nvda@nvda.groups.io

Re: Access to Windows 10 Games: Suggestion for compatibility update or add-on for NVDA

Joseph Lee

#98727

Hi Iris, You're welcome.

Yes, it wasn't until recently that Microsoft made improvements to Solitaire Collection in terms of accessibility. Back in say, 2015 (when Windows 10 made its debut), cards and card decks were not labeled properly; rather, they were labeled using a UIA (UI Automation) facility that I haven't even thought of, something Narrator did support then (that facility was called "localized control type", a text representing how screen readers should report what the control is to users but localized for various languages; in Solitaire Collection, cards and card decks were "shown" (presented to screen readers) as an unknown control with the actual card suit and rank seen as a distinct control type, localized to various languages, including, surprisingly enough, United States English; how this is even possible is way beyond the scope of this forum as it touches multilingual user interface). This changed a few weeks ago with the release of Solitaire Collection 4.13, with cards and card decks having actual labels in a form that NVDA can better understand (technical: UIA name property; the internals of this is again beyond the scope of this forum as we need to go into geeky side of UIA support from NVDA).

Although I don't have extensive knowledge of parts of UI Automation and deeper parts of NVDA as several members here, you can count me in as a resident NVDA developer (or used to be as my immediate occupation is a university instructor and a graduate student). And no, my contributions are not as widely applied as say, Tyler Spivey's.

Cheers,

Joseph

Re: Possible Bug with Punctuation/Symbol Pronunciation Dialog - Can others replicate?

Gene

#98726

I thought you were saying that the symbol not being announced was a problem. I'm not sure what you were saying based on your response.

I generally do send messages above those I am responding to. I think there may have been confusion about two discussions being joined together.

Gene

On 8/19/2022 11:47 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Show quoted text

On Fri, Aug 19, 2022 at 12:39 PM, Gene wrote:

The message I was commenting on wasn't yours.
-
But the message you bottom quoted was mine, and it was in response to the message it's now obvious you were responding to. But what you bottom quote should always be assumed to be the primary message you're replying to, and since mine was the "outermost wrapper" I made what is an entirely reasonable presumption.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

~ Vance Packard

Re: Possible Bug with Punctuation/Symbol Pronunciation Dialog - Can others replicate?

Joseph Lee

#98725

Hi,

After performing the steps outlined, I don't hear "tick" or "single quote" (I used the latter as an experiment), nor I hear "semi" or a "colon". Note that I'm using NVDA alpha build with punctuation level set to "some".

In addition to validating what Tyler explained, here's another reason why you may or may not hear "semi" and "colon": visually (and internally), symbols list in punctuation/symbol pronunciation dialog is laid out as a table. In reality, it is a multi-column list view with NVDA recognizing it as a table. The "semi" and "colon" you may or may not hear comes from the way NVDA presents column (cell) information to users, found in document formatting settings panel/Row/column headers checkbox:

If checked, NVDA will gather column/row header text along with actual cell text (see below for internals).
If unchecked, NVDA will just report cell content.

Another possibility is that NVDA is told to pronounce specific symbols regardless of punctuation level. This can be configured on an individual symbol asis from punctuation/symbol pronunciation dialog. Also, don't forget that speech synthesizers can do all sorts of things with symbols, and it is possible for non-English speakers to customize things further or just outright tell the speech synthesizer to pronounce symbols in their native language. Based on the steps noted, I think Tyler's explanation makes more sense (don't forget to check add-ons, too).

As a bonus, here's how NVDA can give you "semi" and "colon" in punctuation/symbol pronunciation dialog:

If NVDA recognizes a multi-column list view such as the one we're discussing, NVDA will ask available accessibility API's to return row contents, including cell contents and headers (the latter if told to report column/row headers). In some cases, NVDA will actually call Windows API functions to retrieve column content and header text from the list view directly. Without going into the bottommost layers, this operation involves memory access and creating a "fake" list view item that NVDA wil use to otain column headers and contents for each column. After this, NVDA will build a "textual" representation of a list view item (row), denoting columns with semicolons and, if told to do so, presetn column header and content separated by a colon.

For example, if a list view has column headers of "name", "age", and "address", with an entry representing a person.. Visually there will be a table with two rows and three columns (first row: headers, second row: first entry). After NVDA asks the list view for its contents, NVDA will say, "name of the person; age: age; address: address field". Same thing is happening with punctuation/symbol pronunciation list view.

