Date   

Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

hurrikennyandopo ...
 

Hi


I am also running windows 10 version 1809 with the latest google chrome browser and nvda 2018.4 beta 2 and am having no problems with it works like it should.


Gene nz


On 4/12/2018 11:12 AM, Don H wrote:
After installing this addon on my Win 10 1809 system and using Google Chrome I enter into a state where NVDA starts reading everything on the page and nothing will stop it.  I can not even use alt f4 to close the web site.




--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Gene
 

I didn't say it would be generally harmful nor that anyone will stop using other navigation techniques.  I'm only talking about inexperienced users and I'm saying that claiming that this app will do ninety percent of what you want to do on the Internet may dissuade them from learning other things they should know.
 
I strongly disagree that you have to hype and oversell something in order to get people to use it.  I would use it except that I'm waiting for a read to end feature and I know exactly what it doesbecause of your demonstration.  Experienced users know what it does and a lot of them will use it as well, unless they are waiting for something specific like a read to end feature.
When add-ons for Firefox and Chrome came out that are reading add-ons, many blind people were interested.
 
Many people oversell NVDA as well.  It isn't necessary.  Just describing the product or demonstrating it is more than convincing enough.  The same for this app.  If people weren't interested in the past, the cause was something else.  If your audio demonstration called it a reading app and you had demonstrated its use, that would have been just as effective.  And you could make statements such as, a lot of what people do on the Internet is read articles.  This app will save a lot of time and make this much easier and more convenient.  Then, you can demonstrate it, just as you did.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2018 5:04 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Gene,
I think we have two main points of disagreement: the first being the
description of TextNav, and the second being whether TextNav will be
harmful in the long run since people will stop learning browse mode
commands.
1. Yes, you can call TextNav a reading add-on. I would even agree with
you, it is a reading add-on indeed. The other day Joseph Lee announced
TextNav as better paragraph navigation commands. He is right too.
However nobody would download and try using an add-on, that provides
better paragraph navigation. Nobody would be excited about a reading
add-on. That's why I call it the new way of browsing Internet. I'm
running a marketing campaign, I hope not that dirty. But I'm just
trying to attract some attention. Hopefully to everyone's benefit.
Nobody would have bought the first car in the world if this car was
advertised as a better horse carriage, even though that would've been
an accurate description for 19-th century person. Nobody would have
bought the first computer if it was called a better calculator. I hope
you see my point.
2.I don't have any new arguments here either. I think time will show
whether TextNav will end up being useful or detrimental for NVDA
community. I hope nobody would propose to delete TextNav in fear that
people would forget how to use browse mode commands. And I feel that
if not me, someone else would've eventually come up with this idea
anyway.

Best
Tony


On 12/3/18, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
> I'll say at this point that I probably won't write more in the thread.  I've
> said what I have to say and I'vew explained it more clearly as the thread
> continued and as I saw more clearly what the main issue is and how to
> present it.  Many people have evidently misunderstood what I said, at least
> before reading my last explanatory message.  But pretty much anything more I
> would say would be repetition.
>
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Gene via Groups.Io
> Sent: Monday, December 03, 2018 4:34 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
> Internet
>
>
> I'm sorry, but I don't know what lists you are referring to.  That is not
> the case here nor on the lists I'm a member of.  And I didn't say anything
> about doing things the hardest way possible as being preferred.  See the
> last message I sent which explains in the best way, what my position is.
>
> Comparing blind and sighted people in the way you are doing is invalid.  for
> one thing, the Internet is designed to be visually intuitive for sighted
> people.  They don't have to learn nearly as much to use it effectively.  and
> in your work place, if the training was inadequate, that is the fault of
> those who prepared and administered the training.  But what does that have
> to do with what we are talking about?
>
> Gene
> ----- Original message -----
>
> From: Andy
> Sent: Monday, December 03, 2018 4:21 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
> Internet
>
>
> If this list were composed of sighted persons we wouldn't even be having
> this discussion.  Whenever topics like this come up on a blind list, there
> is always a chorus that keeps singing the virtues of doing things the
> hardest way possible.  I recall in the mid 90s when individual employees at
> our facility were issues PCs and were expected to use them.  many of the
> staff were older and had no experience using a PC.  There were classes, but
> they were designed to be short in duration, and they made many assumptions
> about the level of experience and ability of the persons taking the class.
> It was quite common for people to ask for assistance from coworkers who were
> more experienced.  That assistance was always gladly given, in fact, I gave
> much assistance myself.
> I do not recall anyone telling someone to read a manual, etc.  But on these
> lists people are often called out when they ask for assistance, or a
> developer who wants to address a need is told that their product is either
> unnecessary or even harmful. The range of experience and ability is just as
> wide among the blind as among the sighted.  Why can't we demonstrate the
> same level of understanding and compassion as we did at our facility?  If an
> add on or software program can enable someone to benefit from computing who
> might otherwise be deprived of this benefit, why not support it?  There is
> way too much computer equipment sitting in closets gathering dust because
> people did not receive the support they needed to learn to use it, and were
> often put down when they came on lists, chats, etc. and asked for help. I
> commend Tony for his efforts and wish him success.
>
> Andy
>
> "He who lives on hope will die of starvation".
> Benjamin Franklin
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Brian Vogel
>   To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>   Sent: Monday, December 03, 2018 1:25 PM
>   Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
> Internet
>
>
>   Tony,
>
>            First, thanks much for the time and effort you put in to creating
> this add-on.
>
>            Although I can agree that a number of points brought up since the
> initial announcement have some validity, many go well beyond the scope of
> your add-on alone and could be applied to any number of NVDA add-ons and, in
> fact, are really separate philosophical and practical issues of their own.
>
>            You're a better man than I, as I know I would be feeling, "No
> good deed goes unpunished," were I you, and not being nearly so gracious
> about it.
>   --
>
>   Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763
>
>   A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need
> for illusion is deep.
>
>             ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Adriani Botez
 

Hello Tony,

I actually like your way to do it because even if it is not a revolution, it really improves browsind in internet on many websites. and as every marketing campaign, you need some metapher and some descriptive points. Actually it is a very good strategy to raise awareness of using add-ons. And additionally, you show that you are a very engaged author who is convinced that his add-ons are useful for most people. This is a very important thing in this community. We need more authors who put such energy in making their add-ons available to everyone.

So stay tuned and continue to do your job. This is the right way.

because you know,
"Content is king, but distribution is queen and she wears the pants."


Best
Adriani



-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Tony Malykh
Gesendet: Dienstag, 4. Dezember 2018 00:04
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Gene,
I think we have two main points of disagreement: the first being the description of TextNav, and the second being whether TextNav will be harmful in the long run since people will stop learning browse mode commands.
1. Yes, you can call TextNav a reading add-on. I would even agree with you, it is a reading add-on indeed. The other day Joseph Lee announced TextNav as better paragraph navigation commands. He is right too.
However nobody would download and try using an add-on, that provides better paragraph navigation. Nobody would be excited about a reading add-on. That's why I call it the new way of browsing Internet. I'm running a marketing campaign, I hope not that dirty. But I'm just trying to attract some attention. Hopefully to everyone's benefit.
Nobody would have bought the first car in the world if this car was advertised as a better horse carriage, even though that would've been an accurate description for 19-th century person. Nobody would have bought the first computer if it was called a better calculator. I hope you see my point.
2.I don't have any new arguments here either. I think time will show whether TextNav will end up being useful or detrimental for NVDA community. I hope nobody would propose to delete TextNav in fear that people would forget how to use browse mode commands. And I feel that if not me, someone else would've eventually come up with this idea anyway.

Best
Tony

On 12/3/18, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
I'll say at this point that I probably won't write more in the thread.
I've said what I have to say and I'vew explained it more clearly as
the thread continued and as I saw more clearly what the main issue is
and how to present it. Many people have evidently misunderstood what
I said, at least before reading my last explanatory message. But
pretty much anything more I would say would be repetition.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Gene via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2018 4:34 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to
browse Internet


I'm sorry, but I don't know what lists you are referring to. That is
not the case here nor on the lists I'm a member of. And I didn't say
anything about doing things the hardest way possible as being
preferred. See the last message I sent which explains in the best way, what my position is.

Comparing blind and sighted people in the way you are doing is
invalid. for one thing, the Internet is designed to be visually
intuitive for sighted people. They don't have to learn nearly as much
to use it effectively. and in your work place, if the training was
inadequate, that is the fault of those who prepared and administered
the training. But what does that have to do with what we are talking about?

Gene
----- Original message -----

From: Andy
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2018 4:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to
browse Internet


If this list were composed of sighted persons we wouldn't even be
having this discussion. Whenever topics like this come up on a blind
list, there is always a chorus that keeps singing the virtues of doing
things the hardest way possible. I recall in the mid 90s when
individual employees at our facility were issues PCs and were expected
to use them. many of the staff were older and had no experience using
a PC. There were classes, but they were designed to be short in
duration, and they made many assumptions about the level of experience and ability of the persons taking the class.
It was quite common for people to ask for assistance from coworkers
who were more experienced. That assistance was always gladly given,
in fact, I gave much assistance myself.
I do not recall anyone telling someone to read a manual, etc. But on
these lists people are often called out when they ask for assistance,
or a developer who wants to address a need is told that their product
is either unnecessary or even harmful. The range of experience and
ability is just as wide among the blind as among the sighted. Why
can't we demonstrate the same level of understanding and compassion as
we did at our facility? If an add on or software program can enable
someone to benefit from computing who might otherwise be deprived of
this benefit, why not support it? There is way too much computer
equipment sitting in closets gathering dust because people did not
receive the support they needed to learn to use it, and were often put
down when they came on lists, chats, etc. and asked for help. I commend Tony for his efforts and wish him success.

Andy

"He who lives on hope will die of starvation".
Benjamin Franklin

----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Vogel
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2018 1:25 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to
browse Internet


Tony,

First, thanks much for the time and effort you put in to
creating this add-on.

Although I can agree that a number of points brought up
since the initial announcement have some validity, many go well beyond
the scope of your add-on alone and could be applied to any number of
NVDA add-ons and, in fact, are really separate philosophical and practical issues of their own.

You're a better man than I, as I know I would be feeling,
"No good deed goes unpunished," were I you, and not being nearly so
gracious about it.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the
need for illusion is deep.

~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back









Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Tony Malykh
 

Gene,
I think we have two main points of disagreement: the first being the
description of TextNav, and the second being whether TextNav will be
harmful in the long run since people will stop learning browse mode
commands.
1. Yes, you can call TextNav a reading add-on. I would even agree with
you, it is a reading add-on indeed. The other day Joseph Lee announced
TextNav as better paragraph navigation commands. He is right too.
However nobody would download and try using an add-on, that provides
better paragraph navigation. Nobody would be excited about a reading
add-on. That's why I call it the new way of browsing Internet. I'm
running a marketing campaign, I hope not that dirty. But I'm just
trying to attract some attention. Hopefully to everyone's benefit.
Nobody would have bought the first car in the world if this car was
advertised as a better horse carriage, even though that would've been
an accurate description for 19-th century person. Nobody would have
bought the first computer if it was called a better calculator. I hope
you see my point.
2.I don't have any new arguments here either. I think time will show
whether TextNav will end up being useful or detrimental for NVDA
community. I hope nobody would propose to delete TextNav in fear that
people would forget how to use browse mode commands. And I feel that
if not me, someone else would've eventually come up with this idea
anyway.

Best
Tony

On 12/3/18, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
I'll say at this point that I probably won't write more in the thread. I've
said what I have to say and I'vew explained it more clearly as the thread
continued and as I saw more clearly what the main issue is and how to
present it. Many people have evidently misunderstood what I said, at least
before reading my last explanatory message. But pretty much anything more I
would say would be repetition.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Gene via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2018 4:34 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
Internet


I'm sorry, but I don't know what lists you are referring to. That is not
the case here nor on the lists I'm a member of. And I didn't say anything
about doing things the hardest way possible as being preferred. See the
last message I sent which explains in the best way, what my position is.

Comparing blind and sighted people in the way you are doing is invalid. for
one thing, the Internet is designed to be visually intuitive for sighted
people. They don't have to learn nearly as much to use it effectively. and
in your work place, if the training was inadequate, that is the fault of
those who prepared and administered the training. But what does that have
to do with what we are talking about?

Gene
----- Original message -----

From: Andy
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2018 4:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
Internet


If this list were composed of sighted persons we wouldn't even be having
this discussion. Whenever topics like this come up on a blind list, there
is always a chorus that keeps singing the virtues of doing things the
hardest way possible. I recall in the mid 90s when individual employees at
our facility were issues PCs and were expected to use them. many of the
staff were older and had no experience using a PC. There were classes, but
they were designed to be short in duration, and they made many assumptions
about the level of experience and ability of the persons taking the class.
It was quite common for people to ask for assistance from coworkers who were
more experienced. That assistance was always gladly given, in fact, I gave
much assistance myself.
I do not recall anyone telling someone to read a manual, etc. But on these
lists people are often called out when they ask for assistance, or a
developer who wants to address a need is told that their product is either
unnecessary or even harmful. The range of experience and ability is just as
wide among the blind as among the sighted. Why can't we demonstrate the
same level of understanding and compassion as we did at our facility? If an
add on or software program can enable someone to benefit from computing who
might otherwise be deprived of this benefit, why not support it? There is
way too much computer equipment sitting in closets gathering dust because
people did not receive the support they needed to learn to use it, and were
often put down when they came on lists, chats, etc. and asked for help. I
commend Tony for his efforts and wish him success.

Andy

"He who lives on hope will die of starvation".
Benjamin Franklin

----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Vogel
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2018 1:25 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
Internet


Tony,

First, thanks much for the time and effort you put in to creating
this add-on.

Although I can agree that a number of points brought up since the
initial announcement have some validity, many go well beyond the scope of
your add-on alone and could be applied to any number of NVDA add-ons and, in
fact, are really separate philosophical and practical issues of their own.

You're a better man than I, as I know I would be feeling, "No
good deed goes unpunished," were I you, and not being nearly so gracious
about it.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need
for illusion is deep.

~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back









Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Aman Singer
 

Hi,

I haven't read all the messages about this add-on, but write to say that I have been using it for some weeks now and wouldn't be without it. This was one of the major things I missed when I moved from Jaws. I made the sacrifice because NVDA worked better with my remote usage, but it was a sacrifice that I could no longer move easily to large blocks of text. With TextNav, I am able to do this smoothly and quickly in multiple applications and that is seriously helpful. Maybe there are other ways to do this, but the computer exists for me, and I find the TextNav method excellent. I am very grateful for the author's effort, the add-on works and saves me tons of aggravation.
Aman

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steve Nomer
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2018 5:46 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

It's a fantastic add-on. I read lots of news stories and tech articles per day, and I can't begin to tell you how much time it saves me.
Thanks, Tony, for a terrific add-on!


Steve


Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Steve Nomer
 

It's a fantastic add-on. I read lots of news stories and tech articles per day, and I can't begin to tell you how much time it saves me. Thanks, Tony, for a terrific add-on!


Steve

On 12/3/2018 4:44 PM, Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io wrote:
I agree and am just about to download and try thanks for the addon.   If I don't like it I just won't use it but keep up the good work.

