Hello Russ,


I have used LO with Orca up to a couple of years ago. Now I haven't used my Linux distros for a while, so I don't know if the respective upgrades have changed things.


I don't know if it's written in Java...


Sory, i'm not Rui... lol!


Ciao, peace,

Ollie

I disagree. I learned from my trainer, but he did not say what was windows
and what was not. Now that I think about it it would have been nice, now
that I know that, I think most computer users should be good enough to at
least google simple "windows shortcut keys." I hate hand holding, and I
don't do it, not unless the person is 100 percent new and very lost, but if
I know they have a grasp on things then I step back and let them founder on
their own.

Below my signature, I'm sending my ribbons tutorial. When discussions of this kind come up, I often send it because people may not know about it and I think an important reason people don't like ribbons and have considerable problems using them is because they didn't get proper training on them, if any.

I don't know if it was used in this way to any extent but aside from being a convenience feature, and it can be argued whether it should be in a screen-reader or not as such, but the original idea was that it could be used as a basis for other things such as to be adapted for use in an employment situations.

there are all sorts of convenience programs and utilities such as radio station programs. Their purpose is not to avoid the use of search engines but to provide information in a convenient manner.

I don't object to such programs but I do object to blind people being taught them before they have properly mastered basic skills like search engines. Learning such programs first removes some motivation to use search engines. It also reduces motivation to develop skills working with different kinds of web sites. Someone might learn to look at a sports site and use table reading commands. Teaching Research it may remove an important motivation to learn this skill.

Teaching it after the person has learned the skill is fine if the person has learned it well.

Gene

I'll provide a brief tutorial based on what I wrote years ago of how to work with ribbons.

I've added a little to it here.

Ribbons are ribbons wherever you find them. This tutorial teaches you how to move through them and see or skip what you want. certain ways of movement may cause you to miss things and not have any idea you are.

First, I'll discuss a structure found in later versions of Windows that you need to know about-- the split button.
One thing you will see as you look around ribbons and in other places in Windows are split buttons. A split button often allows you to see more options than just the default action. Let's take an example.
Let's say you come across a split button that says shut down Windows. If you press enter on that button, Windows will shut down. That is the default action. Split buttons often show more options if you either right arrow while on the button or down arrow. As an example, if you are on the shut down split button, you can right arrow and a list of options will open. the items in the list include sleep, hibernate, restart, and others. You up or down arrow through the list or use the short cut commands you hear announced as you move through the list. the letter shortcuts often take actions without pressing enter so be careful when using them, just as you are in menus.

So, let's review. You find a split button that says shut down. If you press enter, the computer will shut down. If you right arrow, other options may be displayed. Or if you down arrow, other options may be displayed. A split button won't work with both methods. One method, either right arrowing or down arrowing will do so if it can be done with the button. Try both methods if you don't know which one might work. If you are on a tool bar which extends across the screen from left to right, down arrowing will open additional options. If the strucgture moves up and down on the screen, right arrowing will open more options. That's why if one doesn't work, try the other. If you open the options a split button offers and don't want to work with them, arrow in the opposite direction to move out of them. For example, if you right arrowed to open more options, left arrow.
Some split buttons don't do anything when you right arrow or down arrow. In that case, open them with alt down arrow. Then tab through the additional options. I've almost never worked in this way with split buttons but if you want to close a split button, try alt up arrow if you've used alt down arrow to open it.

Now, to ribbons themselves.

Regarding ribbons, much of the complaining about them is not warranted if you understand how they work and how to use short cut commands effectively and efficiently. and I would strongly recommend against using the JAWS virtual menus, no matter what the JAWS training material says about ribbons being difficult to use. the training material is just plain wrong and using virtual menus, you will be unnecessarily dependent on one screen-reader. There are other disadvantages to using them which I won't go into here. I will say regarding the dependence on one screen-reader iswsue that tutorials for programs that use ribbons done for blind people generally don't use the JAWS virtual ribbons and you will be greatly limiting yourself in learning such programs with tutorials if you use the JAWS virtual ribbons. The JAWS virtual ribbons are off by default so you needn't do anything if you haven't turned them on.