Cheers,

Joseph

Re: Math Reading Issues (pronunciation of x^3, y^3)

Brian Vogel

#98724

I'd add to Rui's queries, "Have you tried different synths to see if the behavior carries over?"

This is very often "a synth thing."
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

~ Vance Packard

Re: Possible Bug with Punctuation/Symbol Pronunciation Dialog - Can others replicate?

Brian Vogel

#98723

On Fri, Aug 19, 2022 at 12:39 PM, Gene wrote:

The message I was commenting on wasn't yours.

-
But the message you bottom quoted was mine, and it was in response to the message it's now obvious you were responding to. But what you bottom quote should always be assumed to be the primary message you're replying to, and since mine was the "outermost wrapper" I made what is an entirely reasonable presumption.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

~ Vance Packard

Re: Possible Bug with Punctuation/Symbol Pronunciation Dialog - Can others replicate?

Gene

#98722

I don't recall your message. The message I was commenting on wasn't yours.

Gene

On 8/19/2022 11:34 AM, Joy Holly wrote:

Show quoted text

Sorry about that. I was reading both topics and got confused.

On Fri, Aug 19, 2022, 12:25 PM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

I'm not talking about the bug you reported earlier. Someone wrote a message saying that the punctuation llevel your screen-reader is set to and the level the punctuation is set to in the dialog affects whether it is read. I'm saying that it doesn't. When in the dialog, the punctuation mark is spoken such as tick regardless of the levels. I am simply trying to avoid confusion in that respect.

I know that is true from experience. I have my punctuation level set to none in the general ;punctuation settings but every mark I look at in the Punctuation/symbol pronunciation dialog is spoken in the symbols list.

Gene

On 8/19/2022 11:01 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Fri, Aug 19, 2022 at 10:59 AM, Gene wrote:

but saying the character in the field isn't one.
-
Yes, Gene, it is. Hence the reason I'm asking if others can duplicate. I have no reason to report and ask about something that's just not happening, and where there should be no setting I can touch to change how a program dialog works.

I described, precisely, what's happening for me. Somehow, there's a root cause, and I doubt I'm the only one who's experiencing it, as at least one other person has reported it as replicatible.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

~ Vance Packard

Re: Possible Bug with Punctuation/Symbol Pronunciation Dialog - Can others replicate?

Joy Holly

#98721

Sorry about that. I was reading both topics and got confused.

Show quoted text

On Fri, Aug 19, 2022, 12:25 PM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

I'm not talking about the bug you reported earlier. Someone wrote a message saying that the punctuation llevel your screen-reader is set to and the level the punctuation is set to in the dialog affects whether it is read. I'm saying that it doesn't. When in the dialog, the punctuation mark is spoken such as tick regardless of the levels. I am simply trying to avoid confusion in that respect.

I know that is true from experience. I have my punctuation level set to none in the general ;punctuation settings but every mark I look at in the Punctuation/symbol pronunciation dialog is spoken in the symbols list.

Gene

On 8/19/2022 11:01 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Fri, Aug 19, 2022 at 10:59 AM, Gene wrote:

but saying the character in the field isn't one.
-
Yes, Gene, it is. Hence the reason I'm asking if others can duplicate. I have no reason to report and ask about something that's just not happening, and where there should be no setting I can touch to change how a program dialog works.

I described, precisely, what's happening for me. Somehow, there's a root cause, and I doubt I'm the only one who's experiencing it, as at least one other person has reported it as replicatible.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

~ Vance Packard

Re: Possible Bug with Punctuation/Symbol Pronunciation Dialog - Can others replicate?

Gene

#98720

I'm not talking about the bug you reported earlier. Someone wrote a message saying that the punctuation llevel your screen-reader is set to and the level the punctuation is set to in the dialog affects whether it is read. I'm saying that it doesn't. When in the dialog, the punctuation mark is spoken such as tick regardless of the levels. I am simply trying to avoid confusion in that respect.

I know that is true from experience. I have my punctuation level set to none in the general ;punctuation settings but every mark I look at in the Punctuation/symbol pronunciation dialog is spoken in the symbols list.

