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Re: Links on websites with submenus and/or links that NVDA can't interact with
Robert Doc Wright godfearer
I just tested it with Opera web browser and it works fine. Why are there so many “skip navigation links”? ****** character is found in how you treat people who cannot do anything for you!
From: Sile via Groups.IoSent: Friday, November 8, 2019 1:17 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.ioSubject: Re: [nvda] Links on websites with submenus and/or links that NVDA can't interact with Hello, would anybody be willing to have a look at a webpage off-line for me. It’s having similar issues with drop-down boxes, but I don’t think it’s related to JavaScript. I’ve never seen this particular behavior before, so I just want to understand what’s going on. Sile > On Nov 7, 2019, at 9:10 PM, Joshua Tubbs <orin8722@...> wrote: > > Hmm. Were you using Chrome? > > I'll have to double check to see if JavaScript is on in Chrome. > > > >> On 11/6/19, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote: >> I just looked at the site with JAVA script on. I followed one of the links >> and it opened another page as a standard link does. I see that the site has >> a login place, and you didn't say if you did so. I didn't look enough to >> see if features are available if you log in that aren't otherwise, but the >> entire home page appears accessible to me. In addition, between each of the >> navigation links is a link that says skip navigation links. You really only >> need one but since someone put a skip link after every navigation link, that >> strongly implies to me that the site was designed to be accessible, even if >> this or that accomodation may be overdoing it. >> >> I'm not sure what accounts for your problems or if, given more information, >> we can see them. But just going to the site and looking around doesn't show >> me any. >> >> Gene >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> Hi all, >> >> I just visited the following website: >> >> http://canadianxpress.ca/ >> >> I notice that when going there, there is a number sign at the end of >> the address. There are multiple websites I've found like this, and >> each time I've encountered issues. >> On this particular site I believe the main links open up drop downs >> with additional links underneath the main one. Is there a way, whether >> via addons or other, to make this and other sites like this usable, >> short of contacting the webmaster who may or may not change the links >> to make them clickable? Jaws simply announces the links as mouse >> overs, but has the same result as NVDA. I've come across sites where >> to hover over content, you can simply activate object navigation and >> route the mouse cursor to the link in question and more information >> will be present. Not with this one, however... >> >> Any help would be appreciated. Tried switching browsers as well. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > >
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Re: Nvda and products Eset antivirus are already in order
Hi quentin,
Nvda now really works with Eset.
Here is an information from support in the Czech Republic.
colleagues inform me that their readers to test machines are
working, you need to have installed HIPS module in version 1374
(verifiable section updates) and import settings in the appendix
(in the Settings - Import).
I send you the file, that may be imported into the products Eset.
Jarek
Dne 08.11.2019 v 9:45 Quentin
Christensen napsal(a):
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Hi Jarek,
Does Eset work with NVDA now? I had someone ask
(elsewhere) about it, and when I approached Eset, they had no
idea and no interest in looking into it.
Hello
group Nvda,
Some months ago I wrote, that Eset antivirus doesn't work in
Nvda.
I would like to inform you, that it's already in older.
It is necessary have in Eset installed a module HIP, it is a
Screen Config
If any from you is an user of product Eset, do visit support
of Eset.
--
Jarek
--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager
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Re: Nvda and products Eset antivirus are already in order
Hi Jarek,
Does Eset work with NVDA now? I had someone ask (elsewhere) about it, and when I approached Eset, they had no idea and no interest in looking into it.
Hello group Nvda,
Some months ago I wrote, that Eset antivirus doesn't work in Nvda.
I would like to inform you, that it's already in older.
It is necessary have in Eset installed a module HIP, it is a Screen Config
If any from you is an user of product Eset, do visit support of Eset.
--
Jarek
-- Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager
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Jaffar Sidek <jaffar.sidek10@...>
O! And I tested it with NVDA. Cheers!
On 11/8/2019 4:28 PM, Jaffar Sidek
wrote:
toggle quoted message
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HI all. I actually have replaced Chrome with Opera as my
default browser and have no cause to regret my action. It is a
fast, efficient browser with a real effective ad blocker that
gets rid of ads that litter articles you want to read. While
chrome promotes those ads, Opera blocks them, allowing you to
get a smoother, uninterupted read of articles that interest you,
which also incidentally makes copying and pasting of articles or
snippets much easier. Years ago, Opera was hardly accessible.
Now, i think it beats the standard mainstream browsers any
time. They have, indeed, come a very long way. Cheers!
On 11/8/2019 2:32 PM, Bobby Vinton
wrote:
Well opera still updates and it is chrome based
On 11/8/2019 1:14 AM, Arlene wrote:
What? Opera browser
still exists? I’ve heard of it when I was on the jaws
list. Not the list that Debbi Scales ran. She was for
beginners and advancing users. I was on the list for
more advanced users. There was where I heard about the
Opera Browser. Can anybody use it? Or is it for more
advanced users where they do computer coding? Sorry for
the long message. I thought Opera was a thing of the
past.
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
i just tried it one time and it worked.
i dont remember which version i
installed.
On 11/8/19, Bobby Vinton <vinton.bobby5277@...>
wrote:
> Hay I was wondering if the opera
browser works with a screen reader such
> as nvda? just let me know and I
will try it
>
>
>
>
>
--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali
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Jaffar Sidek <jaffar.sidek10@...>
HI all. I actually have replaced Chrome with Opera as my default
browser and have no cause to regret my action. It is a fast,
efficient browser with a real effective ad blocker that gets rid
of ads that litter articles you want to read. While chrome
promotes those ads, Opera blocks them, allowing you to get a
smoother, uninterupted read of articles that interest you, which
also incidentally makes copying and pasting of articles or
snippets much easier. Years ago, Opera was hardly accessible.
Now, i think it beats the standard mainstream browsers any time.
They have, indeed, come a very long way. Cheers!
On 11/8/2019 2:32 PM, Bobby Vinton
wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Well opera still updates and it is chrome based
On 11/8/2019 1:14 AM, Arlene wrote:
What? Opera browser
still exists? I’ve heard of it when I was on the jaws
list. Not the list that Debbi Scales ran. She was for
beginners and advancing users. I was on the list for more
advanced users. There was where I heard about the Opera
Browser. Can anybody use it? Or is it for more advanced
users where they do computer coding? Sorry for the long
message. I thought Opera was a thing of the past.
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
i just tried it one time and it worked.
i dont remember which version i
installed.
On 11/8/19, Bobby Vinton <vinton.bobby5277@...>
wrote:
> Hay I was wondering if the opera
browser works with a screen reader such
> as nvda? just let me know and I
will try it
>
>
>
>
>
--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali
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Re: Links on websites with submenus and/or links that NVDA can't interact with
Hello, would anybody be willing to have a look at a webpage off-line for me. It’s having similar issues with drop-down boxes, but I don’t think it’s related to JavaScript.
I’ve never seen this particular behavior before, so I just want to understand what’s going on.
Sile
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Nov 7, 2019, at 9:10 PM, Joshua Tubbs <orin8722@...> wrote:
Hmm. Were you using Chrome?
I'll have to double check to see if JavaScript is on in Chrome.
On 11/6/19, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I just looked at the site with JAVA script on. I followed one of the links
and it opened another page as a standard link does. I see that the site has
a login place, and you didn't say if you did so. I didn't look enough to
see if features are available if you log in that aren't otherwise, but the
entire home page appears accessible to me. In addition, between each of the
navigation links is a link that says skip navigation links. You really only
need one but since someone put a skip link after every navigation link, that
strongly implies to me that the site was designed to be accessible, even if
this or that accomodation may be overdoing it.