On 03/12/2018 20:48, Tyler Wood wrote:
Hi,

Just because you know all of the browse commands (I know them enough myself) doesn't mean this is taking them away from you. I do not understand that logic.

Refusing to use this add on just because you know all of the commands doesn't make it any quicker - you're just giving yourself extra steps because you can.


Adblockers do nothing to hide the share on facebook, share on twitter garbage that 99^ of articles come with.


Sarah - claiming that 90 percent of websites is false, then claiming that more websites are filling with cluttered junk is very contradictory lol. This add on means to get rid of that and I for one applaud.


I include amazon in this. The amount of crap I have to sift through before I actually get to the product description is mind boggling.


On 2018-12-03 2:35 p.m., hurrikennyandopo ... wrote:

Hi Tony


Just been taking the add on for a test drive. I agree with you. When i am reading a website with the news on it basically as you already know locate the heading usually with a link then press the enter key to go into the story.


I would then have to jump down a couple of headings then a list box jump to the end of it  then use the read to end command. Then it would come up with like email, face book etc which are links then the story might start. The add on as you said makes it a lot quicker to get to the story I want to read and leaves out the other stuff i do not want it to read.


I know there are people on this list who would use text based browsers i think one was called webbie and it would strip out the extra stuff and just have the text that could be read out which there are people who find it easier to do.


when a person is learning they  do not want information overload like memorizing all the quick navigation keys they only learn the main ones like headings, lists or links and how to go into a page and back a page.


The rest of the commands they can learn at a later date and are still present even though they are using the add on.


I could see a few of our older people using the add on to get to the story quicker without jumping to many hoops.


My self i can see using it to.


Gene nz





On 4/12/2018 9:10 AM, Tony Malykh wrote:
Gene,
I don't see your comments hostile at all. You provide very reasonable
feedback for me, and I really appreciate that, though I don't quite
agree with some of your points.
1. TextNav is indeed supposed to be the easier way. The question is
whether this is good or bad in from the absolute point of view. I
agree it will reduce motivation for people to learn the proper way.
The good thing is it might allow some other people e.g. older people,
to use Internet. This is the trade off I see. Time will decide if it
is good or bad. But again, remember my example with Microsoft Windows?
Exactly the same argument was made, that Windows will make people lazy
and they will not learn the proper way to interact with computer using
command prompt. And then decades went by, and the right way became the
Windows way. So, sometimes, the definition of what's proper can
change. Not today, today as we agree, TextNav is not good enough to
fully replace traditional browse mode commands. But what I'm trying to
say is giv give a chance to the new tools. Give Windows and automatic
transmissions a chance. Nobody would blame you today that you don't
know how to press clutch.
2. You are trying to say that students first should learn Internet the
hard way, and only then try TextNav. I'm not a teacher, but I don't
understand why we cannot reverse the order. We don't learn calculus
before arithmetics. In general this is how education works, we start
with simple things and over the years learn more complicated things.
Why learning screenreaders must be an exception? When you're saying
that students won't learn the traditional browse mode commands because
TextNav is works for them, I can claim that students won't learn
calculus, because they're good enough with 3rd grade arithmetics. I'm
sorry to point that out, I hope you won't consider this to be a sign
of hostility, and I respect your point of view, but I just can't quite
agree with it.
3. I want to promote my add-on. I want more blind people to be aware
of it and at least try it once. I think it is going to be beneficial
for 90% of blind people. But it is very hard to communicate the
message. Last time I tried explainning to people what it really is and
not many people got it. So this time I decided to try marketing
techniques. I do exagerate things, but only a little bit. You might be
right when you want to call it just a reading add-on, but if I call it
a reading add-on, then only two users will actually try it. By calling
it "the new way of browsing Internet" I hope to attract some more
attention. Am I deceptive? Maybe a little bit, but nowhere near as
much as a typical TV commercial.

Sarah,
Please see my comment to Gene about the order of learning things.
I would still defend my 90/90% statement. The example of Amazon you
gave falls into the 10% that's not covered by TextNav - just because
there are form controls there. If a website has buttons and edit
boxes, obviously you cannot navigate it effectively using TextNav.
But let me give you a list of web sites where textNav would greatly
improve your efficiency:
News websites (hundreds of them), forums (thousands of them), blogs
(tens of thouusands, maybe more? whatever), product pages, Wikipedia
and other smaller wiki sites, online documentation sites.
These are just the major categories. Basically all the web sites where
you don't need to interact with form elements and that have some text
on them.

Sam
TextNav looks for text written in full sentences that are separated by periods.


On 12/3/18, Shaun Everiss<sm.everiss@gmail.com> wrote:
To be honest I won't be getting this, I know how to brouse, to be
honest, even though I was given extensive training for windows and jaws
back in the day, I have a subset of commands I use.

Since I have pulled out of uni and don't have a mainstream job my
commands have dropped.

I need enough to navigate the web, thunderbird, and a few other apps but
I honestly don't use that many comands at all.



On 12/4/2018 6:53 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I agree with jean. I push my students as well as I was pushed to learn
all of the browse commands and I was a beginner. Then and only then
could I learn other ways other easier ways.

Second, 90 percent out of 90 percent of websites? I don't think so.
Many websites are getting harder to use and more cluttered and full of
gunk that the sighted like and the blind hate. Amazon anyone? So. your
second claim is faulse, or soon might be.

On 3 Dec 2018, at 9:22, Tony Malykh wrote:

Gene,
It seems to me all your comments imply that I want to replace browse
mode keystrokes with TextNav. I emphasize, that TextNav does not
replace them, but it should be used in addition to them. I agree some
webdsites can be navigated very well with browse mode commands. I
agree that power users should learn all the browse mode commands. But:
1. TextNav is great for new websites. Even for power users, you can
quickly find out the right content without in-depth study of the
layout of this website.
2. TextNav is great for newbies. Instead of pushing students to learn
twenty five browse mode commands, just show them a single TextNav
keystroke, that can let you browse 90% of content on 90% of web sites.
And then, if they feel like learning more powerful techniques, they
can always learn all 25 of browse mode commands. I still remember
myself trying to learn all these browse mode command like five years
ago when I started to learn screenreadres, and it made me very
frustrated - so much stuff to learn. Why don't teach students a single
command on the first day to give them a teste of Internet, and then
move on to more powerful commands?
3. Older people that I know don't use Internet, because "it's too
complicated". I only try to solve this problem.
4. Again, I emphasize, that if you want to figure out the name of the
user on the forum, or the author of an article, you can always jus go
back to traditional browse mode commands. Again, TextNav is not a
replacement and doesn't strive to be one. However, in my daily
routine, 90% of the time I don't care about the author. I suspect many
NVDA users are like me, but I might be wrong here.
5. Automatic reading mode is stil available as NVDA keystroke. It
wouldn't skip over ads though. I might think of having automatic
reading mode with TextNav, but that's a suggestion for the future
development.

Best
Tony



On 12/2/18, Gene<gsasner@gmail.com>  wrote:
I'll discuss some points:
First, something that I can comment on very briefly.  You only tried
the
skip blocks of links command on one site and, evidently, on one
article.  I
said that on some sites, one method works better and on others, another
does.  The skip blocks of links command is an important and useful
command.

It may be that some people want a very simple way to read articles
on web
pages and might have problems with using more complex ways, as you
say.  My
concern is that many people who can learn other ways that would give
them
far more versatility and who wouldn't have trouble doing so may be
disuaded
from doing so.  So perhaps you should discuss just what this is for
and its
limitations when you promote or describe it. It is a reading add-on
that
allows you to skip to the start of an article and skip all
interruptions to
the article such as groups of links to related material, advertisements
image descriptions, and perhaps other things I haven't thought of.
I think
that making this clear and saying that those who want to use the
Internet in
a wide variety of ways not involving mainly reading, such as music
sites and
search sites, still need to learn and become profficient in the
other ways
of web navigation NVDA offers.  I don't object to the add-on but
there are
many blind people who, because of a lack of knowledge or
self-confidence,
severely limit themselves because they don't realize or believe they
can't
do things they can do.  I'm not sure just how you would present the
add-on
but for a lot of people this would be an important convenience but
you are
extremely limited if you don't know enough about web page navigation
to use
search sites.  Even many of the older people you are discussing, I
suspect,
would want to know how to do basic searches.

When I read a forum, I want to find a solution but what if I don't
have any
idea which might be more likely to work or come from a more
knowledgeable
user?  Being more knowledgeable doesn't necessarily mean the
information is
better but I consider it to be information to be aware of, whether
someone
is a high ranking member of a list, an employee of Microsoft or some
other
relevant company or organization, and other information, if
available that
may help me assess his reliability.  None of this is heard in the
current
way the add-on works.

and there are lots of other kinds of forums.  Some people like to
hang out
on political forums.  they might well want to know who is writing so
they
can see if the person is worth reading and either skipping,
skimming, or
paying close attention to posts of certain authors.
there are an enormous number of forums.  As I said, I don't know if the
add-on can have some sort of forums mode.  I don't have the technical
knowledge to know.

also, you didn't respond to what I said about having an automatic
reading
mode.  This is an important feature.  Many people may use the add-on
to find
the beginning of an article but may not continue to use it to read the
article because they don't want to issue a command every few
sentences while
reading.  If there were an automatic read command, this would allow
people
to read as they would when using the speak to end command. But the
add-on
would skip any extraneous material and read the entire article without
interruption or the need to repeatedly issue the read command.  .

And while this isn't a forum, consider something like the op-ed
pages of a
newspaper.  A bit of information may be provided about guest
columnists that
may be useful to readers.  If someone works at a conservative think
tank,
his views may be very different than someone who works for a liberal
one.
If the person works for a specific company, I want to know that.
That puts
me on guard that his views may be defending the company for which he
works.
If such information is routinely stripped by the add-on, that is
important.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 10:56 PM
To:nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
Internet


Hi Gene,
Thank you for your feedback, I think these are very reasonable
questions you are raising.
1. I didn't claim that TextNav should replace the traditional way of
browsing internet. It should rather augment it, be an addition to the
standard navigation commands.
2. I see a lot of older blind people, for whom using computer is a
burden. You can claim they should still learn the proper way. Or you
can let them use the simpler way and let them enjoy what they can
enjoy with TextNav. Some of them might never be able to learn the
proper way - when you're 80 your brain doesn't work as well as when
you're 20. It is a question of simpler tools versus more powerful
tools. When cars with automatic transmission just appeared people were
claiming they are bad because the drivers will never learn to use the
clutch. Or when Windows appeared, some were claiming that it makes
people stupid, because they never learn the command-line way of unix.
Think of TextNav as a car with automatic transmission. And if you want
to learn more powerful ways to navigate web pages, NVDA browse mode
commands are always there.
3. I agree I might have slightly exaggerated about 13x speedup. But
when I use TextNav myself, I can browse the web many times faster.
4. I never knew of the N command in browse mode. I just tried it on
one web page and it seems to skip over the first paragraph of the
article. So you would have to press it a few times, try to figure out
if you are inside the article, and then go back up until you find the
beginning. All that compared to a single keystroke of TextNav.
5. Crackling sound can be turned off or made quieter in the settings.
6. Often times I just want to read the article. I don't want to read
the name of the author, date of publication, read the description of
the image. Sometimes the article is interesting, and I might want to
find the name of the author. Again, I can always do it with the
standard browse mode command. But Most of the times I don't care. By
skipping over these fields, you save a few seconds every time, but
this accumulates over the day into a much more efficient browsing
experience. Time will show how many NVDA users are like me not
interested in the name of the author.
7. Same thing on the forum. I come to forums to solve my problems,
like in my example, the problem with bluetooth headphones. I don't
care whatsoever what's the nickname of the guy who asked the question,
and I care much less who answered it.

Best regards
Tony


On 12/2/18, Gene<gsasner@gmail.com>  wrote:
I have some comments on your demo for TextNav.  First, it isn't a
substitute
for learning the layout and structures of web pages.  If you use it
before
you know these things, you may not learn to deal with other than
straight
reading situations well.

Your claim that TextNav is thirteen times more efficient when
reading the
page you used is not correct.  it is thirteen times more efficient
if you
don't know how to work with internet pages for reading something
like an
article well, but you used a very inefficient method for your
comparison.
You didn't start at the top of the page and use the skip blocks of
links
command, the letter n.  That gets you much much closer to the article
text
because it skips most of the material on this page before the article
starts.  On some pages, move by heading works better.  On some,
move by
skip
nnavigation works bettter.  on some, move by heading, then using skip
navigation links works better.  On some, the find command works
better.
You
may not find an efficient way to work with a page until you
experiment.
Once you do, you can use other article pages on that site the same
way.
I want to be clear.  I am not saying that the add-on isn't very
useful in
skipping to the first sentence of an article.  But you don't hear the
author, you may not hear introductory material you might want to hear,
and,
if the article is more than two or three paragraphs, it would be
exceedingly
tedious to issue the move to next paragraph command repeatedly.  For a
somewhat long news article or a somewhat long magazine article, I
would
imagine you might have to issue the command twenty or thirty or
forty or
more times.  The add-on needs an automated mode for straight reading
uninterruptedly.

And finally, your forum example demonstrates a real deficiency in the
add-on.  It starts reading the text of the first post and skips all
information about who wrote it or how old it is or any other
information
that might be of interest such as what rating the person has for
reliability
or what his credentials are.  Also, as you continue to read and
even if
you
know when a second post is beginning to be read, you don't know who
it is
from.  You can't be sure all the time, I would think, who is
commenting
on
comments for the first time or who is making comments after making
other
comments.  If the add-on is going to really be useful in such an
environment, it needs to do more than just skip through entries by
paragraph
and not give you any information such as what I described. I don't
know
if
this can be done.  I don't know if a forums mode can be developed.
That
is
f o r u m, as discussion forum, not to be confused with what some
people
call forms mode in some browsers for filling out forms.

In short, the add-on has potential and I am not attempting to
discourage
its
further development.  Critics mmay be your best friends in such
situations.
But I think the add-on needs more work and refinement.

and one last thing I forgot to mention earlier:
The crackling sound should be able to be turned on and off. If I'm
reading,
I don't necessarily want to hear extraneous sounds that notify me of
something when I am reading an article and am not interested in
knowing
such
other information.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 6:25 PM
To:nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
Internet


Hello NVDA users

Today I am introducing TextNav add-on for NVDA - a better way to
browse
Internet for the blind!

Have you ever felt that browsing new pages is frustrating when you
couldn't find the content on the page? Try TextNav - it will find the
right content for you in a single keystroke! TextNav is easy to use.
Listen to a quick demo (7minutes long audio):
https://soundcloud.com/user-977282820/textnav-promo

Here is the link to download TextNav:
https://addons.nvda-project.org/files/get.php?file=textnav

TextNav on github:
https://github.com/mltony/nvda-text-nav/

TextNav keystrokes:
* Alt+Shift+Down: Find next paragraph with text.
* Alt+Shift+Up: Find previous paragraph with text.

I hope you enjoy it! Any suggestions are welcome!

Sincerely,
Tony Malykh








.
--
Image NVDA certified expert
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.



Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Kevin Cussick
 

I agree and am just about to download and try thanks for the addon. If I don't like it I just won't use it but keep up the good work.

