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Re: Beginning basic programming with Python and nvda

multi 85
 

Hi Joseph
No, I wasn't arguing that a blind person cannot take a visual course.
What I was arguing is, some of these correspondents courses listed
there do seem very visual, and to be honest, if it does have graphs,
statistics and so on, then I am not too sure how a blind person can
take such courses in that sort of way, especially, for subjects like
that, you then need textbooks in all sorts of formats and help, and
I'm sure these web courses do not provide that?
Take maths for example, unfortunately I can't think of any online
maths courses that sighted students are taking that are accessible. As
far as I'm aware, I once tried a maths course as a MOOC, and,
obviously, sadly it was a non-starter from the word go.
Surely, also many of these data visualisation courses, I am trying to
wrap my head around the idea of how a person could do them as Mooc at
all. You would obviously have to have taken many other courses at an
actual college and thn sort of work the moocs into them, but starting
and trying just from the beginning with mooc, is that really doable?
It would be great if it somehow actually is. I know too little on that
subject to comment.
It would actually be a very interesting point to know if blind people
have had any success engaging with a mooc instructor of some hard
subjects like that and have got much accommodation, which platform and
instructor did this, if any.

On 9/27/22, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:
Hi,

Having taken courses that are heavily visual (and I know some of us did the
same), I can say that it is possible for a blind person to take visual
courses although accommodations are still required. More importantly, you
need to know the instructor well as what can make a difference is how
instructors talk about concepts and steps such as graphs, visualizations,
statistics, and so on. I do encourage students to give computer programming
a try and learn more than just programming - after all, what programming
will teach you is how to organize your thoughts more clearly.

As somewhat of a tangent or rather related to this forum: do not learn
Python simply to write NVDA add-ons or think contributing to NVDA with your
Python knowledge is all there is to it. I want some of us to get away from
that mindset, otherwise our NVDA code contribution journey will be
difficult. Learning Python opens up many possibilities, as well as teach you
quite a few life lessons such as critical thinking.

Good luck.

Cheers,

Joseph






Re: windows11 22h2 microsoft guy, aria, and jenny with NVDA?

Şenolcan HANCI
 

For now we can’t

 

Windows için Posta ile gönderildi

 

Kimden: Josh Kennedy
Gönderilme: 28 Eylül 2022 Çarşamba 03:35
Kime: nvda@groups.io
Konu: [nvda] windows11 22h2 microsoft guy, aria, and jenny with NVDA?

 

Hi,

Will it soon be possible to use the new narrator windows11 22h2 extremely natural voices, Jenny, guy, and Aria, with NVDA? These voices sound better than anything we’ve ever had before. And is there a way for these voices to be accessed with sapi5?

 

 

Josh

 

 

 


Re: NVDA cursor automatically placed in conversations list in gMail standard view

Gene
 

I know you said eventually and that may be, eventually.  I think it is likely that Basic HTML will be around for a good while.

I find no relevant results in the first ten when I do Google searches such as GMail to end Basic HTML or Google to end Basic HTML.

Google says this in part about Basic HTML:
You're about to use a version of Gmail designed for slower connections and legacy browsers.

I suspect that in many parts of the world, slow connections are common.  Under such conditions, it is faster to use basic HTML. 

Also, the beginning of this article:
https://www.howtogeek.com/791987/gmail-basic-html-inbox/On 9/27/2022 7:07 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
gives a number of reasons people may want to use Basic HTML.  I suspect considerably more people use it than you may think.

Gene
On 9/27/2022 7:07 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Bob,

As has been pointed out by Louise, Google has been putting "the writing on the wall" about the ultimate fate of Basic HTML view for quite a while now.

No one will ever have any legitimate claim to being surprised when the door is eventually actually shut for good.  They have put a ton of work into maximizing the accessibility of the standard view, and all its bells and whistles, because it will eventually be the only view.
--

Brian Virginia, USA  Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Memory is a crazy woman that hoards rags and throws away food.

         ~ Austin O'Malley



Re: windows11 22h2 microsoft guy, aria, and jenny with NVDA?

Brian's Mail list account
 

Yes I got the feeling from what I read that a stand alone API is not written yet, hence they only work in Microsoft products.

Its probably not going to be the existing APIs either, but a new one which has other parameters that are needed for the voices. Also you find, even in Microsoft own programs that they seem sluggish. There has to be more processing going on.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2022 1:43 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] windows11 22h2 microsoft guy, aria, and jenny with NVDA?


The current consensus is that the natural voices are going to be available in Narrator and other Microsoft reader products only for the time being.

I imagine there will be a big announcement if/when they become otherwise available for use.
--

Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Memory is a crazy woman that hoards rags and throws away food.