Try looking at ribbons and doing what is described below in wordpad. Everyone with Windows 7 and higher has the ribbon version of Wordpad on their machine.

The essence of working with ribbons is this:
Press alt to move to the upper ribbon.
You will probably be on an item that says home tab. Items on the upper ribbon are announced as tabs such as home tab, view tab, etc.
To see what ribbons are available, right or left arrow repeatedly to move through the ribbons. Move in one
direction to move through all of them, just as you would to move through all the menus.

For this demonstration, just so we are all doing the same thing, move with the right arrow. When you get back to where you started, you can keep right arrowing to move through the items again, if you wish. You can move through all the items as many times as you want. Or you can move with the left arrow whenever you want to move in the opposite direction.

Stop on view. Then start tabbing. You will move through all items in what is called the lower ribbon that are in the view ribbon.

In other words you tab to see the items in a ribbon once you move to it. Tab moves you forward through the items, shift tab moves you backword.
So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow.

Many items in the lower ribbon are buttons. Use either the space bar or enter to activate the button. You may find a button that opens a menu and if you press enter or the space bar, you will then be in a menu.

Each time you move to an item, you will hear the short cut command to work with that item.
But JAWS has a bug and you often won't. To hear the short cut, use the command JAWS key tab. If you are using the default JAWS key, it is either insert.

Try tabbing to an item in a Wordpad ribbon and using the command insert tab. You will hear some extraneous information. The last thing you will hear is the short cut sequence. You can repeat the information by repeating the command as often as you want.

Let's look at an item which is usually called the application menu. Return to the main program window in wordpad by closing the ribbons. You can either press escape repeatedly, if necessary, or you can press alt once. Now, open the ribbons again with alt.
Start right arrowing until you get to the application menu.
You will hear application menu and then something like button drop down grid. Never mind drop down grid. It's a description you don't have to worry about. The important things are that you are on a button and at the application menu. Press enter or the space bar to activate the button. Activating the button opens the menu. Start down arrowing. you will hear the item you are on and the short cut information to open or cause that item to take an action. This iss the same behavior as in any standard menu.

I told you one of the long ways to open the menu. The short cut way is alt f. When you open the menu and move through it, you will hear all the letters announced. for example, if you down arrow to save as, you will hear alt f a. that means that, when you are in the main program window, you open the menu with alt f, then type a. Alt f opens the menu and a then opens save as. In other words, alt f was chosen as the short cut way to open the single menu in ribbon programs because it allowed the preservation of commands people have used for decades, such as alt f, a, for save as.

Ribbon programs have one menu and you should look through it. Many important and common commands and interfaces such as options may be there. By options, I mean the kind of options interface you used to find in the tools menu.

Now the we have seen the menu, let's look at the ribbons structure some more.
To review, and add more information, as you have seen, you can move to the ribbon interface with alt. Then right and left arrow, just as you would move from menu to menu.
You can also move to a ribbon using alt and a letter. So, alt h takes you to the home ribbon. Alt v takes you to the view ribbon, etc. Once you are on the ribbon you want to work with, tab to move forward through the items in a ribbon. Shift tab to move back through the items. So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow.
Ribbons are divided into categories which you will hear announced as you tab. for example, in an e-mail program, a ribbon may have a category named respond. You may hear this announced as respond tool bar. As you tab, you will hear commands such as reply and forward in the respond category. When you hear a category announced, don't tab until you hear everything spoken. You will miss the first command in the category if you do. I'm talking about working with an unfamiliar ribbon.
there are often many more commands and items in a ribbon than in a menu. So memorize command sequences for items you know you will use regularly.
As I said, there are different categories in ribbons to help organize items. You can quickly jump from category to category in a ribbon to help you see if there is a category you want to look through.
Move to a ribbon in Wordpad. For example, alt h for hhome or alt v for view.
Then repeatedly issue the command control right arrow to move forward from category to category and control left arrow to move back. When you get to a category you want to hear the items in, start tabbing. Of course, you can shift tab to move back.