On 03/12/2018 20:48, Tyler Wood wrote:
Hi,
Just because you know all of the browse commands (I know them enough myself) doesn't mean this is taking them away from you. I do not understand that logic.
Refusing to use this add on just because you know all of the commands doesn't make it any quicker - you're just giving yourself extra steps because you can.
Adblockers do nothing to hide the share on facebook, share on twitter garbage that 99^ of articles come with.
Sarah - claiming that 90 percent of websites is false, then claiming that more websites are filling with cluttered junk is very contradictory lol. This add on means to get rid of that and I for one applaud.
I include amazon in this. The amount of crap I have to sift through before I actually get to the product description is mind boggling.
On 2018-12-03 2:35 p.m., hurrikennyandopo ... wrote:

Hi Tony


Just been taking the add on for a test drive. I agree with you. When i am reading a website with the news on it basically as you already know locate the heading usually with a link then press the enter key to go into the story.


I would then have to jump down a couple of headings then a list box jump to the end of it  then use the read to end command. Then it would come up with like email, face book etc which are links then the story might start. The add on as you said makes it a lot quicker to get to the story I want to read and leaves out the other stuff i do not want it to read.


I know there are people on this list who would use text based browsers i think one was called webbie and it would strip out the extra stuff and just have the text that could be read out which there are people who find it easier to do.


when a person is learning they  do not want information overload like memorizing all the quick navigation keys they only learn the main ones like headings, lists or links and how to go into a page and back a page.


The rest of the commands they can learn at a later date and are still present even though they are using the add on.


I could see a few of our older people using the add on to get to the story quicker without jumping to many hoops.


My self i can see using it to.


Gene nz





On 4/12/2018 9:10 AM, Tony Malykh wrote:
Gene,
I don't see your comments hostile at all. You provide very reasonable
feedback for me, and I really appreciate that, though I don't quite
agree with some of your points.
1. TextNav is indeed supposed to be the easier way. The question is
whether this is good or bad in from the absolute point of view. I
agree it will reduce motivation for people to learn the proper way.
The good thing is it might allow some other people e.g. older people,
to use Internet. This is the trade off I see. Time will decide if it
is good or bad. But again, remember my example with Microsoft Windows?
Exactly the same argument was made, that Windows will make people lazy
and they will not learn the proper way to interact with computer using
command prompt. And then decades went by, and the right way became the
Windows way. So, sometimes, the definition of what's proper can
change. Not today, today as we agree, TextNav is not good enough to
fully replace traditional browse mode commands. But what I'm trying to
say is giv give a chance to the new tools. Give Windows and automatic
transmissions a chance. Nobody would blame you today that you don't
know how to press clutch.
2. You are trying to say that students first should learn Internet the
hard way, and only then try TextNav. I'm not a teacher, but I don't
understand why we cannot reverse the order. We don't learn calculus
before arithmetics. In general this is how education works, we start
with simple things and over the years learn more complicated things.
Why learning screenreaders must be an exception? When you're saying
that students won't learn the traditional browse mode commands because
TextNav is works for them, I can claim that students won't learn
calculus, because they're good enough with 3rd grade arithmetics. I'm
sorry to point that out, I hope you won't consider this to be a sign
of hostility, and I respect your point of view, but I just can't quite
agree with it.
3. I want to promote my add-on. I want more blind people to be aware
of it and at least try it once. I think it is going to be beneficial
for 90% of blind people. But it is very hard to communicate the
message. Last time I tried explainning to people what it really is and
not many people got it. So this time I decided to try marketing
techniques. I do exagerate things, but only a little bit. You might be
right when you want to call it just a reading add-on, but if I call it
a reading add-on, then only two users will actually try it. By calling
it "the new way of browsing Internet" I hope to attract some more
attention. Am I deceptive? Maybe a little bit, but nowhere near as
much as a typical TV commercial.

Sarah,
Please see my comment to Gene about the order of learning things.
I would still defend my 90/90% statement. The example of Amazon you
gave falls into the 10% that's not covered by TextNav - just because
there are form controls there. If a website has buttons and edit
boxes, obviously you cannot navigate it effectively using TextNav.
But let me give you a list of web sites where textNav would greatly
improve your efficiency:
News websites (hundreds of them), forums (thousands of them), blogs
(tens of thouusands, maybe more? whatever), product pages, Wikipedia
and other smaller wiki sites, online documentation sites.
These are just the major categories. Basically all the web sites where
you don't need to interact with form elements and that have some text
on them.

Sam
TextNav looks for text written in full sentences that are separated by periods.


On 12/3/18, Shaun Everiss<sm.everiss@gmail.com>  wrote:
To be honest I won't be getting this, I know how to brouse, to be
honest, even though I was given extensive training for windows and jaws
back in the day, I have a subset of commands I use.

Since I have pulled out of uni and don't have a mainstream job my
commands have dropped.

I need enough to navigate the web, thunderbird, and a few other apps but
I honestly don't use that many comands at all.



On 12/4/2018 6:53 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I agree with jean. I push my students as well as I was pushed to learn
all of the browse commands and I was a beginner. Then and only then
could I learn other ways other easier ways.

Second, 90 percent out of 90 percent of websites? I don't think so.
Many websites are getting harder to use and more cluttered and full of
gunk that the sighted like and the blind hate. Amazon anyone? So. your
second claim is faulse, or soon might be.

On 3 Dec 2018, at 9:22, Tony Malykh wrote:

Gene,
It seems to me all your comments imply that I want to replace browse
mode keystrokes with TextNav. I emphasize, that TextNav does not
replace them, but it should be used in addition to them. I agree some
webdsites can be navigated very well with browse mode commands. I
agree that power users should learn all the browse mode commands. But:
1. TextNav is great for new websites. Even for power users, you can
quickly find out the right content without in-depth study of the
layout of this website.
2. TextNav is great for newbies. Instead of pushing students to learn
twenty five browse mode commands, just show them a single TextNav
keystroke, that can let you browse 90% of content on 90% of web sites.
And then, if they feel like learning more powerful techniques, they
can always learn all 25 of browse mode commands. I still remember
myself trying to learn all these browse mode command like five years
ago when I started to learn screenreadres, and it made me very
frustrated - so much stuff to learn. Why don't teach students a single
command on the first day to give them a teste of Internet, and then
move on to more powerful commands?
3. Older people that I know don't use Internet, because "it's too
complicated". I only try to solve this problem.
4. Again, I emphasize, that if you want to figure out the name of the
user on the forum, or the author of an article, you can always jus go
back to traditional browse mode commands. Again, TextNav is not a
replacement and doesn't strive to be one. However, in my daily
routine, 90% of the time I don't care about the author. I suspect many
NVDA users are like me, but I might be wrong here.
5. Automatic reading mode is stil available as NVDA keystroke. It
wouldn't skip over ads though. I might think of having automatic
reading mode with TextNav, but that's a suggestion for the future
development.

Best
Tony



On 12/2/18, Gene<gsasner@gmail.com>  wrote:
I'll discuss some points:
First, something that I can comment on very briefly.  You only tried
the
skip blocks of links command on one site and, evidently, on one
article.  I
said that on some sites, one method works better and on others, another
does.  The skip blocks of links command is an important and useful
command.

It may be that some people want a very simple way to read articles
on web
pages and might have problems with using more complex ways, as you
say.  My
concern is that many people who can learn other ways that would give
them
far more versatility and who wouldn't have trouble doing so may be
disuaded
from doing so.  So perhaps you should discuss just what this is for
and its
limitations when you promote or describe it. It is a reading add-on
that
allows you to skip to the start of an article and skip all
interruptions to
the article such as groups of links to related material, advertisements
image descriptions, and perhaps other things I haven't thought of.
I think
that making this clear and saying that those who want to use the
Internet in
a wide variety of ways not involving mainly reading, such as music
sites and
search sites, still need to learn and become profficient in the
other ways
of web navigation NVDA offers.  I don't object to the add-on but
there are
many blind people who, because of a lack of knowledge or
self-confidence,
severely limit themselves because they don't realize or believe they
can't
do things they can do.  I'm not sure just how you would present the
add-on
but for a lot of people this would be an important convenience but
you are
extremely limited if you don't know enough about web page navigation
to use
search sites.  Even many of the older people you are discussing, I
suspect,
would want to know how to do basic searches.

When I read a forum, I want to find a solution but what if I don't
have any
idea which might be more likely to work or come from a more
knowledgeable
user?  Being more knowledgeable doesn't necessarily mean the
information is
better but I consider it to be information to be aware of, whether
someone
is a high ranking member of a list, an employee of Microsoft or some
other
relevant company or organization, and other information, if
available that
may help me assess his reliability.  None of this is heard in the
current
way the add-on works.

and there are lots of other kinds of forums.  Some people like to
hang out
on political forums.  they might well want to know who is writing so
they
can see if the person is worth reading and either skipping,
skimming, or
paying close attention to posts of certain authors.
there are an enormous number of forums.  As I said, I don't know if the
add-on can have some sort of forums mode.  I don't have the technical
knowledge to know.

also, you didn't respond to what I said about having an automatic
reading
mode.  This is an important feature.  Many people may use the add-on
to find
the beginning of an article but may not continue to use it to read the
article because they don't want to issue a command every few
sentences while
reading.  If there were an automatic read command, this would allow
people
to read as they would when using the speak to end command. But the
add-on
would skip any extraneous material and read the entire article without
interruption or the need to repeatedly issue the read command.  .

And while this isn't a forum, consider something like the op-ed
pages of a
newspaper.  A bit of information may be provided about guest
columnists that
may be useful to readers.  If someone works at a conservative think
tank,
his views may be very different than someone who works for a liberal
one.
If the person works for a specific company, I want to know that.
That puts
me on guard that his views may be defending the company for which he
works.
If such information is routinely stripped by the add-on, that is
important.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 10:56 PM
To:nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
Internet


Hi Gene,
Thank you for your feedback, I think these are very reasonable
questions you are raising.
1. I didn't claim that TextNav should replace the traditional way of
browsing internet. It should rather augment it, be an addition to the
standard navigation commands.
2. I see a lot of older blind people, for whom using computer is a
burden. You can claim they should still learn the proper way. Or you
can let them use the simpler way and let them enjoy what they can
enjoy with TextNav. Some of them might never be able to learn the
proper way - when you're 80 your brain doesn't work as well as when
you're 20. It is a question of simpler tools versus more powerful
tools. When cars with automatic transmission just appeared people were
claiming they are bad because the drivers will never learn to use the
clutch. Or when Windows appeared, some were claiming that it makes
people stupid, because they never learn the command-line way of unix.
Think of TextNav as a car with automatic transmission. And if you want
to learn more powerful ways to navigate web pages, NVDA browse mode
commands are always there.
3. I agree I might have slightly exaggerated about 13x speedup. But
when I use TextNav myself, I can browse the web many times faster.
4. I never knew of the N command in browse mode. I just tried it on
one web page and it seems to skip over the first paragraph of the
article. So you would have to press it a few times, try to figure out
if you are inside the article, and then go back up until you find the
beginning. All that compared to a single keystroke of TextNav.
5. Crackling sound can be turned off or made quieter in the settings.
6. Often times I just want to read the article. I don't want to read
the name of the author, date of publication, read the description of
the image. Sometimes the article is interesting, and I might want to
find the name of the author. Again, I can always do it with the
standard browse mode command. But Most of the times I don't care. By
skipping over these fields, you save a few seconds every time, but
this accumulates over the day into a much more efficient browsing
experience. Time will show how many NVDA users are like me not
interested in the name of the author.
7. Same thing on the forum. I come to forums to solve my problems,
like in my example, the problem with bluetooth headphones. I don't
care whatsoever what's the nickname of the guy who asked the question,
and I care much less who answered it.

Best regards
Tony


On 12/2/18, Gene<gsasner@gmail.com>  wrote:
I have some comments on your demo for TextNav.  First, it isn't a
substitute
for learning the layout and structures of web pages.  If you use it
before
you know these things, you may not learn to deal with other than
straight
reading situations well.

Your claim that TextNav is thirteen times more efficient when
reading the
page you used is not correct.  it is thirteen times more efficient
if you
don't know how to work with internet pages for reading something
like an
article well, but you used a very inefficient method for your
comparison.
You didn't start at the top of the page and use the skip blocks of
links
command, the letter n.  That gets you much much closer to the article
text
because it skips most of the material on this page before the article
starts.  On some pages, move by heading works better.  On some,
move by
skip
nnavigation works bettter.  on some, move by heading, then using skip
navigation links works better.  On some, the find command works
better.
You
may not find an efficient way to work with a page until you
experiment.
Once you do, you can use other article pages on that site the same
way.
I want to be clear.  I am not saying that the add-on isn't very
useful in
skipping to the first sentence of an article.  But you don't hear the
author, you may not hear introductory material you might want to hear,
and,
if the article is more than two or three paragraphs, it would be
exceedingly
tedious to issue the move to next paragraph command repeatedly. For a
somewhat long news article or a somewhat long magazine article, I
would
imagine you might have to issue the command twenty or thirty or
forty or
more times.  The add-on needs an automated mode for straight reading
uninterruptedly.

And finally, your forum example demonstrates a real deficiency in the
add-on.  It starts reading the text of the first post and skips all
information about who wrote it or how old it is or any other
information
that might be of interest such as what rating the person has for
reliability
or what his credentials are.  Also, as you continue to read and
even if
you
know when a second post is beginning to be read, you don't know who
it is
from.  You can't be sure all the time, I would think, who is
commenting
on
comments for the first time or who is making comments after making
other
comments.  If the add-on is going to really be useful in such an
environment, it needs to do more than just skip through entries by
paragraph
and not give you any information such as what I described. I don't
know
if
this can be done.  I don't know if a forums mode can be developed.
That
is
f o r u m, as discussion forum, not to be confused with what some
people
call forms mode in some browsers for filling out forms.

In short, the add-on has potential and I am not attempting to
discourage
its
further development.  Critics mmay be your best friends in such
situations.
But I think the add-on needs more work and refinement.

and one last thing I forgot to mention earlier:
The crackling sound should be able to be turned on and off. If I'm
reading,
I don't necessarily want to hear extraneous sounds that notify me of
something when I am reading an article and am not interested in
knowing
such
other information.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 6:25 PM
To:nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
Internet


Hello NVDA users

Today I am introducing TextNav add-on for NVDA - a better way to
browse
Internet for the blind!

Have you ever felt that browsing new pages is frustrating when you
couldn't find the content on the page? Try TextNav - it will find the
right content for you in a single keystroke! TextNav is easy to use.
Listen to a quick demo (7minutes long audio):
https://soundcloud.com/user-977282820/textnav-promo

Here is the link to download TextNav:
https://addons.nvda-project.org/files/get.php?file=textnav

TextNav on github:
https://github.com/mltony/nvda-text-nav/

TextNav keystrokes:
* Alt+Shift+Down: Find next paragraph with text.
* Alt+Shift+Up: Find previous paragraph with text.

I hope you enjoy it! Any suggestions are welcome!

Sincerely,
Tony Malykh








.
--
Image NVDA certified expert
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Kevin Cussick
 

I have not yet tested, but will try it later listened to your Promo and could see me at least trying it. I agree with Gene and would like a say all added to it at some point.