~ Austin O'Malley


locked Re: From the JFW User's list (yes, there is a direct NVDA tie in): How to stop jaws from interfering with an application's keyboard commands

Brian's Mail list account
 

That only works if the same exe program is being run all the time, which is seldom the case in many programmes.

Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2022 5:39 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] From the JFW User's list (yes, there is a direct NVDA tie in): How to stop jaws from interfering with an application's keyboard commands


Hi,

I think the closest is sleep mode attribute in app modules. The sleep mode toggle command (NVDA+Shift+S/Z) turns off input and output processing for the focused app only. You can verify this as follows:

1. Open any app where you wish to toggle sleep mode.
2. Press Control+NVDA+Z to open Python Console.
3. Type the code fragment below (below tihs list).
4 Close Python Console.
5. Enter sleep mode fro mthe current application.
6. Turn off sleep mode after NVDA finishes spekaing something.

Code fragment from Python Console (type Enter after each line):

import wx
n = wx.adv.NotificationMessage("test", "testing")
wx.CallLater(5000, n.Show)


The above code fragment (sorry for the formatting) will let NVDA show a toast notification message five seconds after you press Enter on the last line. After pressing Enter on the last line, press Escape to close Python Console and activate sleep mode from the focused app within say, three seconds. You will then notice that NVDA goes to "sleep" from the focused app but announces the test message as toast notification comes from a different program.

Cheers,

Joseph


locked Re: From the JFW User's list (yes, there is a direct NVDA tie in): How to stop jaws from interfering with an application's keyboard commands

Brian's Mail list account
 

Its never a good idea to have both screenreaders running.

They do interfere, Even Narrator running can cause problems.
Another one recently found was that I was asked to put NVDA on a machine which originally only had Dolphin Guide Connect on it, so the user could learn windows but have the ability to still use Guide.
Fine, except that you actually have to stop NVDA completely before running guide as although it appears to silence nvda, it is active and stops some keys on Guide from working.


The only way out was to use a batch file to run guide and part of it shut down nvda, meaning it had to be manually started on exit from guide.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Nimer Jaber" <nimerjaber1@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2022 5:29 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] From the JFW User's list (yes, there is a direct NVDA tie in): How to stop jaws from interfering with an application's keyboard commands


There is a setting that *may* accomplish this, but I don't have a way of
testing right now. That is the setting for passing keystrokes to the
application. I believe that this has more to do with web keystrokes, just
as the JAWS feature does, but it may be possible that NVDA passes
keystrokes to JAWS because JAWS is running and JAWS steals the keystrokes?
Not sure... It's typically not a great idea to run both simultaneously
anyway.

On Tue, Sep 27, 2022 at 9:14 PM Quentin Christensen <quentin@...>
wrote:

I'm not aware of such a mode either Brian....

NVDA+shift+s (or for laptop: NVDA+shift+z) puts NVDA into sleep mode,
which "disables all NVDA commands and speech/braille output for the current
application".

There is the NVDA+F2 pass through key which "Tells NVDA to pass the next
key press straight through to the active application - even if it is
normally treated as an NVDA key command" - that will then speak anything
the command happens to do - but you need to press it for each keystroke.

If someone has a quirky hack to accomplish it, like plugging a second
keyboard in, then I'd be interested as well, but I'm not aware of it.

Note: Plugging a second keyboard in, to my knowledge will not work - it
will simply pass any keystrokes you press on it to the computer as normal -
in fact, I just tried and you can even press a keystroke across two
keyboards - I just held down ALT on my laptop keyboard and pressed TAB on
my external keyboard and it switches windows. Neat, but I can't think of a
time I would use it.


On Wed, Sep 28, 2022 at 9:16 AM Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

Here is the topic:
How to stop jaws from interfering with an application's keyboard commands
<https://groups.io/g/jfw-users/topic/93954239>
This is the claim I find incredibly confusing, and believe to be false,
"Yeah it puts the synth to sleep as well, so no speech from the game using
Jaws, which is why that option isn't always useful in my case. Some of you
mentioned there's no way to pass all keystrokes through to the application
using any screen reader, except for the fact that NVDA does exactly this,
with no problems."

The individual asking this keeps claiming that NVDA can and does have a
way (and not sleeping NVDA, but where NVDA still narrates/announces) where
all keystrokes are passed through to the underlying application without any
need to use the pass-through command nor with any NVDA actions being
taken. Kinda like a speaking sleep.

I have never seen or experienced any such mode, and unless I've taken
leave of my senses it simply does not exist. But I had to ask if anyone
knows of any such mode and, if so, how one gets it activated, as it's
certainly not the default mode.
--

Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Memory is a crazy woman that hoards rags and throws away food.