I'm not sure what accounts for your problems or if, given more information,
we can see them. But just going to the site and looking around doesn't show
me any.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Hi all,
I just visited the following website:
http://canadianxpress.ca/
I notice that when going there, there is a number sign at the end of
the address. There are multiple websites I've found like this, and
each time I've encountered issues.
On this particular site I believe the main links open up drop downs
with additional links underneath the main one. Is there a way, whether
via addons or other, to make this and other sites like this usable,
short of contacting the webmaster who may or may not change the links
to make them clickable? Jaws simply announces the links as mouse
overs, but has the same result as NVDA. I've come across sites where
to hover over content, you can simply activate object navigation and
route the mouse cursor to the link in question and more information
will be present. Not with this one, however...
Any help would be appreciated. Tried switching browsers as well.
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Re: Quick default hot key question
PS, Tony, I just checked and actually I’m using NVDA in desktop mode on my laptop, because I always use an external keyboard.
Sile
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Show quoted text
On Nov 8, 2019, at 3:07 AM, Sile via Groups.Io <somodhrain@...> wrote:
Ah, that’s where the default hotkeys menu went :-) I’ve been looking for it for days…
Sile
On Nov 7, 2019, at 10:02 PM, Tony Malykh <anton.malykh@...> wrote:
By default AudioChart assigns NVDA+a shortcut in desktop layout and nvda+control+shift+a in laptop layout.
Is your NVDA running in Laptop layout?
In any case, you can always change default hotkeys in input gestures dialog in preferences menu.
--Tony
On 11/7/2019 8:56 AM, Sile via Groups.Io wrote:
Hello
The NVDA Audio Chart add-on for XL is set, by default, to the hotkey 'tab plus a'. This is also the key to read to end. Is there any way to change the audio chart hot key, or do I have to change the read-to-end hot key?
--Sile
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Nvda and products Eset antivirus are already in order
Hello group Nvda,
Some months ago I wrote, that Eset antivirus doesn't work in Nvda.
I would like to inform you, that it's already in older.
It is necessary have in Eset installed a module HIP, it is a Screen Config
If any from you is an user of product Eset, do visit support of Eset.
--
Jarek
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Re: Quick default hot key question
Ah, that’s where the default hotkeys menu went :-) I’ve been looking for it for days…
Sile
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Nov 7, 2019, at 10:02 PM, Tony Malykh <anton.malykh@...> wrote:
By default AudioChart assigns NVDA+a shortcut in desktop layout and nvda+control+shift+a in laptop layout.
Is your NVDA running in Laptop layout?
In any case, you can always change default hotkeys in input gestures dialog in preferences menu.
--Tony
On 11/7/2019 8:56 AM, Sile via Groups.Io wrote:
Hello
The NVDA Audio Chart add-on for XL is set, by default, to the hotkey 'tab plus a'. This is also the key to read to end. Is there any way to change the audio chart hot key, or do I have to change the read-to-end hot key?
--Sile
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Re: Quick default hot key question
Yes, S
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Nov 7, 2019, at 10:02 PM, Tony Malykh <anton.malykh@...> wrote:
By default AudioChart assigns NVDA+a shortcut in desktop layout and nvda+control+shift+a in laptop layout.
Is your NVDA running in Laptop layout?
In any case, you can always change default hotkeys in input gestures dialog in preferences menu.
--Tony
On 11/7/2019 8:56 AM, Sile via Groups.Io wrote:
Hello
The NVDA Audio Chart add-on for XL is set, by default, to the hotkey 'tab plus a'. This is also the key to read to end. Is there any way to change the audio chart hot key, or do I have to change the read-to-end hot key?
--Sile
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Re: NVDA adding and changing settings
On Fri, 8 Nov 2019, Quentin Christensen wrote: I copied part of an image, and NVDA simply reports the time (visually there's a thumbnail of what was copied). I tried copying a few cells out of an Excel
worksheet and it reads those on those clipboard. It doesn't seem to remember files - Maybe they just haven't added that yet? Personally, I doubt they ever will. Keep in mind what happens when you copy and paste files. The file's path is placed on the clipboard, not the file itself. When you paste it, a copy or move operation takes place. The clipboard doesn't actually know if you did a cut or copy, it just knows that a path arrived, was stored, and later was pasted. If you did a cut, that source path is no longer valid, so what would it show? If you did a copy, the source path could still potentially be valid, but if you switched removable drives since then, it might lead to a place that doesn't exist any more. Much easier to just not show anything for files, since odds are most of the time what is shown will be inaccurate. I suppose that they could just show the path that was copied and leave it at that, without letting you take any actions on it, but that seems like it would lead to more confusion for users who don't understand. Luke
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Re: how to copy more then one items and to keep them all in the clipboard in NVDA
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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Quentin Christensen
Sent: November 8, 2019 06:46
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] how to copy more then one items and to keep them all in the clipboard in NVDA NVDA doesn't have this out of the box, however there is a "Clip Contents Designer" add-on which will give you this functionality: https://addons.nvda-project.org/addons/clipContentsDesigner.en.html As a partly related aside, Windows 10 now has a clipboard history. Press WINDOWS+V and you select from recently copied items to paste. So you could select the first item, copy it, select the second item, copy it, and so on, then go to where you want to paste them, and press WINDOWS+V and paste each one by one. On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 2:37 PM Moty Azrad <motiaz@...> wrote: Hi all, I need to copy one item and after that to move to another area in the table and to copy another one, sometimes I need to copy six or more items and I need to these all information in the clipboard and after that I paste it to any document. With Jaws, it’s called: appended so I need the same thing in NVDA. Any help please Moti Moti Azrad Musician and Piano-Tuner motiaz@... azrad_moty@... Israel
-- Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager
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Re: NVDA adding and changing settings
On Fri, 8 Nov 2019, Quentin Christensen wrote: Re copy and paste etc, remember it's not just about being able to tell with relative confidence that something has occurred, but also how much effort it
takes to find that out. I know the add-on seems to work pretty well when I've used it, but maybe my machine is faster than average and my tolerance for
waiting for something to happen is greater. To elaborate on this: The issue is not that checking whether something happened is impossible. It's that there is no convenient windows-API method for doing this. The only real way to do it I know of, is to take a snapshot of the clipboard, and then when a copy/cut operation is supposed to have happened, compare what's there now with what was remembered. That could probably be done with checksumming, but it is all potentially a very expensive operation from a computational point of view, depending upon what is on the clipboard. That (sans checksumming) is how Clipspeak does it now. I don't know how Jaws does it, but that's how we have to do it. That's the real reason I believe they don't want it in core. For now, the functionality is available in an add-on. Yes it could be argued to bring it over to core, but then again, that would also take someone's time Only for now. Once 2019.3 hits, it won't be any more, unless someone takes the time to update the add-on to work with Python 3. That is a non-trivial task. I and maybe some others have considered doing that, but no results yet. (To any developer who wants to work on it, I have a repo just itching for pull requests, at https://github.com/XLTechie/clipspeak ). Luke
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Re: NVDA adding and changing settings
I don't think they will. When you copy a file
to the clipboard, I don't know what information is there, but its unlikely to be
information people would be interested in seeing, maybe some sort of command and
a file path but I'm just guessing. If you select twenty files, I don't
think people want to see a history that shows the information related to twenty
files, perhaps twenty paths.
How many NVDA users know that add-ons exist and how
to work with them? Is there any such information? I suspect that
less than half of users use add-ons, even if they know that such things
exist.
Gene
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
----- Original message -----
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2019 1:14 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing
settings
I copied part of an image, and NVDA simply reports the time
(visually there's a thumbnail of what was copied). I tried copying a few
cells out of an Excel worksheet and it reads those on those clipboard. It
doesn't seem to remember files - Maybe they just haven't added that
yet?