You can switch between moving by groups and individual items as often as you want. You can move to a group, look through the items, then continue to move by group, switching to individual items again when you find a group you want to move through by individual items.
Open a ribbon in Wordpad and tab through it to see how it is organized by moving through it.
Then use control right arrow to move by category and tab to see what is in a category.

Commands such as control o, control n, control s, control r, etc. are mostly retained in programs
that use ribbons, though you won't hear them announced. If you don't already know them, you'll have to find them in ways such as by looking at a list of keyboard commands for the program. Such lists are often available in the help for the program. If you already know the commands from having used an older version of the program, most or perhaps even all of the commands you know will work.

On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 10:04 PM, Gene wrote:

but it might be a good idea to have something.

-
I don't think anyone, least of all me, would argue against this.

It really is an issue of where it belongs.  And I don't care what organization might be producing such documentation, either.  It's common for organizations such as NVAccess to produce guides to working with {insert program here} with NVDA.  There's nothing wrong with that, at all.

But the user guide for whatever should focus on that whatever.  The other interactions that occur, and will be mentioned, are incidental to the focus on the product under central discussion.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them.  And then you destroy yourself.

       ~ Richard M. Nixon

 

I haven't looked at screen-reader user guides for a long time. My recollection is that in the past, they described Windows enough to allow someone to use it in basic ways such as describing how to work with files and folders. This was a long time ago when Windows 95 and 98 were being used and most blind people hadn't used Windows. That's how I learned enough about Windows to use it and to start adding to my knowledge in different ways.

You can discuss or debate whether it would be better to have a section in the guide before the guide starts about learning something about Windows or whether such a section should be its own separate document, but it might be a good idea to have something.

Gene

Yep, I've recently learned more about the ribbons, finally, and honestly my fear of them based on comments I've heard for years was worse than actually learning to find things in them.

I'm not yet comfortable there, but eventually I'll know enough quick keystroke sequences in Word for example, to do things as quickly as I did years ago when the pulldown menus were static.


Speaking of crutches, does anyone else think ResearchIt is for people who can't or won't use Google? (grin)

--

On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 07:07 PM, Luke Davis wrote:

Worse, as I understand it, sometimes Jaws, et al have created their own versions of Windows shortcut commands, which just muddies the waters.

-
Even though this is not a JAWS group, I'm giving myself a personal dispensation to say this:  The "virtual ribbon" is the worst possible crutch ever foist upon those who are screen reader users.

You need to know how to use the ecosystem as it exists, period, end of sentence.  And when the UI changes, you change.  The fact that we have people whining about the ribbon interface in 2021 makes me want to scream.  It's here to stay, it's just a menu with a slightly different access method, and you (the generic you) had darned well ought to know how to use it without any need for something to make it behave differently than it already does, because it's 100% accessible.

I also hate when people remap Windows keyboard shortcuts except in the rarest of circumstances.  I have seen far too many who've done this forget that they have done this, and what they've done it for, placed in front of a stock Windows system with their screen reader of choice and be unable to do lots of basic things because they have no idea of the native keyboard shortcuts.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them.  And then you destroy yourself.

       ~ Richard M. Nixon

 

On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 07:07 PM, Luke Davis wrote:

Why should that [prior Windows experience] be presumed?

-
Because I can count on less than one hand when someone entirely new to Windows suddenly appears on any screen reader venue for the screen readers that are exclusive to Windows.

If there is the odd person who's coming into Windows anew, say having decided to leave the Apple ecosystem, it is incumbent on them to mention this.