~ Austin O'Malley

--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Web: www.nvaccess.org
Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/
User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>


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Re: NVDA cursor automatically placed in conversations list in gMail standard view

Gene
 

I misunderstood your message.  But this needs to be stated more clearly in my  opinion.

Once you are signed into GMail, you remain signed in until you sign out no matter how many times you leave the site and close the browser.  So it is correct, once you are signed in, you can use the link you gave and that is for going to the site directly, you don't have to sign in repeatedly.

Gene

On 9/27/2022 6:38 PM, Louise Pfau wrote:

On Tue, Sep 27, 2022 at 05:07 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
I'll let others answer your original question, as it's worth discussing as far as accessing Gmail webmail with NVDA.

Although Google has claimed that they're going to kill Basic HTML View, they still have not.  It's just now kinda-sorta hidden as far as getting to it.  Once you are logged in to Gmail you can use the following link,  Basic HTML version of Gmail, to change back to the Basic HTML version.  Just bookmark that link and after you log in to Gmail and land in the standard view you can activate it to shift back to Basic HTML view (at least until Google actually inally kills it entirely).
Hi Brian.  I have the link you provided already bookmarked, in fact that's what I use all the time.  When I used the "sign in" link on it this morning though, the standard html was activated for some reason.

Thanks,

Louise


Re: NVDA cursor automatically placed in conversations list in gMail standard view

Brian's Mail list account
 

With respect though, the sluggishness and the vendors ability to suddenly alter the way it all works with no notice are shortcomings of web based apps.

I find Twitter annoying too, but I'll not go there.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Nimer Jaber" <nimerjaber1@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2022 2:05 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA cursor automatically placed in conversations list in gMail standard view #addonrelease


Hello,

While I find the standard view of Gmail different, I don't find it to be
worse than the Basic HTML. In fact, I find it allows for much greater
productivity and functionality. We've discussed this on the chat subgroup,
but I'll address it again here, as this topic has come up.

Gmail is a web app, and many individuals aren't used to, nor have they
learned how to interact with web apps. I recommend learning about web apps,
even if you choose not to use them, as they can make the use of many sites
much easier. Examples are Twitter, Facebook, Google Calendar, outlook.com,
Office 365 and Google Workspace, etc., etc. As a screen reader user myself,
I've been using the standard view of Gmail for years, and find that it
allows me to be quite productive, as much or more than many common mail
programs, for instance. While I provided technology training, I discovered
that web apps make students' lives easier in the long run as well, as they
are forced to learn, early on, about the various modes of screen readers
which, while potentially confusing, leads to a much better awareness of the
power of the screen reader. In addition, they will work with most any
screen reader and browser combination, and will do so without any setup,
thus making it much easier for individuals who need to transition to a new
version of an app, or a new computer. Gmail's web interface requires
keyboard shortcuts to be enabled for the first time. Once enabled, they
don't require enablement again. Any labels/folders created will always be
there, any preferences you set up, including signatures, will be there, so
on and so on.

While I completely understand that change is difficult, that Gmail's web
interface is different, that in some instances, you may prefer mail
programs for accomplishing a specific task, web apps don't have to be so
scary, and can be beneficial should you take the time to get accustomed to
using them. And, at the end of the day, if you learn them and don't like
them, go back to what you were using before. But you will have gained a
better awareness of how to interact with web apps, and how to interact
better with your screen reader.

And, to answer the question that started this thread: NVDA automatically
goes into focus mode and places you in the list of emails, similar to a
mail program. If any alerts appear on screen, you should hear them spoken
verbally. One such alerts is to enable notifications.

On Tue, Sep 27, 2022 at 3:59 PM Louise Pfau <louise.pfau@...> wrote:

Hi. Gmail appears to have just phased out the basic html view, so I have
to use the standard view now. I noticed that when I log in, NVDA is
automatically placed in focus mode, and the cursor is placed in the
conversation list. Is there a way to set NVDA to place the cursor at the
top of the page, so that you can see if there is other important
information? With the basic html view, that's how it worked. In my
opinion, the basic html view worked better with a screen reader.

Thanks,

Louise


--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

Check out and subscribe to BlindTechAdventures
<https://www.youtube.com/blindtechadventures> in podcast audio form on
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for the latest technology news.

Thank you, and have a great day!





