Indeed Austin!  I think the misconception is that any malicious hacker can edit the code of any open source project - which completely misses how open source projects work.  Yes, anyone can submit a pull request (submit code) for NVDA, but before it goes into the final product, it needs to be reviewed by the core developers, and if you download NVDA from the official source, it's just as robust and secure as downloading any other (closed or open source) program from its official download page.

Also, I must apologise to Kelby - I inadvertently typed "Kelly" in my previous email, so my apologies Kelby!

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 3:34 PM Austin Pinto <austinpinto.xaviers@...> wrote:

if open source software are not secure how is Linux powering most web servers?
some1 can make changes to the Linux kernel and do what they want.

On 8/26/19, Quentin Christensen <quentin@...> wrote:
> Hi Kelly,
>
> I see the skim reading question has been addressed, and I'll leave others
> to answer which screen reader they prefer, but in terms of using NVDA in a
> work environment, we certainly do have a lot of users who use NVDA in that
> context, both employees and also employers or institutions setting up NVDA
> in say, university labs, libraries or other public computers.
>
> For anyone looking into this either as an employer or an employee looking
> for information for their workplace, we have a page at
> https://www.nvaccess.org/corporate-government/ which answers a lot of
> common questions (including the security options within NVDA, and
> addressing the (unfounded) concern around the security of open-source
> software.
>
> If anyone (or any potential employers) have any lingering concerns, please
> do get in touch (or get them in touch) with us - info@... is the
> easiest way - and we'd be happy to discuss any concerns.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Quentin.
>
> On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 9:38 PM kelby carlson <kelbycarlson@...>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi, everyone,
>>
>> I hope this isn't too off-topic. I recently heard an argument that NVDA
>> is
>> bad for blind prospect's in employment because it is the "dumbed down"
>> solution. The person arguing this elaborated, saying that NVDA is not
>> customizable/flexible enough (too chatty"), that it was not able to be
>> scripted as easily, it didn't work well with as much proprietary
>> software,
>> and that it wouldn't be allowed on secure environments due to being open
>> source.
>>
>> So my question is this: how many people here use NVDA for work, and is
>> there a notable dilerence in level of usability with JAWS?
>>
>> Also, does NVDA have a skim reading feature like JAWS?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Quentin Christensen
> Training and Support Manager
>
> Web: www.nvaccess.org
> Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
> Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/
> User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
> Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>
>
>
>
>


--
search for me on facebook, google+, orkut..
austinpinto.xaviers@...
follow me on twitter.
austinmpinto
contact me on skype.
austin.pinto3

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Web: www.nvaccess.org 

Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess

On Aug 25, 2019, at 11:58 AM, Vincent Le Goff <vincent.legoff.srs@...> wrote:

Hi everyone,


This has been reported for a few weeks or months and things are getting worse, so I'm afraid I'll have to leave the Thunderbird community. The client is getting extremely sluggish. It behaves well for sighted users but the thing is not reporting information to NVDA in less than a few seconds for each key press, especially for us unfortunate relying on Braille. Enough is enough. Thunderbird served its purpose but I need a fast email client and can't spend 2 hours reading my 100 daily emails (yep, I happen to receive lots of emails).


But this "ragequit" will pose some problems. The first, and obvious, is: what to use now? Relying on Microsoft products doesn't sit too well, I'm already doing a lot of that, but it seems there aren't so many choices. For awhile I heard about an open-source email client specifically created for accessibility, but I can't remember what the name was, who created it, and Google can't help me.


So the debate is open: let's avoid the flamewar if possible, but what are you using? What would be more fitting with NVDA? I have a few requirements:


- I'm running on Windows 10 (64-bit). Can't do without that.

- I have two accounts and possibly three, so I need to have support for several email accounts and simple switches between them.

- I need support for iMap, which is basically the only protocol I used to retreieve messages.

- Support for simple text and HTML content is obviously a strong bonus.


Thanks in advance for your advice!


Vincent

It appears to me that you are trying much too hard from what looks to me to be a defend NVDA position rather than a what is in the real world position.

The world is changing.  15 years ago we couldn't have this conversation at all.  Now it's a hot debate.  I'm successfully using NVDA in a variety of real world situations every day for work and school.  If it isn't perfect, it has risen to every challenge, and I have certainly not taken the time to master advanced features or experiment with official add-ons that would greatly enhance my productivity.  Interest I have, time not so much.  I'm also substantially envolved in suing companies for discrimination and creating employment programs for employers and blind employees in Canada.  I also handle some high level accessibility testing and quality analysis.  I'm just about to start a contract with Nelson Publishing for example to do various types of software quality control and accessibility evaluation.  I've also done significant paid training on jaws, and I assure you, my jaws training customers are not so happy campers.  I hate unhappy customers, especially when there in't a damn thing I can do about it.  I think my experience makes my opinion count for something, but unless supported by fact, it remains just that, an opinion.