I'm willing to bet that were we to post a poll asking something like, "When you were brand new to NVDA, did you have previous experience with Windows (whether with a screen reader or not)?," where the options were Yes/No we'd have very, very, very few "Nos."

And if someone is brand new to Windows, a screen reader group is not the place to be learning the basics of Windows, either.  You really need to have some basic Windows skills before you even try to learn a screen reader "from distance."  It is my opinion, and Nimer can correct me if he is in disagreement, that this group is not now and never has been about teaching basic Windows skills. 

We seem to get way more people who are fleeing JAWS (whatever the reason) than anything else.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them.  And then you destroy yourself.

       ~ Richard M. Nixon

 

Well said Luke.

On Wed, 7 Apr 2021, Brian Vogel wrote:

-And even though this is absolutely true, NVDA documentation should not focus on Windows commands, either.

I don't disagree, but I am curious about:

But it should be presumed that someone coming to NVDA is and has already been a Windows user and already
knows the keyboard shortcuts used to do things like cut, copy, paste, save, save as, and the list goes on and on.

Why should that be presumed?

As I understand it, one of the core intents for NVDA is second or third world use, where other screen readers are either not available, or are prohibitively expensive. (Obviously, this does not take into account Narrator's increasing capabilities.)

In such circumstances, a blind user likely has no Windows experience at all, and shouldn't be expected to have it. Additionally, it doesn't seem reasonable to assume that such users have good access to trainers of any kind beyond basic installation.

Therefore, what am I missing that makes it logical to expect them to have prior Windows experience?

It is important, critically important, to be able to separate out "who controls what," and by that I mean knowing what commands are Windows commands and work pretty much everywhere under Windows, what are screen reader commands, and what are commands specific to the application being accessed.

Absolutely true. In my experience, trainers for Window-eyes and Jaws, have rarely taught that difference. People I have worked with to try to teach them to use NVDA, have often been completely ignorant, and surprised by the fact, that some of the shortcuts they knew were actually Windows commands. They tend to assume that nothing they already know is applicable, because they think it is all screen reader commands; and are afraid to try things because they think it will make something happen that they won't be able to come back from. Worse, as I understand it, sometimes Jaws, et al have created their own versions of Windows shortcut commands, which just muddies the waters.

Luke

On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 07:27 AM, Chris Smart wrote:

Windows is universal to all NVDA users.

-
And even though this is absolutely true, NVDA documentation should not focus on Windows commands, either.  Of course some will come up incidentally as you can't divorce a piece of software, in this case NVDA, from the ecosystem it runs under, which means that "natural interactions" between the two will occur in any user manual or similar at certain moments.

But it should be presumed that someone coming to NVDA is and has already been a Windows user and already knows the keyboard shortcuts used to do things like cut, copy, paste, save, save as, and the list goes on and on.

In addition, there is really excellent documentation for NVDA and for virtually any Microsoft offering you can name, including Excel.  You're going to need both, but the commands for NVDA have nothing to do with Excel (and, no, I'm not counting dedicated add-ons, which are another discussion) nor do the Excel commands have anything to do with NVDA.  You can insert any of the following in place of Excel and the principle applies: Word, Firefox, PowerPoint, Chrome, Edge, etc., etc., etc.

It is important, critically important, to be able to separate out "who controls what," and by that I mean knowing what commands are Windows commands and work pretty much everywhere under Windows, what are screen reader commands, and what are commands specific to the application being accessed.  These things interact with each other, but are definitely separate from each other in terms of "whos doing what."  And knowing who does what is the very first step in solving an issue (or knowing that you don't know, and asking to get clarity).
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them.  And then you destroy yourself.

       ~ Richard M. Nixon

 

Windows is universal to all NVDA users. Excel, Word, Thunderbird, pick whichever application you want, are not used by every NVDA user!  There is basic training available for Excel from NV  Access. Go buy yourself a copy.