Re: NVDA cursor automatically placed in conversations list in gMail standard view

Gene
 

It hasn't phased it out.  To use it without having to change it every time you log in, use this address instead of the regular Gmail address:
https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/h/

Gene
On 9/27/2022 5:59 PM, Louise Pfau wrote:

Hi.  Gmail appears to have just phased out the basic html view, so I have to use the standard view now.  I noticed that when I log in, NVDA is automatically placed in focus mode, and the cursor is placed in the conversation list.  Is there a way to set NVDA to place the cursor at the top of the page, so that you can see if there is other important information?  With the basic html view, that's how it worked.  In my opinion, the basic html view worked better with a screen reader.

Thanks,

Louise


Re: NVDA cursor automatically placed in conversations list in gMail standard view

Brian's Mail list account
 

I've completely given up on their webmail, not only is it a stupid decision, it seems for no good reason, but it all seems to have gone spongy, as if more javascript is behind it and its a devil of a job to type into reliably as it misses Keyes or repeats them in audio with varying delays.
I was always taught, if its not broken, don't fix it. It seems Google do not subscribe to that. I use a client again, using imap on the phone and pop3 on the pc.
I still think their implementation of email generally is Google specific in the way things get moved about. Its such a shame as they are one of the most reliable systems, server wise.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Cavanaugh" <cavbob1993@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2022 12:59 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA cursor automatically placed in conversations list in gMail standard view #addonrelease


For about a year now, Gmail has logged in to standard view by default, but you can still access the basic HTML view. You have to force focus mode, then hit shift tab to the top of the page and the button will be there to change the view. I wish they hadn’t gotten rid of the option to make basic HTML your default view though, I was able to do that for like four years before it suddenly changed one day.
On Sep 27, 2022, at 3:59 PM, Louise Pfau <louise.pfau@...> wrote:

Hi. Gmail appears to have just phased out the basic html view, so I have to use the standard view now. I noticed that when I log in, NVDA is automatically placed in focus mode, and the cursor is placed in the conversation list. Is there a way to set NVDA to place the cursor at the top of the page, so that you can see if there is other important information? With the basic html view, that's how it worked. In my opinion, the basic html view worked better with a screen reader.

Thanks,

Louise


Re: Assistance Needed - NVDA seems to be jumping around in documents

Brian's Mail list account
 

I don't think that is it, as he says its on several machines. I wonder if its a coincidence that it started with a certain version.

What document view is in use, ie are there any word settings that might change the behaviour.
Also, do these machines have mice connected, Anywhere near certain points in the screen, I've seen things jump, merely from vibration of a mouse.
I do think we need to know about Narrator though, as if that is doing similar things it has to be something installed on the machines. Perhaps something that steals focus at certain times. We would have no way to know that.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2022 7:35 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Assistance Needed - NVDA seems to be jumping around in documents


Does this occur when any other screen reader, e.g., Narrator or JAWS, is in use?

The symptoms scream an intermittently stuck key, and it could be one of several different keys.
--

Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Memory is a crazy woman that hoards rags and throws away food.

~ Austin O'Malley


Re: In fear over upggrading

Brian's Mail list account
 

I think you need to address the underlying cause here. In any new version with no add ons, it works, so that is a bit of a clue. Might I suggest that it could be an add on which is corrupt in some way or indeed may be just interacting with something else?
The fact that its doing it with an update seems to me to suggest the latter, as if it was an incompatible add on in itself, you would get a warning first. Unfortunately you have burned your bridges. Whenever I get something like this, I make a simple copy of the portable version and see that it runs, then update one, but not both of them. This way you can restore the working version quite simply, whether it be the installed or the portable one.
However in the end you need to identify what the culprit actually is.

Do one thing at a time and test, its the only really sure way to see what has happened, and do it on a portable version.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Howard Traxler" <htraxler7@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2022 5:58 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] In fear over upggrading


As I fearred: I installed the 22.2.3 and it won't start. I think I'll
have to make another portable like the one I'm running now.


On 9/27/2022 8:40 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Tue, Sep 27, 2022 at 09:15 AM, Howard Traxler wrote:

I wonder if an update will find that portable version to fix.

-
No. Portable versions are their own little world, entirely separate
from installed versions. As Gene has noted, you can update a portable
version within its own little world, but this is not how I read what
you're describing.

I would simply uninstall your installed version of NVDA, download the
new version's installer from the NVAccess site, and install that. If
you want a portable version of the latest version, you can either do
that with the installer before you actually install NVDA to your
system, or you can create it afterward from the freshly installed
instance of NVDA - your choice.
--

Brian - Virginia, USA- Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Memory is a crazy woman that hoards rags and throws away food.

