I am not making this comment because I think the essay should be changed.  But I think a slogan like equal access to technology, which sounds good and which you encounter often in terms of advocacy, is misleading and somewhat meaningless.  What is equal access?  You can't have equal access as a blind user because you are not accessing the technology in the same way and sight provides more information and faster when dealing with computer information if it is visual.  Obviously, I'm not talking about streaming something that is only audio content.  But a sighted person can look at a screen and find something much more quickly some of the time than a blind person can.  If a blind person is already familiar with an interface or knows enough what he/she is looking for, the person may find content as quickly or perhaps faster than a sighted person but there are many times when this is not the case and the blind person finds what is being looked for less efficiently.

I'm sure that, in an unfamiliar dialog, a sighted person can skim what is there and find what they are looking for, if they have an idea what they are looking for because of what they already know about how a certain type of program or dialog works, than a blind person who tabs and listens to field after field.  In a known and familiar dialog, the blind person, through use of shortcuts may do something as fast or faster than a sighted person.

And that brings up something else screen-readers are not.  They are not ways to enable you to use a program without putting in the time and work to learn enough about the interface to use it efficiently. 

Gene

On 9/18/2022 4:10 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]
[Reason: Terminology]

Hi all,

Before we actually get into talking about NVDA components, it is important to think about what a screen reader is and is not, as well as overall concepts (and the big picture) behind possibilities and constraints of screen readers. We also need to go over accessibility in relation to screen reading. Only then the rest of the Inside Story posts will make sense because the story begins and ends with defining the reality, possibilities, and constraints of screen reading technology (for anyone wishing to submit code contributions to NVDA project, you need to think about the overall social and cultural reality NVDA and its users are facing).

First, let’s talk about what a screen reader is not. A screen reader is not an operating system, nor the user interface for an operating system. It is not a “jack of all trades” productivity tool, nor the only way for blind people to use computers (although screen readers get lots of attention because they are one of the most familiar tools the society will see). A screen reader is not your accessibility advocate, nor designed to bring disability justice to everyone. Most importantly, a screen reader is not the million-dollar answer to everything in life, blindness, and accessibility. Shocking? I assume so (for most of us).

The truth is, I sometimes feel that a screen reader is one or more of the “nots” I listed. Folks on this forum encounter and live with screen readers 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 (or 366) days a year. And screen readers like NVDA are gaining more and more mainstream attention (do a Google search for the terms “accessibility” and “screen readers” and one of the results is an article from The Verge published not so long ago on the subject of screen reader history; the NVDA forum had an extensive talk about it a while back). We use screen readers in many places: schools, companies, accessibility testing, software development, or even as an example of progress of accessibility.

So what exactly is a screen reader? Among many Google searches, the common theme is that it is a program that helps blind people use computers by reading screen content. More specifically, a screen reader is a program that reads content the user is interacting with (or not). Sometimes the content is accessible and usable (both terms are important), while others are not, requiring tips and tricks to make them screen reader and user friendly. I will come back to what I just said in a moment.

In a more technical definition, a screen reader is an information processor that gathers, interprets, and presents information displayed on screen and provide ways to let blind users interact with the computer-based task at hand. Screen readers such as NVDA use facilities provided by the operating system (Microsoft Windows, in this case) and apps to gather information on the screen (and sometimes off-screen). Screen readers have rules and expectations about what the gathered information is and should be, and uses sophisticated rules to interpret what it has “seen” i.e. gathered with help from the operating system, the ap in question, and other ways. Based on information gathered and subsequently interpreted, screen readers use components such as text-to-speech (TTS), braille, and other output mechanisms to present screen content. I will address exactly which components are part of NVDA in the next Inside Story.