NVDA has no way for the user to designate frames and have things happen in those frames.  There may be technical reasons why NVDA can't have that feature.  But it is a significant deficiency for some, perhaps many, work situations and other settings where customization is necessary. 

Frames are a neat feature.  I used them a fair bit and often set them up for training customers to do various things.  Frames aren't exactly the most stable solution though.  If the size or position of the program window changes your frames start doing very funny things.  If your software gets an upgrade the position of features can be reset in the interface, or jaws can fail to recognize the new version as the same software altogether.  The script files that generate the frames can get corupted.  All kinds of things can happen.  Even with voiceover hotspots which are a lot easier to implement than frames, you get most of these issues.  It's infinitely more reliable to expose all UI elements to a standard API, and let a screen reader interact with them directly.  The elements can go anywhere on the screen, you get more events, and standard keyboard shortcuts can be used.  All in theory of course, but significant development work has proven the theory and this is the direction the market is headed.

Can NVDA be made to indicate a capital letter when using read to end or up and down arrowing, reading by line?  This is important in the workplace and anywhere else where people proof materials such as reports or papers, as in schools and colleges. 

I don't know the answer to this.  Though it could potentially be useful to me in my programming I get so much information from speech that I haven't missed this piece.  However, my word processor and various code editors will point out misuse of capitals, and find and replace will let me quickly match case on any instance of a variable or proper noun.

Also, it is my recollection, that JAWS can be made to indicate extra spaces in a document.  I suspect it can indicate other things such as two periods, etc, when reading or moving line by line.  Can NVDA do that?

NVDA does have support for repeated text, but I have never had a use for anything as fine tuned as what you're describing.  I leave two spaces between sentences as a matter of course, and so having that announced might not be as usefull as all that.

While it may be that standards are being implemented more in software, I doubt the implementation is anywhere near adequate in the wide range of programs used by businesses.

Of course not.  It may take another decade or two before the trend is fully actualized.  Ontario for example has a barrier free target of 2025.  They'll never make it, even though efforts are ramping up. 

It's a trend powered by massive legal precedent and legislation around the world and backed by a groundswell of social innovation in which NV Access is a world leader.  It's benefits to us are unparalelled.  why would we bary our heads in the sand and hope the change never comes?  In this case, I believe it's better to embrace the change and, in as much as possible and desireable, direct the change so that we get the maximum benefit from it.

----- Original Message -----

From: erik burggraaf
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 1:27 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in Emploandenp

Hi Kelby
On August 25, 2019 7:39:31 AM "kelby carlson" <kelbycarlson@...> wrote:

I hope this isn't too off-topic. I recently heard an argument that NVDA is
bad for blind prospect's in employment because it is the "dumbed down"
solution.

That sounds like the blather of some one who recommended commercial screen
readers for 20 years and is now having their apple cart upset.  I've seen
this time and time again and will keep seeing it as long as accessibility
is a thing.  When some one has to use dirision rather than fact to steer
you away from one product and ttowards another, an alarm bell should shreek
in your head.

The person arguing this elaborated, saying that NVDA is not
customizable/flexible enough (too chatty"),

This is a matter of personal preference, but I can make NVDA do the common
things such as punctuation level that I sometimes need to configure.

that it was not able to be scripted as easily,

Now, I have heard argued the other point that NVDA is easier to scrypt than
jaws and I subscribe to this view.  Consider, there are many more python
programmers in the world than jaws scripters.  A company can script NVDA in
house using their own IT department.  Otherwise, the company needs to
outsource jaws scripting to an access technology professional.  The prices
I have seen quoted range from $500 per hour to $150 per line.
it didn't work well with as much proprietary software,

An argument that shows no understanding of access technology trends.  It is
no longer the purview of a screen reader to work with particular software.
In the current and emerging model, an operating system creates
accessibility API's that comply with recognized standards.  Screen readers
provide access using the API's and standards.  Software manufacturers are
increasingly  legally and socially obligated to comply with accessibility
standards and implement API's and ffeatures for accessibility provided by
the system.  Employers are increasingly legally and socially obligated to
procure technology hardware and software that complies with accessibility
standards so that it can work with access technologies.  NVDA has been
considered the most standards compliant screen rreader for several years as
far as I know,.

and that it wouldn't be allowed on secure environments due to being open
source.