~ Austin O'Malley





Re: apple.com

Brian's Mail list account
 

Its no different in Edge, I like Edge, but its often a bit illogical to me in the way it likes you to do stuff.
I have seldom had problems logging in to their site on any of the newer browsers myself. I guess it would be nice to get a bit more hand holding by detecting a screen reader and telling you what is expected, but a bit of trial and error seems to work.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Doc Wright godfearer" <godfearer@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2022 2:53 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] apple.com


I am using chrome and this happened in both windows 10 and 11. I have not tried it in firefox yet and edge just gives me a headache.

On 9/27/2022 8:15 AM, Jackie wrote:
Robert, what browser are you currently using, & which version of
Windows. Also, have you tried another browser to see if it behaves
similarly?

On 9/27/22, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
The page it takes me to when I hit the link for Manage Apple ID is:
https://appleid.apple.com

The only thing on that page that you're intended to interact with, really,
is the Sign-In button, at least if you already have an Apple account. The
rest is just information about what an Apple ID/Account is.
--

Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Memory is a crazy woman that hoards rags and throws away food.

~ Austin O'Malley





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Re: apple.com

Brian's Mail list account
 

Yes Edge. I don't think it really is an application the fact that only tab and select work is intended. You can brows the shop and all of that, but at some point you get thrown back to the Apple ID page and if you don't have one you can create one. At some point you seem to also get the lost your details section, which I did not try as I did not want to muck up my existing ID, no I think the restricted access at the start is intentional, and only what they want you to select are visible in tab, no cursoring as there is not really any point.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jackie" <abletec@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2022 3:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] apple.com


Hey Brian V--when you first go to the page, NVDA says "application".
Robert's right that you can't do anything there. I usually hit either
tab or the spacebar, but you're still stuck in a forms mode type
situation. NVDA + spacebar or escape gets you out of that & allows
arrow keys to work as expected. I don't know precisely what this
"application" is when the page comes up--I often see this same thing
in some video players, though that doesn't seem to be the case here.
I'm just curious how this behaves for a sighted user. It is a bit
weird, but by no means insurmountable. & this is w/both Firefox &
Chrome, Windows 10.

On 9/27/22, Jackie McBride <abletec@...> wrote:
Robert, what browser are you currently using, & which version of
Windows. Also, have you tried another browser to see if it behaves
similarly?

On 9/27/22, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
The page it takes me to when I hit the link for Manage Apple ID is:
https://appleid.apple.com

The only thing on that page that you're intended to interact with,
really,
is the Sign-In button, at least if you already have an Apple account.
The
rest is just information about what an Apple ID/Account is.
--

Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Memory is a crazy woman that hoards rags and throws away food.

~ Austin O'Malley






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The Inside Story of NVDA: does NVDA sleep after pressing NVDA+Shift+S/Z? Not really #NVDA_Internals

 

Hi,

The following Inside Story stems from the question posed in this thread: how does NVDA know to pass keyboard commands to the app while it is sleeping? The deeper question is, “is NVDA ‘sleeping’ when pressing NVDA+Shift+S/Z to toggle sleep mode?” The subject line gave the answer, and hopefully the below story should clarify as to why:

When you read the user guide, one of the commands you will come across is NVDA+Shift+S (laptop: NVDA+Shift+Z). This command toggles sleep mode where NVDA will not announce anything from the focused app, as well as passing keyboard commands to the application. But how? If you recall the Inside Story on NVDA components, NVDA consists of multiple parts, including input, output, event handling, and things in between, and parts of these components are turned off (not entered, technically) while NVDA is “sleeping” (notice the quotes, will explain shortly).

During normal business hours (when NVDA is not sleeping), NVDA will handle commands by itself or pass them to the application. First, after receiving a piece of keyboard input, NVDA converts what’s called “scan code” from the keyboard driver (as seen by Windows) to a form that NVDA can understand (typically to a string). Then, NVDA converts this into a gesture, which is then passed to input manager (inputCore.InputManager) which then runs the command associated with the gesture via “executeGesture” method (or function, if you will). The job of “execute gesture” routine is to figure out if there is a script for (bound to) the keyboard command you’ve entered, and if it does, it performs whatever you want NVDA to do; if not, it passes the keyboard input to the focused application unless NVDA is “taking a break” (or rather, you told NVDA to take a break a.k.a. sleep in the focused app).

In addition to keyboard commands, NVDA can react to events coming from the program. This is handled via “execute event” (eventHandler.executeEvent) routine where it checks various conditions to make sure it can react to whatever event it is handling at that moment. If the incoming event can be handled, NVDA then asks global plugins, app modules, tree interceptors, and NVDA objects (in that order) to handle current event in whatever shape or form, and this is where you will hear NVDA say something if any of the layers listed above tells the screen reader to do it.