On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 5:50 PM Gene < gsasner@...> wrote:
But does the clipboard history only show text or
does it indicate entries for copying files.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing
settings
I didn't say you said that. You said and
this is a quote, for those with punctuation off, "Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting
when a document is saved is not something we would be inclined to add to NVDA
UNLESS we could be sure a document had been saved."
I see no evidence that copy, cut, and paste,
can't be definitely determined. I don't know what JAWS does or System
Access, nor do I know how the add-on monitors to determine when text is copied
and pasted. But the reason the developers didn't want to put a copy and
paste announcement in NVDA is because they said you can't tell when those
actions are done, which is incorrect. I'm saying that some how, when
this was being considered, the developers believed it couldn't be done and
that is stated in the Github (spelling) discussion.
A copy and paste announcement is a different case
from an e-mail sent announcement. In the e-mail case, you get an
indication from the program whether the message was sent. When you copy,
there is nothing that happens to confirm that you have done so. Without
such confirmation, very inconvenient things may occur. Suppose you are
copying or moving files. You issue the copy command, move fifteen
selected files, then issue the copy command after you have selected twenty
more files. You then paste in a different folder than the first
fifteen. Imagine the annoyance when you find you have copied the first
fifteen files over again. You then have the annoyance of having to
delete them, go back, copy the twenty files over again after you select them
again, then paste them again. The same thing could happen with
text.
You can't assume that even if you are careful and
know you have issued the copy command correctly, that it has worked. I
have exeecuted commands in the past that weren't carried out for some reason
and I had to execute the command twice. Before the add-on, I had
inconveniences such as I described above now and then. They could have
been avoided if the add-on had been available or if a copy and paste
announcement were built into NVDA. I consider this an important function
and it should be built into the screen-reader.
My experience is that the add-on is accurate, but
if others have experiences that it isn't as good as it ideally should be, then
that could be worked on.
But aside from my experience that the add-on
works well, my experience with JAWS, which I used for years before NVDA
existed, is that it is accurate. I'm saying that the premise on which
the function was rejected is incorrect.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 7:32 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing
settings
I didn't say you couldn't make an educational assumption about
when copying and pasting has taken place, and from what I've experienced, the
add-on does do an excellent job of this. What I meant by us not being
able to tell, was more that it would involve checking other things to
determine whether something has been copied etc, rather than having something
exposed from the program or Windows which states definitively "text has been
copied" (or how much, or whatever). The fact that the add-on does such a
good job of it, could be an argument to put forward a case for adding it to
NVDA core. My understanding is that this is basically how other screen
readers make the same assumptions about copying and pasting.
Re knowing when an email has been sent. In a way, it is the same
thing, because you don't get a message saying it has been sent, but you know
it has been sent because the draft email disappears when you give the
instruction to send it, and there's no error message. Theoretically,
NVDA could be made to give the user a message that the email had been
sent. You are right about teaching people to use those cues to know that
it has been sent, my point was simply that in my experience, if you haven't
got them familiar with the idea beforehand, probably the majority of people,
if you just instruct them how to write an email and what button to press to
send it, will immediately ask "did it send?" The merits of adding a
confirmation to reassure new users, vs only notifying when there is an error
could be debated either way, but that's the way it works, and largely, that is
the same for copying text.
We could do away with a lot of confirmation messages if we expect people
to understand what commands they are giving the computer and the ways they
behave. Or, we could add in a lot more confirmation messages if we want
to make computers more novice friendly. Is the current system
perfect? Probably not. Office, for instance, has changed to
automatically saving documents. Once you've saved a document once, in
Word 2003, if you write some more text, and then press ALT+F4, Word will ask
if you want to save the changes. Word 365 will have already saved your
changes and will simply close. Which way is correct? You could
argue either way - and in fact, in the Office 365 model currenly, you NEVER
get a confirmation your document has been saved. But you can infer it by
reading the title bar (for the purpose of the conversation, disregard the bug
that currently prevents getting that information) and by the fact that you
don't get prompted to save when you try to close Word.
On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 10:48 AM Gene < gsasner@...>
wrote:
If an e-mail has been sent, the window closes
and you are automatically placed where you were before you wrote, replied,
to, or forwarded a message. If a message isn't able to be sent, the
program opens an error window which gains focus and you can't miss it.
Therefore, a sent announcement is unnecessary and presents no information
that isn't obvious if you instruct the person in what to look for.
Also, learning how to derive information from context and behavior is
important. You won't always have someone explaining everything in
every program and every new program.
But since you clearly indicate that sighted
people get information when saving an already saved document again, this is
a case where the screen-reader isn't presenting information that would be
useful and that can't conveniently be inferred, as in the case of
e-mail.
And the idea that the developers got somehow
that it can't be determined when copying and pasting take place is just
plain wrong. it isn't even debateable, it’s a matter of fact.
JAWS knows when, and System Access knows when. I have specifically
seen instances when copying didn't take place and no erroneous report was
made. I don't know how this myth that the developers persist in
believing got started but it has never been true.
Also, the NVDA add-on tells me accurately when
copying and pasting takes place. The person who wrote the add-on
believes that it doesn't for some reason but I've been using it almost daily
since it came out and I've almost never seen it make a mistake.
I'm making a point of this because, since this
can be accurately determined, it should be incorporated into NVDA and not
left to an add-on, which a lot of people will never know exist.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing
settings
Just chiming in to give the visual perspective:
In Notepad, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, the "Save as" dialog
appears and NVDA reports that.
- If the document has been saved previously, Notepad saves it, and NVDA
does not say anything (unless you have speak command keys on, in which case
NVDA reports "control+s"). Notepad does put an asterisk at the start
of the filename in the title bar when a document has been edited. This
disappears when the document is saved. NVDA does read this asterisk
when reading the title bar.
In Word 365, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, a "Save this file" window
appears and NVDA reports that.
- If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is enabled,
nothing happens and NVDA does not report anything (again unless speak
command keys is on to report "control+s"). With AutoSave on, the
document is saved every time any key is pressed so control+s is not
needed.
- If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is not
enabled, the visual response is again subtle. When you open a
document, or save it, the title bar notes "Filename - Saved". Once you
change it, the "Saved" disappears. This gets reinstated when you save
it. There is currently a known issue, I believe with the way Office is
exposing the title bar. See: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10150
Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting when a document
is saved is not something we would be inclined to add to NVDA UNLESS we
could be sure a document had been saved. I can see the usefulness of
the functionality for some users (it reminds me of how when teaching email,
people often want confirmation that the email has been sent, but many email
clients don't give that). For this reason, I would recommend it might
be useful functionality for an add-on. Possibly Damien Garwood,
developer of the ClipSpeak add-on, might be interested in adding it.
Kind regards
Quentin.
On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 6:14 AM Gene < gsasner@...>
wrote:
I checked, and the settings you are
discussing are checked by default. So people should hear this
message in general.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing
settings
It should be spoken and if it isn't without
changing NVDA settings, the problem should be corrected.
Perhaps this is a problem
using NVDA in Windows 10. The message is spoken in Windows 7.
Gene
----- Original Message
-----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing
settings
Hi
If it is the message he wants to hear even though it is not spoken when
in note pad and do the alt key + f4 key and get the message do you want to
save which is not spoken.
he can do the following in nvdas settings under simple review cursor
make sure it is checked and make sure simple review mode is checked.
If i want to hear the message when it comes up and says cancel save etc
and it is not spoken out which does not worry me I can use object
navigation to hear it in this case it is the nvda key + 6 on the numeric
keypad then use nvda key + 4 tto go back to where the buttons are and save
that way.
Some of the material that is not read out can be accessed with object
navigation like this example.
If a document is already saved I do not need to hear it has been saved
as I know it has been.