To illustrate the overall workings of a screen reader at the highest level (or not so high level), let us say that you open Notepad and type the letter “H”. On screen, the letter “H” is shown, and NVDA says “H” if speak typed characters is on (NVDA+number row 2). If a braille display is connected, it will show the letter “H” in braille (in Unified English Braille, it is dots 6 and then 125, or in this case, it could be dots 56, 6, then 125). But how can NVDA accomplish so much magic? Here’s how:

1. User types the letter “H”.
2. Windows realizes that something happened from the keyboard, so it tries to interpret what happened.
3. Windows sees that a character was entered and sees where the system focus is.
4. Windows sees that Notepad, a text editor is in use, so it displays the letter “H” on the screen.
5. At the same time, a helper called accessibility API notices this event and sees that a character was entered.
6. The accessibility API then tells whoever is listening (NVDA, in this case) that an input event occurred.
7. In turn, Notepad (app) realizes that an accessibility API is running, so it says to the accessibility API, “please raise a value change event so the screen reader can announce it to the user.”
8. In turn, the accessibility API raises value change event, which is then recognized by NVDA.
9. NVDA knows that a value change event has occurred, so it tries to find out what has changed, and eventually sees that a new character was entered.
10. NVDA then uses the configured speech synthesizer to inform the user that the letter “H” has been entered. This does not happen if the user says to NVDA, “don’t tell me typed characters.”

The steps listed above should provide just enough information to demonstrate the idea that a screen reader is, in essence, a sophisticated information processor: gathers, interprets, and presents information.

Going back to what I said above about accessible and inaccessible (and usable and unusable) content: what I outlined above may suggest that everything is accessible if things work out between the operating system, apps, and screen readers. This ignores the fact that screen readers are, believe it or not, workarounds to the current social and cultural conditions of computing, disability, accessibility, and usability. Remember one of the “nots” of screen readers: they are not accessibility advocates for you. Why? Think about the term “assistive technology”. What does it mean in practice? It means that computers, tablets, smartphones, and gadgets we live with are not designed with disability in mind, and screen readers came along to “fill” the gap for inaccessible and unusable computing. The history of screen readers is filled with slogans such as “equal access to technology”, “making things more productive”, “helping blind people get jobs” and others (the story of screen readers goes back decades, believe it or not).

The term “assistive technology”, at a first glance, is a positive definition for folks on this forum and elsewhere: tools to help you succeed in using computers to perform tasks. But on the flip side, it shows that, despite progress such as accessibility standards and novel approaches to provide “technological social justice” (disability emojis, for example), the world is still, for a lack of better word, unconcerned (or not educated enough or not fully aware of, perhaps) toward blind people. Screen readers exist precisely because they demonstrate the lack of consideration for the disabled when designing digital technologies, and as we will see in subsequent Inside Story of NVDA series, people like Mick Curran and others came up with workarounds upon workarounds to demonstrate the continued need for advocacy.

My statement that screen readers are workarounds should ring a bell for some of you. Not just because your life experiences are filled with accessibility advocacy, but also because it touches on one of my own mantras about accessibility and usability: mindset matters. Fixing inaccessible applications so it can become screen reader user friendly is just a micro-level solution. The steps I listed to demonstrate parts of NVDA internals came after years of advocacy by blind people, informing Microsoft that they need to do better (people who lived in the 1990’s should remember what I’m talking about). Accessibility standards and API’s are next level up in solving computing issues for screen reader users (by doing so, people and organizations writing standards are acknowledging the continued issues faced by disabled people thanks to larger social and cultural issues at hand). The fundamental issue, and the reason that NVDA is not the million-dollar answer to everything in life for screen reader users, is the perpetuation of ignorance by both sides of the coin: ignorance by the public (mainstream) that accessibility and usability matters in software design, and ignorance by screen reader users and disability advocacy organizations that we are a minority and must advocate continuously.

Putting all into context of NVDA, just because the screen reader is free and open-source does not mean equal access to technology is here at last. When you use NVDA or contribute code to the project, you are doing three things at once: shows dedication to the project, acknowledges the progress made in screen reading, and understands the effects of social and cultural attitude toward disability. The last one is the reality of screen reading as it stands in 2022: even if COVID-19 pandemic made us realize how screen readers are important for us, it also brought challenges such as inaccessible and unusable videoconferencing systems, unreadable online documents, and the notion that technology can solve world’s problems (it won’t, I think). When looking at NVDA from the big picture of accessibility and usability, it opens up possibilities and constraints. Possibilities because the code is out there so people can study and research it, and constraints as the same source code demonstrates the larger social and cultural issues faced by blind people. This is perhaps the biggest lesson I want readers to understand as we meet NVDA internals: screen readers such as NVDA represent the reality, possibilities, and constraints of people needing to use alternatives due to social and cultural attitudes. And throughout Insider Story series, I will highlight all three of them as much as possible.