But what happens when sleep mode is enabled, and if enabled, does it make NVDA “sleep”? The answer is no. Remember that whenever keyboard input is received by the screen reader, it wants to know if there is a command (script) associated with it. I did say that it will do something unless it is taking a break, and that happens to be checking a flag to see if NVDA should do nothing if the focused control and the app says, “go to sleep for now”. This attribute or a flag, called “sleepMode” (a true/false value) is defined in two places:

  1. NVDA object: a flag called NVDAObjects.NVDAObject.sleepMode tells NVDA to sleep while the control is focused. This flag is ultimately controlled by:
  2. App module: an app module can inform NVDA to sleep while it is being used (appModuleHandler.AppModule.sleepMode; does this flag seem familiar to some of you?).

Ultimately, sleep mode in NVDA depends on the sleep mode flag from the app module. The sleep mode toggle command goes something like this:

  1. NVDA+Shift+S/Z is pressed.
  2. Input manager realizes that there is a script associated with it, defined in global commands set as globalCommands.GlobalCommands.script_toggleCurrentAppSleepMode.
  3. At the script level, NVDA needs to know where you are at, so it fetches focused control and the app you are using (curFocus=api.getFocusObject(); curApp=curFocus.appModule).
  4. Checks sleep mode flag (if curApp.sleepMode), and if yes, it turns off sleep mode (curApp.sleepMode=False), says “sleep mode off” and performs a gain focus event (eventHandler.executeEvent("gainFocus",curFocus).
  5. If sleep mode is off to begin with (else), NVDA first performs a lose focus event (eventHandler.executeEvent("loseFocus",curFocus), enables sleep mode flag for the current app (curApp.sleepMode=True), then says “sleep mode on”.

What happens while NVDA is sleeping? From the input perspective:

  1. NVDA first checks if NVDA is frozen somehow (if watchdog.isAttemptingRecovery), and if yes, forgets the script (raise NoInputGestureAction), allowing NVDA to pass whatever keyboard command you have entered to the focused application.
  2. If a script is associated with the gesture (keyboard command, in this context; script = gesture.script), it checks where you are at (focus = api.getFocusObject()).
  3. It checks if sleep mode is on, either if the focused object says so (focus.sleepMode is focus.SLEEP_FULL) or the object and the apps says yes and the script is not supposed to be executed right now (focus.sleepMode and not getattr(script, 'allowInSleepMode', False))). The last part is a bit complicated as input gestures can inform NVDA that commands associated with it can be performed while in sleep mode (so far, sleep mode toggle command is the one people are most familiar with).
  4. If sleep mode is indeed on, NVDA will simply drop the gesture from itself and allow the focused app to handle it (raise NoInputGestureAction).

On the event handling side (somewhat tied to output):

  1. eventHandler.executeEvent is called, taking in the event (name) to be handled and where it is from (object).
  2. NVDA stays silent in the Windows lock screen (if objectBelowLockScreenAndWindowsIsLocked, taking a number of parameters).
  3. Otherwise, NVDA will find out if the event is coming from the focused control and a gain focus event is raised (isGainFocus = eventName == "gainFocus"), and if yes, it will check sleep mode flag (sleepMode=obj.sleepMode) and perform other preparations.
  4. If sleep mode is False, event executer (a Python generator) will be called, allowing various NVDA components to handle whatever event it has received, otherwise, NVDA will stay silent in the focused application.

I won’t go into output side of things (speech and braille) as it will touch NVDA Controller client (a DLL used by third-party applications to send speech and braille text to be announced by NVDA), but suffice to say that speech and braille announcements will be vetoed by NVDA if sleep mode is on for the focused application.

You may have noticed that sleep mode flag from app modules is what really makes NVDA do things or stay silent, more so when handling events. This is evident when you hear notifications from an app that is not the focused app (say, toast notifications) while sleep mode is active. This should answer a question I might come back to later: how can NVDA say things in the background? This is tied to event processing from foreground and background controls, more so when you think about background progress bar announcements (another time). For now, the key takeaway from this Inside Story is this: NVDA stays active even when you think it is sleeping as long as you don’t quit NVDA.

Hope this clarifies many things.

Cheers,

Joseph

P.S. The code fragment comes from latest NVDA alpha snapshot (master branch in NVDA source code).


Re: NVDA and Office 365 Specifically Microsoft Word Editing Problem

Quentin Christensen
 

Hi Richard,

I don't have anything to add other than all the suggestions from Brian, but I haven't seen any other reports of this, so I'll be curious to find out what it is too.

Could you get me a copy of your NVDA log to have a look at please, ideally at debug level?
Please send it attached to an email to info@....  Include a description of what you have done and what isn't working as it should (so I know what it's about in case I don't get to investigate today).