On 03/12/2018 20:35, hurrikennyandopo ... wrote:
Hi Tony
Just been taking the add on for a test drive. I agree with you. When i am reading a website with the news on it basically as you already know locate the heading usually with a link then press the enter key to go into the story.
I would then have to jump down a couple of headings then a list box jump to the end of it then use the read to end command. Then it would come up with like email, face book etc which are links then the story might start. The add on as you said makes it a lot quicker to get to the story I want to read and leaves out the other stuff i do not want it to read.
I know there are people on this list who would use text based browsers i think one was called webbie and it would strip out the extra stuff and just have the text that could be read out which there are people who find it easier to do.
when a person is learning they do not want information overload like memorizing all the quick navigation keys they only learn the main ones like headings, lists or links and how to go into a page and back a page.
The rest of the commands they can learn at a later date and are still present even though they are using the add on.
I could see a few of our older people using the add on to get to the story quicker without jumping to many hoops.
My self i can see using it to.
Gene nz
On 4/12/2018 9:10 AM, Tony Malykh wrote:
Gene,
I don't see your comments hostile at all. You provide very reasonable
feedback for me, and I really appreciate that, though I don't quite
agree with some of your points.
1. TextNav is indeed supposed to be the easier way. The question is
whether this is good or bad in from the absolute point of view. I
agree it will reduce motivation for people to learn the proper way.
The good thing is it might allow some other people e.g. older people,
to use Internet. This is the trade off I see. Time will decide if it
is good or bad. But again, remember my example with Microsoft Windows?
Exactly the same argument was made, that Windows will make people lazy
and they will not learn the proper way to interact with computer using
command prompt. And then decades went by, and the right way became the
Windows way. So, sometimes, the definition of what's proper can
change. Not today, today as we agree, TextNav is not good enough to
fully replace traditional browse mode commands. But what I'm trying to
say is giv give a chance to the new tools. Give Windows and automatic
transmissions a chance. Nobody would blame you today that you don't
know how to press clutch.
2. You are trying to say that students first should learn Internet the
hard way, and only then try TextNav. I'm not a teacher, but I don't
understand why we cannot reverse the order. We don't learn calculus
before arithmetics. In general this is how education works, we start
with simple things and over the years learn more complicated things.
Why learning screenreaders must be an exception? When you're saying
that students won't learn the traditional browse mode commands because
TextNav is works for them, I can claim that students won't learn
calculus, because they're good enough with 3rd grade arithmetics. I'm
sorry to point that out, I hope you won't consider this to be a sign
of hostility, and I respect your point of view, but I just can't quite
agree with it.
3. I want to promote my add-on. I want more blind people to be aware
of it and at least try it once. I think it is going to be beneficial
for 90% of blind people. But it is very hard to communicate the
message. Last time I tried explainning to people what it really is and
not many people got it. So this time I decided to try marketing
techniques. I do exagerate things, but only a little bit. You might be
right when you want to call it just a reading add-on, but if I call it
a reading add-on, then only two users will actually try it. By calling
it "the new way of browsing Internet" I hope to attract some more
attention. Am I deceptive? Maybe a little bit, but nowhere near as
much as a typical TV commercial.
Sarah,
Please see my comment to Gene about the order of learning things.
I would still defend my 90/90% statement. The example of Amazon you
gave falls into the 10% that's not covered by TextNav - just because
there are form controls there. If a website has buttons and edit
boxes, obviously you cannot navigate it effectively using TextNav.
But let me give you a list of web sites where textNav would greatly
improve your efficiency:
News websites (hundreds of them), forums (thousands of them), blogs
(tens of thouusands, maybe more? whatever), product pages, Wikipedia
and other smaller wiki sites, online documentation sites.
These are just the major categories. Basically all the web sites where
you don't need to interact with form elements and that have some text
on them.
Sam
TextNav looks for text written in full sentences that are separated by periods.
On 12/3/18, Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@gmail.com><mailto:sm.everiss@gmail.com> wrote:
To be honest I won't be getting this, I know how to brouse, to be
honest, even though I was given extensive training for windows and jaws
back in the day, I have a subset of commands I use.
Since I have pulled out of uni and don't have a mainstream job my
commands have dropped.
I need enough to navigate the web, thunderbird, and a few other apps but
I honestly don't use that many comands at all.
On 12/4/2018 6:53 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I agree with jean. I push my students as well as I was pushed to learn
all of the browse commands and I was a beginner. Then and only then
could I learn other ways other easier ways.
Second, 90 percent out of 90 percent of websites? I don't think so.
Many websites are getting harder to use and more cluttered and full of
gunk that the sighted like and the blind hate. Amazon anyone? So. your
second claim is faulse, or soon might be.
On 3 Dec 2018, at 9:22, Tony Malykh wrote:
Gene,
It seems to me all your comments imply that I want to replace browse
mode keystrokes with TextNav. I emphasize, that TextNav does not
replace them, but it should be used in addition to them. I agree some
webdsites can be navigated very well with browse mode commands. I
agree that power users should learn all the browse mode commands. But:
1. TextNav is great for new websites. Even for power users, you can
quickly find out the right content without in-depth study of the
layout of this website.
2. TextNav is great for newbies. Instead of pushing students to learn
twenty five browse mode commands, just show them a single TextNav
keystroke, that can let you browse 90% of content on 90% of web sites.
And then, if they feel like learning more powerful techniques, they
can always learn all 25 of browse mode commands. I still remember
myself trying to learn all these browse mode command like five years
ago when I started to learn screenreadres, and it made me very
frustrated - so much stuff to learn. Why don't teach students a single
command on the first day to give them a teste of Internet, and then
move on to more powerful commands?
3. Older people that I know don't use Internet, because "it's too
complicated". I only try to solve this problem.
4. Again, I emphasize, that if you want to figure out the name of the
user on the forum, or the author of an article, you can always jus go
back to traditional browse mode commands. Again, TextNav is not a
replacement and doesn't strive to be one. However, in my daily
routine, 90% of the time I don't care about the author. I suspect many
NVDA users are like me, but I might be wrong here.
5. Automatic reading mode is stil available as NVDA keystroke. It
wouldn't skip over ads though. I might think of having automatic
reading mode with TextNav, but that's a suggestion for the future
development.
Best
Tony
On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com><mailto:gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
I'll discuss some points:
First, something that I can comment on very briefly. You only tried
the
skip blocks of links command on one site and, evidently, on one
article. I
said that on some sites, one method works better and on others, another
does. The skip blocks of links command is an important and useful
command.
It may be that some people want a very simple way to read articles
on web
pages and might have problems with using more complex ways, as you
say. My
concern is that many people who can learn other ways that would give
them
far more versatility and who wouldn't have trouble doing so may be
disuaded
from doing so. So perhaps you should discuss just what this is for
and its
limitations when you promote or describe it. It is a reading add-on
that
allows you to skip to the start of an article and skip all
interruptions to
the article such as groups of links to related material, advertisements
image descriptions, and perhaps other things I haven't thought of.
I think
that making this clear and saying that those who want to use the
Internet in
a wide variety of ways not involving mainly reading, such as music
sites and
search sites, still need to learn and become profficient in the
other ways
of web navigation NVDA offers. I don't object to the add-on but
there are
many blind people who, because of a lack of knowledge or
self-confidence,
severely limit themselves because they don't realize or believe they
can't
do things they can do. I'm not sure just how you would present the
add-on
but for a lot of people this would be an important convenience but
you are
extremely limited if you don't know enough about web page navigation
to use
search sites. Even many of the older people you are discussing, I
suspect,
would want to know how to do basic searches.
When I read a forum, I want to find a solution but what if I don't
have any
idea which might be more likely to work or come from a more
knowledgeable
user? Being more knowledgeable doesn't necessarily mean the
information is
better but I consider it to be information to be aware of, whether
someone
is a high ranking member of a list, an employee of Microsoft or some
other
relevant company or organization, and other information, if
available that
may help me assess his reliability. None of this is heard in the
current
way the add-on works.
and there are lots of other kinds of forums. Some people like to
hang out
on political forums. they might well want to know who is writing so
they
can see if the person is worth reading and either skipping,
skimming, or
paying close attention to posts of certain authors.
there are an enormous number of forums. As I said, I don't know if the
add-on can have some sort of forums mode. I don't have the technical
knowledge to know.
also, you didn't respond to what I said about having an automatic
reading
mode. This is an important feature. Many people may use the add-on
to find
the beginning of an article but may not continue to use it to read the
article because they don't want to issue a command every few
sentences while
reading. If there were an automatic read command, this would allow
people
to read as they would when using the speak to end command. But the
add-on
would skip any extraneous material and read the entire article without
interruption or the need to repeatedly issue the read command. .
And while this isn't a forum, consider something like the op-ed
pages of a
newspaper. A bit of information may be provided about guest
columnists that
may be useful to readers. If someone works at a conservative think
tank,
his views may be very different than someone who works for a liberal
one.
If the person works for a specific company, I want to know that.
That puts
me on guard that his views may be defending the company for which he
works.
If such information is routinely stripped by the add-on, that is
important.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 10:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
Internet
Hi Gene,
Thank you for your feedback, I think these are very reasonable
questions you are raising.
1. I didn't claim that TextNav should replace the traditional way of
browsing internet. It should rather augment it, be an addition to the
standard navigation commands.
2. I see a lot of older blind people, for whom using computer is a
burden. You can claim they should still learn the proper way. Or you
can let them use the simpler way and let them enjoy what they can
enjoy with TextNav. Some of them might never be able to learn the
proper way - when you're 80 your brain doesn't work as well as when
you're 20. It is a question of simpler tools versus more powerful
tools. When cars with automatic transmission just appeared people were
claiming they are bad because the drivers will never learn to use the
clutch. Or when Windows appeared, some were claiming that it makes
people stupid, because they never learn the command-line way of unix.
Think of TextNav as a car with automatic transmission. And if you want
to learn more powerful ways to navigate web pages, NVDA browse mode
commands are always there.
3. I agree I might have slightly exaggerated about 13x speedup. But
when I use TextNav myself, I can browse the web many times faster.
4. I never knew of the N command in browse mode. I just tried it on
one web page and it seems to skip over the first paragraph of the
article. So you would have to press it a few times, try to figure out
if you are inside the article, and then go back up until you find the
beginning. All that compared to a single keystroke of TextNav.
5. Crackling sound can be turned off or made quieter in the settings.
6. Often times I just want to read the article. I don't want to read
the name of the author, date of publication, read the description of
the image. Sometimes the article is interesting, and I might want to
find the name of the author. Again, I can always do it with the
standard browse mode command. But Most of the times I don't care. By
skipping over these fields, you save a few seconds every time, but
this accumulates over the day into a much more efficient browsing
experience. Time will show how many NVDA users are like me not
interested in the name of the author.
7. Same thing on the forum. I come to forums to solve my problems,
like in my example, the problem with bluetooth headphones. I don't
care whatsoever what's the nickname of the guy who asked the question,
and I care much less who answered it.
Best regards
Tony
On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com><mailto:gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
I have some comments on your demo for TextNav. First, it isn't a
substitute
for learning the layout and structures of web pages. If you use it
before
you know these things, you may not learn to deal with other than
straight
reading situations well.
Your claim that TextNav is thirteen times more efficient when
reading the
page you used is not correct. it is thirteen times more efficient
if you
don't know how to work with internet pages for reading something
like an
article well, but you used a very inefficient method for your
comparison.
You didn't start at the top of the page and use the skip blocks of
links
command, the letter n. That gets you much much closer to the article
text
because it skips most of the material on this page before the article
starts. On some pages, move by heading works better. On some,
move by
skip
nnavigation works bettter. on some, move by heading, then using skip
navigation links works better. On some, the find command works
better.
You
may not find an efficient way to work with a page until you
experiment.
Once you do, you can use other article pages on that site the same
way.
I want to be clear. I am not saying that the add-on isn't very
useful in
skipping to the first sentence of an article. But you don't hear the
author, you may not hear introductory material you might want to hear,
and,
if the article is more than two or three paragraphs, it would be
exceedingly
tedious to issue the move to next paragraph command repeatedly. For a
somewhat long news article or a somewhat long magazine article, I
would
imagine you might have to issue the command twenty or thirty or
forty or
more times. The add-on needs an automated mode for straight reading
uninterruptedly.
And finally, your forum example demonstrates a real deficiency in the
add-on. It starts reading the text of the first post and skips all
information about who wrote it or how old it is or any other
information
that might be of interest such as what rating the person has for
reliability
or what his credentials are. Also, as you continue to read and
even if
you
know when a second post is beginning to be read, you don't know who
it is
from. You can't be sure all the time, I would think, who is
commenting
on
comments for the first time or who is making comments after making
other
comments. If the add-on is going to really be useful in such an
environment, it needs to do more than just skip through entries by
paragraph
and not give you any information such as what I described. I don't
know
if
this can be done. I don't know if a forums mode can be developed.
That
is
f o r u m, as discussion forum, not to be confused with what some
people
call forms mode in some browsers for filling out forms.
In short, the add-on has potential and I am not attempting to
discourage
its
further development. Critics mmay be your best friends in such
situations.
But I think the add-on needs more work and refinement.
and one last thing I forgot to mention earlier:
The crackling sound should be able to be turned on and off. If I'm
reading,
I don't necessarily want to hear extraneous sounds that notify me of
something when I am reading an article and am not interested in
knowing
such
other information.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 6:25 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
Internet
Hello NVDA users
Today I am introducing TextNav add-on for NVDA - a better way to
browse
Internet for the blind!
Have you ever felt that browsing new pages is frustrating when you
couldn't find the content on the page? Try TextNav - it will find the
right content for you in a single keystroke! TextNav is easy to use.
Listen to a quick demo (7minutes long audio):
https://soundcloud.com/user-977282820/textnav-promo
Here is the link to download TextNav:
https://addons.nvda-project.org/files/get.php?file=textnav
TextNav on github:
https://github.com/mltony/nvda-text-nav/
TextNav keystrokes:
* Alt+Shift+Down: Find next paragraph with text.
* Alt+Shift+Up: Find previous paragraph with text.
I hope you enjoy it! Any suggestions are welcome!
Sincerely,
Tony Malykh
.
--
[Image NVDA certified expert]
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Gene
 

I'll say at this point that I probably won't write more in the thread.  I've said what I have to say and I'vew explained it more clearly as the thread continued and as I saw more clearly what the main issue is and how to present it.  Many people have evidently misunderstood what I said, at least before reading my last explanatory message.  But pretty much anything more I would say would be repetition.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2018 4:34 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

I'm sorry, but I don't know what lists you are referring to.  That is not the case here nor on the lists I'm a member of.  And I didn't say anything about doing things the hardest way possible as being preferred.  See the last message I sent which explains in the best way, what my position is.
 
Comparing blind and sighted people in the way you are doing is invalid.  for one thing, the Internet is designed to be visually intuitive for sighted people.  They don't have to learn nearly as much to use it effectively.  and in your work place, if the training was inadequate, that is the fault of those who prepared and administered the training.  But what does that have to do with what we are talking about?
 