Gene nz
On 8/11/2019 7:40 am, Gene wrote:
Window-eyes says that because it is told by
the developers, to say that word when that key combination is
pressed. it isn't analyzing an action by the word processor or
text editor to know if a document was saved. It is just saying the
word. That is bad design and Window-eyes probably says other
things because the screen-reader is programmed to do so just because a
certain key combination is pressed.
Frankly, you are worrying excessively about
almost nothing. As I said, if you issue the save command twice, it
is almost 100 percent certain that the document has been saved.
And to emphasize the point, all this time, you were saving documents and
relying on Window-eyes to tell you that they were saved when actually,
all it was doing was saying the word saved because it was programmed to
when you pressed that combination. But that shows how reliably
your documents were being saved.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing
settings
FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the
control-s command it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is
helpful. Another thought that occured to me is to go to the file name in
the subdirectory and check the date and time last saved, especially if i
want to continue editing the document.
Listening for His
shout!
Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa
DOS
-- ![Image NVDA
certified expert]()
--
Quentin
Christensen
Training and Support Manager
--
Quentin
Christensen
Training and Support Manager
--
Quentin
Christensen
Training and Support Manager
|
|
|
Re: NVDA adding and changing settings
I copied part of an image, and NVDA simply reports the time (visually there's a thumbnail of what was copied). I tried copying a few cells out of an Excel worksheet and it reads those on those clipboard. It doesn't seem to remember files - Maybe they just haven't added that yet?
On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 5:50 PM Gene < gsasner@...> wrote:
But does the clipboard history only show text or
does it indicate entries for copying files.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing
settings
I didn't say you said that. You said and this
is a quote, for those with punctuation off, "Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting
when a document is saved is not something we would be inclined to add to NVDA
UNLESS we could be sure a document had been saved."
I see no evidence that copy, cut, and paste, can't
be definitely determined. I don't know what JAWS does or System Access,
nor do I know how the add-on monitors to determine when text is copied and
pasted. But the reason the developers didn't want to put a copy and paste
announcement in NVDA is because they said you can't tell when those actions are
done, which is incorrect. I'm saying that some how, when this was being
considered, the developers believed it couldn't be done and that is stated in
the Github (spelling) discussion.
A copy and paste announcement is a different case
from an e-mail sent announcement. In the e-mail case, you get an
indication from the program whether the message was sent. When you copy,
there is nothing that happens to confirm that you have done so. Without
such confirmation, very inconvenient things may occur. Suppose you are
copying or moving files. You issue the copy command, move fifteen selected
files, then issue the copy command after you have selected twenty more
files. You then paste in a different folder than the first fifteen.
Imagine the annoyance when you find you have copied the first fifteen files over
again. You then have the annoyance of having to delete them, go back, copy
the twenty files over again after you select them again, then paste them
again. The same thing could happen with text.
You can't assume that even if you are careful and
know you have issued the copy command correctly, that it has worked. I
have exeecuted commands in the past that weren't carried out for some reason and
I had to execute the command twice. Before the add-on, I had
inconveniences such as I described above now and then. They could have
been avoided if the add-on had been available or if a copy and paste
announcement were built into NVDA. I consider this an important function
and it should be built into the screen-reader.
My experience is that the add-on is accurate, but
if others have experiences that it isn't as good as it ideally should be, then
that could be worked on.
But aside from my experience that the add-on works
well, my experience with JAWS, which I used for years before NVDA existed, is
that it is accurate. I'm saying that the premise on which the function was
rejected is incorrect.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 7:32 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing
settings
I didn't say you couldn't make an educational assumption about when
copying and pasting has taken place, and from what I've experienced, the add-on
does do an excellent job of this. What I meant by us not being able to
tell, was more that it would involve checking other things to determine whether
something has been copied etc, rather than having something exposed from the
program or Windows which states definitively "text has been copied" (or how
much, or whatever). The fact that the add-on does such a good job of it,
could be an argument to put forward a case for adding it to NVDA core. My
understanding is that this is basically how other screen readers make the same
assumptions about copying and pasting.
Re knowing when an email has been sent. In a way, it is the same
thing, because you don't get a message saying it has been sent, but you know it
has been sent because the draft email disappears when you give the instruction
to send it, and there's no error message. Theoretically, NVDA could be
made to give the user a message that the email had been sent. You are
right about teaching people to use those cues to know that it has been sent, my
point was simply that in my experience, if you haven't got them familiar with
the idea beforehand, probably the majority of people, if you just instruct them
how to write an email and what button to press to send it, will immediately ask
"did it send?" The merits of adding a confirmation to reassure new users,
vs only notifying when there is an error could be debated either way, but that's
the way it works, and largely, that is the same for copying text.
We could do away with a lot of confirmation messages if we expect people to
understand what commands they are giving the computer and the ways they
behave. Or, we could add in a lot more confirmation messages if we want to
make computers more novice friendly. Is the current system perfect?
Probably not. Office, for instance, has changed to automatically saving
documents. Once you've saved a document once, in Word 2003, if you write
some more text, and then press ALT+F4, Word will ask if you want to save the
changes. Word 365 will have already saved your changes and will simply
close. Which way is correct? You could argue either way - and in
fact, in the Office 365 model currenly, you NEVER get a confirmation your
document has been saved. But you can infer it by reading the title bar
(for the purpose of the conversation, disregard the bug that currently prevents
getting that information) and by the fact that you don't get prompted to save
when you try to close Word.
On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 10:48 AM Gene < gsasner@...> wrote:
If an e-mail has been sent, the window closes and
you are automatically placed where you were before you wrote, replied, to, or
forwarded a message. If a message isn't able to be sent, the program
opens an error window which gains focus and you can't miss it.
Therefore, a sent announcement is unnecessary and presents no information that
isn't obvious if you instruct the person in what to look for. Also,
learning how to derive information from context and behavior is
important. You won't always have someone explaining everything in every
program and every new program.
But since you clearly indicate that sighted
people get information when saving an already saved document again, this is a
case where the screen-reader isn't presenting information that would be useful
and that can't conveniently be inferred, as in the case of e-mail.
And the idea that the developers got somehow that
it can't be determined when copying and pasting take place is just plain
wrong. it isn't even debateable, it’s a matter of fact. JAWS knows
when, and System Access knows when. I have specifically seen instances
when copying didn't take place and no erroneous report was made. I don't
know how this myth that the developers persist in believing got started but it
has never been true.
Also, the NVDA add-on tells me accurately when
copying and pasting takes place. The person who wrote the add-on
believes that it doesn't for some reason but I've been using it almost daily
since it came out and I've almost never seen it make a mistake.
I'm making a point of this because, since this
can be accurately determined, it should be incorporated into NVDA and not left
to an add-on, which a lot of people will never know exist.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing
settings
Just chiming in to give the visual perspective:
In Notepad, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, the "Save as" dialog appears
and NVDA reports that.
- If the document has been saved previously, Notepad saves it, and NVDA
does not say anything (unless you have speak command keys on, in which case
NVDA reports "control+s"). Notepad does put an asterisk at the start of
the filename in the title bar when a document has been edited. This
disappears when the document is saved. NVDA does read this asterisk when
reading the title bar.
In Word 365, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, a "Save this file" window
appears and NVDA reports that.
- If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is enabled,
nothing happens and NVDA does not report anything (again unless speak command
keys is on to report "control+s"). With AutoSave on, the document is
saved every time any key is pressed so control+s is not needed.
- If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is not
enabled, the visual response is again subtle. When you open a document,
or save it, the title bar notes "Filename - Saved". Once you change it,
the "Saved" disappears. This gets reinstated when you save it.
There is currently a known issue, I believe with the way Office is exposing
the title bar. See: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10150
Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting when a document is
saved is not something we would be inclined to add to NVDA UNLESS we could be
sure a document had been saved. I can see the usefulness of the
functionality for some users (it reminds me of how when teaching email, people
often want confirmation that the email has been sent, but many email clients
don't give that). For this reason, I would recommend it might be useful
functionality for an add-on. Possibly Damien Garwood, developer of the
ClipSpeak add-on, might be interested in adding it.