First of all, your NVDA key is either INSERT or CAPS LOCK, depending on how you have NVDA setup.  So, to set your log level:
1) Press NVDA+control+g to open the general settings
2) Press TAB until the focus is on 'Log level'
3) Press DOWN ARROW to get to 'Debug'
4) Press ENTER to close settings
5) Press NVDA+control+c to save settings.

To restart NVDA with add-ons disabled:
1) Press NVDA+Q
2) Down arrow to 'Restart with add-ons disabled'
3) Press ENTER

Next, recreate the issue - do whatever causes problems.

To get NVDA's log after that, there are several ways:

If NVDA is still running and usable:
1) Press NVDA+F1 to open the log viewer
2) Press CONTROL+A to select all.
3) Press CONTROL+C to copy.
4) Open your email and start a message to info@..., type a little about what you have done and what has happened in the body of the message, then leave a space and:
5) Press CONTROL+V to paste the copied log.

Instead of using the log viewer, or if NVDA has stopped and you needed to restart it or the computer:
1) Press WINDOWS+R to open Windows' Run dialog
2) Type %temp% and press ENTER (that's the percent sign, the letter t e m p and another percent sign).  Windows Explorer should open to the temporary folder.
3) Press TAB to move to the file list
4) Press N and move down to find up to three files:  nvda.log (the log file for the current or most recent NVDA session), nvda-old.log (the log from the previous session) and nvda-crash.dmp (a crash dump with more information created if NVDA itself crashes).
5) Depending on what email program you use, the steps will be different, but attach as many of those three files to an email to info@... as will be useful, and again in the body of the message describe a bit about what has happened.


On Thu, Sep 22, 2022 at 1:57 AM Richard Wells <richwels@...> wrote:

Thanks for your persistence on this. I will try more of this and report back.

On 9/21/2022 10:13 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Other things worth trying (on both systems):

1. Using DISM (Deployment Imaging Servicing and Management) and SFC (System File Checker) to Repair Windows 8, 10 & 11

2. Completely uninstalling NVDA and reinstalling it (this should not cause loss of add-ons or settings, unless you were to deliberately nuke these yourself).

3. A repair install on Microsoft 365.

You could flip-flop steps 1 and 2, but number three should remain the last thing if one or both of the first two don't result in a change.

It would also be interesting to know whether the update to Windows 11 22H2 fixed anything there even without trying the above noted steps.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

It is well to open one's mind but only as a preliminary to closing it . . . for the supreme act of judgment and selection.

       ~ Irving Babbitt



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Re: News – NV Access - NVDA 2022.2.3 Released #nvaccessnewsfeed

Quentin Christensen
 

Hi Russ,

Good suggestion.  I don't have any update on it, but we do have an issue on our tracker for features like this: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/9284

Do feel free to add any extra info to that issue or subscribe to it for future updates.

On Wed, Sep 21, 2022 at 4:37 AM Russell James <4rjames@...> wrote:
Thank you for the upgrade announcement.

I understand that you recommend restarting the computer after the upgrade completes.

I usually notice that things in the task bar stop speaking after the upgrade and they work properly again after restarting the computer.

With the increase in remote work driven by the pandemic, it sure would be nice to be able to update NVDA when using RDP to remote access other computers.

Russ

On Sun, Sep 18, 2022 at 10:14 PM Group Integration <nvda@nvda.groups.io> wrote:

NVDA 2022.2.3 Released

By Sean Budd

NV Access is pleased to announce that version 2022.2.3 of NVDA, the free screen reader for Microsoft Windows, is now available for download. This is a patch release to fix an accidental API breakage introduced in 2022.2.1, which broke compatibility with NVDA remote.

Please note that as this is a patch release, the “What’s new” text has not been translated for this release. Users running NVDA in languages other than English, accessing the “What’s new” text from the Help menu will show the latest version as 2022.2. The correct current version can always be found in the “About NVDA” dialog, available from the Help menu.

Important Note:

Please note, after updating any software, it is a good idea to restart the computer. Restart by going to the Shutdown dialog, selecting “restart” and pressing ENTER. Updating software can change files which are in use. This can lead to instability and strange behaviour which is resolved by rebooting. This is the first thing to try if you do notice anything odd after updating.

Links

Close-up photograph of NVDA logo in notification area.

Close-up photograph of NVDA logo in notification area.



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


locked Re: From the JFW User's list (yes, there is a direct NVDA tie in): How to stop jaws from interfering with an application's keyboard commands

 

On Wed, Sep 28, 2022 at 12:30 AM, Nimer Jaber wrote:
Not sure... It's typically not a great idea to run both simultaneously anyway.
-
Just to be clear, that's not what's being proposed.