Gene
----- Original message -----
From: Andy
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2018 4:21 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

If this list were composed of sighted persons we wouldn't even be having this discussion.  Whenever topics like this come up on a blind list, there is always a chorus that keeps singing the virtues of doing things the hardest way possible.  I recall in the mid 90s when individual employees at our facility were issues PCs and were expected to use them.  many of the staff were older and had no experience using a PC.  There were classes, but they were designed to be short in duration, and they made many assumptions about the level of experience and ability of the persons taking the class.  It was quite common for people to ask for assistance from coworkers who were more experienced.  That assistance was always gladly given, in fact, I gave much assistance myself.
I do not recall anyone telling someone to read a manual, etc.  But on these lists people are often called out when they ask for assistance, or a developer who wants to address a need is told that their product is either unnecessary or even harmful. The range of experience and ability is just as wide among the blind as among the sighted.  Why can't we demonstrate the same level of understanding and compassion as we did at our facility?  If an add on or software program can enable someone to benefit from computing who might otherwise be deprived of this benefit, why not support it?  There is way too much computer equipment sitting in closets gathering dust because people did not receive the support they needed to learn to use it, and were often put down when they came on lists, chats, etc. and asked for help. I commend Tony for his efforts and wish him success.
 
Andy
 
"He who lives on hope will die of starvation".
Benjamin Franklin
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2018 1:25 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Tony,

         First, thanks much for the time and effort you put in to creating this add-on.

         Although I can agree that a number of points brought up since the initial announcement have some validity, many go well beyond the scope of your add-on alone and could be applied to any number of NVDA add-ons and, in fact, are really separate philosophical and practical issues of their own.

         You're a better man than I, as I know I would be feeling, "No good deed goes unpunished," were I you, and not being nearly so gracious about it.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Gene
 

I'm sorry, but I don't know what lists you are referring to.  That is not the case here nor on the lists I'm a member of.  And I didn't say anything about doing things the hardest way possible as being preferred.  See the last message I sent which explains in the best way, what my position is.
 
Comparing blind and sighted people in the way you are doing is invalid.  for one thing, the Internet is designed to be visually intuitive for sighted people.  They don't have to learn nearly as much to use it effectively.  and in your work place, if the training was inadequate, that is the fault of those who prepared and administered the training.  But what does that have to do with what we are talking about?
 
Gene

----- Original message -----
From: Andy
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2018 4:21 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

If this list were composed of sighted persons we wouldn't even be having this discussion.  Whenever topics like this come up on a blind list, there is always a chorus that keeps singing the virtues of doing things the hardest way possible.  I recall in the mid 90s when individual employees at our facility were issues PCs and were expected to use them.  many of the staff were older and had no experience using a PC.  There were classes, but they were designed to be short in duration, and they made many assumptions about the level of experience and ability of the persons taking the class.  It was quite common for people to ask for assistance from coworkers who were more experienced.  That assistance was always gladly given, in fact, I gave much assistance myself.
I do not recall anyone telling someone to read a manual, etc.  But on these lists people are often called out when they ask for assistance, or a developer who wants to address a need is told that their product is either unnecessary or even harmful. The range of experience and ability is just as wide among the blind as among the sighted.  Why can't we demonstrate the same level of understanding and compassion as we did at our facility?  If an add on or software program can enable someone to benefit from computing who might otherwise be deprived of this benefit, why not support it?  There is way too much computer equipment sitting in closets gathering dust because people did not receive the support they needed to learn to use it, and were often put down when they came on lists, chats, etc. and asked for help. I commend Tony for his efforts and wish him success.
 
Andy
 
"He who lives on hope will die of starvation".
Benjamin Franklin
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2018 1:25 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Tony,

         First, thanks much for the time and effort you put in to creating this add-on.

         Although I can agree that a number of points brought up since the initial announcement have some validity, many go well beyond the scope of your add-on alone and could be applied to any number of NVDA add-ons and, in fact, are really separate philosophical and practical issues of their own.

         You're a better man than I, as I know I would be feeling, "No good deed goes unpunished," were I you, and not being nearly so gracious about it.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Michael Munn
 

Is that  equivilence to Research it feature in  Jaws. 


On Dec 3, 2018, at 3:35 PM, hurrikennyandopo ... <hurrikennyandopo@...> wrote:

Hi Tony


Just been taking the add on for a test drive. I agree with you. When i am reading a website with the news on it basically as you already know locate the heading usually with a link then press the enter key to go into the story.


I would then have to jump down a couple of headings then a list box  jump to the end of it  then use the read to end command. Then it would come up with like email, face book etc which are links then the story might start. The add on as you said makes it a lot quicker to get to the story I want to read and leaves out the other stuff i do not want it to read.


I know there are people on this list who would use text based browsers i think one was called webbie and it would strip out the extra stuff and just have the text that could be read out which there are people who find it easier to do.


when a person is learning they  do not want information overload like memorizing all the quick navigation keys they only learn the main ones like headings, lists or links and how to go into a page and back a page.


The rest of the commands they can learn at a later date and are still present even though they are using the add on.


I could see a few of our older people using the add on to get to the story quicker without jumping to many hoops.


My self i can see using it to.


Gene nz


 



On 4/12/2018 9:10 AM, Tony Malykh wrote:
Gene,
I don't see your comments hostile at all. You provide very reasonable
feedback for me, and I really appreciate that, though I don't quite
agree with some of your points.
1. TextNav is indeed supposed to be the easier way. The question is
whether this is good or bad in from the absolute point of view. I
agree it will reduce motivation for people to learn the proper way.
The good thing is it might allow some other people e.g. older people,
to use Internet. This is the trade off I see. Time will decide if it
is good or bad. But again, remember my example with Microsoft Windows?
Exactly the same argument was made, that Windows will make people lazy
and they will not learn the proper way to interact with computer using
command prompt. And then decades went by, and the right way became the
Windows way. So, sometimes, the definition of what's proper can
change. Not today, today as we agree, TextNav is not good enough to
fully replace traditional browse mode commands. But what I'm trying to
say is giv give a chance to the new tools. Give Windows and automatic
transmissions a chance. Nobody would blame you today that you don't
know how to press clutch.
2. You are trying to say that students first should learn Internet the
hard way, and only then try TextNav. I'm not a teacher, but I don't
understand why we cannot reverse the order. We don't learn calculus
before arithmetics. In general this is how education works, we start
with simple things and over the years learn more complicated things.
Why learning screenreaders must be an exception? When you're saying
that students won't learn the traditional browse mode commands because
TextNav is works for them, I can claim that students won't learn
calculus, because they're good enough with 3rd grade arithmetics. I'm
sorry to point that out, I hope you won't consider this to be a sign
of hostility, and I respect your point of view, but I just can't quite
agree with it.
3. I want to promote my add-on. I want more blind people to be aware
of it and at least try it once. I think it is going to be beneficial
for 90% of blind people. But it is very hard to communicate the
message. Last time I tried explainning to people what it really is and
not many people got it. So this time I decided to try marketing
techniques. I do exagerate things, but only a little bit. You might be
right when you want to call it just a reading add-on, but if I call it
a reading add-on, then only two users will actually try it. By calling
it "the new way of browsing Internet" I hope to attract some more
attention. Am I deceptive? Maybe a little bit, but nowhere near as
much as a typical TV commercial.

Sarah,
Please see my comment to Gene about the order of learning things.
I would still defend my 90/90% statement. The example of Amazon you
gave falls into the 10% that's not covered by TextNav - just because
there are form controls there. If a website has buttons and edit
boxes, obviously you cannot navigate it effectively using TextNav.
But let me give you a list of web sites where textNav would greatly
improve your efficiency:
News websites (hundreds of them), forums (thousands of them), blogs
(tens of thouusands, maybe more? whatever), product pages, Wikipedia
and other smaller wiki sites, online documentation sites.
These are just the major categories. Basically all the web sites where
you don't need to interact with form elements and that have some text
on them.

Sam
TextNav looks for text written in full sentences that are separated by periods.


On 12/3/18, Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@...> wrote:
To be honest I won't be getting this, I know how to brouse, to be
honest, even though I was given extensive training for windows and jaws
back in the day, I have a subset of commands I use.

Since I have pulled out of uni and don't have a mainstream job my
commands have dropped.

I need enough to navigate the web, thunderbird, and a few other apps but
I honestly don't use that many comands at all.



On 12/4/2018 6:53 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I agree with jean. I push my students as well as I was pushed to learn
all of the browse commands and I was a beginner. Then and only then
could I learn other ways other easier ways.

Second, 90 percent out of 90 percent of websites? I don't think so.
Many websites are getting harder to use and more cluttered and full of
gunk that the sighted like and the blind hate. Amazon anyone? So. your
second claim is faulse, or soon might be.

On 3 Dec 2018, at 9:22, Tony Malykh wrote:

Gene,
It seems to me all your comments imply that I want to replace browse
mode keystrokes with TextNav. I emphasize, that TextNav does not
replace them, but it should be used in addition to them. I agree some
webdsites can be navigated very well with browse mode commands. I
agree that power users should learn all the browse mode commands. But:
1. TextNav is great for new websites. Even for power users, you can
quickly find out the right content without in-depth study of the
layout of this website.
2. TextNav is great for newbies. Instead of pushing students to learn
twenty five browse mode commands, just show them a single TextNav
keystroke, that can let you browse 90% of content on 90% of web sites.
And then, if they feel like learning more powerful techniques, they
can always learn all 25 of browse mode commands. I still remember
myself trying to learn all these browse mode command like five years
ago when I started to learn screenreadres, and it made me very
frustrated - so much stuff to learn. Why don't teach students a single
command on the first day to give them a teste of Internet, and then
move on to more powerful commands?
3. Older people that I know don't use Internet, because "it's too
complicated". I only try to solve this problem.
4. Again, I emphasize, that if you want to figure out the name of the
user on the forum, or the author of an article, you can always jus go
back to traditional browse mode commands. Again, TextNav is not a
replacement and doesn't strive to be one. However, in my daily
routine, 90% of the time I don't care about the author. I suspect many
NVDA users are like me, but I might be wrong here.
5. Automatic reading mode is stil available as NVDA keystroke. It
wouldn't skip over ads though. I might think of having automatic
reading mode with TextNav, but that's a suggestion for the future
development.

Best
Tony



On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I'll discuss some points:
First, something that I can comment on very briefly.  You only tried
the
skip blocks of links command on one site and, evidently, on one
article.  I
said that on some sites, one method works better and on others, another
does.  The skip blocks of links command is an important and useful
command.

It may be that some people want a very simple way to read articles
on web
pages and might have problems with using more complex ways, as you
say.  My
concern is that many people who can learn other ways that would give
them
far more versatility and who wouldn't have trouble doing so may be
disuaded
from doing so.  So perhaps you should discuss just what this is for
and its
limitations when you promote or describe it. It is a reading add-on
that
allows you to skip to the start of an article and skip all
interruptions to
the article such as groups of links to related material, advertisements
image descriptions, and perhaps other things I haven't thought of.
I think
that making this clear and saying that those who want to use the
Internet in
a wide variety of ways not involving mainly reading, such as music
sites and
search sites, still need to learn and become profficient in the
other ways
of web navigation NVDA offers.  I don't object to the add-on but
there are
many blind people who, because of a lack of knowledge or
self-confidence,
severely limit themselves because they don't realize or believe they
can't
do things they can do.  I'm not sure just how you would present the
add-on
but for a lot of people this would be an important convenience but
you are
extremely limited if you don't know enough about web page navigation
to use
search sites.  Even many of the older people you are discussing, I
suspect,
would want to know how to do basic searches.

When I read a forum, I want to find a solution but what if I don't
have any
idea which might be more likely to work or come from a more
knowledgeable
user?  Being more knowledgeable doesn't necessarily mean the
information is
better but I consider it to be information to be aware of, whether
someone
is a high ranking member of a list, an employee of Microsoft or some
other
relevant company or organization, and other information, if
available that
may help me assess his reliability.  None of this is heard in the
current
way the add-on works.

and there are lots of other kinds of forums.  Some people like to
hang out
on political forums.  they might well want to know who is writing so
they
can see if the person is worth reading and either skipping,
skimming, or
paying close attention to posts of certain authors.
there are an enormous number of forums.  As I said, I don't know if the
add-on can have some sort of forums mode.  I don't have the technical
knowledge to know.

also, you didn't respond to what I said about having an automatic
reading
mode.  This is an important feature.  Many people may use the add-on
to find
the beginning of an article but may not continue to use it to read the
article because they don't want to issue a command every few
sentences while
reading.  If there were an automatic read command, this would allow
people
to read as they would when using the speak to end command. But the
add-on
would skip any extraneous material and read the entire article without
interruption or the need to repeatedly issue the read command.  .

And while this isn't a forum, consider something like the op-ed
pages of a
newspaper.  A bit of information may be provided about guest
columnists that
may be useful to readers.  If someone works at a conservative think
tank,
his views may be very different than someone who works for a liberal
one.
If the person works for a specific company, I want to know that.
That puts
me on guard that his views may be defending the company for which he
works.
If such information is routinely stripped by the add-on, that is
important.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 10:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
Internet


Hi Gene,
Thank you for your feedback, I think these are very reasonable
questions you are raising.
1. I didn't claim that TextNav should replace the traditional way of
browsing internet. It should rather augment it, be an addition to the
standard navigation commands.
2. I see a lot of older blind people, for whom using computer is a
burden. You can claim they should still learn the proper way. Or you
can let them use the simpler way and let them enjoy what they can
enjoy with TextNav. Some of them might never be able to learn the
proper way - when you're 80 your brain doesn't work as well as when
you're 20. It is a question of simpler tools versus more powerful
tools. When cars with automatic transmission just appeared people were
claiming they are bad because the drivers will never learn to use the
clutch. Or when Windows appeared, some were claiming that it makes
people stupid, because they never learn the command-line way of unix.
Think of TextNav as a car with automatic transmission. And if you want
to learn more powerful ways to navigate web pages, NVDA browse mode
commands are always there.
3. I agree I might have slightly exaggerated about 13x speedup. But
when I use TextNav myself, I can browse the web many times faster.
4. I never knew of the N command in browse mode. I just tried it on
one web page and it seems to skip over the first paragraph of the
article. So you would have to press it a few times, try to figure out
if you are inside the article, and then go back up until you find the
beginning. All that compared to a single keystroke of TextNav.
5. Crackling sound can be turned off or made quieter in the settings.
6. Often times I just want to read the article. I don't want to read
the name of the author, date of publication, read the description of
the image. Sometimes the article is interesting, and I might want to
find the name of the author. Again, I can always do it with the
standard browse mode command. But Most of the times I don't care. By
skipping over these fields, you save a few seconds every time, but
this accumulates over the day into a much more efficient browsing
experience. Time will show how many NVDA users are like me not
interested in the name of the author.
7. Same thing on the forum. I come to forums to solve my problems,
like in my example, the problem with bluetooth headphones. I don't
care whatsoever what's the nickname of the guy who asked the question,
and I care much less who answered it.

Best regards
Tony


On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I have some comments on your demo for TextNav.  First, it isn't a
substitute
for learning the layout and structures of web pages.  If you use it
before
you know these things, you may not learn to deal with other than
straight
reading situations well.