Extrordinarily foolish.  If open source software is insecure, why is it
powering the commercial internet?  If commercial software is inherantly
secure, why do we need to spend billians of dollars protecting windows
against viruses?  NVD'S licencing makes it time and cost efficient to
install across large networks such as call centre floors holding thousands
of computer workstations.  If your corporate network is secure, than
running NVDA can't possibly be less secure  than running say adobe reader,
which is a known constantly volnerable commercial product.

So my question is this: how many people here use NVDA for work,

I do.  I'm a compuuter programming student working as a web application
developer for wholenote media in Toronto.  I've experienced some of the
things members are saying about programming tools such as long delays using
intelisense.  Not 30 seconds but finger-chompingly long lag.  This is the
fault of software developers such as Microsoft for not complying with
standards or even properly implementing their own API's.  At least, if you
want me to consider that there might be something in NVDA causing severe
lag in microsoft intelisense, how about giving us full access to xaml
designer, rad tools, and unit testing among other things.  If ms could say
their product was up to snuff, then I'd consider that there's an
ineficiency in NVDA.  Otherwise, autocomplete works well for me in browsers
and in VSCode though I haven't tried in notepadplusplus with the add on.
We can talk about it when visual studio becomes truly viable for accessibility.

and is there a notable dilerence in level of usability with JAWS?

I couldn't speak to this.  I haven't used jaws since the days of 4.5.  I
have provided some computer training on jaws systems though and have
experienced significant frustration using google chrome, excel 2016,
windows 10 mail, and other things.  In helping jaws users the last year or
so, I've seen an issue where displaying web content poops out.  Jaws
scripts still have a bent for corrupting themselves and needing to be
re-installed.  And they still haven't figured out how to deal with issues
such as laptops switching video cards for various power profiles and
ditching the authorization.

I was at the college last week getting set up for my fall semester classes.
When I sat down with my access technologist, a nondisabled college
employee, he imediately expressed frustration to me over use of jaws in the
college.  He told me that in general nvda was working much better on
college systems than jaws, nvda is superior at the maths I have to do this
semester compared to jaws, and he thought for it's effectiveness, jaws was
way over priced.  This is a complete turnaround from 2.5 years ago when I
was registering for courses.  At that time, jaws was everything according
to this guy.  He was extremely skeptical of NVDA and only implemented it
for me because I insisted.  He was also dead set against mac and has had to
rethink that position too.  :-)

I've told the story many times about going into the interview at the call
centre back in 16.  It looked like they were gung hoe to hire me.  Their IT
guy that I was working with said, "thank god you really wanted NVDA.  Jaws
won't even load up on our systems for testing."  He also told me they would
script NVDA in house using their python programmers.  I didn't get hired,
but I don't think it had anything to do with  equipment and resources.

Hope this helps,

Hi Ibrahim,


As far as I know, there are two possibilities: either use WhatsApp web as you suggested, or use the desktop application.  As far as accessibility goes, both might be somewhat equivalent, because the desktop application actually uses a web rendering.  I would think the website itself is more accessible, if only a little.  I used the desktop application for awhile and would have tried the web version if that weren't for this scan-your-PC-screen-with-your-iphone login that I can't possibly do alone (at least, I didn't find out how).


Desktop app (Windows 8 and higher, 32-bit): https://web.whatsapp.com/desktop/windows/release/ia32/WhatsAppSetup.exe

Whatsapp web: https://web.whatsapp.com


HTH,


Vincent

On 8/21/2019 4:20 AM, Ibrahim Abedrabbo wrote:

Hello folks,

Are there any add ons for accessing Whatsapp Web with NVDA? If so, where can I find it? What is the best way to access whatsapp on the PC with NVDA?

Any hints would be appreciated.

Regards,

Ibrahim

Hi Kelly,

I see the skim reading question has been addressed, and I'll leave others to answer which screen reader they prefer, but in terms of using NVDA in a work environment, we certainly do have a lot of users who use NVDA in that context, both employees and also employers or institutions setting up NVDA in say, university labs, libraries or other public computers.

For anyone looking into this either as an employer or an employee looking for information for their workplace, we have a page at https://www.nvaccess.org/corporate-government/ which answers a lot of common questions (including the security options within NVDA, and addressing the (unfounded) concern around the security of open-source software.

If anyone (or any potential employers) have any lingering concerns, please do get in touch (or get them in touch) with us - info@... is the easiest way - and we'd be happy to discuss any concerns.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 9:38 PM kelby carlson <kelbycarlson@...> wrote:

Hi, everyone,

I hope this isn't too off-topic. I recently heard an argument that NVDA is bad for blind prospect's in employment because it is the "dumbed down" solution. The person arguing this elaborated, saying that NVDA is not customizable/flexible enough (too chatty"), that it was not able to be scripted as easily, it didn't work well with as much proprietary software, and that it wouldn't be allowed on secure environments due to being open source.