And the claim appears to be that NVDA can be in "full normal output" mode while, at the same time, passing all sorts of things through (essentially, everything) to the underlying application.  Hence my description of it being a sort of speaking sleep.

I've never seen either NVDA or JAWS (or any screen reader on the Windows platform) behave in this way.  At this point, I've dismissed the entire premise since the questioner will not supply an exact example of what's in use for other people to test against.  You can't deal with claims like this as abstractions, and it is a "put up or shut up" kind of situation.  If you can't and won't tell others what, exactly, it is you're using and doing (and the underlying application in this case is said to be a game) then just go away.

I got pretty much precisely the answers I thought I would here, and they're entirely congruent with what I already know of the behavior of all screen readers I've ever touched.  Their place in the command processing hierarchy remains smack in the middle between the operating system and the application they're being used to access in all cases.
--

Brian Virginia, USA  Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Memory is a crazy woman that hoards rags and throws away food.

         ~ Austin O'Malley


locked Re: From the JFW User's list (yes, there is a direct NVDA tie in): How to stop jaws from interfering with an application's keyboard commands

 

Hi,

I think the closest is sleep mode attribute in app modules. The sleep mode toggle command (NVDA+Shift+S/Z) turns off input and output processing for the focused app only. You can verify this as follows:

  1. Open any app where you wish to toggle sleep mode.
  2. Press Control+NVDA+Z to open Python Console.
  3. Type the code fragment below (below tihs list). 4 Close Python Console.
  4. Enter sleep mode fro mthe current application.
  5. Turn off sleep mode after NVDA finishes spekaing something.

Code fragment from Python Console (type Enter after each line):

import wx n = wx.adv.NotificationMessage("test", "testing") wx.CallLater(5000, n.Show)

The above code fragment (sorry for the formatting) will let NVDA show a toast notification message five seconds after you press Enter on the last line. After pressing Enter on the last line, press Escape to close Python Console and activate sleep mode from the focused app within say, three seconds. You will then notice that NVDA goes to "sleep" from the focused app but announces the test message as toast notification comes from a different program.

Cheers,

Joseph


locked Re: From the JFW User's list (yes, there is a direct NVDA tie in): How to stop jaws from interfering with an application's keyboard commands

Nimer Jaber
 

There is a setting that *may* accomplish this, but I don't have a way of testing right now. That is the setting for passing keystrokes to the application. I believe that this has more to do with web keystrokes, just as the JAWS feature does, but it may be possible that NVDA passes keystrokes to JAWS because JAWS is running and JAWS steals the keystrokes? Not sure... It's typically not a great idea to run both simultaneously anyway.


On Tue, Sep 27, 2022 at 9:14 PM Quentin Christensen <quentin@...> wrote:
I'm not aware of such a mode either Brian....

NVDA+shift+s (or for laptop: NVDA+shift+z) puts NVDA into sleep mode, which "disables all NVDA commands and speech/braille output for the current application".

There is the NVDA+F2 pass through key which "Tells NVDA to pass the next key press straight through to the active application - even if it is normally treated as an NVDA key command" - that will then speak anything the command happens to do - but you need to press it for each keystroke.

If someone has a quirky hack to accomplish it, like plugging a second keyboard in, then I'd be interested as well, but I'm not aware of it.

Note: Plugging a second keyboard in, to my knowledge will not work - it will simply pass any keystrokes you press on it to the computer as normal - in fact, I just tried and you can even press a keystroke across two keyboards - I just held down ALT on my laptop keyboard and pressed TAB on my external keyboard and it switches windows.  Neat, but I can't think of a time I would use it.


On Wed, Sep 28, 2022 at 9:16 AM Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
Here is the topic:  
How to stop jaws from interfering with an application's keyboard commands

This is the claim I find incredibly confusing, and believe to be false, "Yeah it puts the synth to sleep as well, so no speech from the game using Jaws, which is why that option isn't always useful in my case. Some of you mentioned there's no way to pass all keystrokes through to the application using any screen reader, except for the fact that NVDA does exactly this, with no problems."

The individual asking this keeps claiming that NVDA can and does have a way (and not sleeping NVDA, but where NVDA still narrates/announces) where all keystrokes are passed through to the underlying application without any need to use the pass-through command nor with any NVDA actions being taken.  Kinda like a speaking sleep.

I have never seen or experienced any such mode, and unless I've taken leave of my senses it simply does not exist.  But I had to ask if anyone knows of any such mode and, if so, how one gets it activated, as it's certainly not the default mode.
--

Brian Virginia, USA  Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Memory is a crazy woman that hoards rags and throws away food.

         ~ Austin O'Malley



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager



--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

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