Kind regards
Quentin.
On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 6:14 AM Gene < gsasner@...>
wrote:
I checked, and the settings you are discussing
are checked by default. So people should hear this message in
general.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing
settings
It should be spoken and if it isn't without
changing NVDA settings, the problem should be corrected.
Perhaps this is a problem
using NVDA in Windows 10. The message is spoken in Windows 7.
Gene
----- Original Message
-----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing
settings
Hi
If it is the message he wants to hear even though it is not spoken when
in note pad and do the alt key + f4 key and get the message do you want to
save which is not spoken.
he can do the following in nvdas settings under simple review cursor make
sure it is checked and make sure simple review mode is checked.
If i want to hear the message when it comes up and says cancel save etc
and it is not spoken out which does not worry me I can use object navigation
to hear it in this case it is the nvda key + 6 on the numeric keypad then
use nvda key + 4 tto go back to where the buttons are and save that way.
Some of the material that is not read out can be accessed with object
navigation like this example.
If a document is already saved I do not need to hear it has been saved as
I know it has been.
Gene nz
On 8/11/2019 7:40 am, Gene wrote:
Window-eyes says that because it is told by
the developers, to say that word when that key combination is
pressed. it isn't analyzing an action by the word processor or text
editor to know if a document was saved. It is just saying the
word. That is bad design and Window-eyes probably says other things
because the screen-reader is programmed to do so just because a certain
key combination is pressed.
Frankly, you are worrying excessively about
almost nothing. As I said, if you issue the save command twice, it
is almost 100 percent certain that the document has been saved. And
to emphasize the point, all this time, you were saving documents and
relying on Window-eyes to tell you that they were saved when actually, all
it was doing was saying the word saved because it was programmed to when
you pressed that combination. But that shows how reliably your
documents were being saved.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing
settings
FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s
command it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is helpful. Another
thought that occured to me is to go to the file name in the subdirectory
and check the date and time last saved, especially if i want to continue
editing the document.
Listening for His
shout!
Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa
DOS
-- ![Image NVDA
certified expert]()
--
Quentin
Christensen
Training and Support Manager
--
Quentin
Christensen
Training and Support Manager
-- Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager
|
|
|
Re: NVDA adding and changing settings
Hello,
Microsoft Office has an option to give sound feedback for certain
events. That includes when manually saving a document (I don't know
about the automatic save case). In newer versions of Office (I think
- Office 365) you just need to open the options for the respective
Office program, go to the "Accessibility" category and enable the
option about sound feedback. Then, from a combo box, you can choose
the sound scheme to use for the sound alerts. In earlier versions of
Office the option was in another category and you have to separately
download and install the Office sound pack from Microsoft's website.
______
Best wishes,
Kostadin Kolev
На 8.11.2019 г. в 3:32, Quentin
Christensen написа:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I didn't say you couldn't make an educational
assumption about when copying and pasting has taken place, and
from what I've experienced, the add-on does do an excellent job
of this. What I meant by us not being able to tell, was more
that it would involve checking other things to determine whether
something has been copied etc, rather than having something
exposed from the program or Windows which states definitively
"text has been copied" (or how much, or whatever). The fact
that the add-on does such a good job of it, could be an argument
to put forward a case for adding it to NVDA core. My
understanding is that this is basically how other screen readers
make the same assumptions about copying and pasting.
Re knowing when an email has been sent. In a way, it is
the same thing, because you don't get a message saying it has
been sent, but you know it has been sent because the draft
email disappears when you give the instruction to send it, and
there's no error message. Theoretically, NVDA could be made
to give the user a message that the email had been sent. You
are right about teaching people to use those cues to know that
it has been sent, my point was simply that in my experience,
if you haven't got them familiar with the idea beforehand,
probably the majority of people, if you just instruct them how
to write an email and what button to press to send it, will
immediately ask "did it send?" The merits of adding a
confirmation to reassure new users, vs only notifying when
there is an error could be debated either way, but that's the
way it works, and largely, that is the same for copying text.
We could do away with a lot of confirmation messages if we
expect people to understand what commands they are giving the
computer and the ways they behave. Or, we could add in a lot
more confirmation messages if we want to make computers more
novice friendly. Is the current system perfect? Probably
not. Office, for instance, has changed to automatically
saving documents. Once you've saved a document once, in Word
2003, if you write some more text, and then press ALT+F4, Word
will ask if you want to save the changes. Word 365 will have
already saved your changes and will simply close. Which way
is correct? You could argue either way - and in fact, in the
Office 365 model currenly, you NEVER get a confirmation your
document has been saved. But you can infer it by reading the
title bar (for the purpose of the conversation, disregard the
bug that currently prevents getting that information) and by
the fact that you don't get prompted to save when you try to
close Word.
On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 10:48
AM Gene < gsasner@...> wrote:
If an e-mail has been sent,
the window closes and you are automatically placed where
you were before you wrote, replied, to, or forwarded a
message. If a message isn't able to be sent, the
program opens an error window which gains focus and you
can't miss it. Therefore, a sent announcement is
unnecessary and presents no information that isn't
obvious if you instruct the person in what to look for.
Also, learning how to derive information from context
and behavior is important. You won't always have
someone explaining everything in every program and every
new program.
But since you clearly
indicate that sighted people get information when saving
an already saved document again, this is a case where
the screen-reader isn't presenting information that
would be useful and that can't conveniently be inferred,
as in the case of e-mail.
And the idea that the
developers got somehow that it can't be determined when
copying and pasting take place is just plain wrong. it
isn't even debateable, it’s a matter of fact. JAWS
knows when, and System Access knows when. I have
specifically seen instances when copying didn't take
place and no erroneous report was made. I don't know
how this myth that the developers persist in believing
got started but it has never been true.
Also, the NVDA add-on tells
me accurately when copying and pasting takes place. The
person who wrote the add-on believes that it doesn't for
some reason but I've been using it almost daily since it
came out and I've almost never seen it make a mistake.
I'm making a point of this
because, since this can be accurately determined, it
should be incorporated into NVDA and not left to an
add-on, which a lot of people will never know exist.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing
settings
Just chiming in to give the visual
perspective:
In Notepad, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, the
"Save as" dialog appears and NVDA reports that.
- If the document has been saved previously, Notepad
saves it, and NVDA does not say anything (unless you
have speak command keys on, in which case NVDA reports
"control+s"). Notepad does put an asterisk at the start
of the filename in the title bar when a document has
been edited. This disappears when the document is
saved. NVDA does read this asterisk when reading the
title bar.
In Word 365, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, a "Save
this file" window appears and NVDA reports that.
- If the document has been saved previously and
"AutoSave" is enabled, nothing happens and NVDA does not
report anything (again unless speak command keys is on
to report "control+s"). With AutoSave on, the document
is saved every time any key is pressed so control+s is
not needed.
- If the document has been saved previously and
"AutoSave" is not enabled, the visual response is again
subtle. When you open a document, or save it, the title
bar notes "Filename - Saved". Once you change it, the
"Saved" disappears. This gets reinstated when you save
it. There is currently a known issue, I believe with
the way Office is exposing the title bar. See: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10150
Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted,
reporting when a document is saved is not something we
would be inclined to add to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure
a document had been saved. I can see the usefulness of
the functionality for some users (it reminds me of how
when teaching email, people often want confirmation that
the email has been sent, but many email clients don't
give that). For this reason, I would recommend it might
be useful functionality for an add-on. Possibly Damien
Garwood, developer of the ClipSpeak add-on, might be
interested in adding it.
Kind regards
Quentin.