So my question is this: how many people here use NVDA for work, and is there a notable dilerence in level of usability with JAWS?

Also, does NVDA have a skim reading feature like JAWS?

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Web: www.nvaccess.org 

Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess

I dare to create a new thread to discuss this issue more.  So just to
recap: some of us (not all of us) have experienced significant lags in
Thunderbird over a period ranging from a few weeks to a year or so.
Hard to pinpoint the issue and since a lot of users didn't experience
this, the issue was neither critical not even proven (hard to prove a
lag, by all means).


This could apply to other email clients, it seems.  As far as I'm
concerned, the problem was that my inbox was crowded.  Last I checked I
had around 12K emails in only one folder and the older emails had been
sent in 2009.  I had gone over cleaning up this folder and removing what
I didn't care to keep, but there were a lot of emails I simply archived
because I wanted to keep a track. And because I'm using iMap (several
devices to keep in sync, I couldn't very well use Pop3), these emails
were sent to every client.


A (bug) was discovered on Gmail accounts.  Deleted emails, by default,
weren't deleted at all, just kept in a separate folder in Gmail which
was a poor fix and didn't exactly solve my problem. But more
importantly, I went to the Gmail settings and asked it to only send me
1000 emails in a single folder at most.  And after a painful and slow
client sync, I find Thunderbird so much more responsive. Was it really
all that took?  And if so, who's responsible?  Is it logical for NVDA to
lag that much in a simple list when the said list has around 10K
entries?  Maybe yes, maybe not.  Maybe Thunderbird itself, despite its
"caching" and "compacting" doesn't handle the situation very well, at
least for users relying on assistive technology.  It might be worth
reporting their way, but it probably is worth discussing here
beforehand.  Besides, Thunderbird might not be the only one suffering
from this issue.  And this "fix" might not fix anything for others.
Again, worth talking about.


The setting that changed my life was in Gmail: so login to gmail.com,
open settings / POP3 and iMAP sync (sorry for the labels that might be
somewhat different, Gmail is in French on my account), and check the
options on "when a message is marked as deleted". Just below you will
find another setting to limit the number of emails per folder.  By
default there's no limit, but if you check a limit Gmail offers you 1000
emails per folder at most.  This seems to be a good alternative.  The
remaining (for me!) 11K emails aren't deleted, but Gmail keeps them on
its server and doesn't send them to the client except if you search
(Thunderbird allows to run a full search on the server).


HTH,


Vincent

You know, that doesn’t sound so surprising.  I, to, have over 10 years of emails.  Windows mail (which I’m currently using) told me in no uncertain terms it won’t download more than a year of my emails (fine with me) but I could still search for older emails.  So I would think it might be worth doing that on Thunderbird.  I don’t know if there’s a setting to tell Thunderbird to only sync the last month as you said, and to clean up the 10 years of unnecessary emails and see if that’s better.  I would hope so!

 

Vincent

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: David Csercsics
Sent: Monday, August 26, 2019 12:43 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in Employment

 

I was able to track down the thunderbird slowness to Google's silly

behaviour of archiving mail instead of deleting it from the server when

I deleted it in the client. I'm not sure how to get around this, other

than to go on the web mail and clean out the mail periodically, though I

think telling it to sync only 30 days worth of stuff should get me a lot

of the way there as well. I had something like 8 years of mail synced to

"all mail" locally, so no wonder it'd be slow. Even SSD would be slow

with a 7 gig data chunk like that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was able to track down the thunderbird slowness to Google's silly

behaviour of archiving mail instead of deleting it from the server when

I deleted it in the client. I'm not sure how to get around this, other

than to go on the web mail and clean out the mail periodically, though I

think telling it to sync only 30 days worth of stuff should get me a lot

of the way there as well. I had something like 8 years of mail synced to

"all mail" locally, so no wonder it'd be slow. Even SSD would be slow

with a 7 gig data chunk like that.

Vincent, I observe that you are already using Gmail. That leads to two

points: you must be okay with giving them access to your email, so why not the

big Microsoft overlord? Tongue in cheek of course. The second point is more

relevant: have you considered using the Gmail web interface for your mail? If I

recall correctly, there are at least two modes you can use that in; one of them

might work in a way you enjoy.

Just a thought.