Remember this: screen readers are not productivity tools, the solution to life’s problems, technological social justice, nor can advocate for users. As sophisticated information processors, screen readers represent the reality, possibilities, and constraints of disability in the form of technology. NVDA both shows the progress and waypoint toward accessibility and usability, and in extension, more need for disability advocacy. I want all of you to understand this, otherwise the rest of The Insider Story of NVDA will not make sense – not only I will take you on a journey on NVDA internals, but also help you contemplate a lot (for anyone wishing to contribute code to NVDA project, you must have the mindset that you are contributing to both the possibilities and constraints of accessibility and disability).

Next: NVDA screen reader components and/or any feature you would like me to cover (comments and topic suggestions are welcome).

Cheers,

Joseph

On Fri, Sep 23, 2022 at 09:19 AM, Tyler Spivey wrote:

What you can't do is select multiple addons and disable.

-
That's most likely what I requested then, as it is a grand PITA to do one-by-one if someone is using a lot of add-ons, and many people do.  I think I have somewhere around 10 installed.

But it would be really handy to be able to selectively disable a group of 5, then if the issue is not resolved, re-enable them and disable the second group of 5.  Lather, rinse, repeat by halves in the group where the issue keeps showing up until I've narrowed it down to "the one."
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

It is well to open one's mind but only as a preliminary to closing it . . . for the supreme act of judgment and selection.

       ~ Irving Babbitt

On Fri, Sep 23, 2022 at 02:27 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
The answer is a resounding yes - you can enable or disable
individual add-ons (one at a time).
-
I would love to know how this is done, as I even created a GitHub issue asking for this feature to be made a part of Add-Ons Manager.  I'd love to be able to do something akin to what's called a clean start under Windows where I can enable things "by halves" to determine which add-on specifically is causing a problem.  It's a much faster "search and destroy" method that doing one by one if you have a lot of add-ons active.
--
Brian -Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044
It is well to open one's mind but only as a preliminary to closing it . . . for the supreme act of judgment and selection.
~ Irving Babbitt

The person doing the video keeps repeating how natural the voices sound,
as though a natural sounding voice in and of itself is an extraordinary
achievement. We've had natural sounding voices for a long time. Having
natural sounding voices is common these days. Its other characteristics
of a lot of these voices that cause me to dislike them.

If the behavior of the voices using Edge is what you get when using them
in Windows 11, they currently have characteristics that would lead me to
not use the voices.

By far the most important one is the ridiculously long pauses at the
ends of sentences.
If this occurs in Narrator and not just in Edge, those long, long pauses
are maddening to the point where I wouldn't consider using the voices as
long as the pauses can't be adjusted by the user and greatly shortened.

Also, inflection is too high and there is a slight sing-songy quality to
the inflection.

The voices may be quite good if these defects are eliminated.

Do these problems exist when using the voices with Narrator? Those
interested in using these voices, if these problems exist when using
Narrator, and if you object to them, may wish to contact Microsoft about
them.

Gene
On 9/22/2022 10:12 PM, Gene via groups.io wrote:

This youtube video let's you hear at least a little of the voices, I
didn't listen to all of it so I don't know if more samples are
provided later. But the really important thing is that it tells you
how to hear them on any system using Edge.

You can have material more than just a short sample spoken.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdQitJEuyug

Gene
Gene

On 9/22/2022 8:30 PM, Şenolcan HANCI wrote:

Hello friends. As you know with Windows 11 22h2 new natural voices
are available, although for english USA for now. İ have a question.
To see these voices in NVDA, does Microsoft or NVDA developers should
take a step and can we do something for this

Windows için Posta <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>
ile gönderildi

I believe it will transfer all add-ons.

Whether the add-on will have to be authorized, I don't know. Since you
are placing the add-on in a copy you will use portably, and it is a
product you pay for, you may have to authorize it in the portable copy.

Open tools and press enter on create portable copy.
A dialog will open.
Tab around the dialog and you will find a check box that says something
like use current user configuration. Check it with the space bar, then
continue to create the portable copy.
Set up a folder with nothing in it before you begin to create the
portable copy and use it during creation. If you don't, the files will
be splattered all over whatever already used folder you select. The
portable installation should automatically make its own folder at
whatever location you are using, as happens when you unzip a file, but
it doesn't.