Gene

On 8/19/2022 11:01 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Show quoted text

On Fri, Aug 19, 2022 at 10:59 AM, Gene wrote:

but saying the character in the field isn't one.
-
Yes, Gene, it is. Hence the reason I'm asking if others can duplicate. I have no reason to report and ask about something that's just not happening, and where there should be no setting I can touch to change how a program dialog works.

I described, precisely, what's happening for me. Somehow, there's a root cause, and I doubt I'm the only one who's experiencing it, as at least one other person has reported it as replicatible.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

~ Vance Packard

Re: Possible Bug with Punctuation/Symbol Pronunciation Dialog - Can others replicate?

Joy Holly

#98719

I realize after reading the responses that I need to clarify some things! I wrote the math as LaTeX, for lack of a better way to express that here. What NVDA reads in Canvas is MathML, presented in the html on instructional web pages inside the Canvas LMS that also has the MathJax engine installed. The MathML is correct but NVDA is blending together the pronuciation of the "x" with the word "cubed", also using a shot vowel for the "u" so the reading for what should be "x cubed" sounds more like "skubrat" which isn't meaningful. So it recognizes it is math but bungles the pronunciation sometimes, for example when the variable "x" or "y" is followed by an exponent of 3.

Show quoted text

On Fri, Aug 19, 2022, 10:59 AM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

What the message you are responding to is confusing and I'm not sure what cases it is referring to. Whatever it is referring to, it isn't an accurate description of what happens in the dialog. If I work with a character, such as tick, tick is spoken when I am in the character field. That's because, whatever the level setting of a carachter, it is always pronounced when you are working with it as a single character as in a field like this.

I'm not sure what else is being discussed that may be a problem but saying the carachter in the field isn't one.

Gene

On 8/19/2022 9:53 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Fri, Aug 19, 2022 at 01:02 AM, Tyler Spivey wrote:

Your current symbol level is causing the symbols to be ignored. For example, a ' on its own won't be read unless you set your symbol level to all.
You could argue that NVDA should automatically set the symbol level to all and reset it when the dialog closes so it's easier for people to edit their symbols, but that's not how it works.
-
Then, I have to say, someone wasn't thinking. In a dialog such as that one you need to have the symbol/punctuation indicated, always, otherwise you have no freakin' idea of what it is you might be working with (unless you already knew that "tick" was the replacement for a single quote, etc.) You could also believe, with ease, that you're actually working with a character (e.g. semicolon) that you're not working with at all.

I honestly see no reason for that dialog to announce what are hidden separator characters during the editing process that the end user cannot see (if they can literally see) nor need to know about in any way. They're not relevant for what the end user is trying to do.

I'll have to put together a bug report later today, because if all of this behavior doesn't constitute a bug, I don't know what would.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

~ Vance Packard

Re: Math Reading Issues (pronunciation of x^3, y^3)

Rui Fontes

#98718

First things we need to know:

1 - What language?

2 - What synth?

Rui Fontes

Às 16:35 de 19/08/2022, sjoyholly@... escreveu:

Show quoted text

I am building an online Algebra course for a client that is inside the Canvas LMS. We are currently having an accessibility review and NVDA (which with MathPlayer installed reads math better, overall, than JAWS) is having trouble reading cubed variables. For example, "x^3" reads as "skubt" and "y^3" reads as "eekup". (But "x^2" will read "x squared" as expected, and "x^9" will read "x to the ninth" as expected. JAWS can read it, so the coding isn't wrong, but this is throwing an error in our accessibility review. I am aware individual users can change the voice or tweak the reading settings in NVDA. But this is a public education course so we need to present the content to everyone in the best initial state possible. So I am wondering if this misreading of x and y variables is a common bug with NVDA, common enough that most NVDA users will be familiar with these reading anomalies? The testing is being done with NVDA/MathPlayer, in Chrome. Would appreciate any feedback about known NVDA math reading anomalies.

Thank you!

Joy Holly

Re: Possible Bug with Punctuation/Symbol Pronunciation Dialog - Can others replicate?

Brian Vogel

#98717

On Fri, Aug 19, 2022 at 10:59 AM, Gene wrote:

but saying the character in the field isn't one.

-
Yes, Gene, it is. Hence the reason I'm asking if others can duplicate. I have no reason to report and ask about something that's just not happening, and where there should be no setting I can touch to change how a program dialog works.