On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at
6:14 AM Gene < gsasner@...>
wrote:
I checked, and the
settings you are discussing are checked by
default. So people should hear this message in
general.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:08
PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and
changing settings
It should be spoken
and if it isn't without changing NVDA settings,
the problem should be corrected.
Perhaps
this is a problem using NVDA in Windows 10. The
message is spoken in Windows 7.
Gene
-----
Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:02
PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and
changing settings
Hi
If it is the message he wants to hear even though
it is not spoken when in note pad and do the alt key
+ f4 key and get the message do you want to save
which is not spoken.
he can do the following in nvdas settings under
simple review cursor make sure it is checked and
make sure simple review mode is checked.
If i want to hear the message when it comes up and
says cancel save etc and it is not spoken out which
does not worry me I can use object navigation to
hear it in this case it is the nvda key + 6 on the
numeric keypad then use nvda key + 4 tto go back to
where the buttons are and save that way.
Some of the material that is not read out can be
accessed with object navigation like this example.
If a document is already saved I do not need to
hear it has been saved as I know it has been.
Gene nz
On 8/11/2019 7:40 am, Gene wrote:
Window-eyes says
that because it is told by the developers, to
say that word when that key combination is
pressed. it isn't analyzing an action by the
word processor or text editor to know if a
document was saved. It is just saying the
word. That is bad design and Window-eyes
probably says other things because the
screen-reader is programmed to do so just
because a certain key combination is pressed.
Frankly, you are
worrying excessively about almost nothing. As I
said, if you issue the save command twice, it is
almost 100 percent certain that the document has
been saved. And to emphasize the point, all
this time, you were saving documents and relying
on Window-eyes to tell you that they were saved
when actually, all it was doing was saying the
word saved because it was programmed to when you
pressed that combination. But that shows how
reliably your documents were being saved.
Gene
----- Original Message
-----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019
12:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and
changing settings
FYI: In Window-Eyes
when pressing the control-s command it
does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4
command is helpful. Another thought that
occured to me is to go to the file name in
the subdirectory and check the date and
time last saved, especially if i want to
continue editing the document.
Listening for His shout!
Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS
--
![Image NVDA certified expert]()
--
Quentin
Christensen
Training and Support Manager
--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager
|
|
|
Re: NVDA adding and changing settings
But does the clipboard history only show text or
does it indicate entries for copying files.
Gene
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing
settings
I didn't say you said that. You said and this
is a quote, for those with punctuation off, "Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting
when a document is saved is not something we would be inclined to add to NVDA
UNLESS we could be sure a document had been saved."
I see no evidence that copy, cut, and paste, can't
be definitely determined. I don't know what JAWS does or System Access,
nor do I know how the add-on monitors to determine when text is copied and
pasted. But the reason the developers didn't want to put a copy and paste
announcement in NVDA is because they said you can't tell when those actions are
done, which is incorrect. I'm saying that some how, when this was being
considered, the developers believed it couldn't be done and that is stated in
the Github (spelling) discussion.
A copy and paste announcement is a different case
from an e-mail sent announcement. In the e-mail case, you get an
indication from the program whether the message was sent. When you copy,
there is nothing that happens to confirm that you have done so. Without
such confirmation, very inconvenient things may occur. Suppose you are
copying or moving files. You issue the copy command, move fifteen selected
files, then issue the copy command after you have selected twenty more
files. You then paste in a different folder than the first fifteen.
Imagine the annoyance when you find you have copied the first fifteen files over
again. You then have the annoyance of having to delete them, go back, copy
the twenty files over again after you select them again, then paste them
again. The same thing could happen with text.
You can't assume that even if you are careful and
know you have issued the copy command correctly, that it has worked. I
have exeecuted commands in the past that weren't carried out for some reason and
I had to execute the command twice. Before the add-on, I had
inconveniences such as I described above now and then. They could have
been avoided if the add-on had been available or if a copy and paste
announcement were built into NVDA. I consider this an important function
and it should be built into the screen-reader.
My experience is that the add-on is accurate, but
if others have experiences that it isn't as good as it ideally should be, then
that could be worked on.
But aside from my experience that the add-on works
well, my experience with JAWS, which I used for years before NVDA existed, is
that it is accurate. I'm saying that the premise on which the function was
rejected is incorrect.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 7:32 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing
settings
I didn't say you couldn't make an educational assumption about when
copying and pasting has taken place, and from what I've experienced, the add-on
does do an excellent job of this. What I meant by us not being able to
tell, was more that it would involve checking other things to determine whether
something has been copied etc, rather than having something exposed from the
program or Windows which states definitively "text has been copied" (or how
much, or whatever). The fact that the add-on does such a good job of it,
could be an argument to put forward a case for adding it to NVDA core. My
understanding is that this is basically how other screen readers make the same
assumptions about copying and pasting.
Re knowing when an email has been sent. In a way, it is the same
thing, because you don't get a message saying it has been sent, but you know it
has been sent because the draft email disappears when you give the instruction
to send it, and there's no error message. Theoretically, NVDA could be
made to give the user a message that the email had been sent. You are
right about teaching people to use those cues to know that it has been sent, my
point was simply that in my experience, if you haven't got them familiar with
the idea beforehand, probably the majority of people, if you just instruct them
how to write an email and what button to press to send it, will immediately ask
"did it send?" The merits of adding a confirmation to reassure new users,
vs only notifying when there is an error could be debated either way, but that's
the way it works, and largely, that is the same for copying text.
We could do away with a lot of confirmation messages if we expect people to
understand what commands they are giving the computer and the ways they
behave. Or, we could add in a lot more confirmation messages if we want to
make computers more novice friendly. Is the current system perfect?
Probably not. Office, for instance, has changed to automatically saving
documents. Once you've saved a document once, in Word 2003, if you write
some more text, and then press ALT+F4, Word will ask if you want to save the
changes. Word 365 will have already saved your changes and will simply
close. Which way is correct? You could argue either way - and in
fact, in the Office 365 model currenly, you NEVER get a confirmation your
document has been saved. But you can infer it by reading the title bar
(for the purpose of the conversation, disregard the bug that currently prevents
getting that information) and by the fact that you don't get prompted to save
when you try to close Word.
On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 10:48 AM Gene < gsasner@...> wrote:
If an e-mail has been sent, the window closes and
you are automatically placed where you were before you wrote, replied, to, or
forwarded a message. If a message isn't able to be sent, the program
opens an error window which gains focus and you can't miss it.
Therefore, a sent announcement is unnecessary and presents no information that
isn't obvious if you instruct the person in what to look for. Also,
learning how to derive information from context and behavior is
important. You won't always have someone explaining everything in every
program and every new program.
But since you clearly indicate that sighted
people get information when saving an already saved document again, this is a
case where the screen-reader isn't presenting information that would be useful
and that can't conveniently be inferred, as in the case of e-mail.
And the idea that the developers got somehow that
it can't be determined when copying and pasting take place is just plain
wrong. it isn't even debateable, it’s a matter of fact. JAWS knows
when, and System Access knows when. I have specifically seen instances
when copying didn't take place and no erroneous report was made. I don't
know how this myth that the developers persist in believing got started but it
has never been true.
Also, the NVDA add-on tells me accurately when
copying and pasting takes place. The person who wrote the add-on
believes that it doesn't for some reason but I've been using it almost daily
since it came out and I've almost never seen it make a mistake.
I'm making a point of this because, since this
can be accurately determined, it should be incorporated into NVDA and not left
to an add-on, which a lot of people will never know exist.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing
settings
Just chiming in to give the visual perspective:
In Notepad, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, the "Save as" dialog appears
and NVDA reports that.