Gene
On 9/22/2022 6:15 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Thu, Sep 22, 2022 at 07:08 PM, Don H wrote:

Will this properly install addons such as the code factory
vocalizer addon? Wasn't there a way to move the settings from a
portable copy made from the old computer?

-
I don't know the answer to your first question, because I don't know
what Code Factory's licensing scheme is and what it checks (or
doesn't) in relation to the computer on which it's running. I can say
it will copy the add-on over in its entirety, but that doesn't mean
that it will work. Someone else will have to answer this, as I don't
own it.

Sarah has already referenced the ability to make a portable copy of
NVDA, including your add-ons when you do so, then using that portable
copy as as the install media on your new computer. I believe I recall
when you do that it will ask you if you wish to copy the
profile/settings/configuration associated with the portable copy to
the new installation, but I haven't done this in ages.
--

Brian -Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

It is well to open one's mind but only as a preliminary to closing it
. . . for the supreme act of judgment and selection.

~ Irving Babbitt

But long pouse in Microsoft edge is normal because these voices are working as online

 

Windows için Posta ile gönderildi

 

Kimden: Gene
Gönderilme: 23 Eylül 2022 Cuma 06:39
Kime: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Konu: Re: [nvda] NVDA and natural voices

 

The person doing the video keeps repeating how natural the voices sound, as though a natural sounding voice in and of itself is an extraordinary achievement.  We've had natural sounding voices for a long time.  Having natural sounding voices is common these days.  Its other characteristics of a lot of these voices that cause me to dislike them. 

If the behavior of the voices using Edge is what you get when using them in Windows 11, they currently have characteristics that would lead me to not use the voices. 

By far the most important one is the ridiculously long pauses at the ends of sentences. 
If this occurs in Narrator and not just in Edge, those long, long pauses are maddening to the point where I wouldn't consider using the voices as long as the pauses can't be adjusted by the user and greatly shortened. 

Also, inflection is too high and there is a slight sing-songy quality to the inflection. 

The voices may be quite good if these defects are eliminated. 

Do these problems exist when using the voices with Narrator?  Those interested in using these voices, if these problems exist when using Narrator, and if you object to them, may wish to contact Microsoft about them.

Gene

On 9/22/2022 10:12 PM, Gene via groups.io wrote:

This youtube video let's you hear at least a little of the voices, I didn't listen to all of it so I don't know if more samples are provided later.  But the really important thing is that it tells you how to hear them on any system using Edge. 

You can have material more than just a short sample spoken.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdQitJEuyug

Gene
Gene

On 9/22/2022 8:30 PM, Şenolcan HANCI wrote:

Hello friends. As you know with Windows 11 22h2 new natural voices are available, although for english USA for now. İ have a question. To see these voices in NVDA, does Microsoft or NVDA developers should take a step and can we do something for this

 

Windows için Posta ile gönderildi

 

 

 

 

Gene,

When using these voices in Narrator you definitely don’t have unnatural pauses at the end of each sentence. I understand your point of view in that we’ve had many human sounding voices for quite some time but, to me, human sounding doesn’t always mean that they sound natural. Some of the Nuance voices, while they sound human, have a quality about them that sounds unnatural and electronic and that odd nonhuman aspect isn’t as noticeable with these new voices. Then again, that’s just my perception and as I’m sure you’d agree a voice that may sound fabulous to my ear might sound jarring or problematic to yours.

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2022 11:39 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and natural voices

 

The person doing the video keeps repeating how natural the voices sound, as though a natural sounding voice in and of itself is an extraordinary achievement.  We've had natural sounding voices for a long time.  Having natural sounding voices is common these days.  Its other characteristics of a lot of these voices that cause me to dislike them. 

If the behavior of the voices using Edge is what you get when using them in Windows 11, they currently have characteristics that would lead me to not use the voices. 

By far the most important one is the ridiculously long pauses at the ends of sentences. 
If this occurs in Narrator and not just in Edge, those long, long pauses are maddening to the point where I wouldn't consider using the voices as long as the pauses can't be adjusted by the user and greatly shortened. 

Also, inflection is too high and there is a slight sing-songy quality to the inflection. 

The voices may be quite good if these defects are eliminated. 