I described, precisely, what's happening for me. Somehow, there's a root cause, and I doubt I'm the only one who's experiencing it, as at least one other person has reported it as replicatible.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

~ Vance Packard

Math Reading Issues (pronunciation of x^3, y^3)

Joy Holly

#98716

I am building an online Algebra course for a client that is inside the Canvas LMS. We are currently having an accessibility review and NVDA (which with MathPlayer installed reads math better, overall, than JAWS) is having trouble reading cubed variables. For example, "x^3" reads as "skubt" and "y^3" reads as "eekup". (But "x^2" will read "x squared" as expected, and "x^9" will read "x to the ninth" as expected. JAWS can read it, so the coding isn't wrong, but this is throwing an error in our accessibility review. I am aware individual users can change the voice or tweak the reading settings in NVDA. But this is a public education course so we need to present the content to everyone in the best initial state possible. So I am wondering if this misreading of x and y variables is a common bug with NVDA, common enough that most NVDA users will be familiar with these reading anomalies? The testing is being done with NVDA/MathPlayer, in Chrome. Would appreciate any feedback about known NVDA math reading anomalies.

Thank you!

Joy Holly

Re: Access to Windows 10 Games: Suggestion for compatibility update or add-on for NVDA

Iris Finn

#98715

So does that mean if I open the app, NVDA will just read everything right off the bat now? If that's the case, t'd be the best news I've heard in a while! And by the way, thanks so much, Joseph! You've been most helpful! I never thought I'd be able to get much info on this subject!

Warmest regards

Iris!

Show quoted text

On 19 Aug 2022, at 11:01 pm, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:

Hi,

For Solitaire Collection, really nothing - as in you don't need an add-on to play them as NVDA will read card labels and card decks.

As for other games, depends on willingness from game developers to learn about needs of screen reader users.

Cheers,

Joseph

Re: speech delay

Brian Williams

#98714

Hi Gene, thanks for the tips. Installed the app, works brilliantly. Many thanks

Brian

Show quoted text

From: Gene
Sent: 18 August 2022 12:53
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] speech delay

You will probably find both of these suggestions solve the problem.
Here is the link to Silenzio.
http://www.stefankiss.sk/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=112
Thanks so much to Piotr Machacz who let me know about an enterprising developer who wrote a little application to get around the problem. It’s called Silenzio and has been written by Stefan Kiss. This little app can be set to load at start-up and sends blank audio to your audio device. This keeps the device awake, and your screen reader will respond as you need it to.
You’ll find an icon in the system tray, allowing you to tell the app which audio device to send the blank audio to. It will use your Windows default device by default.
Play some audio
If you have the ability, record a few seconds of silence in a sound editor and play it on repeat in the background.

The above is an excerpt from a long podcast transcript of a Jonathan Mosen podcast. If you want to find the full transcript and podcast, do an Internet search for sounds funny mosen

Gene

On 8/18/2022 6:42 AM, Brian Williams wrote:

I have heard of the following problem with speech programs before but can’t remember the solution. Using my laptop, if I stop using the keyboard for several seconds there is a delay when I start typing again. I get the same problem using NVDA or Narrator. Is there a setting within the Screenreader or is it a setting on the computer?
Brian

Re: Possible Bug with Punctuation/Symbol Pronunciation Dialog - Can others replicate?

Gene

#98713

What the message you are responding to is confusing and I'm not sure what cases it is referring to. Whatever it is referring to, it isn't an accurate description of what happens in the dialog. If I work with a character, such as tick, tick is spoken when I am in the character field. That's because, whatever the level setting of a carachter, it is always pronounced when you are working with it as a single character as in a field like this.

I'm not sure what else is being discussed that may be a problem but saying the carachter in the field isn't one.

Gene

On 8/19/2022 9:53 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Show quoted text

On Fri, Aug 19, 2022 at 01:02 AM, Tyler Spivey wrote:

Your current symbol level is causing the symbols to be ignored. For example, a ' on its own won't be read unless you set your symbol level to all.
You could argue that NVDA should automatically set the symbol level to all and reset it when the dialog closes so it's easier for people to edit their symbols, but that's not how it works.
-
Then, I have to say, someone wasn't thinking. In a dialog such as that one you need to have the symbol/punctuation indicated, always, otherwise you have no freakin' idea of what it is you might be working with (unless you already knew that "tick" was the replacement for a single quote, etc.) You could also believe, with ease, that you're actually working with a character (e.g. semicolon) that you're not working with at all.