- If the document has been saved previously, Notepad saves it, and NVDA
does not say anything (unless you have speak command keys on, in which case
NVDA reports "control+s"). Notepad does put an asterisk at the start of
the filename in the title bar when a document has been edited. This
disappears when the document is saved. NVDA does read this asterisk when
reading the title bar.
In Word 365, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, a "Save this file" window
appears and NVDA reports that.
- If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is enabled,
nothing happens and NVDA does not report anything (again unless speak command
keys is on to report "control+s"). With AutoSave on, the document is
saved every time any key is pressed so control+s is not needed.
- If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is not
enabled, the visual response is again subtle. When you open a document,
or save it, the title bar notes "Filename - Saved". Once you change it,
the "Saved" disappears. This gets reinstated when you save it.
There is currently a known issue, I believe with the way Office is exposing
the title bar. See: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10150
Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting when a document is
saved is not something we would be inclined to add to NVDA UNLESS we could be
sure a document had been saved. I can see the usefulness of the
functionality for some users (it reminds me of how when teaching email, people
often want confirmation that the email has been sent, but many email clients
don't give that). For this reason, I would recommend it might be useful
functionality for an add-on. Possibly Damien Garwood, developer of the
ClipSpeak add-on, might be interested in adding it.
Kind regards
Quentin.
On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 6:14 AM Gene < gsasner@...>
wrote:
I checked, and the settings you are discussing
are checked by default. So people should hear this message in
general.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing
settings
It should be spoken and if it isn't without
changing NVDA settings, the problem should be corrected.
Perhaps this is a problem
using NVDA in Windows 10. The message is spoken in Windows 7.
Gene
----- Original Message
-----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing
settings
Hi
If it is the message he wants to hear even though it is not spoken when
in note pad and do the alt key + f4 key and get the message do you want to
save which is not spoken.
he can do the following in nvdas settings under simple review cursor make
sure it is checked and make sure simple review mode is checked.
If i want to hear the message when it comes up and says cancel save etc
and it is not spoken out which does not worry me I can use object navigation
to hear it in this case it is the nvda key + 6 on the numeric keypad then
use nvda key + 4 tto go back to where the buttons are and save that way.
Some of the material that is not read out can be accessed with object
navigation like this example.
If a document is already saved I do not need to hear it has been saved as
I know it has been.
Gene nz
On 8/11/2019 7:40 am, Gene wrote:
Window-eyes says that because it is told by
the developers, to say that word when that key combination is
pressed. it isn't analyzing an action by the word processor or text
editor to know if a document was saved. It is just saying the
word. That is bad design and Window-eyes probably says other things
because the screen-reader is programmed to do so just because a certain
key combination is pressed.
Frankly, you are worrying excessively about
almost nothing. As I said, if you issue the save command twice, it
is almost 100 percent certain that the document has been saved. And
to emphasize the point, all this time, you were saving documents and
relying on Window-eyes to tell you that they were saved when actually, all
it was doing was saying the word saved because it was programmed to when
you pressed that combination. But that shows how reliably your
documents were being saved.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing
settings
FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s
command it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is helpful. Another
thought that occured to me is to go to the file name in the subdirectory
and check the date and time last saved, especially if i want to continue
editing the document.
Listening for His
shout!
Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa
DOS
-- ![Image NVDA
certified expert]()
--
Quentin
Christensen
Training and Support Manager
--
Quentin
Christensen
Training and Support Manager
|
|
|
Bobby Vinton <vinton.bobby5277@...>
Well opera still updates and it is chrome based
On 11/8/2019 1:14 AM, Arlene wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
What? Opera browser
still exists? I’ve heard of it when I was on the jaws list.
Not the list that Debbi Scales ran. She was for beginners
and advancing users. I was on the list for more advanced
users. There was where I heard about the Opera Browser. Can
anybody use it? Or is it for more advanced users where they
do computer coding? Sorry for the long message. I thought
Opera was a thing of the past.
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
i just tried it one time and it worked.
i dont remember which version i installed.
On 11/8/19, Bobby Vinton
<vinton.bobby5277@...> wrote:
> Hay I was wondering if the opera
browser works with a screen reader such
> as nvda? just let me know and I will
try it
>
>
>
>
>
--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali
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What? Opera browser still exists? I’ve heard of it when I was on the jaws list. Not the list that Debbi Scales ran. She was for beginners and advancing users. I was on the list for more advanced users. There was where I heard about the Opera Browser. Can anybody use it? Or is it for more advanced users where they do computer coding? Sorry for the long message. I thought Opera was a thing of the past. Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: zahraSent: November 7, 2019 10:00 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.ioSubject: Re: [nvda] the opra browser i just tried it one time and it worked. i dont remember which version i installed. On 11/8/19, Bobby Vinton <vinton.bobby5277@...> wrote: > Hay I was wondering if the opera browser works with a screen reader such > as nvda? just let me know and I will try it > > > > > -- By God, were I given all the seven heavens with all they contain in order that I may disobey God by depriving an ant from the husk of a grain of barley, I would not do it. imam ali
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Re: NVDA adding and changing settings
Jaffar Sidek <jaffar.sidek10@...>
Agreed Quentin. And for all of the issues experienced on the new
windows update, the windows+V key combo which allows for exploring
the history of what has been pasted to the clipboard is indeed
revolutionary in my opinion. The ability to retrieve one's
forgotten word or code or password or text at any time cannot be
underestimated. Cheers!
On 11/8/2019 2:04 PM, Quentin
Christensen wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Re copy and paste etc, remember it's not just about being
able to tell with relative confidence that something has
occurred, but also how much effort it takes to find that out.
I know the add-on seems to work pretty well when I've used it,
but maybe my machine is faster than average and my tolerance
for waiting for something to happen is greater.
For now, the functionality is available in an add-on. Yes
it could be argued to bring it over to core, but then again,
that would also take someone's time instead of adding some
other feature or fixing some other bug - again, not a reason
not to do it, but a reason to weigh up against whether it is
needed in core when it already exists as an add-on.
Actually, also just for the sake of adding it here, and
since I was just playing with it for another thread - Windows
10 has a clipboard history - you can press WINDOWS+V and arrow
through a list of recent things copied to the clipboard.
Arguably (for those on recent Windows 10 builds) that could be
a way of "checking" what has been copied if you aren't sure.
On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 3:15 PM
Gene < gsasner@...> wrote:
I didn't say you said
that. You said and this is a quote, for those with
punctuation off, "Similar
to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting when a
document is saved is not something we would be
inclined to add to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a
document had been saved."
I see no evidence that
copy, cut, and paste, can't be definitely determined. I
don't know what JAWS does or System Access, nor do I
know how the add-on monitors to determine when text is
copied and pasted. But the reason the developers didn't
want to put a copy and paste announcement in NVDA is
because they said you can't tell when those actions are
done, which is incorrect. I'm saying that some how,
when this was being considered, the developers believed
it couldn't be done and that is stated in the Github
(spelling) discussion.
A copy and paste
announcement is a different case from an e-mail sent
announcement. In the e-mail case, you get an indication
from the program whether the message was sent. When you
copy, there is nothing that happens to confirm that you
have done so. Without such confirmation, very
inconvenient things may occur. Suppose you are copying
or moving files. You issue the copy command, move
fifteen selected files, then issue the copy command
after you have selected twenty more files. You then
paste in a different folder than the first fifteen.
Imagine the annoyance when you find you have copied the
first fifteen files over again. You then have the
annoyance of having to delete them, go back, copy the
twenty files over again after you select them again,
then paste them again. The same thing could happen with
text.
You can't assume that even
if you are careful and know you have issued the copy
command correctly, that it has worked. I have exeecuted
commands in the past that weren't carried out for some
reason and I had to execute the command twice. Before
the add-on, I had inconveniences such as I described
above now and then. They could have been avoided if the
add-on had been available or if a copy and paste
announcement were built into NVDA. I consider this an
important function and it should be built into the
screen-reader.
