu, Aug 4, 2022 at 12:33 PM, Steve Matzura wrote:
And I wonder at times why you wonder at times about the why's and wherefores of how others work.
-
Take your own advice.  All of us have the right to wonder about how other people handle things, and to express our opinions about same.  It's no skin off your nose.

In addition, and this is not a case like this, very often "how someone works" reveals an ignorance about other options.  I can't count the number of times someone's said that they do something one way, which is without question a more difficult way, and were advised by others that a number of other options exist.

I have tired of people who seem to thing that being challenged or questioned on a group like this one is inappropriate.  It isn't.  You, and anyone else, is free to take or reject any advice offered.

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

         ~ Vance Packard

_._,_._,_


Re: Using NVDA with Windows 11 IOT & RDP

Andrew Eliasz
 

Thanks
Take care
Andrew

On Thu, 4 Aug 2022 at 20:10, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

I could quote small later parts of the message to bolster my case, but this should be adequate.

Thank you for sharing this article and for allowing the discussion!
I enjoyed reading the article and was not aware of some of the history.
I was reading the article using Firefox and NVDA
I ran into multiple accessibility issues while reading
Probably because I was reading using explore by mouse...  :-)

If the person wasn't reading the article as that appears to indeicate he was, I'd like to know.  He has never said he didn't.  If he says he didn't and explain what he did, I'll be happy to address that.

Nothing I said is unclearly stated and it is the reasonable understanding of what he says he did.

Gene


Learn how to work with bibliographies and citations in Microsoft Word with NVDA. New video!

TheeQuinn Public
 

Hey hey everyone. I know its been a while since I have posted in here but I am back! And you know that I always come bearing gifts.
A new video is out, and this video has been frequently requested for a while now. In this video, I show you how to insert and update citations and bibliographies in Microsoft Word with NVDA. Hopefully this video will help you out, and as usual, I am looking forward to your feedback. Thanks for the support and much love.
Video link:


locked Re: No Beeps in Explorer Any More?

Sascha Cowley
 

I believe it is because in more details view the progress bar is replaced with a graph that is filled along the horizontal axis to indicate copy progress, and along the vertical axis to indicate transfer rate over time.


Re: Article on Screen Reader History (including NVDA)

Gene
 

Also, when I first started discussing this question, I didn't intend for the thread to go on over many days as this one has.  Someone specifically said that he had accessibility issues reading an article that should present none.  I explained why I thought he was having them and presented different ways of reading the article. 

I'll be interested in your response to my message addressing your comments, but until something important and new comes up that I think I should respond to, I won't write more in the discussion.

In brief, whatever the person did, even if I am wrong about what he did, he himself said he had accessibility problems.  If he uses read to end or down arrows through the article, he won't have accessibility problems reading it nor will he in reading other articles on web pages unless the pages actually do have problems. 

I hope the person benefits from what I've said but at this point, I doubt there is anything more that will add to the discussion for me to say.

Gene

On 8/4/2022 3:14 PM, Gene wrote:

I don't know if what you are describing includes what I am discussing.

Are you saying that if someone has enough sight to line a mouse up at the beginning of article text and hear NVDA speak what is under the mouse, that line of text, then move the mouse down to the next line and have NVDA announce what is under the mouse, and read an entire Internet article in that way, that that is an intended use?
That isn't my understanding of how browse mode works.

I have stated what my understanding is of what the person did.  And the person said he had many accessibility issues in his first message, ;part of which I quoted.

the ;person has never said he didn't do what I think he did, though I have said more than once if he did something else, I'd like to know it. 
I'd still like to know if he did something different and what it is. 

Whatever the person did, he said himself that he is having accessibility problems.

If you want to correct me, that's fine but as I say, I have never seen it stated that browse mode should be used in that way.  And in other contexts, when you read a long Word document for example, my understanding is that a sighted person scrolls to the next page, moving from screen to screen.  Just moving a mouse down the screen would result in the person getting to the end of the screen and needing to take some action to move to the next text.