I honestly see no reason for that dialog to announce what are hidden separator characters during the editing process that the end user cannot see (if they can literally see) nor need to know about in any way. They're not relevant for what the end user is trying to do.

I'll have to put together a bug report later today, because if all of this behavior doesn't constitute a bug, I don't know what would.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

~ Vance Packard

Re: Possible Bug with Punctuation/Symbol Pronunciation Dialog - Can others replicate?

Brian Vogel

#98712

On Fri, Aug 19, 2022 at 01:02 AM, Tyler Spivey wrote:

Your current symbol level is causing the symbols to be ignored. For example, a ' on its own won't be read unless you set your symbol level to all.
You could argue that NVDA should automatically set the symbol level to all and reset it when the dialog closes so it's easier for people to edit their symbols, but that's not how it works.

-
Then, I have to say, someone wasn't thinking. In a dialog such as that one you need to have the symbol/punctuation indicated, always, otherwise you have no freakin' idea of what it is you might be working with (unless you already knew that "tick" was the replacement for a single quote, etc.) You could also believe, with ease, that you're actually working with a character (e.g. semicolon) that you're not working with at all.

I honestly see no reason for that dialog to announce what are hidden separator characters during the editing process that the end user cannot see (if they can literally see) nor need to know about in any way. They're not relevant for what the end user is trying to do.

I'll have to put together a bug report later today, because if all of this behavior doesn't constitute a bug, I don't know what would.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

~ Vance Packard

Re: Possible Bug with Punctuation/Symbol Pronunciation Dialog - Can others replicate?

Brian Vogel

#98711

On Fri, Aug 19, 2022 at 12:58 AM, Quentin Christensen wrote:

Depending on your punctuation settings, it is reading the semi-colons (;) and colons (:), between each element. Which stands out because you aren't expecting them. I don't recall noticing it earlier - when you say you noticed it in 2022.2, do you recall it NOT being there earlier?

It might be worth raising an issue for.

-
Quentin,

I'm one of the "odd birds" that actually likes having the shortest possible replacements when it comes to punctuation/symbols, so I've never touched them prior to experimenting very recently. This issue could have been there forever, but I wouldn't know.

It certainly makes it difficult, I'd say impossible, to know what it is you're doing for certain punctuation.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

The difference between a top-flight creative man and the hack is his ability to express powerful meanings indirectly.

~ Vance Packard

Re: Access to Windows 10 Games: Suggestion for compatibility update or add-on for NVDA

Joseph Lee

#98710

Hi,

For Solitaire Collection, really nothing - as in you don't need an add-on to play them as NVDA will read card labels and card decks.

As for other games, depends on willingness from game developers to learn about needs of screen reader users.

Cheers,

Joseph

Re: Status Bar Keystroke

Gene

#98709

The command used to read the status line. Something changed in Thunderbird and it no longer does. If you have a version of Thunderbird that is perhaps two or three versions old or older, the status line will be read.

JAWS reads the status line in new versions. it would be interesting to know what has changed.

Gene

On 8/19/2022 7:32 AM, Howard Traxler wrote:

Show quoted text

In Thunderbird, NVDA plus end says the last character on the current line.

On 8/19/2022 7:23 AM, Monte Single wrote:

Hi David,

While using nvda, insert+end will give you the status bar.sometimes.

It works well in ms office, word, and likely othe office apps.

It gives no info while using Google Chrome.

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Kingsbury
Sent: August 19, 2022 6:03 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Status Bar Keystroke

Hi all,

I know you can press F6 a few times to get to the Status bar. Does NVDA also have a keystroke combination to reveal it like JAWS has Insert Page Down?

Thanks,

David

Re: Status Bar Keystroke

Gene

#98708

Many browsers don't have status lines. I doubt Chrome does.

Having said that, if the status line isn't in the expected place, the command won't see it.

Gene

On 8/19/2022 7:23 AM, Monte Single wrote:

Show quoted text

Hi David,

While using nvda, insert+end will give you the status bar.sometimes.

It works well in ms office, word, and likely othe office apps.

It gives no info while using Google Chrome.

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Kingsbury
Sent: August 19, 2022 6:03 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Status Bar Keystroke

Hi all,

I know you can press F6 a few times to get to the Status bar. Does NVDA also have a keystroke combination to reveal it like JAWS has Insert Page Down?

Thanks,

David