Do these problems exist when using the voices with Narrator?  Those interested in using these voices, if these problems exist when using Narrator, and if you object to them, may wish to contact Microsoft about them.

Gene

On 9/22/2022 10:12 PM, Gene via groups.io wrote:

This youtube video let's you hear at least a little of the voices, I didn't listen to all of it so I don't know if more samples are provided later.  But the really important thing is that it tells you how to hear them on any system using Edge. 

You can have material more than just a short sample spoken.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdQitJEuyug

Gene
Gene

On 9/22/2022 8:30 PM, Şenolcan HANCI wrote:

Hello friends. As you know with Windows 11 22h2 new natural voices are available, although for english USA for now. İ have a question. To see these voices in NVDA, does Microsoft or NVDA developers should take a step and can we do something for this

 

Windows için Posta ile gönderildi

 

 

 

This youtube video let's you hear at least a little of the voices, I didn't listen to all of it so I don't know if more samples are provided later.  But the really important thing is that it tells you how to hear them on any system using Edge. 

You can have material more than just a short sample spoken.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdQitJEuyug

Gene
Gene

On 9/22/2022 8:30 PM, Şenolcan HANCI wrote:

Hello friends. As you know with Windows 11 22h2 new natural voices are available, although for english USA for now. İ have a question. To see these voices in NVDA, does Microsoft or NVDA developers should take a step and can we do something for this

 

Windows için Posta ile gönderildi

 

 

This youtube video let's you hear at least a little of the voices, I didn't listen to all of it so I don't know if more samples are provided later.  But the really important thing is that it tells you how to hear them on any system using Edge. 

You can have material more than just a short sample spoken.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdQitJEuyug

Gene
Gene

On 9/22/2022 8:30 PM, Şenolcan HANCI wrote:

Hello friends. As you know with Windows 11 22h2 new natural voices are available, although for english USA for now. İ have a question. To see these voices in NVDA, does Microsoft or NVDA developers should take a step and can we do something for this

 

Windows için Posta ile gönderildi

 

 

This youtube video let's you hear at least a little of the voices, I didn't listen to all of it so I don't know if more samples are provided later.  But the really important thing is that it tells you how to hear them on any system using Edge. 

You can have material more than just a short sample spoken.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdQitJEuyug

Gene
Gene

On 9/22/2022 8:30 PM, Şenolcan HANCI wrote:

Hello friends. As you know with Windows 11 22h2 new natural voices are available, although for english USA for now. İ have a question. To see these voices in NVDA, does Microsoft or NVDA developers should take a step and can we do something for this

 

Windows için Posta ile gönderildi

 

 

This youtube video let's you hear at least a little of the voices, I didn't listen to all of it so I don't know if more samples are provided later.  But the really important thing is that it tells you how to hear them on any system using Edge. 

You can have material more than just a short sample spoken.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdQitJEuyug

Gene
Gene

On 9/22/2022 8:30 PM, Şenolcan HANCI wrote:

Hello friends. As you know with Windows 11 22h2 new natural voices are available, although for english USA for now. İ have a question. To see these voices in NVDA, does Microsoft or NVDA developers should take a step and can we do something for this

 

Windows için Posta ile gönderildi

 

Hello friends. As you know with Windows 11 22h2 new natural voices are available, although for english USA for now. İ have a question. To see these voices in NVDA, does Microsoft or NVDA developers should take a step and can we do something for this

 

Windows için Posta ile gönderildi

 

On Thu, Sep 22, 2022 at 07:08 PM, Don H wrote:

Will this properly install addons such as the code factory vocalizer addon? Wasn't there a way to move the settings from a portable copy made from the old computer?

-
I don't know the answer to your first question, because I don't know what Code Factory's licensing scheme is and what it checks (or doesn't) in relation to the computer on which it's running.  I can say it will copy the add-on over in its entirety, but that doesn't mean that it will work.  Someone else will have to answer this, as I don't own it.

Sarah has already referenced the ability to make a portable copy of NVDA, including your add-ons when you do so, then using that portable copy as as the install media on your new computer.  I believe I recall when you do that it will ask you if you wish to copy the profile/settings/configuration associated with the portable copy to the new installation, but I haven't done this in ages.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

It is well to open one's mind but only as a preliminary to closing it . . . for the supreme act of judgment and selection.

       ~ Irving Babbitt