And I would expect what I said to apply to the touch gestures you are describing as well.

Gene

On 8/4/2022 2:23 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi Gene and others,

Could you mind explain the reasons behind NV Access adding the following commands in 2012:

  • One finger flick down: read next line in text review mode
  • One finger flick up: read previous line in text review mode

Context: it's 2012,, and Microsoft announced Windows 8. Well, we'll just say that, for the purposes of this thread, Windows 8 was touch-centric. Microsoft engineers then say to themselves, "okay, we have a screen reader called Narrator that ships with Windows. Since Windows 8 will be a friend to touchscreens, what can Narrator do?" The result: touch commands in Narrator. Fast forward to June 2012, and NV Access folks (back then, Mick and Jamie) said, "okay, Narrator might be developing a touch-centric commands. Can NVDA do it?" The result: NVDA 2012.3 with touch support. Fast forward to 2013, and a college student from United States says to himself, "okay, NVDA comes with touchscreen support, but some important commands are missing. Can I improve it somehow?" The result: Enhanced Touch Gestures add-on.

I think it would have made sense to say that the intention of screen reader developers (count me in as one of them) was focus solely on keyboard navigation. This made sense until 2009, but we know what happened that year. Nowadays, I think it makes more sense to say that keyboard is a primary input method, with mouse and touchscreens (and other interaction paradigms) slowly catching up.

I carefully pose the following: part of our insistence that keyboard interaction is the only way to use screen readers is our own assistive tech training. As many people pointed out (directly or not), in the 20th century, we grew up with the notion that mouse interaction was out of reach due to the notion that blind people cannot interact with screen elements effectively, hence tutorials and teachers focused on keyboard navigation. In 2020's, the screen reader landscape and interaction paradigm are vastly different, with tutorials and teachers also mentionig touchscreens and mouse features. Why did various screen readers began focusing on touch and mouse interaction in the 2010's? Among other reasons, the proliferation of touchscreens made ap developers, operating system vendors, screen reader developers, and users realize the advantages and drawbacks of different paradigms.

As a person who have experienced different input paradigms (keyboards, braille displays, touchscreens, mouse, voice, and even code), happen to be a long-time user of various screen readers (NVDA and JAWS, to name a few), and produced tutorials for assistive tech software and hardware, I understand the sentiment that keyboard is the way to go as far as screen reader interaction paradigm is concerned. But remember the bug fix item I posted earlier: I am the person who brought that bug fix, stemming from my belief that users can use a variety of input devices to accomplish the intention of a screen reader: to process, interpret, and present screen information. And trust me, that bug fix took sleep away from me a few weeks ago (in the end, it worked out).

What I'm ultimately saying is this: let us teach users to dream big. Keyboards, while the primary interaction paradigm, is not the only way to get a screen reader to perform its task, letting users understand what is shown on screen. Let us not perpetuate an "input interaction blackout" - limiting people to just the pimary ways of doing things to not notice other possibilities exis. And in the immediate context, it is certaintly possible to read web content via mouse and touch - we were used to keyboards because virtual buffers (browse mode) are designed for document navigation with keyboards in mind, but today's web calls for different interaction strategies.

Cheers,

Joseph




Re: Article on Screen Reader History (including NVDA)

Gene
 

I don't know if what you are describing includes what I am discussing.

Are you saying that if someone has enough sight to line a mouse up at the beginning of article text and hear NVDA speak what is under the mouse, that line of text, then move the mouse down to the next line and have NVDA announce what is under the mouse, and read an entire Internet article in that way, that that is an intended use?
That isn't my understanding of how browse mode works.

I have stated what my understanding is of what the person did.  And the person said he had many accessibility issues in his first message, ;part of which I quoted.

the ;person has never said he didn't do what I think he did, though I have said more than once if he did something else, I'd like to know it. 
I'd still like to know if he did something different and what it is. 