Your claim that TextNav is thirteen times more efficient when
reading the
page you used is not correct.  it is thirteen times more efficient
if you
don't know how to work with internet pages for reading something
like an
article well, but you used a very inefficient method for your
comparison.
You didn't start at the top of the page and use the skip blocks of
links
command, the letter n.  That gets you much much closer to the article
text
because it skips most of the material on this page before the article
starts.  On some pages, move by heading works better.  On some,
move by
skip
nnavigation works bettter.  on some, move by heading, then using skip
navigation links works better.  On some, the find command works
better.
You
may not find an efficient way to work with a page until you
experiment.
Once you do, you can use other article pages on that site the same
way.
I want to be clear.  I am not saying that the add-on isn't very
useful in
skipping to the first sentence of an article.  But you don't hear the
author, you may not hear introductory material you might want to hear,
and,
if the article is more than two or three paragraphs, it would be
exceedingly
tedious to issue the move to next paragraph command repeatedly.  For a
somewhat long news article or a somewhat long magazine article, I
would
imagine you might have to issue the command twenty or thirty or
forty or
more times.  The add-on needs an automated mode for straight reading
uninterruptedly.

And finally, your forum example demonstrates a real deficiency in the
add-on.  It starts reading the text of the first post and skips all
information about who wrote it or how old it is or any other
information
that might be of interest such as what rating the person has for
reliability
or what his credentials are.  Also, as you continue to read and
even if
you
know when a second post is beginning to be read, you don't know who
it is
from.  You can't be sure all the time, I would think, who is
commenting
on
comments for the first time or who is making comments after making
other
comments.  If the add-on is going to really be useful in such an
environment, it needs to do more than just skip through entries by
paragraph
and not give you any information such as what I described. I don't
know
if
this can be done.  I don't know if a forums mode can be developed.
That
is
f o r u m, as discussion forum, not to be confused with what some
people
call forms mode in some browsers for filling out forms.

In short, the add-on has potential and I am not attempting to
discourage
its
further development.  Critics mmay be your best friends in such
situations.
But I think the add-on needs more work and refinement.

and one last thing I forgot to mention earlier:
The crackling sound should be able to be turned on and off. If I'm
reading,
I don't necessarily want to hear extraneous sounds that notify me of
something when I am reading an article and am not interested in
knowing
such
other information.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 6:25 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
Internet


Hello NVDA users

Today I am introducing TextNav add-on for NVDA - a better way to
browse
Internet for the blind!

Have you ever felt that browsing new pages is frustrating when you
couldn't find the content on the page? Try TextNav - it will find the
right content for you in a single keystroke! TextNav is easy to use.
Listen to a quick demo (7minutes long audio):
https://soundcloud.com/user-977282820/textnav-promo

Here is the link to download TextNav:
https://addons.nvda-project.org/files/get.php?file=textnav

TextNav on github:
https://github.com/mltony/nvda-text-nav/

TextNav keystrokes:
* Alt+Shift+Down: Find next paragraph with text.
* Alt+Shift+Up: Find previous paragraph with text.

I hope you enjoy it! Any suggestions are welcome!

Sincerely,
Tony Malykh












.



--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: Collaborative document editing with NVDA

Quentin Christensen
 

https://simplenote.com/ is another one.


On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 8:55 AM Tony Malykh <anton.malykh@...> wrote:
There is also:
http://collabedit.com/
Plain text only, I think it is primarily designed for online coding,
but can be used for any kind of text editing.

On 12/3/18, Quentin Christensen <quentin@...> wrote:
> NVDA works with both Google Docs and Word with their collaborative
> features.
>
> Of course, if you find any issues, do please let me know as I don't use
> those features myself very often.
>
> Quentin.
>
> On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 6:24 AM Sile via Groups.Io <somodhrain=
> googlemail.com@groups.io> wrote:
>
>> Hello
>>
>>
>> Has anyone found a platform (e.g. google docs, Microsoft word, or
>> whatever) that works with NVDA and supports collaborative editing in a
>> robust way?
>>
>>
>> Yours,
>>
>>
>> --Sile
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Quentin Christensen
> Training and Support Manager
>
> Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available:
> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>
> www.nvaccess.org
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
> Twitter: @NVAccess
>
>
>
>





--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Amen, Andy. I couldn't have said it any better. I commend Tony for the hard work he put in to this add-on. Yes, if it makes reading articles on web sites easier, then I say go for it.

 

Rosemarie

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Andy
Sent: Monday, December 3, 2018 2:22 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

 

If this list were composed of sighted persons we wouldn't even be having this discussion.  Whenever topics like this come up on a blind list, there is always a chorus that keeps singing the virtues of doing things the hardest way possible.  I recall in the mid 90s when individual employees at our facility were issues PCs and were expected to use them.  many of the staff were older and had no experience using a PC.  There were classes, but they were designed to be short in duration, and they made many assumptions about the level of experience and ability of the persons taking the class.  It was quite common for people to ask for assistance from coworkers who were more experienced.  That assistance was always gladly given, in fact, I gave much assistance myself.

I do not recall anyone telling someone to read a manual, etc.  But on these lists people are often called out when they ask for assistance, or a developer who wants to address a need is told that their product is either unnecessary or even harmful. The range of experience and ability is just as wide among the blind as among the sighted.  Why can't we demonstrate the same level of understanding and compassion as we did at our facility?  If an add on or software program can enable someone to benefit from computing who might otherwise be deprived of this benefit, why not support it?  There is way too much computer equipment sitting in closets gathering dust because people did not receive the support they needed to learn to use it, and were often put down when they came on lists, chats, etc. and asked for help. I commend Tony for his efforts and wish him success.

 

Andy

 

"He who lives on hope will die of starvation".

Benjamin Franklin

 

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, December 03, 2018 1:25 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

 

Tony,

         First, thanks much for the time and effort you put in to creating this add-on.

         Although I can agree that a number of points brought up since the initial announcement have some validity, many go well beyond the scope of your add-on alone and could be applied to any number of NVDA add-ons and, in fact, are really separate philosophical and practical issues of their own.

         You're a better man than I, as I know I would be feeling, "No good deed goes unpunished," were I you, and not being nearly so gracious about it.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Andy
 


If this list were composed of sighted persons we wouldn't even be having this discussion.  Whenever topics like this come up on a blind list, there is always a chorus that keeps singing the virtues of doing things the hardest way possible.  I recall in the mid 90s when individual employees at our facility were issues PCs and were expected to use them.  many of the staff were older and had no experience using a PC.  There were classes, but they were designed to be short in duration, and they made many assumptions about the level of experience and ability of the persons taking the class.  It was quite common for people to ask for assistance from coworkers who were more experienced.  That assistance was always gladly given, in fact, I gave much assistance myself.
I do not recall anyone telling someone to read a manual, etc.  But on these lists people are often called out when they ask for assistance, or a developer who wants to address a need is told that their product is either unnecessary or even harmful. The range of experience and ability is just as wide among the blind as among the sighted.  Why can't we demonstrate the same level of understanding and compassion as we did at our facility?  If an add on or software program can enable someone to benefit from computing who might otherwise be deprived of this benefit, why not support it?  There is way too much computer equipment sitting in closets gathering dust because people did not receive the support they needed to learn to use it, and were often put down when they came on lists, chats, etc. and asked for help. I commend Tony for his efforts and wish him success.
 
Andy
 
"He who lives on hope will die of starvation".
Benjamin Franklin
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2018 1:25 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Tony,

         First, thanks much for the time and effort you put in to creating this add-on.

         Although I can agree that a number of points brought up since the initial announcement have some validity, many go well beyond the scope of your add-on alone and could be applied to any number of NVDA add-ons and, in fact, are really separate philosophical and practical issues of their own.

         You're a better man than I, as I know I would be feeling, "No good deed goes unpunished," were I you, and not being nearly so gracious about it.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Gene
 

No one said the add-on shouldn't be used.  I have no objection to anyone using it and I already said it is very useful as a reading add-on.  This is more the case now than years ago.  In the old days, lots of sites had printer friendly versions of articles.  Now, these have largely disappeared.  Articles have blocks of links interspersed in the article showing related content and other information.  And then there are advertisements.  So the app is filling an important need.  But that's what it is, a reading app. 
 
I'm saying that if you show someone a very easy way to do what you claim is a very large part of something, they will often be much less motivated and likely to learn the rest of what they should know.  This is different than starting with simple concepts or information and building on it to develop skill and understanding of later material.  It is being promoted as though it eliminates the need to learn more.  If you tell someone that this simple one-command add-on will allow them to do ninety percent of what they want to do on the Internet, the person may well adopt the attitude, I'll just do without the other ten percent. 
 
You can't use Google with the add-on.  Google doesn't display articles.  It performs the essential and crucial function of showing you how to find information, including articles.
 
You can't use Youtube, you can't use the Spotify site, you can't use Amazon.  As I said, it’s a reading add-on.
 
I have no objection to demonstrating how easy it is to read material and a lot of people would be very interested in using it for that.  But it doesn't allow you to do ninety percent of what you want to do on the Internet unless almost all you want to do is read articles. 
I'm not worried about the people who already know how to use the Internet reasonably well or better.  But there are a lot of people who don't and who may get the add-on because they believe that it is a way to avoid learning almost anything. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Tyler Wood
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2018 2:48 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Hi,

Just because you know all of the browse commands (I know them enough myself) doesn't mean this is taking them away from you. I do not understand that logic.

Refusing to use this add on just because you know all of the commands doesn't make it any quicker - you're just giving yourself extra steps because you can.


Adblockers do nothing to hide the share on facebook, share on twitter garbage that 99^ of articles come with.


Sarah - claiming that 90 percent of websites is false, then claiming that more websites are filling with cluttered junk is very contradictory lol. This add on means to get rid of that and I for one applaud.


I include amazon in this. The amount of crap I have to sift through before I actually get to the product description is mind boggling.


On 2018-12-03 2:35 p.m., hurrikennyandopo ... wrote:

Hi Tony


Just been taking the add on for a test drive. I agree with you. When i am reading a website with the news on it basically as you already know locate the heading usually with a link then press the enter key to go into the story.


I would then have to jump down a couple of headings then a list box  jump to the end of it  then use the read to end command. Then it would come up with like email, face book etc which are links then the story might start. The add on as you said makes it a lot quicker to get to the story I want to read and leaves out the other stuff i do not want it to read.


I know there are people on this list who would use text based browsers i think one was called webbie and it would strip out the extra stuff and just have the text that could be read out which there are people who find it easier to do.


when a person is learning they  do not want information overload like memorizing all the quick navigation keys they only learn the main ones like headings, lists or links and how to go into a page and back a page.


The rest of the commands they can learn at a later date and are still present even though they are using the add on.


I could see a few of our older people using the add on to get to the story quicker without jumping to many hoops.


My self i can see using it to.


Gene nz





On 4/12/2018 9:10 AM, Tony Malykh wrote:
Gene,
I don't see your comments hostile at all. You provide very reasonable
feedback for me, and I really appreciate that, though I don't quite
agree with some of your points.
1. TextNav is indeed supposed to be the easier way. The question is
whether this is good or bad in from the absolute point of view. I
agree it will reduce motivation for people to learn the proper way.
The good thing is it might allow some other people e.g. older people,
to use Internet. This is the trade off I see. Time will decide if it
is good or bad. But again, remember my example with Microsoft Windows?
Exactly the same argument was made, that Windows will make people lazy
and they will not learn the proper way to interact with computer using
command prompt. And then decades went by, and the right way became the
Windows way. So, sometimes, the definition of what's proper can
change. Not today, today as we agree, TextNav is not good enough to
fully replace traditional browse mode commands. But what I'm trying to
say is giv give a chance to the new tools. Give Windows and automatic
transmissions a chance. Nobody would blame you today that you don't
know how to press clutch.
2. You are trying to say that students first should learn Internet the
hard way, and only then try TextNav. I'm not a teacher, but I don't
understand why we cannot reverse the order. We don't learn calculus
before arithmetics. In general this is how education works, we start
with simple things and over the years learn more complicated things.
Why learning screenreaders must be an exception? When you're saying
that students won't learn the traditional browse mode commands because
TextNav is works for them, I can claim that students won't learn
calculus, because they're good enough with 3rd grade arithmetics. I'm
sorry to point that out, I hope you won't consider this to be a sign
of hostility, and I respect your point of view, but I just can't quite
agree with it.
3. I want to promote my add-on. I want more blind people to be aware
of it and at least try it once. I think it is going to be beneficial
for 90% of blind people. But it is very hard to communicate the
message. Last time I tried explainning to people what it really is and
not many people got it. So this time I decided to try marketing
techniques. I do exagerate things, but only a little bit. You might be
right when you want to call it just a reading add-on, but if I call it
a reading add-on, then only two users will actually try it. By calling
it "the new way of browsing Internet" I hope to attract some more
attention. Am I deceptive? Maybe a little bit, but nowhere near as
much as a typical TV commercial.

Sarah,
Please see my comment to Gene about the order of learning things.
I would still defend my 90/90% statement. The example of Amazon you
gave falls into the 10% that's not covered by TextNav - just because
there are form controls there. If a website has buttons and edit
boxes, obviously you cannot navigate it effectively using TextNav.
But let me give you a list of web sites where textNav would greatly
improve your efficiency:
News websites (hundreds of them), forums (thousands of them), blogs
(tens of thouusands, maybe more? whatever), product pages, Wikipedia
and other smaller wiki sites, online documentation sites.
These are just the major categories. Basically all the web sites where
you don't need to interact with form elements and that have some text
on them.

Sam
TextNav looks for text written in full sentences that are separated by periods.


On 12/3/18, Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@...> wrote:
To be honest I won't be getting this, I know how to brouse, to be
honest, even though I was given extensive training for windows and jaws
back in the day, I have a subset of commands I use.

Since I have pulled out of uni and don't have a mainstream job my
commands have dropped.

I need enough to navigate the web, thunderbird, and a few other apps but
I honestly don't use that many comands at all.



On 12/4/2018 6:53 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I agree with jean. I push my students as well as I was pushed to learn
all of the browse commands and I was a beginner. Then and only then
could I learn other ways other easier ways.

Second, 90 percent out of 90 percent of websites? I don't think so.
Many websites are getting harder to use and more cluttered and full of
gunk that the sighted like and the blind hate. Amazon anyone? So. your
second claim is faulse, or soon might be.

On 3 Dec 2018, at 9:22, Tony Malykh wrote:

Gene,
It seems to me all your comments imply that I want to replace browse
mode keystrokes with TextNav. I emphasize, that TextNav does not
replace them, but it should be used in addition to them. I agree some
webdsites can be navigated very well with browse mode commands. I
agree that power users should learn all the browse mode commands. But:
1. TextNav is great for new websites. Even for power users, you can
quickly find out the right content without in-depth study of the
layout of this website.
2. TextNav is great for newbies. Instead of pushing students to learn
twenty five browse mode commands, just show them a single TextNav
keystroke, that can let you browse 90% of content on 90% of web sites.
And then, if they feel like learning more powerful techniques, they
can always learn all 25 of browse mode commands. I still remember
myself trying to learn all these browse mode command like five years
ago when I started to learn screenreadres, and it made me very
frustrated - so much stuff to learn. Why don't teach students a single
command on the first day to give them a teste of Internet, and then
move on to more powerful commands?
3. Older people that I know don't use Internet, because "it's too
complicated". I only try to solve this problem.
4. Again, I emphasize, that if you want to figure out the name of the
user on the forum, or the author of an article, you can always jus go
back to traditional browse mode commands. Again, TextNav is not a
replacement and doesn't strive to be one. However, in my daily
routine, 90% of the time I don't care about the author. I suspect many
NVDA users are like me, but I might be wrong here.
5. Automatic reading mode is stil available as NVDA keystroke. It
wouldn't skip over ads though. I might think of having automatic
reading mode with TextNav, but that's a suggestion for the future
development.