My experience is that the
add-on is accurate, but if others have experiences that
it isn't as good as it ideally should be, then that
could be worked on.
But aside from my
experience that the add-on works well, my experience
with JAWS, which I used for years before NVDA existed,
is that it is accurate. I'm saying that the premise on
which the function was rejected is incorrect.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 7:32 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing
settings
I didn't say you couldn't make an educational
assumption about when copying and pasting has taken place,
and from what I've experienced, the add-on does do an
excellent job of this. What I meant by us not being able
to tell, was more that it would involve checking other
things to determine whether something has been copied etc,
rather than having something exposed from the program or
Windows which states definitively "text has been copied"
(or how much, or whatever). The fact that the add-on does
such a good job of it, could be an argument to put forward
a case for adding it to NVDA core. My understanding is
that this is basically how other screen readers make the
same assumptions about copying and pasting.
Re knowing when an email has been sent. In a way, it
is the same thing, because you don't get a message
saying it has been sent, but you know it has been sent
because the draft email disappears when you give the
instruction to send it, and there's no error message.
Theoretically, NVDA could be made to give the user a
message that the email had been sent. You are right
about teaching people to use those cues to know that it
has been sent, my point was simply that in my
experience, if you haven't got them familiar with the
idea beforehand, probably the majority of people, if you
just instruct them how to write an email and what button
to press to send it, will immediately ask "did it
send?" The merits of adding a confirmation to reassure
new users, vs only notifying when there is an error
could be debated either way, but that's the way it
works, and largely, that is the same for copying text.
We could do away with a lot of confirmation messages
if we expect people to understand what commands they are
giving the computer and the ways they behave. Or, we
could add in a lot more confirmation messages if we want
to make computers more novice friendly. Is the current
system perfect? Probably not. Office, for instance,
has changed to automatically saving documents. Once
you've saved a document once, in Word 2003, if you write
some more text, and then press ALT+F4, Word will ask if
you want to save the changes. Word 365 will have
already saved your changes and will simply close. Which
way is correct? You could argue either way - and in
fact, in the Office 365 model currenly, you NEVER get a
confirmation your document has been saved. But you can
infer it by reading the title bar (for the purpose of
the conversation, disregard the bug that currently
prevents getting that information) and by the fact that
you don't get prompted to save when you try to close
Word.
On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at
10:48 AM Gene < gsasner@...>
wrote:
If an e-mail has been
sent, the window closes and you are automatically
placed where you were before you wrote, replied,
to, or forwarded a message. If a message isn't
able to be sent, the program opens an error window
which gains focus and you can't miss it.
Therefore, a sent announcement is unnecessary and
presents no information that isn't obvious if you
instruct the person in what to look for. Also,
learning how to derive information from context
and behavior is important. You won't always have
someone explaining everything in every program and
every new program.
But since you clearly
indicate that sighted people get information when
saving an already saved document again, this is a
case where the screen-reader isn't presenting
information that would be useful and that can't
conveniently be inferred, as in the case of
e-mail.
And the idea that the
developers got somehow that it can't be determined
when copying and pasting take place is just plain
wrong. it isn't even debateable, it’s a matter of
fact. JAWS knows when, and System Access knows
when. I have specifically seen instances when
copying didn't take place and no erroneous report
was made. I don't know how this myth that the
developers persist in believing got started but it
has never been true.
Also, the NVDA add-on
tells me accurately when copying and pasting takes
place. The person who wrote the add-on believes
that it doesn't for some reason but I've been
using it almost daily since it came out and I've
almost never seen it make a mistake.
I'm making a point of
this because, since this can be accurately
determined, it should be incorporated into NVDA
and not left to an add-on, which a lot of people
will never know exist.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 4:39
PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and
changing settings
Just chiming in to give the visual
perspective:
In Notepad, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before,
the "Save as" dialog appears and NVDA reports
that.
- If the document has been saved previously,
Notepad saves it, and NVDA does not say anything
(unless you have speak command keys on, in which
case NVDA reports "control+s"). Notepad does put
an asterisk at the start of the filename in the
title bar when a document has been edited. This
disappears when the document is saved. NVDA does
read this asterisk when reading the title bar.
In Word 365, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, a
"Save this file" window appears and NVDA reports
that.
- If the document has been saved previously and
"AutoSave" is enabled, nothing happens and NVDA
does not report anything (again unless speak
command keys is on to report "control+s"). With
AutoSave on, the document is saved every time any
key is pressed so control+s is not needed.
- If the document has been saved previously and
"AutoSave" is not enabled, the visual response is
again subtle. When you open a document, or save
it, the title bar notes "Filename - Saved". Once
you change it, the "Saved" disappears. This gets
reinstated when you save it. There is currently a
known issue, I believe with the way Office is
exposing the title bar. See: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10150
Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted,
reporting when a document is saved is not
something we would be inclined to add to NVDA
UNLESS we could be sure a document had been
saved. I can see the usefulness of the
functionality for some users (it reminds me of how
when teaching email, people often want
confirmation that the email has been sent, but
many email clients don't give that). For this
reason, I would recommend it might be useful
functionality for an add-on. Possibly Damien
Garwood, developer of the ClipSpeak add-on, might
be interested in adding it.
Kind regards
Quentin.
On Fri, Nov 8,
2019 at 6:14 AM Gene < gsasner@...>
wrote:
I checked, and
the settings you are discussing are checked
by default. So people should hear this
message in general.
Gene
----- Original Message
-----
Sent: Thursday, November 07,
2019 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding
and changing settings
It should be
spoken and if it isn't without changing NVDA
settings, the problem should be corrected.
Perhaps
this is a problem using NVDA in Windows 10.
The message is spoken in Windows 7.
Gene
-----
Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019
1:02 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding
and changing settings
Hi
If it is the message he wants to hear even
though it is not spoken when in note pad and
do the alt key + f4 key and get the message do
you want to save which is not spoken.
he can do the following in nvdas settings
under simple review cursor make sure it is
checked and make sure simple review mode is
checked.
If i want to hear the message when it comes
up and says cancel save etc and it is not
spoken out which does not worry me I can use
object navigation to hear it in this case it
is the nvda key + 6 on the numeric keypad then
use nvda key + 4 tto go back to where the
buttons are and save that way.
Some of the material that is not read out can
be accessed with object navigation like this
example.
If a document is already saved I do not need
to hear it has been saved as I know it has
been.
Gene nz
On 8/11/2019 7:40 am, Gene wrote:
Window-eyes
says that because it is told by the
developers, to say that word when that key
combination is pressed. it isn't
analyzing an action by the word processor
or text editor to know if a document was
saved. It is just saying the word. That
is bad design and Window-eyes probably
says other things because the
screen-reader is programmed to do so just
because a certain key combination is
pressed.
Frankly, you
are worrying excessively about almost
nothing. As I said, if you issue the save
command twice, it is almost 100 percent
certain that the document has been saved.
And to emphasize the point, all this time,
you were saving documents and relying on
Window-eyes to tell you that they were
saved when actually, all it was doing was
saying the word saved because it was
programmed to when you pressed that
combination. But that shows how reliably
your documents were being saved.
Gene
----- Original
Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07,
2019 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA
adding and changing settings
FYI: In
Window-Eyes when pressing the
control-s command it does say
“save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command
is helpful. Another thought that
occured to me is to go to the file
name in the subdirectory and check
the date and time last saved,
especially if i want to continue
editing the document.
Listening for
His shout!
Grant –
A.K.A. Grandpa DOS
--
![Image NVDA certified expert]()
--
Quentin
Christensen
Training and Support
Manager
--
Quentin
Christensen
Training and Support Manager
--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager
|
|
|