All that said, if you are using a local IMAP client, be it outlook or windows

mail, or anything else, Microsoft or not, the provider shouldn't have any access

to your mail. That is not generally how it works. I imagine there would be

massive outcry among business customers, if it was learned that MS was sucking

in all the mail they transacted using Outlook, especially given Microsoft's

well known policy of "if it passes through our servers, it's our data".

So I very much doubt your concern is valid here.

Luke

  On Sun, 25 Aug 2019,

Vincent Le Goff wrote:

>

> Hi Gene,

>

>

> Thanks for y6our answer.  Hehe, I think Microsoft has enough data on me, giving it my email doesn't sound great.  But yeah, let's imagine they don't keep

> this data!  As I was saying I really can't use Thunderbird much (even writing this somewhat short message is a pain).

>

>

> I've tried eM client today, light and fast, like I wanted, but not accessible as far as I can tell.  So I guess I will need to find WLM somewhere.  But I

> must admit it's a big disappointment to me who places so much on open- source technology, so going from Thunderbird to Microsoft is a downgrade, not in

> terms of feature, but in terms of philosophy, if that makes any sense.

>

>

> Thanks again,

>

>

> Vincent

>

> On 8/25/2019 6:10 PM, Gene wrote:

>       What is wrong with using Windows Live Mail?  And what is wrong with using Microsoft products in general?  Some of the utilities and programs

>       included with Windows are designed to be easy to use and don't have options more advanced or demanding users might want or need.  But a general

>       avoidance of Microsoft products may lead to unnecessary problems or unnecessary time and effort looking for something else that works well. 

>  

> Windows Live Mail is completely accessible.  you can use the old menu version or the newer ribbon version.  You have to get it from someone, because

> Microsoft no longer supports and distributes it. 

> Gene

> ----- Original Message -----

>

> From: Vincent Le Goff

> Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 10:58 AM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: [nvda] A point on email clients

>

> Hi everyone,

>

>

> This has been reported for a few weeks or months and things are getting

> worse, so I'm afraid I'll have to leave the Thunderbird community.  The

> client is getting extremely sluggish.  It behaves well for sighted users

> but the thing is not reporting information to NVDA in less than a few

> seconds for each key press, especially for us unfortunate relying on

> Braille.  Enough is enough. Thunderbird served its purpose but I need a

> fast email client and can't spend 2 hours reading my 100 daily emails

> (yep, I happen to receive lots of emails).

>

>

> But this "ragequit" will pose some problems.  The first, and obvious,

> is: what to use now?  Relying on Microsoft products doesn't sit too

> well, I'm already doing a lot of that, but it seems there aren't so many

> choices.  For awhile I heard about an open-source email client

> specifically created for accessibility, but I can't remember what the

> name was, who created it, and Google can't help me.

>

>

> So the debate is open: let's avoid the flamewar if possible, but what

> are you using?  What would be more fitting with NVDA?  I have a few

> requirements:

>

>

> - I'm running on Windows 10 (64-bit). Can't do without that.

>

> - I have two accounts and possibly three, so I need to have support for

> several email accounts and simple switches between them.

>

> - I need support for iMap, which is basically the only protocol I used

> to retreieve messages.

>

> - Support for simple text and HTML content is obviously a strong bonus.

>

>

> Thanks in advance for your advice!

>

>

> Vincent

>

>

>

>

>

> 

Hi Kelly,

I see the skim reading question has been addressed, and I'll leave others
to answer which screen reader they prefer, but in terms of using NVDA in a
work environment, we certainly do have a lot of users who use NVDA in that
context, both employees and also employers or institutions setting up NVDA
in say, university labs, libraries or other public computers.

For anyone looking into this either as an employer or an employee looking
for information for their workplace, we have a page at
https://www.nvaccess.org/corporate-government/ which answers a lot of
common questions (including the security options within NVDA, and
addressing the (unfounded) concern around the security of open-source
software.

If anyone (or any potential employers) have any lingering concerns, please
do get in touch (or get them in touch) with us - info@... is the
easiest way - and we'd be happy to discuss any concerns.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 9:38 PM kelby carlson <kelbycarlson@...>
wrote:

Hi, everyone,

I hope this isn't too off-topic. I recently heard an argument that NVDA
is
bad for blind prospect's in employment because it is the "dumbed down"
solution. The person arguing this elaborated, saying that NVDA is not
customizable/flexible enough (too chatty"), that it was not able to be
scripted as easily, it didn't work well with as much proprietary
software,
and that it wouldn't be allowed on secure environments due to being open
source.

So my question is this: how many people here use NVDA for work, and is
there a notable dilerence in level of usability with JAWS?

Also, does NVDA have a skim reading feature like JAWS?

--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Web: www.nvaccess.org
Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/
User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>