Best
Tony



On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I'll discuss some points:
First, something that I can comment on very briefly.  You only tried
the
skip blocks of links command on one site and, evidently, on one
article.  I
said that on some sites, one method works better and on others, another
does.  The skip blocks of links command is an important and useful
command.

It may be that some people want a very simple way to read articles
on web
pages and might have problems with using more complex ways, as you
say.  My
concern is that many people who can learn other ways that would give
them
far more versatility and who wouldn't have trouble doing so may be
disuaded
from doing so.  So perhaps you should discuss just what this is for
and its
limitations when you promote or describe it. It is a reading add-on
that
allows you to skip to the start of an article and skip all
interruptions to
the article such as groups of links to related material, advertisements
image descriptions, and perhaps other things I haven't thought of.
I think
that making this clear and saying that those who want to use the
Internet in
a wide variety of ways not involving mainly reading, such as music
sites and
search sites, still need to learn and become profficient in the
other ways
of web navigation NVDA offers.  I don't object to the add-on but
there are
many blind people who, because of a lack of knowledge or
self-confidence,
severely limit themselves because they don't realize or believe they
can't
do things they can do.  I'm not sure just how you would present the
add-on
but for a lot of people this would be an important convenience but
you are
extremely limited if you don't know enough about web page navigation
to use
search sites.  Even many of the older people you are discussing, I
suspect,
would want to know how to do basic searches.

When I read a forum, I want to find a solution but what if I don't
have any
idea which might be more likely to work or come from a more
knowledgeable
user?  Being more knowledgeable doesn't necessarily mean the
information is
better but I consider it to be information to be aware of, whether
someone
is a high ranking member of a list, an employee of Microsoft or some
other
relevant company or organization, and other information, if
available that
may help me assess his reliability.  None of this is heard in the
current
way the add-on works.

and there are lots of other kinds of forums.  Some people like to
hang out
on political forums.  they might well want to know who is writing so
they
can see if the person is worth reading and either skipping,
skimming, or
paying close attention to posts of certain authors.
there are an enormous number of forums.  As I said, I don't know if the
add-on can have some sort of forums mode.  I don't have the technical
knowledge to know.

also, you didn't respond to what I said about having an automatic
reading
mode.  This is an important feature.  Many people may use the add-on
to find
the beginning of an article but may not continue to use it to read the
article because they don't want to issue a command every few
sentences while
reading.  If there were an automatic read command, this would allow
people
to read as they would when using the speak to end command. But the
add-on
would skip any extraneous material and read the entire article without
interruption or the need to repeatedly issue the read command.  .

And while this isn't a forum, consider something like the op-ed
pages of a
newspaper.  A bit of information may be provided about guest
columnists that
may be useful to readers.  If someone works at a conservative think
tank,
his views may be very different than someone who works for a liberal
one.
If the person works for a specific company, I want to know that.
That puts
me on guard that his views may be defending the company for which he
works.
If such information is routinely stripped by the add-on, that is
important.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 10:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
Internet


Hi Gene,
Thank you for your feedback, I think these are very reasonable
questions you are raising.
1. I didn't claim that TextNav should replace the traditional way of
browsing internet. It should rather augment it, be an addition to the
standard navigation commands.
2. I see a lot of older blind people, for whom using computer is a
burden. You can claim they should still learn the proper way. Or you
can let them use the simpler way and let them enjoy what they can
enjoy with TextNav. Some of them might never be able to learn the
proper way - when you're 80 your brain doesn't work as well as when
you're 20. It is a question of simpler tools versus more powerful
tools. When cars with automatic transmission just appeared people were
claiming they are bad because the drivers will never learn to use the
clutch. Or when Windows appeared, some were claiming that it makes
people stupid, because they never learn the command-line way of unix.
Think of TextNav as a car with automatic transmission. And if you want
to learn more powerful ways to navigate web pages, NVDA browse mode
commands are always there.
3. I agree I might have slightly exaggerated about 13x speedup. But
when I use TextNav myself, I can browse the web many times faster.
4. I never knew of the N command in browse mode. I just tried it on
one web page and it seems to skip over the first paragraph of the
article. So you would have to press it a few times, try to figure out
if you are inside the article, and then go back up until you find the
beginning. All that compared to a single keystroke of TextNav.
5. Crackling sound can be turned off or made quieter in the settings.
6. Often times I just want to read the article. I don't want to read
the name of the author, date of publication, read the description of
the image. Sometimes the article is interesting, and I might want to
find the name of the author. Again, I can always do it with the
standard browse mode command. But Most of the times I don't care. By
skipping over these fields, you save a few seconds every time, but
this accumulates over the day into a much more efficient browsing
experience. Time will show how many NVDA users are like me not
interested in the name of the author.
7. Same thing on the forum. I come to forums to solve my problems,
like in my example, the problem with bluetooth headphones. I don't
care whatsoever what's the nickname of the guy who asked the question,
and I care much less who answered it.

Best regards
Tony


On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I have some comments on your demo for TextNav.  First, it isn't a
substitute
for learning the layout and structures of web pages.  If you use it
before
you know these things, you may not learn to deal with other than
straight
reading situations well.

Your claim that TextNav is thirteen times more efficient when
reading the
page you used is not correct.  it is thirteen times more efficient
if you
don't know how to work with internet pages for reading something
like an
article well, but you used a very inefficient method for your
comparison.
You didn't start at the top of the page and use the skip blocks of
links
command, the letter n.  That gets you much much closer to the article
text
because it skips most of the material on this page before the article
starts.  On some pages, move by heading works better.  On some,
move by
skip
nnavigation works bettter.  on some, move by heading, then using skip
navigation links works better.  On some, the find command works
better.
You
may not find an efficient way to work with a page until you
experiment.
Once you do, you can use other article pages on that site the same
way.
I want to be clear.  I am not saying that the add-on isn't very
useful in
skipping to the first sentence of an article.  But you don't hear the
author, you may not hear introductory material you might want to hear,
and,
if the article is more than two or three paragraphs, it would be
exceedingly
tedious to issue the move to next paragraph command repeatedly.  For a
somewhat long news article or a somewhat long magazine article, I
would
imagine you might have to issue the command twenty or thirty or
forty or
more times.  The add-on needs an automated mode for straight reading
uninterruptedly.

And finally, your forum example demonstrates a real deficiency in the
add-on.  It starts reading the text of the first post and skips all
information about who wrote it or how old it is or any other
information
that might be of interest such as what rating the person has for
reliability
or what his credentials are.  Also, as you continue to read and
even if
you
know when a second post is beginning to be read, you don't know who
it is
from.  You can't be sure all the time, I would think, who is
commenting
on
comments for the first time or who is making comments after making
other
comments.  If the add-on is going to really be useful in such an
environment, it needs to do more than just skip through entries by
paragraph
and not give you any information such as what I described. I don't
know
if
this can be done.  I don't know if a forums mode can be developed.
That
is
f o r u m, as discussion forum, not to be confused with what some
people
call forms mode in some browsers for filling out forms.

In short, the add-on has potential and I am not attempting to
discourage
its
further development.  Critics mmay be your best friends in such
situations.
But I think the add-on needs more work and refinement.

and one last thing I forgot to mention earlier:
The crackling sound should be able to be turned on and off. If I'm
reading,
I don't necessarily want to hear extraneous sounds that notify me of
something when I am reading an article and am not interested in
knowing
such
other information.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 6:25 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
Internet


Hello NVDA users

Today I am introducing TextNav add-on for NVDA - a better way to
browse
Internet for the blind!

Have you ever felt that browsing new pages is frustrating when you
couldn't find the content on the page? Try TextNav - it will find the
right content for you in a single keystroke! TextNav is easy to use.
Listen to a quick demo (7minutes long audio):
https://soundcloud.com/user-977282820/textnav-promo

Here is the link to download TextNav:
https://addons.nvda-project.org/files/get.php?file=textnav

TextNav on github:
https://github.com/mltony/nvda-text-nav/

TextNav keystrokes:
* Alt+Shift+Down: Find next paragraph with text.
* Alt+Shift+Up: Find previous paragraph with text.

I hope you enjoy it! Any suggestions are welcome!

Sincerely,
Tony Malykh









.

--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

MAX <max@...>
 

That fixed it. Thank you very much.


73 (Regards).

Max K 4 O D S.

I've Never Lost the Wonder.

Antique Electronics Site: http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sarah k
Alawami
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2018 11:50 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
Internet

Agreed. I also skip the names of the guys who wrote comments, authors of
articless, Take care. I could care less. I use a reader in safari so I just
go past all of that and vo right fast until I get to the text as I don't
trust vo command n which does the same as the n key in nvda.

On 2 Dec 2018, at 20:56, Tony Malykh wrote:

Hi Gene,
Thank you for your feedback, I think these are very reasonable
questions you are raising.
1. I didn't claim that TextNav should replace the traditional way of
browsing internet. It should rather augment it, be an addition to the
standard navigation commands.
2. I see a lot of older blind people, for whom using computer is a
burden. You can claim they should still learn the proper way. Or you
can let them use the simpler way and let them enjoy what they can
enjoy with TextNav. Some of them might never be able to learn the
proper way - when you're 80 your brain doesn't work as well as when
you're 20. It is a question of simpler tools versus more powerful
tools. When cars with automatic transmission just appeared people were
claiming they are bad because the drivers will never learn to use the
clutch. Or when Windows appeared, some were claiming that it makes
people stupid, because they never learn the command-line way of unix.
Think of TextNav as a car with automatic transmission. And if you want
to learn more powerful ways to navigate web pages, NVDA browse mode
commands are always there.
3. I agree I might have slightly exaggerated about 13x speedup. But
when I use TextNav myself, I can browse the web many times faster.
4. I never knew of the N command in browse mode. I just tried it on
one web page and it seems to skip over the first paragraph of the
article. So you would have to press it a few times, try to figure out
if you are inside the article, and then go back up until you find the
beginning. All that compared to a single keystroke of TextNav.
5. Crackling sound can be turned off or made quieter in the settings.
6. Often times I just want to read the article. I don't want to read
the name of the author, date of publication, read the description of
the image. Sometimes the article is interesting, and I might want to
find the name of the author. Again, I can always do it with the
standard browse mode command. But Most of the times I don't care. By
skipping over these fields, you save a few seconds every time, but
this accumulates over the day into a much more efficient browsing
experience. Time will show how many NVDA users are like me not
interested in the name of the author.
7. Same thing on the forum. I come to forums to solve my problems,
like in my example, the problem with bluetooth headphones. I don't
care whatsoever what's the nickname of the guy who asked the question,
and I care much less who answered it.

Best regards
Tony


On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
I have some comments on your demo for TextNav. First, it isn't a
substitute for learning the layout and structures of web pages. If
you use it before you know these things, you may not learn to deal
with other than straight reading situations well.

Your claim that TextNav is thirteen times more efficient when reading
the page you used is not correct. it is thirteen times more
efficient if you don't know how to work with internet pages for
reading something like an article well, but you used a very
inefficient method for your comparison.
You didn't start at the top of the page and use the skip blocks of
links command, the letter n. That gets you much much closer to the
article text because it skips most of the material on this page
before the article starts. On some pages, move by heading works
better. On some, move by skip nnavigation works bettter. on some,
move by heading, then using skip navigation links works better. On
some, the find command works better. You may not find an efficient
way to work with a page until you experiment.
Once you do, you can use other article pages on that site the same
way.
I want to be clear. I am not saying that the add-on isn't very
useful in skipping to the first sentence of an article. But you
don't hear the author, you may not hear introductory material you
might want to hear, and, if the article is more than two or three
paragraphs, it would be exceedingly tedious to issue the move to next
paragraph command repeatedly. For a somewhat long news article or a
somewhat long magazine article, I would imagine you might have to
issue the command twenty or thirty or forty or more times. The
add-on needs an automated mode for straight reading uninterruptedly.

And finally, your forum example demonstrates a real deficiency in the
add-on. It starts reading the text of the first post and skips all
information about who wrote it or how old it is or any other
information that might be of interest such as what rating the person
has for reliability or what his credentials are. Also, as you
continue to read and even if you know when a second post is beginning
to be read, you don't know who it is from. You can't be sure all the
time, I would think, who is commenting on comments for the first time
or who is making comments after making other comments. If the add-on
is going to really be useful in such an environment, it needs to do
more than just skip through entries by paragraph and not give you any
information such as what I described. I don't know if this can be
done. I don't know if a forums mode can be developed.
That is
f o r u m, as discussion forum, not to be confused with what some
people call forms mode in some browsers for filling out forms.

In short, the add-on has potential and I am not attempting to
discourage its further development. Critics mmay be your best
friends in such situations.
But I think the add-on needs more work and refinement.

and one last thing I forgot to mention earlier:
The crackling sound should be able to be turned on and off. If I'm
reading, I don't necessarily want to hear extraneous sounds that
notify me of something when I am reading an article and am not
interested in knowing such other information.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 6:25 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
Internet


Hello NVDA users

Today I am introducing TextNav add-on for NVDA - a better way to
browse Internet for the blind!

Have you ever felt that browsing new pages is frustrating when you
couldn't find the content on the page? Try TextNav - it will find the
right content for you in a single keystroke! TextNav is easy to use.
Listen to a quick demo (7minutes long audio):
https://soundcloud.com/user-977282820/textnav-promo

Here is the link to download TextNav:
https://addons.nvda-project.org/files/get.php?file=textnav

TextNav on github:
https://github.com/mltony/nvda-text-nav/

TextNav keystrokes:
* Alt+Shift+Down: Find next paragraph with text.
* Alt+Shift+Up: Find previous paragraph with text.

I hope you enjoy it! Any suggestions are welcome!

Sincerely,
Tony Malykh








Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Don H
 

After installing this addon on my Win 10 1809 system and using Google Chrome I enter into a state where NVDA starts reading everything on the page and nothing will stop it. I can not even use alt f4 to close the web site.


Re: Collaborative document editing with NVDA

Tony Malykh
 

There is also:
http://collabedit.com/
Plain text only, I think it is primarily designed for online coding,
but can be used for any kind of text editing.

On 12/3/18, Quentin Christensen <quentin@nvaccess.org> wrote:
NVDA works with both Google Docs and Word with their collaborative
features.

Of course, if you find any issues, do please let me know as I don't use
those features myself very often.

Quentin.

On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 6:24 AM Sile via Groups.Io <somodhrain=
googlemail.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hello


Has anyone found a platform (e.g. google docs, Microsoft word, or
whatever) that works with NVDA and supports collaborative editing in a
robust way?


Yours,


--Sile





--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess




Re: Collaborative document editing with NVDA

Quentin Christensen
 

NVDA works with both Google Docs and Word with their collaborative features.

Of course, if you find any issues, do please let me know as I don't use those features myself very often.

Quentin.