Whatever the person did, he said himself that he is having accessibility problems.

If you want to correct me, that's fine but as I say, I have never seen it stated that browse mode should be used in that way.  And in other contexts, when you read a long Word document for example, my understanding is that a sighted person scrolls to the next page, moving from screen to screen.  Just moving a mouse down the screen would result in the person getting to the end of the screen and needing to take some action to move to the next text.

And I would expect what I said to apply to the touch gestures you are describing as well.

Gene

On 8/4/2022 2:23 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi Gene and others,

Could you mind explain the reasons behind NV Access adding the following commands in 2012:

  • One finger flick down: read next line in text review mode
  • One finger flick up: read previous line in text review mode

Context: it's 2012,, and Microsoft announced Windows 8. Well, we'll just say that, for the purposes of this thread, Windows 8 was touch-centric. Microsoft engineers then say to themselves, "okay, we have a screen reader called Narrator that ships with Windows. Since Windows 8 will be a friend to touchscreens, what can Narrator do?" The result: touch commands in Narrator. Fast forward to June 2012, and NV Access folks (back then, Mick and Jamie) said, "okay, Narrator might be developing a touch-centric commands. Can NVDA do it?" The result: NVDA 2012.3 with touch support. Fast forward to 2013, and a college student from United States says to himself, "okay, NVDA comes with touchscreen support, but some important commands are missing. Can I improve it somehow?" The result: Enhanced Touch Gestures add-on.

I think it would have made sense to say that the intention of screen reader developers (count me in as one of them) was focus solely on keyboard navigation. This made sense until 2009, but we know what happened that year. Nowadays, I think it makes more sense to say that keyboard is a primary input method, with mouse and touchscreens (and other interaction paradigms) slowly catching up.

I carefully pose the following: part of our insistence that keyboard interaction is the only way to use screen readers is our own assistive tech training. As many people pointed out (directly or not), in the 20th century, we grew up with the notion that mouse interaction was out of reach due to the notion that blind people cannot interact with screen elements effectively, hence tutorials and teachers focused on keyboard navigation. In 2020's, the screen reader landscape and interaction paradigm are vastly different, with tutorials and teachers also mentionig touchscreens and mouse features. Why did various screen readers began focusing on touch and mouse interaction in the 2010's? Among other reasons, the proliferation of touchscreens made ap developers, operating system vendors, screen reader developers, and users realize the advantages and drawbacks of different paradigms.

As a person who have experienced different input paradigms (keyboards, braille displays, touchscreens, mouse, voice, and even code), happen to be a long-time user of various screen readers (NVDA and JAWS, to name a few), and produced tutorials for assistive tech software and hardware, I understand the sentiment that keyboard is the way to go as far as screen reader interaction paradigm is concerned. But remember the bug fix item I posted earlier: I am the person who brought that bug fix, stemming from my belief that users can use a variety of input devices to accomplish the intention of a screen reader: to process, interpret, and present screen information. And trust me, that bug fix took sleep away from me a few weeks ago (in the end, it worked out).

What I'm ultimately saying is this: let us teach users to dream big. Keyboards, while the primary interaction paradigm, is not the only way to get a screen reader to perform its task, letting users understand what is shown on screen. Let us not perpetuate an "input interaction blackout" - limiting people to just the pimary ways of doing things to not notice other possibilities exis. And in the immediate context, it is certaintly possible to read web content via mouse and touch - we were used to keyboards because virtual buffers (browse mode) are designed for document navigation with keyboards in mind, but today's web calls for different interaction strategies.

Cheers,

Joseph



Re: Using NVDA with Windows 11 IOT & RDP

 

Hi,

In theory, yes, you can install NVDA on Windows 11 IoT Enterprise and connect to that system via Remote Desktop Connection, but remember that Windows IoT is really meant for specialized scenarios.

Cheers,

Joseph

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