On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 6:24 AM Sile via Groups.Io <somodhrain=googlemail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hello


Has anyone found a platform (e.g. google docs, Microsoft word, or
whatever) that works with NVDA and supports collaborative editing in a
robust way?


Yours,


--Sile







--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Annette Moore
 

Is this add-on different from what would be reader view in firefox? of course, reader view doesn't always work, so on the sites where it doesn't, would I then replace that with this add-on? Or is this something completely different?

Annette

On 12/3/2018 2:48 PM, Tyler Wood wrote:

Hi,

Just because you know all of the browse commands (I know them enough myself) doesn't mean this is taking them away from you. I do not understand that logic.

Refusing to use this add on just because you know all of the commands doesn't make it any quicker - you're just giving yourself extra steps because you can.


Adblockers do nothing to hide the share on facebook, share on twitter garbage that 99^ of articles come with.


Sarah - claiming that 90 percent of websites is false, then claiming that more websites are filling with cluttered junk is very contradictory lol. This add on means to get rid of that and I for one applaud.


I include amazon in this. The amount of crap I have to sift through before I actually get to the product description is mind boggling.


On 2018-12-03 2:35 p.m., hurrikennyandopo ... wrote:

Hi Tony


Just been taking the add on for a test drive. I agree with you. When i am reading a website with the news on it basically as you already know locate the heading usually with a link then press the enter key to go into the story.


I would then have to jump down a couple of headings then a list box  jump to the end of it  then use the read to end command. Then it would come up with like email, face book etc which are links then the story might start. The add on as you said makes it a lot quicker to get to the story I want to read and leaves out the other stuff i do not want it to read.


I know there are people on this list who would use text based browsers i think one was called webbie and it would strip out the extra stuff and just have the text that could be read out which there are people who find it easier to do.


when a person is learning they  do not want information overload like memorizing all the quick navigation keys they only learn the main ones like headings, lists or links and how to go into a page and back a page.


The rest of the commands they can learn at a later date and are still present even though they are using the add on.


I could see a few of our older people using the add on to get to the story quicker without jumping to many hoops.


My self i can see using it to.


Gene nz


 



On 4/12/2018 9:10 AM, Tony Malykh wrote:
Gene,
I don't see your comments hostile at all. You provide very reasonable
feedback for me, and I really appreciate that, though I don't quite
agree with some of your points.
1. TextNav is indeed supposed to be the easier way. The question is
whether this is good or bad in from the absolute point of view. I
agree it will reduce motivation for people to learn the proper way.
The good thing is it might allow some other people e.g. older people,
to use Internet. This is the trade off I see. Time will decide if it
is good or bad. But again, remember my example with Microsoft Windows?
Exactly the same argument was made, that Windows will make people lazy
and they will not learn the proper way to interact with computer using
command prompt. And then decades went by, and the right way became the
Windows way. So, sometimes, the definition of what's proper can
change. Not today, today as we agree, TextNav is not good enough to
fully replace traditional browse mode commands. But what I'm trying to
say is giv give a chance to the new tools. Give Windows and automatic
transmissions a chance. Nobody would blame you today that you don't
know how to press clutch.
2. You are trying to say that students first should learn Internet the
hard way, and only then try TextNav. I'm not a teacher, but I don't
understand why we cannot reverse the order. We don't learn calculus
before arithmetics. In general this is how education works, we start
with simple things and over the years learn more complicated things.
Why learning screenreaders must be an exception? When you're saying
that students won't learn the traditional browse mode commands because
TextNav is works for them, I can claim that students won't learn
calculus, because they're good enough with 3rd grade arithmetics. I'm
sorry to point that out, I hope you won't consider this to be a sign
of hostility, and I respect your point of view, but I just can't quite
agree with it.
3. I want to promote my add-on. I want more blind people to be aware
of it and at least try it once. I think it is going to be beneficial
for 90% of blind people. But it is very hard to communicate the
message. Last time I tried explainning to people what it really is and
not many people got it. So this time I decided to try marketing
techniques. I do exagerate things, but only a little bit. You might be
right when you want to call it just a reading add-on, but if I call it
a reading add-on, then only two users will actually try it. By calling
it "the new way of browsing Internet" I hope to attract some more
attention. Am I deceptive? Maybe a little bit, but nowhere near as
much as a typical TV commercial.

Sarah,
Please see my comment to Gene about the order of learning things.
I would still defend my 90/90% statement. The example of Amazon you
gave falls into the 10% that's not covered by TextNav - just because
there are form controls there. If a website has buttons and edit
boxes, obviously you cannot navigate it effectively using TextNav.
But let me give you a list of web sites where textNav would greatly
improve your efficiency:
News websites (hundreds of them), forums (thousands of them), blogs
(tens of thouusands, maybe more? whatever), product pages, Wikipedia
and other smaller wiki sites, online documentation sites.
These are just the major categories. Basically all the web sites where
you don't need to interact with form elements and that have some text
on them.

Sam
TextNav looks for text written in full sentences that are separated by periods.


On 12/3/18, Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@...> wrote:
To be honest I won't be getting this, I know how to brouse, to be
honest, even though I was given extensive training for windows and jaws
back in the day, I have a subset of commands I use.

Since I have pulled out of uni and don't have a mainstream job my
commands have dropped.

I need enough to navigate the web, thunderbird, and a few other apps but
I honestly don't use that many comands at all.



On 12/4/2018 6:53 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I agree with jean. I push my students as well as I was pushed to learn
all of the browse commands and I was a beginner. Then and only then
could I learn other ways other easier ways.

Second, 90 percent out of 90 percent of websites? I don't think so.
Many websites are getting harder to use and more cluttered and full of
gunk that the sighted like and the blind hate. Amazon anyone? So. your
second claim is faulse, or soon might be.

On 3 Dec 2018, at 9:22, Tony Malykh wrote:

Gene,
It seems to me all your comments imply that I want to replace browse
mode keystrokes with TextNav. I emphasize, that TextNav does not
replace them, but it should be used in addition to them. I agree some
webdsites can be navigated very well with browse mode commands. I
agree that power users should learn all the browse mode commands. But:
1. TextNav is great for new websites. Even for power users, you can
quickly find out the right content without in-depth study of the
layout of this website.
2. TextNav is great for newbies. Instead of pushing students to learn
twenty five browse mode commands, just show them a single TextNav
keystroke, that can let you browse 90% of content on 90% of web sites.
And then, if they feel like learning more powerful techniques, they
can always learn all 25 of browse mode commands. I still remember
myself trying to learn all these browse mode command like five years
ago when I started to learn screenreadres, and it made me very
frustrated - so much stuff to learn. Why don't teach students a single
command on the first day to give them a teste of Internet, and then
move on to more powerful commands?
3. Older people that I know don't use Internet, because "it's too
complicated". I only try to solve this problem.
4. Again, I emphasize, that if you want to figure out the name of the
user on the forum, or the author of an article, you can always jus go
back to traditional browse mode commands. Again, TextNav is not a
replacement and doesn't strive to be one. However, in my daily
routine, 90% of the time I don't care about the author. I suspect many
NVDA users are like me, but I might be wrong here.
5. Automatic reading mode is stil available as NVDA keystroke. It
wouldn't skip over ads though. I might think of having automatic
reading mode with TextNav, but that's a suggestion for the future
development.

Best
Tony



On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I'll discuss some points:
First, something that I can comment on very briefly.  You only tried
the
skip blocks of links command on one site and, evidently, on one
article.  I
said that on some sites, one method works better and on others, another
does.  The skip blocks of links command is an important and useful
command.

It may be that some people want a very simple way to read articles
on web
pages and might have problems with using more complex ways, as you
say.  My
concern is that many people who can learn other ways that would give
them
far more versatility and who wouldn't have trouble doing so may be
disuaded
from doing so.  So perhaps you should discuss just what this is for
and its
limitations when you promote or describe it. It is a reading add-on
that
allows you to skip to the start of an article and skip all
interruptions to
the article such as groups of links to related material, advertisements
image descriptions, and perhaps other things I haven't thought of.
I think
that making this clear and saying that those who want to use the
Internet in
a wide variety of ways not involving mainly reading, such as music
sites and
search sites, still need to learn and become profficient in the
other ways
of web navigation NVDA offers.  I don't object to the add-on but
there are
many blind people who, because of a lack of knowledge or
self-confidence,
severely limit themselves because they don't realize or believe they
can't
do things they can do.  I'm not sure just how you would present the
add-on
but for a lot of people this would be an important convenience but
you are
extremely limited if you don't know enough about web page navigation
to use
search sites.  Even many of the older people you are discussing, I
suspect,
would want to know how to do basic searches.

When I read a forum, I want to find a solution but what if I don't
have any
idea which might be more likely to work or come from a more
knowledgeable
user?  Being more knowledgeable doesn't necessarily mean the
information is
better but I consider it to be information to be aware of, whether
someone
is a high ranking member of a list, an employee of Microsoft or some
other
relevant company or organization, and other information, if
available that
may help me assess his reliability.  None of this is heard in the
current
way the add-on works.

and there are lots of other kinds of forums.  Some people like to
hang out
on political forums.  they might well want to know who is writing so
they
can see if the person is worth reading and either skipping,
skimming, or
paying close attention to posts of certain authors.
there are an enormous number of forums.  As I said, I don't know if the
add-on can have some sort of forums mode.  I don't have the technical
knowledge to know.

also, you didn't respond to what I said about having an automatic
reading
mode.  This is an important feature.  Many people may use the add-on
to find
the beginning of an article but may not continue to use it to read the
article because they don't want to issue a command every few
sentences while
reading.  If there were an automatic read command, this would allow
people
to read as they would when using the speak to end command. But the
add-on
would skip any extraneous material and read the entire article without
interruption or the need to repeatedly issue the read command.  .

And while this isn't a forum, consider something like the op-ed
pages of a
newspaper.  A bit of information may be provided about guest
columnists that
may be useful to readers.  If someone works at a conservative think
tank,
his views may be very different than someone who works for a liberal
one.
If the person works for a specific company, I want to know that.
That puts
me on guard that his views may be defending the company for which he
works.
If such information is routinely stripped by the add-on, that is
important.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 10:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
Internet


Hi Gene,
Thank you for your feedback, I think these are very reasonable
questions you are raising.
1. I didn't claim that TextNav should replace the traditional way of
browsing internet. It should rather augment it, be an addition to the
standard navigation commands.
2. I see a lot of older blind people, for whom using computer is a
burden. You can claim they should still learn the proper way. Or you
can let them use the simpler way and let them enjoy what they can
enjoy with TextNav. Some of them might never be able to learn the
proper way - when you're 80 your brain doesn't work as well as when
you're 20. It is a question of simpler tools versus more powerful
tools. When cars with automatic transmission just appeared people were
claiming they are bad because the drivers will never learn to use the
clutch. Or when Windows appeared, some were claiming that it makes
people stupid, because they never learn the command-line way of unix.
Think of TextNav as a car with automatic transmission. And if you want
to learn more powerful ways to navigate web pages, NVDA browse mode
commands are always there.
3. I agree I might have slightly exaggerated about 13x speedup. But
when I use TextNav myself, I can browse the web many times faster.
4. I never knew of the N command in browse mode. I just tried it on
one web page and it seems to skip over the first paragraph of the
article. So you would have to press it a few times, try to figure out
if you are inside the article, and then go back up until you find the
beginning. All that compared to a single keystroke of TextNav.
5. Crackling sound can be turned off or made quieter in the settings.
6. Often times I just want to read the article. I don't want to read
the name of the author, date of publication, read the description of
the image. Sometimes the article is interesting, and I might want to
find the name of the author. Again, I can always do it with the
standard browse mode command. But Most of the times I don't care. By
skipping over these fields, you save a few seconds every time, but
this accumulates over the day into a much more efficient browsing
experience. Time will show how many NVDA users are like me not
interested in the name of the author.
7. Same thing on the forum. I come to forums to solve my problems,
like in my example, the problem with bluetooth headphones. I don't
care whatsoever what's the nickname of the guy who asked the question,
and I care much less who answered it.

Best regards
Tony


On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I have some comments on your demo for TextNav.  First, it isn't a
substitute
for learning the layout and structures of web pages.  If you use it
before
you know these things, you may not learn to deal with other than
straight
reading situations well.

Your claim that TextNav is thirteen times more efficient when
reading the
page you used is not correct.  it is thirteen times more efficient
if you
don't know how to work with internet pages for reading something
like an
article well, but you used a very inefficient method for your
comparison.
You didn't start at the top of the page and use the skip blocks of
links
command, the letter n.  That gets you much much closer to the article
text
because it skips most of the material on this page before the article
starts.  On some pages, move by heading works better.  On some,
move by
skip
nnavigation works bettter.  on some, move by heading, then using skip
navigation links works better.  On some, the find command works
better.
You
may not find an efficient way to work with a page until you
experiment.
Once you do, you can use other article pages on that site the same
way.
I want to be clear.  I am not saying that the add-on isn't very
useful in
skipping to the first sentence of an article.  But you don't hear the
author, you may not hear introductory material you might want to hear,
and,
if the article is more than two or three paragraphs, it would be
exceedingly
tedious to issue the move to next paragraph command repeatedly.  For a
somewhat long news article or a somewhat long magazine article, I
would
imagine you might have to issue the command twenty or thirty or
forty or
more times.  The add-on needs an automated mode for straight reading
uninterruptedly.

And finally, your forum example demonstrates a real deficiency in the
add-on.  It starts reading the text of the first post and skips all
information about who wrote it or how old it is or any other
information
that might be of interest such as what rating the person has for
reliability
or what his credentials are.  Also, as you continue to read and
even if
you
know when a second post is beginning to be read, you don't know who
it is
from.  You can't be sure all the time, I would think, who is
commenting
on
comments for the first time or who is making comments after making
other
comments.  If the add-on is going to really be useful in such an
environment, it needs to do more than just skip through entries by
paragraph
and not give you any information such as what I described. I don't
know
if
this can be done.  I don't know if a forums mode can be developed.
That
is
f o r u m, as discussion forum, not to be confused with what some
people
call forms mode in some browsers for filling out forms.

In short, the add-on has potential and I am not attempting to
discourage
its
further development.  Critics mmay be your best friends in such
situations.
But I think the add-on needs more work and refinement.

and one last thing I forgot to mention earlier:
The crackling sound should be able to be turned on and off. If I'm
reading,
I don't necessarily want to hear extraneous sounds that notify me of
something when I am reading an article and am not interested in
knowing
such
other information.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 6:25 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
Internet


Hello NVDA users

Today I am introducing TextNav add-on for NVDA - a better way to
browse
Internet for the blind!

Have you ever felt that browsing new pages is frustrating when you
couldn't find the content on the page? Try TextNav - it will find the
right content for you in a single keystroke! TextNav is easy to use.
Listen to a quick demo (7minutes long audio):
https://soundcloud.com/user-977282820/textnav-promo

Here is the link to download TextNav:
https://addons.nvda-project.org/files/get.php?file=textnav

TextNav on github:
https://github.com/mltony/nvda-text-nav/

TextNav keystrokes:
* Alt+Shift+Down: Find next paragraph with text.
* Alt+Shift+Up: Find previous paragraph with text.

I hope you enjoy it! Any suggestions are welcome!

Sincerely,
Tony Malykh









.

--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.